Grasshopper Green

Ok, I searched with several keywords and didn't find this specific thread, so please forgive me if I somehow missed it. Also, if it should need to be moved to philosophy, again I apologize.

Anyway, I was at work thinking about this today. Do you think bisexuality is mostly choice? The reason I was thinking about this is because hubby and I have engaged in "soft swinging" in the past, part of which was me making out and touching another woman. Several years ago I would never have considered doing this, I considered myself "straight" and nothing but, but as I've gotten older and hubby and I have opened up more sexually and I've become more open to things that I may not have been in my younger years. I enjoyed the encounter quite a bit and would be interested in similar encounters in the future.

I have noticed that many more women than men admit to being bisexual; I don't know if this is due to society or from a long ago instinctual thing. A lot of animals have a male with many females and all of the females help take care of the young; in some "primitive" human societies similar things occur. A man may have several wives, all of whom take care of the children, and to me it would seem natural to form strong bonds, perhaps even sexual ones, with these other women. What do you think?

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duck0987

I think the issue is the social stigmas attached to bisexuality. Basically, 2 women = hot, 2 guys = not. I don't condone the stereotype, just commenting on it. If we look back in the not too distant past the Greeks were open about male bisexuality, the Judeo-Christian damnation of such behavior is what has pushed this activity into the realm of the taboo.

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Willravel

Not all gay people are born gay. I've seen people go back and fourth a number of times, but that contradicts the theory that "gay" is brought over on a chromosome. Therefore, certian gay people may be gay for reasons other than biological. Some people might by gay as a way to deal with certian social pressures and rules that they do not follow. Women, as an example, are certianally more likely on the whole than men to be open to trying a homosexual experience if they are straight by nature. This almost certianally has to do with the developmental process of women being more towards healthy attitudes towards sex. Little girls are taught that sex is special, little boys are told to stop beating off (it's not the case always, but it is the norm).

Because women have to take care of young (as a part of inate behavior, not that women should stay home out of some biological obligation, do what makes you happy) they are more proned to being empathic. This natural heightened empathy creates ease when dealing with other people that does not come as naturally for men. This translates to many social areas, including sexuality.

It is quite clever to draw an association between the empathy and polygamy. Obviously there are very few cases of polygamy as a part of a society that bonds several emn to one woman. It is logical to assume that there is a reason that multiple female polygamy is the norm (in polygamy, not overall). I think that the female empathetic assiciation to sexuality could be a good explaination for this. I remember reading soemthing similar somewhere, I'll let you know if I can find the book.

Excelent post, Medusa.

martinguerre

hmm... i attend a discussion group/idenity collective/whathave you with other people who idenitify as bi. nobody would say they're making a choice....and that's not to say a person with a more fluid sexual idenity can't change the expressions they exhibit, but i think if a given person gets off with contact with a person of the same gender... i'm not sure that's by choice.

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Willravel

I can only speculate. I wish I could say I had first had knowledge of the experience, but I simply don't. Someone who is bisexual certianally would be the one to ask for sure.

Gilda

Women certainly seem to be more fluid in their sexuality. I had only had sexual relationships with men the first time I experimented with another woman. I had certainly looked at other women, and looking back now I realize it was with more than aesthetic appreciation, but it was a part of my sexuality I had become quite skilled at repressing at the time.

None of the relationships with men had ever been fulfilling. A couple of the guys had been jerks, but the last man I had a relationship with was truly a great catch, just the guy most women think they want. He was a successful young businessman, he cared about me, he was gentle when we made love, and thoughtful when we weren't. My girlfriends were jealous. And it didn't work out. I enjoyed the attention and the companionship, and could tolerate the sex, but I always preferred to give him a blow job rather than have intercourse; it was quicker, it made him happy, and we didn't have to deal with the issue of my needs.

The problem was that no matter how attentive he was, how gentle and caring, no matter how much time we spent, I didn't get anything out of the sex other than the vicarious pleasure of pleasing him, and as I said, I could do that much more quickly and effectively with a blow job. I became quite a talented cocksucker.

And I probably could have been content that way, giving him a daily blow-job in exchange for his companionship and support, with just enough sex to keep him out of other women's beds. I'd never have been happy with the sex part, but I could have been satisfied for quite some time with just the social part of the relationship.

But he grew apart from me. He needed sexual intimacy I wasn't able to give him, and I didn't know why I wasn't able to enjoy sex, but it just didn't do much for me, despite his being a skilled and gentle lover.

