If you are into your religion, is it a sin to masturbate? - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

alicat · 08-18-2007, 02:36 PM

While the post that revived this 4 year old thread was very well written and had some interesting information, to me it seems a little on the verge of prosthelytizing. For someone with the screen-name "Parable", who just joined and with only one post to a forum like TFP and in Sexuality, I can only think "troll". I'm just sayin'.

However, it was a great thread I didn't read in the past, please carry-on.

As a former catholic my only imput is I don't subscribe to any religion and therefore if you want to rub one out, be you female or male, again carry-on.

Ali

DaveOrion · 08-18-2007, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parable

p.s. my dad was an ordained Episcopal priest with a masters in divinity and doctorate in ministry

Well, Thats great, I'm sure you have been brought up in the finest traditions of the church and I do respect that. On the other hand, I have read the bible cover to cover, twice, so I do have a fundamental understanding of this Book. From my feeble perpspective, I've constructed a rough picture of laws and rituals, which never sustained the people, until their hearts were opened to a new understanding, where the individual has been set free, to do the right thing and sin no more, because thats what his or her heart told them to do, not because of a set of laws or precepts, but because thats the right thing to do. Sorry for the lack of definable sentences, or syntax errors, I just roll with it..........

bloody_rose20 · 08-18-2007, 03:03 PM

I can tell you, I am in no way under the influence of "god". So my religion would not say that it is a sin to masturbate. Masturbating is a normal thing to do. Everyone does it even if they won't admit it. SO don't worry about it and get your rocks off guilt free lol

parable · 08-18-2007, 03:21 PM

My user name is Parable because I like the idea of a parable, i.e. as a story that relates a truth more profound than the story per se suggest superficially. I view my own life as such a story.

As for any agenda I may have, on a forum such as this it is to speak the truth in love with gentleness and respect. I am Christian, but my purpose here is not to convert anyone to anything. That is between each person and their creator. My hope is that people will know me by how my actions match my words.

If I may, I'd like to respond to a statement by alicat. I'm not attempting to prosethelytize, just articulate my understanding of theology.

The truth of the good news is simple, as alicat said "hearts were opened to a new understanding", where people have been "set free" to "sin no more". But, its not because that's what their hearts told them to do, or that the law told them, but rather because they were given the righteousness of Christ when they accepted what He did on their behalf, in full completion of the law's requirements. He did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it and more. By this I mean, while the greatest commandments were "to love God" and "to love others as yourself", Jesus went one further when He issued the New Commandment, "to love each other as I have loved you".

How does this relate to masturbation? Its kinda hard to fantasize about someone if you are loving them as God does. So, if masturbation does not involve lust for another person, the bible says nothing about solitary sex. That is, there is nothing inherently sinful about inducing yourself to orgasm so long as you're not USING another person in a selfish way in your mind or heart when you do it.

The deeper issue is dehumanization of others. This is unhealthy because those who would use others for selfish reasons must distinguish themselves from the rest of humanity in order to justify taking advantage of them. That is, if you're a guy and you fantasize about a woman, your sort of ignore the fact she is someone's daughter, sister, mother or wife. And if you would not wish for your sister, daughter, mother or wife to be used like this by someone else, then perhaps that should inform your own conduct.

DaveOrion · 08-18-2007, 03:30 PM

Huh.....Hello.....Fantasizing while masturbating always involves lust for another person....at least that's been my personal experience while masturbating....its not like I think about God and masturbate. I think about a beautiful, hot, sexy woman, with her legs spread wide open, and my tongue delving oh so deep between those hot moist lips, till I find that button of love to tease and please till she just cant take it anymore..........

Jetée · 08-18-2007, 05:04 PM

I believe the most prevalent historical figure that condemned self-indulgence, at least in my experience, was St. Thomas Aquinas (13th Century). To paraphrase a quote taught by Aquinas, he stated that 'masturbation is even a more heinous sin than consumation with one's own mother, for at least the spilling of the seed will result in a spawn from such a reprehensible act'.

from Masturbation Throughout History:

Quote:

Sexuality began to suffer a stigma with the growing influence of the Christian Church. Such figures as the apostle Paul (of the first century Current Era), Augustine (354-430 CE), and Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) contributed to increasingly negative attitudes toward the human body and all forms of pleasure in general. Paul fostered misogyny, or anti-female sentiments, starting a trend of condemning all forms of sexuality other than heterosexual intercourse for the purpose of reproduction. This continued an existing philosophical trend of separating the physical and the spiritual, considering them as conflicting opposites. Augustine institutionalized the religious distaste for sexual union itself, while Aquinas particularly vilified homosexuality. An early medieval manual of punishments to be bestowed by priests prescribed severe penalties for men over 20 who engaged in mutual masturbation. Men under that age were punished less severely, and boys under 14 engaging in solo masturbation were punished the least. Other writers on JackinWorld have dealt with the fact that the Bible itself never mentions masturbation specifically: the "sin" of Onan was clearly coitus interruptus, or early withdrawal to prevent conception. Still, this misconception persists.

