rsl12

console master: are you offended when people say that men are generally taller than women? are you offended that Secret sells a deodorant that is pH balanced for women? are you offended that sunscreen is generally not marketed for black people? if so, you're in for a hard, humorless life. At work, we use EPA estimates for average adult body weights. Men are assumed to be 70 kg, women are assumed to be 60 kg. Does that offend you too? Should we assume just one average of 65 kg and run all the risk assessment scenarios that way?

the data i linked is for japan and hong kong. I found no data for southeast asian countries, though I have no reason to believe that, with the exception of random subgroup X, that the average heights should be any taller than those of hong-kong-- height has increased with standard of living, and the standards of living in SE asian countries are considerably below that of japan and korea (please don't ask me to prove that too with numbers).

finally, i'm amazed that my being asian should affect what you think I can conclude about asian populations. That it a bigoted opinion, if there ever was one.

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oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

Sparhawk

wilbjammin... see my post above.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

ConsoleMaster

I'm not offended. I'm only offended when you use Asian as a description to descibe all the populace on the Asian continent. If supporting evidence seems to be extrapolated from Japan, it cannot speak for the other groups.

wilbjammin

How is this relevant to the thread's subject matter?

Explain to me why it matters so much to you that your "poverish un-supported country" isn't viewed as being a couple inches shorter on average compared to white Americans. We haven't even established this being a reason that Asian women would like white Americans... I don't particularly care if it is true or isn't, why do you care so much? And what does it mean on a macro-level in terms of interracial relationships? If this is something that you want to keep talking about, I suggest you start a new thread rather than making this all about how you're a 6'2" Asian. Maybe title it "I'm Asian and 6'2", this isn't weird" or something.

You see... you are OFF TOPIC. And you are driving me crazy.

See my above post and consider the questions I had asked. Try to stay on-topic.

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Innominate.

rsl12

yes, my mistake. i forgot about singapore. singapore is a SE asian country that has a very high standard of living and i don't have any data on it. but still i'm going to DEDUCE that the average singaporean height is not that much different from the average hong kong height.

if you don't follow this logic, you should be a politician, not a scientist.

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oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

ConsoleMaster

I'm not off topic. If data only suggests certain area of a populace, it cannot apply towards another area. It's like saying that the evidence is tampered with. For example, you murdered someone, there was overwhelming evidence for the scene to accuse to the suspect. But, the evidence was used towards another person? How illogical.

I want to let them aware not to associate irrelevent data to apply towards another group. Numbers cannot measure choice. Heck, here in my University the Asians always live in their own niche residential halls. So, it's hard for me to see the relevence in the theme of this topic, hence, my defence.

wilbjammin

I will respond to this since you asked me to.

You didn't mention Imperialism in China, the Spanish-American War and the Philippines, and many other historical events. I don't really think that many Asians are attracted to our machismo attitude. What I do think is happening, is a reaction towards established gender roles in these Asian nations that women are tired of. Confucianism promotes men over women and seeing the liberated attitudes of American women on television probably has more to do with it than anything. That's my take.

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Innominate.

Yakk

On topic, if bullshit, theory:
1> Assume no racial discrimination (in the broadest term). Even in an area with relatively lots of asiams, there will probably be more europeans. So, if people "randomly" pair up, you'd see more asian-white pairs than asian-asian pairs.

2> Being "more considerate" (justified or not) might give someone an edge in forming/keeping a relationship. Being viewed as "more considerate" would as well. Steriotypically, North American males of European discent are "more considerate" of the partner in a relationship, as are asian females. If you buy into the level-set theory of relationships (people form relationships with others of similar relationship "value" or "quality" in percentile terms[1]), this would place a bias towards them pairing up.

Footnote
[1] Ie, the "best 1%" of the male and the "best 1%" of the female would tend to pair up. (or, more precicely, there is a correlation between the relationship-quality of people who form relationships). This is bullshit because "relationship-quality" can only really be determined by analyzing how people select relationship partners, and hence you get a rather stupid circular arguement.

