CityOfAngels

Ok, before you read this, keep in mind that it is on a VERY touchy subject, and you should read it carefully and open-mindedly. The goal of this thread is to generate some group understanding; not to bash anyone or start flame wars.

I am a straight, male Christian. Before I became a Christian (Junior High), my general views on homosexuality were that it's wierd, and those who take part in it are nasty as hell. The word "gay" was a cuss word in my vocabulary; "You're gay, man!", "Man, that's gay!". Then I became a Christian. I learned about how Jesus loves everyone, and that I should follow his example. I learned how no matter what we do or think, no man or woman is lower or higher than each other, and no one has the right to oppress someone for a sin given the fact that they sin themselves.

Then came Sodom and Gomorrah. I must admit, I don't read the Bible as often as I should, so I don't remember names or anything; but after my study on Genesis, my general understanding of Sodom and Gomorrah is that someone went to visit them and the males tried to rape him. Afterwards God sent down meteor showers or burning hail stones on the town(s), completely decimating them. So with that story, I was taught that being homosexual is a sin, and proof of it is how God reacted towards them.

For the longest time I believed that homosexuality is a sin. I believed that although it is a sin, I sin too so I shouldn't make fun of homosexuals, nor discriminate them from being my friends. But after a long while, I began to think about it even more. I thought, "What if I fell in love with a girl and my God told me that by loving her I am sinning?" I realized that's what's happening with homosexuals. They are being told that loving another person is a sin. Doesn't Jesus teach that the two most important things in life are to love God and love each other?

But still, I couldn't bring myself to question what I believe is God's Word (the Bible). So I began to question its teachings; what others have interpreted it to say. I look back at Sodom and Gomorrah, and yeah, those guys were gay and God punished them. But then it clicked. There was something else at play there. They tried to rape him. Maybe God was angry about that? Maybe God was angry because they were using sex as a way to show power over another rather than a way to show love to each other?

So that is my current belief; that the Bible says nothing about homosexuality being a sin, but that when it said that rape is a sin, it just so happened to use a homosexual encounter. Maybe it was there to show that homosexuality has been around just as long as heterosexuality? Who knows? But I do know that Jesus would never teach us that loving each other is a sin.

I must admit. I still think that to be a gay guy is pretty nasty. I can't imagine going down on a guy (or when I do imagine it, I get my gag reflexes kickin' in), or banging a guy up the poop-shoot, or getting banged up the poop-shoot for that matter. But that comes with the fact that people are different. I know that it isn't wrong to be different, otherwise we'd all be wrong and it wouldn't be our faults. So I decide to stay quiet about my opinion of gay men, because I realize that it is their choice, and they're not harming anyone or going against any of God's teachings. It's just different. We all know that differences are always hard to deal with, but must be dealt with.

Just so you all know, the thing that kept me questioning is the fact that I've always thought that two gorgeous women getting it on was hot. I couldn't think I was wrong for liking that, because I can't help it. So I guess in fact, I have a little homosexuality in me, only it's kinda reverse or opposite homosexuality as I like to see two members of the opposite sex going at it.

That's my opinion. What's yours?

urizenxvii

holy crap, a reasonable and sane christian... that actually thinks about what Jesus was teaching... you, my friend, rule. and you should be an example to everyone of tolerance and sensibility.

my opinion: Love is love, attraction is attraction. I personally have very few religious tendencies, so I don't have that working against me. I'm straight, I don't find the idea of intimate physical relations with men very appealing... that doesn't mean it's WRONG. It's wrong for me, yes. But it could be right for someone else. Saying otherwise is just intolerant and stupid, imho.

__________________
BOOYAH!

sbscout

IMHO, you have committed a common error whilst studying the Bible -- you are using it to justify your feelings. The Bible has been used for ages in just the same way to defend both sides of many issues.

Homosexuality is condemned, you say, with the story of Sodom; therefore, it is a sin.

Masturbation has been condemned because of Onan's deeds; have you sinned?

You say that watching two women "engage" turns you on; do you covet them? If so, you're sinning again.

Do you eat pork? Another sin! (and don't say that your being Christian negates this law... if it does, then it also negates your argument against homosexuality. Old Testament law either counts or it doesn't).

Please don't rationalize your fears regarding homosexuality by invoking the Bible. That is, in my opinion, what you are doing.