Though it is not only Judaism, Muslim, or Christian teachings that seek to condemn the behavior.

parable · 08-18-2007, 05:38 PM

In response to DaveMatrix's comment that fantasizing about another person always lust....

1. If the person you are fantasizing about is your spouse, and what you are thinking of is something they would condone, but for some reason you can't be with them, it is debatable if this is lust.

2. Phone sex with you spouse, similar to above.

3. If one considers eating and drinking, eating is not gluttony and having a glass of wine is not drunkenness. That is, a legitimate use is not cancelled by an abuse. It may follow that masturbation is not necessarily sinful, e.g. if lust is not present, or if one imagines having loving sexual relations with one’s spouse.

4. In light of those possibilities, without condoning nor condemning masturbation, Dr. Doug Weiss, in his book “Sex, Men and God: A Godly Man’s Roadmap to Sexual Success”, describes two mental postures possible in masturbation. In the first mental posture, others are objectified and used for base gratification. This is clearly sinful and leads to unhealthy patterns of behavior. So much of our culture emphasizes this posture that it is hard for us to imagine any other. Indeed, some suggest it is not possible to avoid inappropriate thoughts, implying masturbation cannot be without sin.

In contrast to this, in the second mental posture suggested by Dr. Weiss, improper thoughts involving others are not entertained, and the experience, while sensual, is truly solitary. Dr. Weiss suggests that masturbation from this second posture does not carry the problems inherent in the first. That is, in itself, the sexual pleasure associated with self-stimulation is not necessarily sinful, so long as inappropriate thoughts are not indulged.

As the Y, its my favorite restaurant

DaveOrion · 08-18-2007, 05:40 PM

So all you guys just hold it in & cum in your sleep.

alicat · 08-18-2007, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parable

As for any agenda I may have, on a forum such as this it is to speak the truth in love with gentleness and respect.

Who's truth, yours, the Catholic church?

"The truth of the good news is simple, as alicat said "hearts were opened to a new understanding", where people have been "set free" to "sin no more"."

I'm sure that is a mistake, I said no such thing.

Ali

parable · 08-18-2007, 06:54 PM

The truth as I understand it, that's all. I merely mean to say that my hope is to be honest and call it like I see it, yet remain respectful of other people and what they believe. Indeed, I wish some in my church would do this, as I am often misunderstood. I can understand this, for I have had to reconcile my life as a research scientist with my faith; not something a lot of people can relate to I guess.

And I see now that in my rush to get to work, I attributed to you what I should have attributed to DaveMatrix. Sorry about that. Forgive me?

Parable

DaveOrion · 08-18-2007, 07:19 PM

Parable, please don't apologize for stating your opinion. You are allowed to voice an opinion, without worry of an overwhelming reprisal. If I have offended you in some way, I apologize. We are adults here and involved in sometimes heated debates, but I never meant to be offensive, just straightforward.

RenaissanceII · 08-18-2007, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parable

If you will note, I qualified my post with the phrase "biblical perspective". Anyone is free to consider the question from any other perspective they wish. My post is valid only in the context I prescribed.

The whole point with my post was to say that the Bible does not expressly addresss masturbation. Some argue that masturbation is a sin based on certain statements by Paul in Romans, for example. As I recall, and I haven't checked this, the OT concern about spilling one's seed on the ground is about pulling out before ejaculation to avoid conception when its your duty to produce an heir for your brother by impregnating his widow. Clearly, some of the customs from those days no longer apply. As for the new covenant, I'm all for grace and mercy rather than the law and justice. Only God knows for sure if what someone does is a sin, but we can get an idea by how what we do affects our relationship with Him. If what we do hinders our holding Him first and foremost in our lives, then guess what? Whatever it is that is more important than God has become an idol, and that's the problem.