As noted, all of the above statements are somewhere between mild fabrications and bald all-out lies.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

rsl12

yakk: interesting theory--though I might agree that caucasians might be more giving in a relationship than asian-born asians (let's say east asian (china, korea, japanese), since the other asian countries don't share the strong confucian background), i don't really think it's true of american-born asian males. I don't know anyone american-born (or predominantly raised in america) asian-americans who is looking for a wife to be subservient. And yet there still seems to be a discrepency in the number of asian female/caucasian male relationships than in asian male/caucasian female relationships...? and there is a real distaste (at least among my acquantances) on the part of some female asian-americans about dating asian-americans, in that they have NEVER dated an asian, despite growing up with a circle of friends that included many.

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oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

rsl12

also, the idea of the 'imperial race' sounds like a possible theory too--i bet back in the day, roman citizens got all the girls. in jamaica (i lived there for 2 years in peace corps), there's still a strong idea that you should try to 'put cream into the coffee'.

now i might get a little sexist: for the 'inferior race' woman to marry the 'superior race' male, she gets to be part of a family that is possibly more financially stable, has more prestige, and gets a husband who resembles the famous leaders and entertainers that the media has shown are great people. The male is not looking for any of that--he's more interested in if the woman is hot or not and if she has a pleasant personality. Therefore he is less subject to looking at racial lines and more prone to just considering how good she looks.

Using this same logic, an 'inferior race' male would desire a 'imperial race' woman if she were attractive and nice, but the woman would have no desire to marry into a relationship with potentially less financial stability, less prestige, etc etc.

Ok, those are all gross generalizations. But on the other hand, there have been surveys showing that women value financial stability and success in a mate, while men value attractiveness more. but rip on my theory if you like.

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oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

Giltwist

Why, you ask? Two words, Oedipus complex.

Senor Roboto

crackas got the yellow fever

steve52

For a while (about a year) I went out with an asian chick and the main thing she said about this was that the guys were just generally lazy and all they wanted to do is breakdance. This was just her experience with the asian(phillipino) male population in our city so I am not trying to say this is the truth.

ChrisJericho

Of course. Sons will usually tend to be attracted to women who resemble their mothers in some ways just like daughters are usually attracted to males who resemble their fathers.

Usually.

__________________
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Sparhawk

I think this makes a lot more sense than any sort of wishy-washy "white guys are nicer" rationale.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Jesus Pimp

It used to bother me whenever I saw white guys with asian girls but now I don't really care anymore. There is a stereotype that among asian men that most asian girls are after sugar daddies. This could be true. I must be in the minority of asian men who have big dicks. Asian girls who like big dicks think we all have small dicks so they don't give us a chance. It's sad really.

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Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

Radio Monk33

I gotta say theres some interesting theories around here. I've heard most of them, but its an interesting discussion nonetheless.

The trend does bother me to be honest. I know a lot of asian guys that are less confident due to this imbalance.

Personally, it kinda ticks me off as an asian guy, so I like dating white girls to fight the trend and prove it can work the other way too

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Spidey

I think you should look at the environment factor as well. Look at it this way if you are bought up in a society where all "attractive" females/males are usually white ( from media and social interaction) this is going to play a big part in what you see as attractive. We as humans like to conform with others in hope that we are liked by them so we all conform to the one idea of attractiveness and since more of these asians living in western society are exposed to so much of it they follow the same patterns as their white counterparts.

Take me for example i'm an asian living in a white dominated society. I have little to no interest in most asian girls even though i've been friends to alot of them. Its because during my development as a child i was surrounded by people majority of european decent. I don't think i will ever have high interests in asians because of the way i was bought up. So i suppose you have to look at the environment factor in this.

Jesus Pimp

Spidey, you should give asian women a try. I used to be like you not interested in asian girls then I dated one. Let me tell you they are absolutely freaky and wild in bed. Give it a whirl.

__________________
Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

Spidey

I will if i like them, but i have yet to meet one that i like.