As it is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

__________________
Always question authority... it'll keep the bastards on their toes!

lurkette

I agree to some extent with sbscout that using literal scripture to justify your feelings is somewhat intellectually lazy. If you've come to a conclusion based on reason and on sincere beliefs, I don't think there's a need to back it up by reinterpreting scripture depending on your opinion of the day. I think it's admirable that you've come to such a compassionate conclusion that is consistent with your strongly held religious beliefs. As long as you're clear that you are in fact interpreting the scripture, not reading them literally, I think you're fine.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Nisses

sbscout: that is bollocks, pardon my language...

The Old Testament does not either counts or not.

Doesn't the OT say an eye for an eye? Doesn't say that anywhere in the NT. Quite the opposite. The New Testament goes a totally different path on several issues, and nowhere does it mention any kinds of food that shouldn't be eaten.

The commandments however (even though they are part of the OT), stand above most parts of the OT. Not like Deut.'s rules and obligations that were added alot later.

I actually find his argument intruiging when it comes to Sodomma & Gomorra. It could very well be that people misinterpreted the event as a punishment against homosexuality instead of rape.

Masturbation a sin you say sbscout: where's it *say* that in the Bible? (asking, not sure but I doubt you're gonna find it)
Covetting: gotta agree, you are sinning there, no matter how you look at it. Accept it, it's part of being human. Letting yourself go down and lose yourself in it is another matter entirely. As a Christian, you aspire to reach the guides and commandments set in the Holy Book. You'll never reach them though, that's not the point. The point is you earnestly try to.

I dunno who ever said it, but as a Christian it is your task to be tolerant and accepting of other people's choices in life. They are hard enough as it is. It's God's right to judge and condemn. Not the people on this earth.

And yes, I am a catholic too.

__________________
Moderation should be moderately moderated.

raeanna74

"Old Testament law either counts or it doesn't)."

Do you abide by the Ten Commandments? Do you think they are good things? They are from the old Testament. Do you steal? Kill? Give a false testimony in court? They are a commonly accepted list of laws that are the basis of current law.

Coveting woman isn't listed as a sin - coveting your neighbors wife, i.e. desiring to take her from him, is considered a sin.

I'm not going to use to Bible to justify anything I do but I also am not going to condemn anyone for doing something they want to do.

On the other hand I don't abide by most of the Old Testament. I don't try to at all. I obey current laws of my country as far as possible and beyond that I don't worry about it.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

salsa2

"For the longest time I believed that homosexuality is a sin. I believed that although it is a sin, I sin too so I shouldn't make fun of homosexuals, nor discriminate them from being my friends. But after a long while, I began to think about it even more. I thought, "What if I fell in love with a girl and my God told me that by loving her I am sinning?" I realized that's what's happening with homosexuals. They are being told that loving another person is a sin. Doesn't Jesus teach that the two most important things in life are to love God and love each other?"

Loving each other has nothing to do with having sex with them. God isnt telling us to nail as many people as we can because He told us to "Love" them. The emotion of love is not the sin, it is the physical act outside of marriage.

"But still, I couldn't bring myself to question what I believe is God's Word (the Bible). So I began to question its teachings; what others have interpreted it to say. I look back at Sodom and Gomorrah, and yeah, those guys were gay and God punished them. But then it clicked. There was something else at play there. They tried to rape him. Maybe God was angry about that? Maybe God was angry because they were using sex as a way to show power over another rather than a way to show love to each other?

So that is my current belief; that the Bible says nothing about homosexuality being a sin, but that when it said that rape is a sin, it just so happened to use a homosexual encounter. Maybe it was there to show that homosexuality has been around just as long as heterosexuality? Who knows? But I do know that Jesus would never teach us that loving each other is a sin."

The bible actually does say that homsexuality is a sin. For starters check out Romans 1:24 - 32(?) There are other examples you can find if you look. Its not just an old test thing. Love the sinner, hate the sin. Just because you love someone doesnt mean you have to approve of everything they do

Mael

disclaimer: everything i said is my opinion, and yes, often i am considered an asshole. my apologies.

cheerios

guys, just a friendly warning: everyone's religious beliefs are their own and calling people morons, stupid, or any of that other fun stuff, just because their religous beliefs are not your own will not be tolerated.


that said, I need some clarification. So, the old testimate has all these rules and stuff. but christians these days try to follow the teachings of Jesus. so... is the old testamate relevant to life? does it have any meaning to the modern day christian? is it a pick and choose kind of thing, or is it completely irrelevant. I seem to remember jesus somehow freeing people from the rules of the old testamate? I dunno, this whole thing confuses me...

edit: also, my personal opinions on the matter can be found in my sig.

