Straight, Gay or Lying? Bisexuality Revisited - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Astrocloud · 07-05-2005, 02:30 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/05/he...wanted=1&8hpib

Quote:

Straight, Gay or Lying? Bisexuality Revisited

By BENEDICT CAREY
Published: July 5, 2005

Some people are attracted to women; some are attracted to men. And some, if Sigmund Freud, Dr. Alfred Kinsey and millions of self-described bisexuals are to be believed, are drawn to both sexes.

But a new study casts doubt on whether true bisexuality exists, at least in men.

The study, by a team of psychologists in Chicago and Toronto, lends support to those who have long been skeptical that bisexuality is a distinct and stable sexual orientation.

People who claim bisexuality, according to these critics, are usually homosexual, but are ambivalent about their homosexuality or simply closeted. "You're either gay, straight or lying," as some gay men have put it.

In the new study, a team of psychologists directly measured genital arousal patterns in response to images of men and women. The psychologists found that men who identified themselves as bisexual were in fact exclusively aroused by either one sex or the other, usually by other men.

The study is the largest of several small reports suggesting that the estimated 1.7 percent of men who identify themselves as bisexual show physical attraction patterns that differ substantially from their professed desires.

"Research on sexual orientation has been based almost entirely on self-reports, and this is one of the few good studies using physiological measures," said Dr. Lisa Diamond, an associate professor of psychology and gender identity at the University of Utah, who was not involved in the study.

The discrepancy between what is happening in people's minds and what is going on in their bodies, she said, presents a puzzle "that the field now has to crack, and it raises this question about what we mean when we talk about desire."

"We have assumed that everyone means the same thing," she added, "but here we have evidence that that is not the case."

Several other researchers who have seen the study, scheduled to be published in the journal Psychological Science, said it would need to be repeated with larger numbers of bisexual men before clear conclusions could be drawn.

Bisexual desires are sometimes transient and they are still poorly understood. Men and women also appear to differ in the frequency of bisexual attractions. "The last thing you want," said Dr. Randall Sell, an assistant professor of clinical socio-medical sciences at Columbia University, "is for some therapists to see this study and start telling bisexual people that they're wrong, that they're really on their way to homosexuality."

He added, "We don't know nearly enough about sexual orientation and identity" to jump to these conclusions.

In the experiment, psychologists at Northwestern University and the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto used advertisements in gay and alternative newspapers to recruit 101 young adult men. Thirty-three of the men identified themselves as bisexual, 30 as straight and 38 as homosexual.

The researchers asked the men about their sexual desires and rated them on a scale from 0 to 6 on sexual orientation, with 0 to 1 indicating heterosexuality, and 5 to 6 indicating homosexuality. Bisexuality was measured by scores in the middle range.

Seated alone in a laboratory room, the men then watched a series of erotic movies, some involving only women, others involving only men.

Using a sensor to monitor sexual arousal, the researchers found what they expected: gay men showed arousal to images of men and little arousal to images of women, and heterosexual men showed arousal to women but not to men.

But the men in the study who described themselves as bisexual did not have patterns of arousal that were consistent with their stated attraction to men and to women. Instead, about three-quarters of the group had arousal patterns identical to those of gay men; the rest were indistinguishable from heterosexuals.

"Regardless of whether the men were gay, straight or bisexual, they showed about four times more arousal" to one sex or the other, said Gerulf Rieger, a graduate psychology student at Northwestern and the study's lead author.

Although about a third of the men in each group showed no significant arousal watching the movies, their lack of response did not change the overall findings, Mr. Rieger said.

Since at least the middle of the 19th century, behavioral scientists have noted bisexual attraction in men and women and debated its place in the development of sexual identity. Some experts, like Freud, concluded that humans are naturally bisexual. In his landmark sex surveys of the 1940's, Dr. Alfred Kinsey found many married, publicly heterosexual men who reported having had sex with other men.

Males do not represent two discrete populations, heterosexual and homosexual," Dr. Kinsey wrote. "The world is not to be divided into sheep and goats."

By the 1990's, Newsweek had featured bisexuality on its cover, bisexuals had formed advocacy groups and television series like "Sex and the City" had begun exploring bisexual themes.

Yet researchers were unable to produce direct evidence of bisexual arousal patterns in men, said Dr. J. Michael Bailey, a professor of psychology at Northwestern and the new study's senior author.

A 1979 study of 30 men found that those who identified themselves as bisexuals were indistinguishable from homosexuals on measures of arousal. Studies of gay and bisexual men in the 1990's showed that the two groups reported similar numbers of male sexual partners and risky sexual encounters. And a 1994 survey by The Advocate, the gay-oriented newsmagazine, found that, before identifying themselves as gay, 40 percent of gay men had described themselves as bisexual.

"I'm not denying that bisexual behavior exists," said Dr. Bailey, "but I am saying that in men there's no hint that true bisexual arousal exists, and that for men arousal is orientation."

But other researchers - and some self-identified bisexuals - say that the technique used in the study to measure genital arousal is too crude to capture the richness - erotic sensations, affection, admiration - that constitutes sexual attraction.

Social and emotional attraction are very important elements in bisexual attraction, said Dr. Fritz Klein, a sex researcher and the author of "The Bisexual Option."