Its not always about their appearance, its what they can do.
For example i love girls who can sing and play a musical instrument, and asian girls as far as i know like books.

redarrow

My first GF's were asian, and im white, so it was all right but
the relationships didnt work out that well.

Needless to say im only attracted to white girls now
(not that i dont like asians)

powder

Ok, my wife is East-Indian, I'm white boy... She is completely unattracted to Indian men because of the cultures demands on Hindu brides. On the other hand, American man are quite accustomed to kissing ass in a relationship, so an American man with an East-Indian has potential to create a relationship that fosters reciprocity....

Renny

I would just like to take this opportunity to say that while many Asian women are quite beautiful, I find half Asian half White women to be extremely gorgeous and sexy, and prefer them generally to full Asian women.

killklaus

... If you want theories... lets look at the numbers... There are a HELL lot more white guys than asian guys. So for every 1 asian guy that an asian girl meets, she meets 10 white guys. Nearly all guys (white, black and hispanic) like dating asian girls. This means there are a lot more non-asian guys go after asian girls.

KirStang

Wow, i stumbled across this thread while looking for a clothing thread, and felt that it was necessary that i add my two cents.

I am an Asian American guy, I came to America from Taiwan when I was four, and have pretty much grown up here. Now, taking an objective view of American society, I see that there are pretty much no Asian 'sex icons' in popular culture. In media, asian guys are almost always seen as the studious, smart, yet subservient type (ie. the computer genius). On the other hand, we have multiple white 'sex symbols.' We have Jude Law, the intellectual sexy, Brad Pitt, the surfer/wild sexy, and of course we have various singers. This would partially explain why asian guys are generally not as lucky with asian girls.

As for white people being attracted to asian girls, and being seen as exotic, it is largely because of asian american history. The first chinese girl brought to america was put on display, for viewing by the barnum brothers. Later chinese females came to america during the gold rush, in which the guy/girl ratio was very off (95% men vs 5% women...). For this reason asian girls were generally 'employed' in to brothels, since they were in high demand (most also had to pay off their travel debt).

In the late 19th century and early 20th century, tourist guides and media would portray asian girls as exotic sexual creatures. Apparently, this has stuck with us, since i still see asian girls being portrayed as exotic sex fiends.


I would think that asian guys are, in general, shorter. However, given that they are fairly well built (Chest, abs, ass...etc..), it shouldn't be a problem, unless they are like 5'3". Most asians i know are about 5' 8" not bad, considering the avg. male height is reputed to be 5' 9."

==========
Now here's my *own* view. As asian americans, we have a tendency to deny, to dislike and feel ostracized by our fellow asians and asian americans. I remember back in 9th grade, when i got rejected by a couple of asian girls, i was completely unattracted to asian girls for a number of years. Furthermore, it would be easy for asian americans to dislike pure asians, because Asian and American values differ (asian americans would probably be more american than anything else). Lastly, there is a tendency for Asian Americans to feel that their Asian heritage is, in a word, inferior to American culture. Thus, when they see asian, they see old, but when they see american guys, they think of superiority.

Truthfully, the White guy/Asian girl thing bothers me, mostly because i feel that my fellow asians are getting the short end of the stick. What is so much 'greater' about white guys? (Really don't mean to offend anyone here, but I am speaking from the heart). Alot of times, i feel like asian guys are not "good enough" for asian girls. In fact, i even had one guy say to me about competition over a girl that, "The only thing he has over you is that he's white." What makes white a plus?

Nevertheless, i must also concede that the majority of single asian guys i know are either relationship/sexually inept. In addition, most of these guys are also very insecure and shy.

Just my 2 cents.

KnifeMissile

I don't want to be a stick-in-the-mud but there isn't, nor has there ever been, 9 billion people on earth. Perhaps you or he meant 6 billion?

KnifeMissile

Oh, I don't know. I've won the heart of someone who never found asian men attractive and never thought she'd date one. So, you never know! Unless you have a prejudice against them...

jorgelito

The answer is actually quite simple and I'm sure to ruffle a few feathers.