DEI37

There was more to Soddom and Gomorah than just gays and rape. Prostitution, incest, and other things were involved there. I am of the thinking, "hate the sin, love the sinner." I don't like homosexuality, and that's my right to think such. I don't force my thinkings on others, nor do I make fun of "gays." They can be nice people, too. I don't condone homosexuality, and some of my thoughts have been put into threads on this very discussion board. Some of my thoughts aren't popular. I don't care.
To the topic of the Bible, and it's relevance in today's society...the OT is kind of "outdated," for lack of a better word. While I believe the Bible to be true, and the Word of God, that portion of the Bible, I feel, is more of a guide to living life. It tells stories (that are true and real, I believe), and shows a person the difference between right and wrong. It's the NT that is supposed to kind of "govern" (once again, I use that for lack of a better word) the way we live. I believe the 10 Commandments still apply today, if for no other reason that some of them are laws.
I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for us, was dead for three days, and lives right now. I believe that accepting this gift, and trusting in Him is the ONE and ONLY way to Heaven. I believe that Hell is a real place. I too, am a born again Christian. I do NOT believe in pushing my beliefs on others. I do believe in telling them, though. If you refuse it, I'll not pressure it. Maybe mention it here and there, but that's about it. If you disagree with me, then we agree to disagree. I'm not about to get in to a pissing match. It isn't worth it.

OK...sorry, WAY off topic. I don't have much more to say, but if you want to pick my brain (there isnt' much there, I'll be up front and honest), feel free to ask, and I'll tell you what I believe on just about anything.

__________________
Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

doomdoom

first off, im amazed that this hasnt turned into a flame war. im earnestly impressed...


Masturbation a sin you say sbscout: where's it *say* that in the Bible?

Matthew 5:28 is the most famous instance of saying that lust is a sin. lust is kinda important for the deed. ive looked before, but ive never found a straight condemming of masturbation.

one thing, as a Christian myself id have to say that the OT is vital to the Christian life. not so much for keeping kosher or whatnot, but in that it is the foundation for the NT. everything in it points to the NT. and the NT wouldnt work without it.

cheerios

sure, but what about all that 'women on their periods are unclean" and "don't eat pigs" and stuff? if you disregard that as outdated... what about the rest?

doomdoom

yeah. some of it became outdated with Jesus. He became the law. i havent studied this excatly in a long time (and when i did i was alot younger) but there are certain types of law in the OT that became irrevelvant with Jesus. "dont eat pigs" being one of them.

bobw

I am a heterosexual, happily married (to a woman) man, but I see absolutely no basis in the modern world for bashing, or refusing to accept, homosexuality. It is very rare and difficult to find real love, and if someone does, it should not be the concern of others who they find it with !

Pellaz

Just a few notes on Sodom and Gomorrah for those familiar with it and those who aren't. As all old texts are, the actually meaning is subject to broad interpretation. One of the more prevalent theories on the matter has to do not with homosexuality, but the attempted theft of power. It was once believed that to rape a man was to steal a part of his very essence and power. God sent two angels and Lot invited them to stay at his home. Upon seeing this, the townspeople approached Lots house, demanding to 'know' his visitors. Lot offers up his daughters in the angels steed (an odd thing to do if they were a bunch of homosexuals), and the townspeople reject his offer. The actual sin that S&G was punished for was presuming that they could steal a piece of the divine.
Anyway, that's the barebones story, and a common interpretation of what it means sprinkled in.
For the original question, I think you should love as you will. Of course, I'm not christian, so can by pass all the bible worries when deciding that.

__________________
" ' Big Mouth.
Remember it took three of you to kill me.
A god, a boy, and, last and least, a hero.' "

CityOfAngels

When a law becomes outdated, it means it was fit for the time it was written. Back in the day, they had no refridgeration unless they somehow found a way to preserve ice. That's kinda hard to do in the desert. Pork has to be thoroughly cooked before eaten; otherwise you can contract serious diseases and worms. So, imagine cooking up spoiled pork (they often ate spoiled meat unless they were rich with cattle), and you don't thoroughly cook it. Not only does it have the same risks as if it weren't spoiled, but also new ones given that it is spoiled. Not a good combination at all.

I'm glad to see that people are responding with intelligent ideas. It helps to talk about things like this rationally just so we can understand each other, rather than judge each other.

__________________
The words "love" and "life" go together. It is almost as if they are one. You must love to live, and you must live to love, or you have never lived nor loved at all.

Nisses

Mael:

bollocks is english slang I believe, since you don't seem to recognise it... (not a native english speaker)

it's a vulgar way of calling it bullshit, basically bollocks equals nuts, balls, cojones & other male genitalia.