My "experiment" with homosexuality occurred shortly after that. I'd had that series of unfulfilling sexual relationships with men, and one of those things I'd put on my list of things I needed to do before I reached 30 was to try sex with another woman, and I met another woman who was bi-curious also. We "experimented" with each other, and I found out why I wasn't able to connect on a sexual level with men. It's not how I was wired. The word "experiment" is in quotes here because, for me, that's not what it turned out to be. My partner tired of it quickly; for her, it was like my relationships with men. It was tolerable but not what she needed. I, on the other hand, had made a discovery about myself. This was what I needed, another woman. Whatever it is in us that makes us who we are sexually was awakened in me in that relationship.

I was very lucky to have found my SO in my next relationship. She's always been sure of her status, at least from the time she understood sexuality, and it's been my great fortune that she's as gentle and caring with me as my last male lover was, and I've found satisfaction and fulfillment with her that I truly don't think would be possible with any man.

So, is it a choice on my part? I don't see how it could be. I did everything I could to choose heterosexuality, and it didn't work. Am I bi-sexual? Perhaps, but if I am, it's with a very strong bias towards the homosexual end of the scale. I think of myself as a lesbian with a tolerance for certain heterosexual activities. We've talked about possibly having a threesome some day. She's not interested in any sexual contact with a man, but wouldn't mind seeing me giving a man a blow job, which is something I think I'd still enjoy if it was the right man. And I doubt we'd have much difficulty finding takers.

Hampshire

i think being bi-sexual is more of an experimental thing. People who admit that they are , are usually people who are very open to new ideas and want to try new things

kramus

I think sexuality is mostly a result of personal preference, influenced in a great part by the circumstances that the sexual person finds themselves in. A sexual person who engages in prison sex for the release/companionship and then when back to the outside world engages in exclusively heterosexual relationships - that person would be bi or gay only because of circumstance. The key phrase I think would be being sexual in the context you find yourself, and if you find yourself in a pure stag or pure doe environment and (voluntarily) express your sexuality with the available people I'm not sure that any term other than circumstantial homosexuality would be proper.

Now a person who makes a bi or gay choice in an open choice environment is expressing more a preference then making a choice limited by circumstance and the desire for human contact.

When I see women with women I understand it because I like women so much that it is obvious to me why a woman would feel the same way. Guys on guys is just kinda creepy and wrong to me, but as long as homo males aren't being aggressive or uncool then let it be.

I wouldn't want to be part of an MMF because the olfactory cues would be wrong, the sounds and the sights would be a turn-off, and the close proximity of what an internal part of me would read as "competitor" would shut off the sex part and just leave me feeling f*ed up and aggressive.

The FFM scene - if a no pressure situation did arise and I could get through all the performance anxiety stuff - would be fun because it would be extended cuddle/foreplay with lots of visually exciting elements (key for a guy) and an occasional break for sex. Yum.

I don't know if I answered the original question, but then at least you have a bit more grist for the mill, eh?

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martinguerre

Whoa. I really wouldn't include prison in this discussion. While i'm sure consensual acts do occur, the reality is that prison sex is virtually synomous with prison rape. Stop Prison Rape Stop Prison Rape is a organization dedicated to ending sexual violence and the rape culture that permates prisons-it's become a tool of prisoner control and a part of the cycle of violence of the prison system.

Seriously...don't compare consensual bisexuality/questioning/gender queer sex with a culture of rape. Please...

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marco

good posts abound in this thread. and I can only speak about my own experience. I have recently decided (after several years of 'infrequent experimentation') that I am a bi guy. but, I do have a bias towards women. for me, the only choice I've had is whether or not I act on my bisexual feelings. I certainly didn't choose the feelings and don't think anyone could. now, choosing to physically express that sexuality is a choice.

that's all I got for now.

little_tippler

I think a lot of people say they're bi because it sounds "cool". People use the word bisexual loosely sometimes to say for example, I'm interested in experimenting, or to show that they are wild in bed because they say that. I think that's lame. I think real bisexuals didn't choose to be, they just feel that way. I suppose some people will toy with the idea, because they have bisexual feelings of some sort, and eventually "decide"/"realize" they really are bisexual. But I wouldn't call that a choice.

I'd say the reason more women will admit to being bi is definitely society, because two girls getting it on is sexy to men, but the other way round isn't really, it's kind of a taboo, in modern society anyway.

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Jesus Pimp

I personally think that everyone out there has the potential to be bisexual. If our society was more open non-heteros then more and more people would come out or even practice it.

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Sage

If you read a little closer, he actually said "A sexual person who engages in prison sex for the release/companionship" which is TOTALLY different than saying that the person was raped. kramus was saying that a man might have sex with another man in prision because they desire the good things that come with sex. Have you ever been in prison martinguerre? Do you KNOW that all sex that happens in prison is rape, no matter what the two parties say? Don't be so quick to make decisions about things you don't know about firsthand. $.02


Anyway, I think part of the issue with this discussion is we haven't nailed down what it means to be bisexual and what it means to be bicurious. I think bisexual means you form sexual relationships with men and women, not preferring one over the other, having many of both genders over the course of a lifetime. To me, if you're a woman who identifies as bisexual, then meet another woman and get married to that woman, excluding all others for the rest of your life, you're no longer bisexual, you're a lesbian, because you have committed yourself to an exclusively lesbian relationship. However, if you marry another woman, then you continue to have relationships with other men (and/or women) then you'd still be bisexual in my book.