"To claim on the basis of this study that there's no such thing as male bisexuality is overstepping, it seems to me," said Dr. Gilbert Herdt, director of the National Sexuality Resource Center in San Francisco. "It may be that there is a lot less true male bisexuality than we think, but if that's true then why in the world are there so many movies, novels and TV shows that have this as a theme - is it collective fantasy, merely a projection? I don't think so."

John Campbell, 36, a Web designer in Orange County, Calif., who describes himself as bisexual, also said he was skeptical of the findings.

Mr. Campbell said he had been strongly attracted to both sexes since he was sexually aware, although all his long-term relationships had been with women. "In my case I have been accused of being heterosexual, but I also feel a need for sex with men," he said.

Mr. Campbell rated his erotic attraction to men and women as about 50-50, but his emotional attraction, he said, was 90 to 10 in favor of women. "With men I can get aroused, I just don't feel the fireworks like I do with women," he said.

About 1.5 percent of American women identify themselves bisexual. And bisexuality appears easier to demonstrate in the female sex. A study published last November by the same team of Canadian and American researchers, for example, found that most women who said they were bisexual showed arousal to men and to women.

Although only a small number of women identify themselves as bisexual, Dr. Bailey said, bisexual arousal may for them in fact be the norm.

Researchers have little sense yet of how these differences may affect behavior, or sexual identity. In the mid-1990's, Dr. Diamond recruited a group of 90 women at gay pride parades, academic conferences on gender issues and other venues. About half of the women called themselves lesbians, a third identified as bisexual and the rest claimed no sexual orientation. In follow-up interviews over the last 10 years, Dr. Diamond has found that most of these women have had relationships both with men and women.

"Most of them seem to lean one way or the other, but that doesn't preclude them from having a relationship with the nonpreferred sex," she said. "You may be mostly interested in women but, hey, the guy who delivers the pizza is really hot, and what are you going to do?"

"There's a whole lot of movement and flexibility," Dr. Diamond added. "The fact is, we have very little research in this area, and a lot to learn."

This pretty much sums up what I read in a book on the subject. Women's sexuality is fluid and dynamic whereas mens sexuality is fixed. At the time the author had no real answer to bisexual men other than that they are not as statistically relevent as bisexual women. Look at it like this: women who like other women are -in fact -getting another partner to help with the child rearing. This can be a very positive thing in a harsh climate which requires multiple partners.

On the other hand -there is no real genetic benefit for men to team up. I think that people are always talking about nature vs. nurture -and in the case of male bisexuality I believe it is nurture. Or rather just gay men staying in the closet longer. That's my opinion anyways.

martinguerre · 07-05-2005, 02:59 PM

Quote:

"To claim on the basis of this study that there's no such thing as male bisexuality is overstepping, it seems to me," said Dr. Gilbert Herdt, director of the National Sexuality Resource Center in San Francisco.

Put this front and center. I think it's the most responsible statement in the whole article.

Secondly...genetic rationale for male homosexual attraction is actually pretty well theorized. Extra providers or "uncle" figures who share about 1/4 of the DNA of the involved children can be of genetic benifit.

And this is to Astro. Why do you think that it's okay to title this entry to make a blanket accusation against the male bi community?

Astrocloud · 07-05-2005, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

And this is to Astro. Why do you think that it's okay to title this entry to make a blanket accusation against the male bi community?

Did you read the whole article or just find one little piece of it that you like?

And what "blanket accusation" are you talking about?

ShaniFaye · 07-05-2005, 03:08 PM

Im confused, the study showed people porn....is everbody automatically attracted to someone in porn because of their SEX? I know when I watch porn I very seldom see anyone Im attracted to....most of the guys in porn films make me laugh and wouldnt attract me under any circumstances.

filtherton · 07-05-2005, 03:15 PM

How is it possible to create a study to determine whether a group of people actually exists, when it is already known that such a group actually exists? I don't care about one study. I know for a fact that bisexual men exist. It seems that measuring arousal wouldn't be the most accurate way to determine who someone is going to fuck. I don't get an erection every time i see a picture of a naked woman, does that mean i'm lying when i classify myself as primarily straight, or does that mean that said picture fails to capture what i find arousing in women?

Astrocloud · 07-05-2005, 03:19 PM

Remember that the article said that about 1/3 of all men from each group had no reaction at all to the stimulus. So if you personally aren't getting into the scientists' porn -then you would fall outside the study.

doodlebird · 07-05-2005, 03:39 PM

exactly. one third had no arousal. one third of the total population is statistically too large to ignore. there is something flawed in taking the findings from two thirds and applying them to the entire population.

for example:
two thirds of my neighborhood is white. one third is not. should i generalize about the entire neighborhood based only on the white residents?
no.

interesting study. but it's shown that the methodology needs to be reworked.

Astrocloud · 07-05-2005, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doodlebird

interesting study. but it's shown that the methodology needs to be reworked.

Actually, no.

The scientists are studying the portion of people that they can study... If you were to make the white/black metaphor -there would be something to be gained by studying psychological effects on some people and not others.

Hey, at least they didn't put their heads in a cat scanner.

martinguerre · 07-05-2005, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrocloud

Did you read the whole article or just find one little piece of it that you like?

And what "blanket accusation" are you talking about?