As for the incoming generalisation: well, it is actually true. The OT is the foundation of the NT, but other than the fundamental value of some things, it is the NT that preaches, and the OT "fills in the gaps".

Like DoomDoom said, it's there and we regard the NT as the fulfillment of the OT. Like we were taught, Moses made a pact with God and the Jews lived by it, believing the messias will come some day. We believe they lived as they did, and He did come, and during His live and through His death He made a new pact with God, It's the new pact we should honor.

So without the OT, there can't be a NT for us. If you deny history, you in a way are denying your present it's value as well.

Also, the things I say are what I remember from 10 years ago, so forgive me if I make a mistake here and there. That's also why I asked where it spoke of masturbation.

__________________
Moderation should be moderately moderated.

MSD

This allegedly is God's word on homoxexuality.
And this is the weak argument that extremists use to demonize masturbation:
So, we have a passage that makes historical sense, as there weren't as many people around back then, and homosexuality meant that people weren't producing kids to help their village, and if they're not producing children, they're not only not being productive, they're taking up resources that others needed.

As for masturbation, the only reason that God decided to smite Onan is that he disobeyed an order to have children with his brohter's wife in order to continue his family line. The act itself was not wrong, ti was the reason he did it.

In modern times, neither of these applies. If your brother dies, you will look like a pervert if you go after his wife, and we are overpopulated, and failing to create children isn't a big problem anymore.

rodgerd

Jesus also didn't have much to say about sex, and nothing about homosexuality. That comes from Paul.

Nebs

Welp, I'm glad you're rational and Christain. That's not so common. I myself, am gay. So, yay you.

Of course I don't mind you saying things like you're discusted because oyu can't imagine yourself having gay sex. I can't imagine myself having straight sex, so yeah, that's quite a fair statement.

Derwood

Because there is no way to tell how many times the bible was revised over the past 2000 years, I can't put much creedence into it. I have every reason to believe that any number of things were added/deleted/altered to the bible over the ages to reflect the personal beliefs/wishes of the current reigning king/pope/etc. Particularly in the middle ages when very few people could read or write.

Besides, as Bill Maher often says: "God doesn't write books, people do." Can't trust people.

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

Leviathan[NCV]

I believe we had a nice long thread on the whole masturbation being a sin thing some time ago.

And, on that note, being homosexual is not a sin. The act of sodomy is. (An off topic note, did you guys know oral sex is illegal in Utah?).

I don't like the gay lifestyle, but I have no problem with the people.

Dilbert1234567

i belive that maraige is between a man and a woman,

BUT

i also accept homosexual people, and they deserve rights that everyone else has, they should have a legal bond of some sort that alows them same bonuses and penaties of being maried,

i.e.
transfer money to spouse, visit in the hospital...


i dont see why people have such a problem with homosexuals, its not like there gona change me, ive been freins with a gay man since befor he was even gay (or admiting to it) he's a great guy but its not like he's trying to convert me...

__________________
Donate Blood!

"Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

siryn

If only all Christians were willing to think the bible thru like you. The world would be a better place, for one thing. Your points are good, and I really, really, really appreciate your perspective. MrSelfDestruct, also good breakdown of biblical verse. You people give me faith that Christianity is not the devil.

Sledge

CityOfAngels, be wary of what the church has to teach you. Leading my small group during fellowship I've disseminated some very dangeous untruths in my own time. Make sure you do the reading before you blindly swallow what people in your church tell you; remember that Christians, good, God-fearing, honest Christians, can sometimes bend the truth to justify their personal outlook or interpretation of the Bible.

In particular, there's a lot of Christian propaganda about how homosexuals can be converted to heterosexuals with prayer and the touch of God. Organizations like Exodus International are dedicated to the salvation of homosexuals, believing that their sinful desires can be erased with help. But this is a dangerous argument: when homosexual Christians try, and fail, the blame falls on THEM (of course) for not having the willpower or faith to resist their temptations. How easy do you think it would be to change from heterosexuality to homosexuality? The idea of gay activity is repulsive to you, right? Isn't it exactly the same thing for gays and lesbians, but in reverse? It's not as easy as it sounds to "convert."

In my personal quest to get a more well-rounded view of the issue, I've found this site to be an excellent resource. Good luck.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

XenuHubbard

I've met enough Asian gays to know that it's not a choice.
Especially for Chinese guys, that has to get married and have children. Children are vital for the Chinese.