I thought my post was clear enough that each person must come to terms with masturbation for themselves, and the principles I noted can serve as reasonable guides to those who actually care.

Parable

p.s. my dad was an ordained Episcopal priest with a masters in divinity and doctorate in ministry

I should have read it clearer.

for your dad.

alicat · 08-18-2007, 07:41 PM

Parable, to be honest and call it like you see it, while still being respectful of the other members is exactly what the TFP is about. It was a completely honest mistake that you miss-attributed a quote.

I offer my apologies for jumping to conclusions and assuming you were trolling, I would also like to welcome you to a truly awesome and rather unique place that exists on the internet.

I am now very curious how a religious research scientist manage's the conflict of science/faith and creationism/evolution. Care to divulge? Again, welcome.

Ali

parable · 08-18-2007, 09:27 PM

DaveMatrix, I was apologizing for misquoting Alicat when I should have cited you as the source for the rather good summary of what the gospel means. And no, you have not offended me at all.

Alicat, I accept your apology about trolling, and am happy to show you wrong about me in that respect. As for the so called conflict between science and faith, or evolution and creation, I have reconciled those by recognizing there is no conflict.

The conflict between science and faith is not a conflict between science per se and faith per se but rather between a mystical worldview and a philosophy that has been derived from the constraint of science known as methodological naturalism. That is, the rule of science is that it cannot go outside itself for its justification or to explain its observations. However, properly understood, that methodology applies only to scientific inquiry. To adopt it as one's worldview is as much a statement of faith as adopting the biblical worldview or any other. The conflict is between a worldview that insists there can be nothing more than can be reasonably infered from inductive or deductive rationality and a worldview that is open to things larger than what can be proven by logic, reason or experiment. This does not make the latter irrational, but rather it includes our ways of understanding things other than just the intellect. Intuition, insight, imagination, consciousness, faith.

As for creation/evolution, there is no conflict here either. If you subscribe to the biblical view, and you read it carefully, it clearly states that creation was over before the fall from the garden of eden, the fall which included the curse of this world being such a difficult place. Since that time, nothing new has been created, in the biblical sense. Rather, and I take this idea from Dr. Ken Milller's book, Finding Darwin's God, what we see happening is change in what was created. There is no denying that evolution is the foundation of modern biology, just as relativity and quantum mechanics are the foundations of physics and atomic theory is the foundation of chemistry and number theory the foundation of math. It is incorrect to say that evolution has created anything, for creation was over a long time ago. If the world looks old, or if life appears to change over time, that has no relevance to how the world was created or what the world was like before the fall. Miller says, what better way to curse the world than to make it a fight for survival every day, having to constantly adapt and struggle. Miller suggests evolution is just the operational principle of the curse.

As for planetary geology, another good book is the Genesis Question, by Dr. Hugh Ross, who has been able to reconcile the order of creation as recorded in genesis and what scientists believe about planetary formation. The key is to adopt the proper initial conditions and reference point for the narrator of Genesis. Rather than assume the narrator is speaking from before time and from a cosmic perspective, Ross argues the order of events can be understood differently by having the narrator on earth some time after the planet was formed. You'll have to read it for yourself because I can't do justice to his excellent treatment.

Finally, and perhaps this is the most important question, how do we solve the problem of evil? I refer you to Dr. Gregory Boyd's book "Satan and the problem of evil". He has resolved the problem of evil to my satisfaction. Here's the gist of his argument:

Evil is a necessary possibility in a world in which the following realities make love possible:

1. Love entails freedom. Freedom to choose otherwise is what gives meaning to choosing love.

2. Freedom entails risk. The risk is that someone may actually choose not to love.

3. Risk entails moral responsibility. People are responsible for their choices because of the consequences they bring. Choices other than love often lead to evil.

4. Moral responsibility is proportionate to the power to influence others. If you are powerful, you have more responsibility than someone who is inconsequential. In Christian theology, Satan was the most powerful agent, so he carries the most responsibility for rebelling against God.

5. The power to influence is irrevocable. God's gifts are genuine, not taken back if abused.

6. The power to influence is finite. God has established boundaries within which we operate, so the consequences of our poor decisions are not infinitely bad for everyone everywhere.

Thus, if you experience evil, it is because someone, including possibly yourself, chose to follow something other than God, and that choice was close enough to you that the consequences were within your sphere of influence.