"New Studies suggest that Bi-men are lying"

Am i a liar? Does this article of yours prove it?

And yes. I read the whole thing. Reductionist explanation for what is without a doubt such a complex and varied phenomenon (as any human sexuality is) is simply not good science, nor social practice.

If you have a question about what the nature of male bisexuality is...ask. Do you really think that a single study has more to say than the lived experience of the bi community?

Zephyr66 · 07-05-2005, 05:02 PM

As a bisexual I find this study utterly confusing... I sincerely feel attraction to both sexes. Although I live an entirely heterosexual lifestyle, i doubt that the attraction I feel towards men is just me lying to myself. I am basicly in the same place as John Campbell describes himself in the article, and I am very skeptical of the study.

filtherton · 07-05-2005, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrocloud

Remember that the article said that about 1/3 of all men from each group had no reaction at all to the stimulus. So if you personally aren't getting into the scientists' porn -then you would fall outside the study.

That's not the point. Perhaps one enjoys the look of a woman and the smell of a man. Perhaps a picture of a man is enough to get aroused, but only the prospect of an immediate sexual encounter with a woman is enough to get aroused. This study only confirms that most people aren't bisexual when it comes to porn. This is a far cry from anything resembling evidence that bisexuals don't really exist or are liars.

lurkette · 07-05-2005, 06:11 PM

I think the article rightly points out a lot of the flaws in the study, not to mention interpretation of the study. I thought this sentence was interesting, though:

Quote:

"Regardless of whether the men were gay, straight or bisexual, they showed about four times more arousal" to one sex or the other, said Gerulf Rieger, a graduate psychology student at Northwestern and the study's lead author."

If they're showing four times as much to one or the other, that presumes that they must be showing at least some arousal to the non-preferred sex; I know shit about statistics, but if you're showing 4X=Y, doesn't X have to be nonzero for Y to be nonzero? Doesn't that sort of suggest the old assertion that everyone's bisexual to some extent - even just a leeeetle - rather than that people fall into a strictly binary pattern?

I'd be interested to see what fMRI studies showed - you'd think that would capture a more complex picture than just whether your dick gets hard or not.

FrellingSmeg · 07-05-2005, 06:20 PM

Quote:

"Research on sexual orientation has been based almost entirely on self-reports, and this is one of the few good studies using physiological measures," said Dr. Lisa Diamond

She was my senior thesis advisor.

That's really all I have to contribute.

reiii · 07-05-2005, 07:37 PM

One of my best friend had one of the main researchers on that project in Northwestern as a TA. He said another off shoot of the research was that women showed "general arousal" meaning that women were giving measurable responses to hetro porn, gay porn (both guy on guy, and lesbian), and even video clips of dogs having sex! I guess their equipment is pretty sensitive, because they are definitely not measuring conscious arousal

Ruse · 07-05-2005, 07:46 PM

Martin, its not saying that 100% of bisexual men are really homosexual. Its simply saying that in this study it seems that men are much more arroused by one sex or the other. Dont be offended by it...

No one can tell you what you feel.

martinguerre · 07-05-2005, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruse

Martin, its not saying that 100% of bisexual men are really homosexual. Its simply saying that in this study it seems that men are much more arroused by one sex or the other. Dont be offended by it...

No one can tell you what you feel.

I'm not worried that an article is going to destroy my idenity. I know what i think, feel, and how my sexual idenity is a part of me. Well...i know about as much as the next person does. Which is to say enought for day to day operation and a reasonable certainty, but still leaving enough to think about and post in tilted sexuality from time to time.

What i'm bitching about is that someone feels that its okay to post this article under a title that makes a patently false accusation about an already tread upon minority group. I don't think that should be acceptable to this community. And i'm saying as much. Offended has nothing to do with it. This is about my opinion about what the standards of the community ought to be, and sharing that opinion.

forkies · 07-06-2005, 01:16 AM

i agree with martinguerre, the thread's title is accusatory and judgmental. however, that has nothing to do with the actual study.

my response to the article is that it will just make people think, even more than they already do, that sexuality in males is somehow different than sexuality in females. there is a lot more at work in sexual identity than reporting what you think about yourself then watching porn.

oh well, whatever makes it easier to categorize people, i guess.

Sticky · 07-06-2005, 09:36 AM

It looks to me like the title of this post reflects the title of the article.

Title of Post: New Studies suggest that Bi-men are lying
Title of Article: Straight, Gay or Lying? Bisexuality Revisited

In fact the first few paragraphs of the article are reflected in the title of the post as well.

Quote:

But a new study casts doubt on whether true bisexuality exists, at least in men.

The study, by a team of psychologists in Chicago and Toronto, lends support to those who have long been skeptical that bisexuality is a distinct and stable sexual orientation.

People who claim bisexuality, according to these critics, are usually homosexual, but are ambivalent about their homosexuality or simply closeted. "You're either gay, straight or lying," as some gay men have put it.

Astrocloud is not saying that bisexual men are lying. He is just saying that there is a new study is suggesting that.

I don't believe that Astrocloud is caliming that the article or study are accurate.
I also don't believe that Astrocloud is claiming belief in the article.

I assume that Astrocloud wanted to hear what everyone had to say about the study.

But...Maybe I am misunderstanding the title of the post.