Some poor guys try and try again to become "straight", because no offspring equals something close to damnation.
If they had a choice to start with, they wouldn't choose to be gay.

__________________
The above was written by a true prophet. Trust me.

"What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000

analog

I'm Catholic. It's nice to hear another open-minded Christian- although I don't agree with all aspects of your post, I applaud you for haivng your own thoughts and making rational decisions FOR YOURSELF.

The Bible was written by men. MEN. Most likely, these were some pretty opinionated, straight men. You think they would let a gay man write in the bible? Anything even remotely pro-gay would be edited out immediately. God didn't write the bible. Men did. I take it for what it is meant to be, a guide through which you can learn lessons on how to be a good person, treat others with respect, and love everyone, as God loves everyone. I can't understand how someone can tell me, "God loves everyone" in one breath, and then "but being Gay is a sin, and God hates that" in the next. The first cannot be true if the second is true, and vice-versa.

I'm a good person. I help others when I can by donating time, knowledge, or money as I can afford it. I don't harm others through action or place others in harm's way through inaction. I don't steal. I am tolerant of others' ways. I am not God, The Judge. Who the fuck am _I_ (or anyone for that matter) to say what He does and doesn't like, or to pass judgement on someone because of how they live their lives. He wants us all to love each other and live in peace. This does NOT include bombing abortion clinics, this does NOT include bashing gay people.

I like gay people. They're no different from other people except that they're constantly hassled by intolerant and ignorant people about their lifestyle.

As a side-note, I might point out the obvious fact that it was written a LONG time ago and FAR away. Hell, if you went and re-wrote the bible right now, you'd get 8 million different opinions on what it should say, and who or what it should condone. How can you use something that old as a hard and fast literall reference? Things change with time and tolerance, but the important ones stay the same. All my opinion. Thanks for reading it, feel free to PM me.

tisonlyi

Exactly, my scientologist bothering brother.

Being gay is NOT a choice.

Also, which version of the old testament are we talking about here?

Hebrew? Roman Catholic? King James?

You do know, for one example of a glaring error in translation, that Mary was mistrranslated as being a virgin?

The correct translation was Maiden.

This could mean Virgin, but, not necessarily. It basically just means unmarried... And don't let the goodbook fool you, chapesses liked a good romp in the hay as much then as they do now.

So, not nearly as virginal as you may have been led to believe.

I, myself, in choosing a random book to quote from and guide me through my life, have taken to Marquis de Sade's "120 Days of Sodom".

I like the fact that it hasn't lost it's disclaimer.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

motdakasha

I'm going to avoid the religious talk altogether. However, I would like to point out the hypocrisy in accepting lesbians (i.e. being turned on by the thought of), but not gays. Both same-gender unions are homosexual.

__________________
=^-^= motdakasha =^-^=
Just Google It.
BA Psychology & Photography
(I'm not going psychoanalyze you nor will I let you cry on my shoulder. Have a nice day.)

Met22

The bible is not the Rand McNally or Thomas Guide to life. The bible is a book written in multiple versions by MAN. It’s interpretation of life’s events 2000 years ago. Each man placing his take on the world’s events at the time. While it is a book of reference for societies throughout the ages, it does not provide all the answers. Each culture overlays society’s beliefs into the written words of the time and search for the language of the bible to justify its position of condemn those by the Holy book. While I believe in God you must take the bible for what it is, a book of stories with lessons attached. It is not the rule book with all life’s conditions. Life is comprised of basic elements and some have no logical or scientific explanation. Outside of man the rest of the world’s creatures live by their inherent being. Sure our capacity to think philosophically separates us from those creatures. I went to Catholic school 12 years. Beliefs are beliefs and no one has the right to condemn that of others.

Therefore I say that use the bible as a reference to formulate your opinions if you chose, but remember to temper that with what your soul and mind say. We are all entitled to make our own assessments and decisions on all subjects. When we look to find a reason to condemn another’s choice in life, it seem that this is not the intention of faith. Make all right with your own life and let others live theirs without the fear and ridicule of persecution.

So my opinion on the subject is that it is a personal choice and the world is our place to share.

__________________
Living on the west end dreaming of the theater playing in the Metropolis - Dream the Dream Live the Dream

CityOfAngels

motdakasha - How is it hypocritical to be turned on by one thing and not the other? Isn't that the whole point of this thread? I am turned on by women; whoop-dee-whoo.

__________________
The words "love" and "life" go together. It is almost as if they are one. You must love to live, and you must live to love, or you have never lived nor loved at all.