Asian women are self-hating. In our modern society we have been braiwashed to associate "white as right" and all things western as "correct" or superior. Just look at media images etc. It's not good or bad, it just is, so don't all excited and try and brand me a racist or whatever.

It's not just confined to Asians. Other races experience this as well. Look around. Lighter skinned people tend to be viewed as more attractive and successful people of color tend to "upgrade" by out marrying to lighter skinned or white folks for status or whatever. In addition, they move into "white areas" as well.

As for the Asian chick, anti fishstick, who said, "I don't find Asian guys attractive", that just proves my point. Most women tend to "fall" for men that most resemble themselves or their father. But because she obviously hates being Asian (cause it's not a cool race or whatever) she associates all things Asian as negative. It's also denial. "Oh I'm not Asian, I'm American", then distancing themselves and surrounding themselves with all white friends etc.

It's actually pretty sad.

As for white dudes, well, that's pretty obvious. They are objectifying, fetishizing, exoticfying their fantasy. They are more into the "trophy" novelty and the prospect of getting some Saigon Slut and "me so horny" loving. Just look at the previous posts and the subtext. Same goes for hot Latina (love that J-Lo) or Jungle sex with Halle Berry thinking.

Not one mentioned any individuality or anything of substance in their relationship with an Asian chick. Instead, stereotypes are used to justify behavior and sandbag entire demographics.

Perception is a powerful thing.

By the way, the whole height thing is ridiculous. That stereotype thing is outdated. Welcome to the millenium, you really can't think like that (or maybe you can but that's just ignorance). I've been to China, Asia and there's plenty of tall, short, skinny fat etc all over the place. Especially with better nutrition and stuff.

Also, Asians who try to distance themselves by buying into the race dynamic: dissing on other Asians etc are not helping but rather making things worse by reinforcing negative stereotypes and perpetuating falsehoods.

FaderMonkey, So the Korean girl who claimed that she didn't date Asian guys because they had small dicks has fucked all of them? What a slut! No, wait, she's an idiot and said something that you liked to hear and made you feel like a man. Thereby pleasing you and contributing to your continued ignorance (not a personal dis, just a theoretical example using your post).

Consider the following:
Black guys are notorious for "upgrading" - You'd think they are as desperate as Asian chicks. They're always trying to get with a white chick or lighter skinned minority. Maybe it's because blacker women have pussies that are just too darn loose for their big dicks. Or is it cause black chicks are too uppity and white chick are more demure and feminine?

Think about that for a minute. Now start substituting the racial descriptives and you'll start to understand the social phenomena. Try to see this post as an abstract. I used generalizations because I didn't want to write a freakin' 500 page dissertation with citations, footnotes etc.

One day (hopefully), all the so-called races and ethnicites will be so mixed up that nobody will give a flying-fuck what or who anyone is. I think the census numbers have shown increase in multi-ethnic population count (US). Slow, but steady. Say a hundred years or so, multi-ethnic will be the majority and whites, blacks, Asians whatever will be the minorities. *shrug*

Just my two-cents...

jorgelito

There is definitely something to be said about the "power" thing too. It is my understanding that it is perfectly natural that women would lean towards attraction to men of wealth, power etc...

Hence old, fat, ugly dude (regardless of race) tend to constantly get hot chicks or whatever.

Incidentally, Judge Lance Ito (of OJ Simpson trial fame) and Secretary of Transportation Norm Mineta (the guy who had to ground all flight and implement new security measures after 9/11) are married to white chicks.

Maybe probability and availability plays into it as well although I'm not entirely sure as to what Yakk was saying (Yakk's posts are usually excellent - grounded in logic and supported with good info - see his Canadian threads) so I'll gander a guess.

Statistically, in the US, Asians only make up 13% and are distributed throughout the country. If you're the only Asian chick in your town and there are no Asian dudes then badabing, you go with what you have - just a vague oversimplification.