Bicurious is something I'd classify myself as, because I have been with men exclusively, and am now happily married to Martel, but I have recently (happily) discovered that I'm attracted to women and wouldn't mind having a healthy, sexual encounter with another woman with Martel at the same time. This would fall into the category of a FFM threesome, and I would call that bicurious because I would be expierementing with another woman but in the context of my own hetrosexual marriage.

Really, tho, what does it matter? I agree with what has been said earlier- if people weren't so freaking uptight about sex, I'd imagine a LOT more people would say they were bisexual or bicurious!

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Grasshopper Green

Sage, you got to a point that I really didn't know how to put into words. I guess I would consider myself bicurious as well. If anything ever happened between myself and hubby, I doubt I would have a relationship with a woman. However, like I said, I have had a sexual encounter with a woman and liked it. I guess it just still seems to me that there is a certain innateness (for lack of a better word!) of women being bicurious and not men. I've met gay men, gay women, and bisexual women, but never a bisexual male (and thank you marco, for your input!!!) I'm really trying not to offend anyone by putting "labels" on others; I have no problem with anyones sexual preferences, I guess I am just trying to better understand my own, since most of this is pretty new to me.

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CodyMead

i think being bi-sexual is more of an experimental thing. People who admit that they are , are usually people who are very open to new ideas and want to try new things

Gilda

Medusa99: Labels all by themselves aren't bad, it's only when the label is used as an excuse for discrimination that harm is done. I think of myself as a lesbian, but if you wanted to look at my previous post and say that a woman who enjoys performing oral sex on a man must be bisexual, I'd have no problem with that, as it certainly makes sense. Not every situation is so cut and dried as to fit one convenient label.

Sage: Well said in your second paragraph.

Aladdin Sane

In the public arena, sexual issues have become so politicized it's difficult to say what one really thinks. But because this is the TFP, I will chance it.

Here's what I believe: Bisexuality doesn't exist. Not in the same sense that heterosexuality or homosexuality exists. A true bisexual would be equally attracted to both sexes. This person could just as easily form a deep and committed relationship with either sex. In reality, people lean one way or the other. Some of the posts above confirm this.

So-called bisexuality results from one of three things.

One, it is the gateway to homosexuality. It is the experiment, forced or otherwise, that wires the brain for homosexuality. It is a temporary stage on the way to homosexuality.

Two, it is the nom de guerre for those poor souls who are "confused by their sexuality" when they experience homoerotic pleasure. Not yet accepting of their own homosexuality and its concequences, they refer to themselves as bisexual.

Three, "bisexuality" is experimentation by sexually free individuals. These folks do it for the rush, the fun, the pleasure, but at the end of the day, they are still heterosexual.

As a kid, I fit into category three. I experimented with my guy friends, but it was only because I didn't know any girls at that time who would experiment with me. There was a group of us who did sexual stuff with one another, and it never occurred to us that we were gay. We just thought it felt good.

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webfiend

Ah, the muddy muddy waters of sexual identity

The stuff I've got may only be true for my part of the world. Maybe even just my part of town. Sexual values vary profoundly even from neighborhood to neighborhood. Try to bear that in mind when interpreting the opinions and experiences of other people.

Many people identify themselves at each end of the spectrum - exclusively straight or exclusively gay. They often view the other end as wrong or at least mildly perplexing. I guess that's okay. Works for them. Unfortunately, these people also tend to be very hostile towards those who don't identify themselves as straight or gay, accusing them of everything from "straddling the fence" or "being trendy" to being completely indiscriminate sluts.

Okay. Some folks are straddling the fence as they try to figure out whether they like men or women more. Others are being trendy, I suppose, because for some reason they got it into their heads that being bisexual doubles your chances of getting a date on Saturday night. (Sadly, the evidence suggests otherwise.)

And, of course, some people are just indiscriminate sluts, bless their filthy minds.

But it's a whole spectrum, not just a few neat categories. When I was younger I was straight - no, bisexual - no, bicurious - no, straight - no, bisexual - no, mostly straight but there was that one time - no, two times - no, bicurious - etcetera.