Glory's Sun · 07-06-2005, 09:44 AM

The title isn't an issue to me, the article is. Without going through and restating what most have already said, I find it extremely unfocused and quite stupid (if I may use that word). The study just doesn't make sense. Lurkette sums this up pretty well as she made great points. Stats are just stats. They don't mean shit. Anyone can create a stat tree to reflect whatever they want it to reflect. It's that simple.

Jinn · 07-06-2005, 10:07 AM

The thread title isn't offensive at all!!

"Study suggests men are stupid."
-- SUGGESTS. Offense to this would be from insecurity, nothing more.

Quote:

suggest: imply as a possibility; "The evidence suggests a need for more clarification"

On a side note, suggest looks REALLY wierd after you type it enough times..

I second or fifth the notion that this study really shows nothing more than a correlation (not causation) between porn attraction and percieved sexuality; nothing conclusive, of course.

Astrocloud · 07-06-2005, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

"New Studies suggest that Bi-men are lying"
Am i a liar? Does this article of yours prove it?

Well, actually the article says things like 40% of all men who now identify themselves as gay -used to identify themselves as bi. The lie which they are suggesting is that bi men are lying to themselves. Sorry if this seems hurtful or pretentious -if you can't talk about it without being defensive then perhaps there might be some truth to it.

Quote:

If you have a question about what the nature of male bisexuality is...ask. Do you really think that a single study has more to say than the lived experience of the bi community?

Statements like this indicate that you didn't read the whole article. There was more than one study done. This is not a "single study" -this is the amalgamation of several studies as well as individual observation. If you care to disagree then please disagree with the substance rather than attack me -the messenger.

martinguerre · 07-06-2005, 01:46 PM

New evidence suggests that board member has committed mass murder!

Jinnkai? Tell me that that isn't inflammatory, and i'll buy your thesis. The title is clearly making a statement, and it's not just about fact. It's about framing the issue. It is about taking data about arousal, and making a moral statement concerning it.

Astro: I read the whole article. If you want to parse my grammer and not read my content, that's fine. But what you're doing here is a disservice to the discussion. You don't start with a question. You started with an insulting and inflammatory statement that i don't respect because it has nothing to do with how men actually experience and identify bisexuality. Some of this identification has to do with social pressure, and many men transition in to homosexual idenitification. But there is such a thing as male bisexuality. I'm living it. And if you wanted to know something about it...there are several of us here you could have asked. You didn't.

I'm attacking the messenger for the content that you're responsible for. Also...if you ever think that it's okay to tell me from across the internet what my sexual orientation is again...i will know that you are simply not worth talking to. That sort of armchair pyschology crap is insulting...but mostly to the person who's trying to get away with it.

Astrocloud · 07-06-2005, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

I'm attacking the messenger for the content that you're responsible for. Also...if you ever think that it's okay to tell me from across the internet what my sexual orientation is again...i will know that you are simply not worth talking to. That sort of armchair pyschology crap is insulting...but mostly to the person who's trying to get away with it.

Repeat:

Sorry if this seems hurtful or pretentious -if you can't talk about it without being defensive then perhaps there might be some truth to it.

Jinn · 07-06-2005, 01:59 PM

Inflammatory? Not at all.. it grabs my attention, like any good reporter knows. Half of "how good your story is" is in the title.

For your metaphor:

If I took a survey that said...

[] I have murdered someone today.
[] I haven't murdered someone today.

If one person responded that they HAD been a murderer today, but there had been no homicides, I could have a story title: "Study suggests that people lie about murder!"

Are you certain that Astrocloud isn't on to something?

Quote:

Sorry if this seems hurtful or pretentious -if you can't talk about it without being defensive then perhaps there might be some truth to it.

Anomaly_ · 07-06-2005, 06:15 PM

It would be interesting to see the brain activity taking place through a functional MRI in addition to a tumescence monitor. Recent investigation of female arousal using fMRI analysis has allowed researchers to more objectively establish physiological arousal mechanisms. And on a related note, I would be interested in knowing what percentage of men who identify themselves as bisexual have had a history of sexual abuse. It is my guess that is (proportionally) higher than those who identify exclusively as heterosexual or homosexual.

Concerning the argument above, I don't think anyone has claimed true bisexuality in men is nonexistent. Research just seems to be showing that it is far less common among males. I wouldn't call the evidence conclusive by any means, but it's nothing to get upset about. "Lying" is probably not the write word, though.

cabbit · 07-06-2005, 07:24 PM

I think everyone's Bi its just a matter of how much.

martinguerre · 07-06-2005, 08:40 PM

Lying certainly isn't the right word. Despite claims otherwise, it is a word that carries with it a moral judgement. It implies deceit, or at very least a lack of self-knowledge.

what appears to the the focus of the article is that many men who may later identify as homosexual have a period in their lives in which they identify as bi. instead of focusing on the social pressures and mechanisms that make it hard for men to claim a gay idenity, the rhetoric is on "lying." instead of looking at how this percieved idea of "transition" affects those men who identify as bi for a majority of their lives, the assumption is that some men "haven't got the memo" yet that they are in fact gay.