KnifeMissile

I didn't understand your first sentence but, given the second, I take it you don't think a sample of 1000 is very representative of a sample space of 2,000,000,000. However, the fact of the matter is that 1000 samples is enough to represent the height of a population of 2,000,000,000 to within a reasonable degree. That's why statistics is such a powerful tool. Statistics are only misleading because it is practiced by people, like yourself, who don't understand it...

KnifeMissile

That's why asian men must expand their dating pool by dating white women. Doesn't that make it all better?

Of course no man would "think it cool." Racism isn't very cool...

jorgelito

Knifemissile, I think you might have misunderstood ConsoleMaster.

I get your point about the Japanese sample etc. By itself sure, sounds about right. There's more to it also. I think anthropologists or sociologists can explain better.

It's like, Japan is a relatively homogenous population with relatively low genetic variation ( I guess, "purer", so to speak) so the 1000 statistic is fairly viable.

BUT, I think this is ConsoleMaster's point: You can't use Japan's statistic to describe all of Asia or whatever or to represent China, India. Something like that.

I'm going to go out on a limb here but maybe we could use the US election as an example of statistical analysis. FOr example: I don't think we could use one state's stats to describe all of the US. If 1000 in California tend to lean Kerry, would that mean all of the US leans Kerry?

Or maybe this example:
If we could say, if 1000 men in Canada were shorter than Swedes, could we say that all North American men are shorter than Swedes?

Interesting stat problem...

jorgelito

Quote: Of course no man would "think it cool." Racism isn't very cool...

Haha, I agree, great answer.

Wait, what's a Knife Missle? Is it like a Flying Dagger?

FL8ME

jorgelito

How would you try to explain white male/asian female relationships in non-western countries? Would you still maintain it stems from the woman's desire for a powerful white partner and self loathing and the man's desire to fulfill his "Saigon sluty" fantasy? You've "been to China, Asia", obviously you feel you can knowledgeably weigh in on this.

jorgelito

That is a good question FL8ME.

My opinion is that:

1. China is an odd example. It might be the only Asian country I know of that is not as obsessed with white guys/culture as other countries. It may be due to it's size and relative strength. But it's not the easy pickings for whites guys like SE Asia.

As for white dudes' Hanoi hump-hump me-luv-you-long-time fantasy, well, that's a big reason why they travel there in the first place. Either sex tours, mail order brides, or fetish traveling, it's all indicative of the same syndrome.

2. In other areas however, I believe the overwhelming tendency is still to move up or "upgrade" In other words, getting a green card. Now keep in mind, I'm not trying to make a value judgement, I'm merely trying to understand a social phenomena. Not judging right or wrong.

Asia is very crowded and many people believe in the American dream and are in awe and wonder of America and the West (based on media, movies, etc). SO many people desire a better life and wish to emigrate to US, Canada etc.

As for perceptions of quality, beauty andything subjective, well, the underlying reasons would still go back to East-West dynamics, developing countries vs. developed countries. For example, Western domination in economics dictates the Western media, marketing, promotion. Therefore, western images of beauty of value are still able to penetrate Asian, African etc countries.

One example would be the obsession with eyelid surgery among Korean females in Korea. (Actually, eyelid surgery is rather rampant everywhere, a desperate bid by Asians to look "Western". Kind of sad don't you think?) Mutiliating oneself to fit a socially constructed standard of beauty imposed by a dominant power.

On the other hand, if Japan were to be the superpower today and Western countries the source of cheap labor and subservient roles, would white chicks be getting eyelid surgery to look more Asian?

On a small scale, it has happened. During my travels through Asia, I've met many, many Western girls (Europe, US, Canada) modeling in Asia. There was this one hot blond I was dating. After a while, she couldn't get as much work so she ended up dying her hair dark brown and all of a sudden got more work. SO in this particular case, she adapted to the dominant culture of where she was at the time.

Now, you could say, "hey what about Asian dudes trying to get white chicks?" Good question too. I would respond with, the gender dynamic. I believe culturally, there are different demands placed upon males vs. females, especially in that part of the world. SO the son would prefer to do well and stick around home, whereas a daughter (generally speaking not as valued) would actually have more potential freedom to do whatever she wants. Either marry some dude there, and end up serving him and his family or maybe moving abroad. The latter choice opens up the possibility for the whole family to be able to emigrate. All of a sudden, good job daughter! Moving to a Western country like US, Canada, Australia (as a family unit) is a big deal.