As I get older, I define myself less and less by my sexuality. It's just not an important part of my public persona. I've come to the conclusion that I wasted a lot of mental energy and anxiety thinking I had to be something, when it really had no bearing on how well I do my job or how supportive I am as a friend. I've been in a relationship with a woman for about six years now. Our relationship is the most wonderful thing in the world except when it's not, and any folks who have been together for a while know exactly what I mean

Anyways, I'm in a lasting relationship with a woman, but I don't consider myself straight. I can't picture myself in a lasting relationship with a man - not that it's impossible, I just can't picture it - but I don't consider myself straight. I love beautiful women. I love handsome men. I notice the women a lot more than I notice the men, but I do notice the men. In the words of my girlfriend, that makes me "straight ... ish". So my sexual preference is "straight ... ish", but my chosen sexual identity is fairly private. It's not something I feel that the world needs to know as I'm walking down the street to get bread and milk.

So ... choice. Hmm ...

I think your sexual preference is a mix of genetics, environment (family as well as peer), and circumstance, with a heavy dose of social norms and a light sprinkling of plain old dumb luck. I don't really think that you have a whole lot of choice in what sort of sex you prefer or what sort of people you prefer to have it with. Or if you do have a choice, it's a choice you made before you were really aware of it.

Your sexual identity, on the other hand, is completely up to you. That's the identity you share with the outside world, with rainbow flags on one side and "girls on trampolines" on the other. Make whatever choice you like, but kindly remember that what you have chosen is the only possibility in the world. It isn't.

Now, I should get back to work. Does anybody need this soapbox?

martinguerre

I'm not sure why you think that becuase of your particular experience you can claim that "true" bisexuals don't exist. and if a man tended to look at men just a little more than women...he's actually gay? Wtf? 51%/49%? It's just makes no sense to me to talk that way.

i consider myself bi becuase gender is doesn't tend to factor in my decisions of if i'm attracted to someone. There are certain kinds of women, and certain kinds of men i'm drawn to. i tend to have more attractions towards women, but there aren't an equal number of men open to being with men, and women open to being with men in my community...so its' probably mostly about the numbers.

i'm just not sure why you'd like to tell me that i'm wrong about the way i describe my sexuality.

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-John 3:16

guthmund

I think all sexuality is a choice that's based on personal preference.

Sometimes we're not consciously aware of that choice, but I think they all follow the same pattern. I'm attracted to his/her body/mind and would like to be closer to that individual.

I can enjoy the physical/mental beauty of a man/woman to the point of arousal, but, in the end, my personal preference dictates that even though I can admire a man as a physical specimen or his mental prowess, I prefer to have sex with women.

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EULA

Ah, yes. Sexuality is no longer who you happen to fuck, it is who you are. I've also done the runaround, "Well maybe I'm straight, no I'm bi, no I'm gay, no I'm heteroflexible." From what I've read, bisexuals question their identities for the rest of their lives.

Which sex I'm attracted to changes daily, so I've decided that I'm sexual. I guess it's like there are people who are religious, there are atheists, and the their are people who are spiritual.

Kalnaur

The arguement of choice vs nature is varied and deep.

I think it's both, because it makes more sense to be naturally attracted to something/someone and then make an action based on that attraction. When that comes to sex it is just a normal as when it comes to reading a book you like or watching a film you enjoy, though also like your preference of people to be around and ideas you find acceptable.

Part choice and part natural draw, because you must choose to follow the draw.

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lurkette

I am equally attracted to both sexes, and could just as easily form a deep and committed relationship with either sex.

I don't disagree with some of your statements about people who identify themselves as bisexual, but I think it really does exist. Some people are just experimenting, others are confused, but some people really do fall smack in the middle. This would make sense if you look at human sexuality (not necessarily individual sexuality) as fluid, with people falling along a continuum.

I think you have to look at it as both genetic (there's tons of evidence) and social/environmental. Genes aren't magic things that "make" you gay or "make" you have high cholesterol or whatever - most genes work by making a person more or less susceptible to some kind of outcome depending on the experiences a person has. If you grow up in a society that sexualizes women, it's going to be a lot easier to find women sexually attractive. And if you live in a society that is sexually permissive, it's going to be easier to experiment. These are features of "bisexuality" in women, some of which are social, some of which are a matter of "choice," but if you don't have the genetics for it you're not going to be truly bisexual, IMHO. Similarly, if you have the genetics but live in a more restrictive society, you're going to be less likely to manifest as bisexual. There are some people in whom the genetic predisposition is SO strong, that experience plays practically no part. But I think they're rare.

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cellophanedeity

I personally believe that sexuality is on a sliding scale, and some people just have more lube than others.

It's both a good thing and a bad thing that bisexuality has become popularized. It's good, because it makes it a little easier to come out. It's bad because once you do come out, people wonder if you mean it, or if you were just inspired by the whole Brittney/Madona thing.

Also, there's no reason that one couldn't be bi if they happened to prefer one gender a bit more than the other.

I'd rather be Omnisexual anyway.