Gilda · 07-08-2005, 04:39 AM

All the article really established is that men who identify as bi don't tend to respond to lesbian porn. If I'm reading it right, many of the hetero identified men didn't respond to the lesbian porn. To deduce from this that they aren't attracted to women is faulty reasoning. A lot of sexual attraction comes from signals other than visual; scent and touch plays a big part.

Many who aren't in the sexual mainstream go through periods of defining ourselves in different ways as a way of exploring who we are. This does not mean that we are or were lying, either to ourselves, or to others as the statement in the study implies, merely that our perceptions of ourselves can change over time.

StanT · 07-08-2005, 04:58 AM

I think anytime you make generalizations about human sexuality you are going to be wrong. It doesn't lend itself to simplification.

I think lying is a poor choice of words, but it was chosen by the author of the article quoted, reusing it in a forum topic would seen fair.

cyrnel · 07-08-2005, 05:23 AM

Doesn't surprise me at all. Don't men lie more often regarding questions about sex? (Always thought we did.) Don't men also tend to tie their self-worth to the classic father, head of the household image? In my corner of the world, society has always been kinder to gay women than men. It's changing, slowly, but you do not see any male/male affection in public. I'm presuming men in the study have ego's, and whatever effect that has on their social interaction. Isn't the study just picking up on this?

Not suggesting bi men don't exist, I'm just suggesting that the percentages could be skewed by how men and women associate sexual orientation to self-image.

gh0ti · 07-08-2005, 05:38 AM

I have to call bullshit on this article. Since my adolesance I have been attracted to members of both sex. I've had great sex with women, I've had great sex with men. I feel no emotional attachment towards men at all, its just sex. I like lesbians too (had a three some with 2 bi chicks the other night actually

)

I might just be a nympo...

forkies · 07-08-2005, 07:39 AM

gh0ti, you're lying, and i'll use science to prove it

Astrocloud · 07-08-2005, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

All the article really established is that men who identify as bi don't tend to respond to lesbian porn. If I'm reading it right, many of the hetero identified men didn't respond to the lesbian porn. To deduce from this that they aren't attracted to women is faulty reasoning.

Nowhere does it say "Lesbian Porn" it says erotica containing "only women". The images are probably of women masturbating. We won't know the exact details of the study until next month when it is published. And only then if someone here coughs up the money for the article. (Or visits their local college library).

The truth is that many of these models may have been unattractive to the study participants. I suppose that is one way of manipulating the outcome. However, it is interesting to note that at least 2/3 of the respective self proclaming "sexual type" (ie homo, hetero or bi) had a positive reaction to the porn.

martinguerre · 07-08-2005, 06:19 PM

i think this brings up an interesting issue now...

it's widely held that men are more visually cued in terms of sexuality. i think it might be more illustrative to survey the contents of bi men's porn, and what the gender balance is. i've got a "type" when it comes to men, and a type for women, etc... as i suspect most men do in their target gender(s).

just because we're not choosy about gender doesn't mean we're not discerning.

Cervantes · 07-09-2005, 02:14 PM

I have to agree that the title was poorly chosen even if the word was used in the article, it makes a generalization and an accusation that is uncalled for. A better title would be: "Study suggests that fewer men than reported are actually bisexual" or something like that. The title reminds me too much of the type of title you see in the tabloids. I agree with martinguerre in that it isn't really up to par with the usual standard of the TFP.
I'm not attacking you though, everybody makes mistakes and since you might not be able to put yourself in the shoes of a bisexual and experience the blows you recive from both hetro- and homosexuals, it is hard to see why this is such a sensitive subject.

Anyway on the topic at hand: The methods, material used in the study and the results are all questioned with merit. There are several flaws in the studies that makes the results too uncetain to make any serious deduction. The only thing they mannaged to establish is that arousal from visual stimuli is uncertain and that bi-men are more prone to be aroused by male nudity than female, there is, by far, too little (or rather none) material evidence giving merit to the claim that bisexuality doesn't exist.

As said before in the thread there are so many other things that can trigger an attraction than looks, sexual activity or nudity.
Smells, voices, personalities etc. play just as big a role in sexual attraction.

This "study" is also a very hard blow to the closet gays who uses a bisexual identity to "ease" into their official gay identity. If they don't have this "safe" haven they are just left with a lot of stress that is completly unnecesary.

If bisexual is thought to mean closet gay then a lot of people whose sexual identity is true bisexuality is going to have a living hell in social situations where their sexuality plays a part.

Personally I think that this is something that shouldn't be published before we know a lot more. A lot of people is going to get offended and hurt by the premature conclusions that may arise from this article. There are too many misconceptions seen as truth in the world already.

Redlemon · 07-13-2005, 08:51 AM

Here's a semi-related followup newsstory:
Bisexual women "pressured to be lesbians"

Quote:

Women who are bisexual face an increasing amount of pressure to declare themselves as lesbians, according to a new study.

And bisexuals continue to feel their sexuality is a stigma, the study claims, in comparison to gay men and lesbians.

The findings, presented at the British Psychological Society’s Psychology of Women Section Conference, point to the need for more women-specific health promotional projects.

They also suggest the need for more inclusivity for bisexuals in the gay community.

Conducted by Patricia Hudson, the study reveals through interviews with bisexual women that they find their sexuality - and its perception - "challenging".