I've met so many Asian girls who say, wow, you're girlfriend is so beautiful, she has blond hair or blue eyes or big eyes. I'm ugly because I have small eyes flat nose etc.

That whole region needs some therapy and daily affirmation of something.

Similarly, I've met a lot of Caribbean and African folks traveling around. One thing I've noticed: They are always embarrassed to say they are from Africa. They always say, "I'm from New York" when it's not true.

Keep in mind, these are somewhat vague generalizations in an attempt to get a macro view of this social phenomena. I am not trying to offend any group but may use certain terms for convenience. I personally believe that healthy and civil debate contributes positively to our body of knowledge and understanding and furthers our humanity.

CityOfAngels

I didn't read all of the original post because it was quite long, but I'll say this:

My ex girlfriend is Chinese. I am a mixture of Native American, Spanish, and a whole lot of white-European. At first, she was weary of dating me because she had only dated asian guys in the past, and her parents always told her to marry a "nice, wealthy Chinese man." Well, after a long time of just being fuck buddies, we became quite attached to each other, so she decided to introduce me to her parents. Her parents LOVED me, so finally she decided that it was cool for us to be "official."

About a year later, after we broke up, she went on this fuck-every-guy-she-sees spree, and they all happened to be white males. Her current boyfriend is a white, jewish blonde. One day I asked her why she was no longer attracted to asian guys, and she said, "Well, you introduced me to big dicks. Besides, I despise being asian, and dating another asian is just...ew!"

Despite the twisted compliment she threw in there, I was quite sickened by what she had to say. Here she was, the same girl who used to bring me asian porridge for breakfast before school; the same girl who I used to eat Spam and rice with; the same girl who would translate for me whenever we would go eat Dim-Sum, saying, "I despise being Chinese." Now she's COMPLETELY white-washed, even going so far as trying to adopt a British accent!

But once in awhile when I hang out with her, I STILL catch her switching her L's with R's, and it just let's me know that her own heritage will never completely escape her.

__________________
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jorgelito

CityofAngels,

your anecdote is one of many examples that "proves" my theory (I know, I know, hardly scientific) of autoracism and race dynamic perception.

How sad that so many groups of people see themselves so lowly. Blacks are similar too, at least in the US. Many disassociating themselves from other blacks, trying to act "white". Saying, "I ain't no nigger!" or lighter skinned blacks trying to pass for white.

jorgelito

Attitudes like hers, tells others that it's ok to treat other Asians like shit or that the stereotypes are true. The net effect is one of dehumanization and racial prejudice. It makes it all the worse when it comes from within and is the ultimate betrayal. I feel sorry for Asians in the social department, they certainly have it rough.

westothemax

Exactly. Looking back on 2004, I think the only Asian "singer" to get widespread media attention in USA was William Hung. I mean no offense, but I think he is the image of the stereotypical Asian man in most American's minds.


Also, compare the accents of immigrants to USA. British accents are usually considered to be sexy. Australian accents the same. Even the accents of people from non-English speaking European countries are considered sexy - Italian, Spanish, French accents, etc.

But you never hear anyone saying a thick Japanese accent speaking English is sexy. Instead, East-Asian accented English is, at best, poked fun at ("Engrish").

jorgelito

westothemax makes an excellent point in supplementing KirStang's theory. Both are good examples of socially constructed values ascribed to perceptions of ethnic identity. In this manner, western media or predominance of western culture, has conspired (intentionally or not, it doesn't matter) to render the Asian male ineffetual, unmanly etc. therefore unattractive or undesirable to anyone.

It'll be interesting to see what the next 100 years brings. Change can come about rapidly, especially with shifts in the balance of power, economics, and ensuing culture. Heck, maybe even 50 years, who knows.