They also believe that neither heterosexual or gay people are understanding of them and feel pressure from both groups to define their sexuality more precisely.

Hudson says health workers need to recognise the diversity of sexual orientation, and encourage bisexual people to fight against the perceived stigma.

“The onus is on professional and academic psychologists to recognise that enduring bisexual identities do exist, and to ensure that they challenge the stigma that so often renders bisexual identities invisible or portrays them in negative ways,” she said.

She said that ongoing support for bisexual women often led to higher self-esteem.

“Despite widespread experiences of prejudice and stigma, interviewees found that their bisexual identity offered the opportunity for enhanced self esteem and the possibility of engaging in enriching relationships,” she added.

Bisexuality has recently been in the news, after North American scientists said the orientation did not exist.

The Chicago and Toronto researchers studied gay, straight and bisexual men and found that those who described themselves as bisexual were not truly attracted to both men and women.

"Regardless of whether the men were gay, straight or bisexual, they showed about four times more arousal to one sex or the other," the lead researcher said.

Ustwo · 07-13-2005, 09:01 AM

While there is wiggle room in design, and you could claim that perhaps bisexual men do not find lesbian porn stimulating but they do find male-male porn stimulating (and I think this is a bit of a reach, as 'straight' bi ment find it stimulating but they do not get stimulated by the male-male porn), I do not find the results surprising.

I've always felt that male bisexuality was more of a learned response, and that they were either gay or straight.

On the other hand I do believe that female bisexuality is quite real and I would like to see how a similar study worked on them. Part of the problem would be that while men are known for being easily, visually stimulated, the same does not apply for most women so the study would have to have a different design.

Edit: Opps I didn't read the last bit of the article, and it seems they 'agree' with my bisexuality in women theory. 1.5% bisexual is a TAD low though

martinguerre · 07-13-2005, 10:11 AM

redlemon...i think that article has a lot of good points. As Hudson notes, external support of the person-feeling at home in community, etc, has a lot to do with their well being. i entirely agree with her statement:

“The onus is on professional and academic psychologists to recognise that enduring bisexual identities do exist, and to ensure that they challenge the stigma that so often renders bisexual identities invisible or portrays them in negative ways,” she said.

perhaps the original article researchers should release the standards at which they think that they would have "proved" biaffective orientations did exist. Exactly even amounts of arousal? 45/55? 70/30? Did other gender specific stimuli provide arousal? If so, in what ratio?

I've said much of this before, but everytime i re-read the original study, the more the design strikes me as really incomplete.

Ustwo · 07-13-2005, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

All the article really established is that men who identify as bi don't tend to respond to lesbian porn. If I'm reading it right, many of the hetero identified men didn't respond to the lesbian porn. To deduce from this that they aren't attracted to women is faulty reasoning. A lot of sexual attraction comes from signals other than visual; scent and touch plays a big part.

Many who aren't in the sexual mainstream go through periods of defining ourselves in different ways as a way of exploring who we are. This does not mean that we are or were lying, either to ourselves, or to others as the statement in the study implies, merely that our perceptions of ourselves can change over time.

I don't think the study implies lying, and in fact it fits in very well with what you say. These men do not know what they want (their animal brain does) and perhaps they are exploring and comming to grips with what they are. I find it telling that 40% of all gay men described themselves as bisexual at some point.

Cervantes · 07-13-2005, 10:57 AM

It seems that this thread has turned into a bi-bashing thread. None of the bisexuals I know is fully 50-50, that doesn't mean that they aren't bisexual or that bisexuality is a lie.

07-05-2005, 03:08 PM	#4 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Im confused, the study showed people porn....is everbody automatically attracted to someone in porn because of their SEX? I know when I watch porn I very seldom see anyone Im attracted to....most of the guys in porn films make me laugh and wouldnt attract me under any circumstances. __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

07-05-2005, 03:39 PM	#7 (permalink)
doodlebird pío pío Location: on a branch about to break	exactly. one third had no arousal. one third of the total population is statistically too large to ignore. there is something flawed in taking the findings from two thirds and applying them to the entire population. for example: two thirds of my neighborhood is white. one third is not. should i generalize about the entire neighborhood based only on the white residents? no. interesting study. but it's shown that the methodology needs to be reworked. __________________ xoxo doodle

07-05-2005, 07:37 PM	#14 (permalink)
reiii unstuck in time Location: Nashville/D.C.	One of my best friend had one of the main researchers on that project in Northwestern as a TA. He said another off shoot of the research was that women showed "general arousal" meaning that women were giving measurable responses to hetro porn, gay porn (both guy on guy, and lesbian), and even video clips of dogs having sex! I guess their equipment is pretty sensitive, because they are definitely not measuring conscious arousal __________________ "Jombe? The chocolate icing" -hedonism bot

07-06-2005, 01:46 PM	#22 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	New evidence suggests that board member has committed mass murder! Jinnkai? Tell me that that isn't inflammatory, and i'll buy your thesis. The title is clearly making a statement, and it's not just about fact. It's about framing the issue. It is about taking data about arousal, and making a moral statement concerning it. Astro: I read the whole article. If you want to parse my grammer and not read my content, that's fine. But what you're doing here is a disservice to the discussion. You don't start with a question. You started with an insulting and inflammatory statement that i don't respect because it has nothing to do with how men actually experience and identify bisexuality. Some of this identification has to do with social pressure, and many men transition in to homosexual idenitification. But there is such a thing as male bisexuality. I'm living it. And if you wanted to know something about it...there are several of us here you could have asked. You didn't. I'm attacking the messenger for the content that you're responsible for. Also...if you ever think that it's okay to tell me from across the internet what my sexual orientation is again...i will know that you are simply not worth talking to. That sort of armchair pyschology crap is insulting...but mostly to the person who's trying to get away with it. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

07-06-2005, 08:40 PM	#27 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	Lying certainly isn't the right word. Despite claims otherwise, it is a word that carries with it a moral judgement. It implies deceit, or at very least a lack of self-knowledge. what appears to the the focus of the article is that many men who may later identify as homosexual have a period in their lives in which they identify as bi. instead of focusing on the social pressures and mechanisms that make it hard for men to claim a gay idenity, the rhetoric is on "lying." instead of looking at how this percieved idea of "transition" affects those men who identify as bi for a majority of their lives, the assumption is that some men "haven't got the memo" yet that they are in fact gay. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

07-05-2005, 03:15 PM	#5 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	How is it possible to create a study to determine whether a group of people actually exists, when it is already known that such a group actually exists? I don't care about one study. I know for a fact that bisexual men exist. It seems that measuring arousal wouldn't be the most accurate way to determine who someone is going to fuck. I don't get an erection every time i see a picture of a naked woman, does that mean i'm lying when i classify myself as primarily straight, or does that mean that said picture fails to capture what i find arousing in women?

07-05-2005, 03:19 PM	#6 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	Remember that the article said that about 1/3 of all men from each group had no reaction at all to the stimulus. So if you personally aren't getting into the scientists' porn -then you would fall outside the study.

07-05-2005, 05:02 PM	#10 (permalink)
Zephyr66 My custom title's the shit! Location: Canada	As a bisexual I find this study utterly confusing... I sincerely feel attraction to both sexes. Although I live an entirely heterosexual lifestyle, i doubt that the attraction I feel towards men is just me lying to myself. I am basicly in the same place as John Campbell describes himself in the article, and I am very skeptical of the study.

07-05-2005, 07:46 PM	#15 (permalink)
Ruse Crazy	Martin, its not saying that 100% of bisexual men are really homosexual. Its simply saying that in this study it seems that men are much more arroused by one sex or the other. Dont be offended by it... No one can tell you what you feel.

07-06-2005, 01:16 AM	#17 (permalink)
forkies Tilted	i agree with martinguerre, the thread's title is accusatory and judgmental. however, that has nothing to do with the actual study. my response to the article is that it will just make people think, even more than they already do, that sexuality in males is somehow different than sexuality in females. there is a lot more at work in sexual identity than reporting what you think about yourself then watching porn. oh well, whatever makes it easier to categorize people, i guess.

07-06-2005, 09:44 AM	#19 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	The title isn't an issue to me, the article is. Without going through and restating what most have already said, I find it extremely unfocused and quite stupid (if I may use that word). The study just doesn't make sense. Lurkette sums this up pretty well as she made great points. Stats are just stats. They don't mean shit. Anyone can create a stat tree to reflect whatever they want it to reflect. It's that simple.

07-06-2005, 06:15 PM	#25 (permalink)
Anomaly_ Insane	It would be interesting to see the brain activity taking place through a functional MRI in addition to a tumescence monitor. Recent investigation of female arousal using fMRI analysis has allowed researchers to more objectively establish physiological arousal mechanisms. And on a related note, I would be interested in knowing what percentage of men who identify themselves as bisexual have had a history of sexual abuse. It is my guess that is (proportionally) higher than those who identify exclusively as heterosexual or homosexual. Concerning the argument above, I don't think anyone has claimed true bisexuality in men is nonexistent. Research just seems to be showing that it is far less common among males. I wouldn't call the evidence conclusive by any means, but it's nothing to get upset about. "Lying" is probably not the write word, though.

07-06-2005, 07:24 PM	#26 (permalink)
cabbit Upright Location: Riverdale IL	I think everyone's Bi its just a matter of how much.

07-08-2005, 04:39 AM	#28 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	All the article really established is that men who identify as bi don't tend to respond to lesbian porn. If I'm reading it right, many of the hetero identified men didn't respond to the lesbian porn. To deduce from this that they aren't attracted to women is faulty reasoning. A lot of sexual attraction comes from signals other than visual; scent and touch plays a big part. Many who aren't in the sexual mainstream go through periods of defining ourselves in different ways as a way of exploring who we are. This does not mean that we are or were lying, either to ourselves, or to others as the statement in the study implies, merely that our perceptions of ourselves can change over time. __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert

07-08-2005, 04:58 AM	#29 (permalink)
StanT © Location: Colorado	I think anytime you make generalizations about human sexuality you are going to be wrong. It doesn't lend itself to simplification. I think lying is a poor choice of words, but it was chosen by the author of the article quoted, reusing it in a forum topic would seen fair.

07-08-2005, 05:23 AM	#30 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Doesn't surprise me at all. Don't men lie more often regarding questions about sex? (Always thought we did.) Don't men also tend to tie their self-worth to the classic father, head of the household image? In my corner of the world, society has always been kinder to gay women than men. It's changing, slowly, but you do not see any male/male affection in public. I'm presuming men in the study have ego's, and whatever effect that has on their social interaction. Isn't the study just picking up on this? Not suggesting bi men don't exist, I'm just suggesting that the percentages could be skewed by how men and women associate sexual orientation to self-image. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195 Last edited by cyrnel; 07-08-2005 at 05:27 AM..

07-08-2005, 05:38 AM	#31 (permalink)
gh0ti Crazy	I have to call bullshit on this article. Since my adolesance I have been attracted to members of both sex. I've had great sex with women, I've had great sex with men. I feel no emotional attachment towards men at all, its just sex. I like lesbians too (had a three some with 2 bi chicks the other night actually ) I might just be a nympo... __________________ I ain't often right but I've never been wrong It seldom turns out the way it does in the song Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right

07-08-2005, 07:39 AM	#32 (permalink)
forkies Tilted	gh0ti, you're lying, and i'll use science to prove it

07-08-2005, 06:19 PM	#34 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	i think this brings up an interesting issue now... it's widely held that men are more visually cued in terms of sexuality. i think it might be more illustrative to survey the contents of bi men's porn, and what the gender balance is. i've got a "type" when it comes to men, and a type for women, etc... as i suspect most men do in their target gender(s). just because we're not choosy about gender doesn't mean we're not discerning. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

07-09-2005, 02:14 PM	#35 (permalink)
Cervantes Psycho Location: Above you	I have to agree that the title was poorly chosen even if the word was used in the article, it makes a generalization and an accusation that is uncalled for. A better title would be: "Study suggests that fewer men than reported are actually bisexual" or something like that. The title reminds me too much of the type of title you see in the tabloids. I agree with martinguerre in that it isn't really up to par with the usual standard of the TFP. I'm not attacking you though, everybody makes mistakes and since you might not be able to put yourself in the shoes of a bisexual and experience the blows you recive from both hetro- and homosexuals, it is hard to see why this is such a sensitive subject. Anyway on the topic at hand: The methods, material used in the study and the results are all questioned with merit. There are several flaws in the studies that makes the results too uncetain to make any serious deduction. The only thing they mannaged to establish is that arousal from visual stimuli is uncertain and that bi-men are more prone to be aroused by male nudity than female, there is, by far, too little (or rather none) material evidence giving merit to the claim that bisexuality doesn't exist. As said before in the thread there are so many other things that can trigger an attraction than looks, sexual activity or nudity. Smells, voices, personalities etc. play just as big a role in sexual attraction. This "study" is also a very hard blow to the closet gays who uses a bisexual identity to "ease" into their official gay identity. If they don't have this "safe" haven they are just left with a lot of stress that is completly unnecesary. If bisexual is thought to mean closet gay then a lot of people whose sexual identity is true bisexuality is going to have a living hell in social situations where their sexuality plays a part. Personally I think that this is something that shouldn't be published before we know a lot more. A lot of people is going to get offended and hurt by the premature conclusions that may arise from this article. There are too many misconceptions seen as truth in the world already. __________________ - "Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.." - "Religions take everything that your DNA naturally wants to do to survive and pro-create and makes it wrong." - "There is only one absolute truth and that is that there is only one absolute truth."

07-13-2005, 09:01 AM	#37 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	While there is wiggle room in design, and you could claim that perhaps bisexual men do not find lesbian porn stimulating but they do find male-male porn stimulating (and I think this is a bit of a reach, as 'straight' bi ment find it stimulating but they do not get stimulated by the male-male porn), I do not find the results surprising. I've always felt that male bisexuality was more of a learned response, and that they were either gay or straight. On the other hand I do believe that female bisexuality is quite real and I would like to see how a similar study worked on them. Part of the problem would be that while men are known for being easily, visually stimulated, the same does not apply for most women so the study would have to have a different design. Edit: Opps I didn't read the last bit of the article, and it seems they 'agree' with my bisexuality in women theory. 1.5% bisexual is a TAD low though __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 07-13-2005 at 09:06 AM..

07-13-2005, 10:11 AM	#38 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	redlemon...i think that article has a lot of good points. As Hudson notes, external support of the person-feeling at home in community, etc, has a lot to do with their well being. i entirely agree with her statement: “The onus is on professional and academic psychologists to recognise that enduring bisexual identities do exist, and to ensure that they challenge the stigma that so often renders bisexual identities invisible or portrays them in negative ways,” she said. perhaps the original article researchers should release the standards at which they think that they would have "proved" biaffective orientations did exist. Exactly even amounts of arousal? 45/55? 70/30? Did other gender specific stimuli provide arousal? If so, in what ratio? I've said much of this before, but everytime i re-read the original study, the more the design strikes me as really incomplete. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

07-13-2005, 10:57 AM	#40 (permalink)
Cervantes Psycho Location: Above you	It seems that this thread has turned into a bi-bashing thread. None of the bisexuals I know is fully 50-50, that doesn't mean that they aren't bisexual or that bisexuality is a lie. __________________ - "Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.." - "Religions take everything that your DNA naturally wants to do to survive and pro-create and makes it wrong." - "There is only one absolute truth and that is that there is only one absolute truth."