The bottom line for me is, I have reached a place where the questions you mentioned are no longer important. Instead, I am now free to focus on what's important in life and faith, not these petty divisive distractions.

I don't mean to dismiss them as unimportant, for I struggled with them for years. However, I recognize something larger in science, that it is a means to understand creation and thereby gain insight into the mind of the Creator.

abaya · 08-19-2007, 05:17 AM

Parable, I agree with you about the fact that masturbation is, indeed, a sin... if you really are adhering to Christian dogma, it is hard to avoid this fact. If one is thinking lustful thoughts about someone other than one's own wife/husband, then one is indeed sinning. There are no two ways around that.

I started a thread about this in TFP a while back, asking Christians how they managed to make it "okay" to look at porn and lust freely about other women/men while still calling themselves observant Christians. The answers weren't terribly convincing, but it's interesting how people compartmentalize the issue. In other words, the answer went, "Okay, I'm not a perfect Christian, but God loves me anyway." So if Christ died for my sins, and I have accepted Christ as my savior, then I can sin (and some people do try to avoid it, but often give in) with the knowledge that I'm still going to heaven. That's how it works in their minds, I suppose.

For me, however, the realization that there were no two ways around this fact was one of the reasons that caused me to walk away from the church, and possibly the faith itself. It made no sense to me, on a variety of different levels, but mostly as a human being. First I stopped believing in hell, then heaven, then sin itself. Or rather, to me, "sin" became that which we do to hurt each other and ourselves. But to me, there are no eternal consequences for those injuries; only in our present lives, which is punishment enough. Karma, you might say.

Lusting occasionally after someone other than one's parter, however, has never occurred to me as being anything other than normal... and that is one of the many reasons I cannot continue calling myself any kind of Christian. It would give a very bad name to those who try *very* hard to avoid lustful thoughts and remain pure in heart, and who do truly avoid all kinds of sexual debauchery. I actually know people like that. They would, in fact, avoid this place like the plague.

parable · 08-19-2007, 07:35 AM

Abaya,

Not much time now (before heading to church, actually, then to the lab to pull a sample), but I just wanted to thank you for sharing your thoughts. I hope to respond in more detail to some of the things you said, because I can relate. Your experience is shared by many.

Funny how a topic like masturbation brings out so many things to think about. Its the same in science, topics that fall between those compartments you mentioned seem to test us in ways that the little boxes don't. They're so comfortable because we think we've determined them fully and no longer have to question what to do with them. The ones that fall between the cracks challenge our basic ideas the most. Like viruses, for example. They're not living organisms, yet they have very complex life-like structures and can co-opt living cells to reproduce. And it is a virus, HIV, that is killing us like never before because it has somehow become able to co-opt the very mechanisms we need to fight viral infection. Some ideas are like that, as well as some provisions of the tax code!

Parable

"I found the secret of the sea in meditation upon the dew drop." - Gibran

p.s. Gibran is one of my favorite poets.

Kpax · 08-19-2007, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnyto

I have asked myself that forever (well, since i know and practiced masturbation). Anyways, do you from your religious background or tendency (if any) feel like if your God is seeing you as a siner for masturbating, or is it normal == part of human pleasure or just a normal thing for us in this world? In conclusion, i am catholic and sometimes when i hear what the priest says about sins, i ask myself that every time

. Let me know if i need to like just leave it as is and not feel guilty about masturbating when i don't have my g/f with me (meaning you know...). Thanks.

Well, most Christian-based religions say that 'yes,' it is a sin. Besides that, if you are a believer, then you would be conscious of the "fact" (a "fact," if you believe in it), that those up in heaven can see everything you do. So, there's also the embarassment factor...

analog · 08-19-2007, 11:19 PM

Quote:

For example, because sexual climax involves the release of very powerful chemicals in the brain, it is possible to become addicted to these chemicals. The dynamics of such addiction are the same as other forms of addiction, i.e. escalation in dependence, leading to increasing demands for more intense experiences, which can lead to the use of pornography and even promiscuity, both of which are clearly sinful. Furthermore, because addiction soon becomes the most important thing in life, it may be considered a form of idolatry, another sin.

This is the steepest and most slippery slope I have ever seen. And idolatry can lead to replacing God with a false idol... oh. my. GOD... I'm going to start worshiping sperm?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by parable

The Bible is clear, sexual immorality is prohibited by God. A survey of scripture reveals numerous instances in which sexually impure people are described. See Gen19:5, Gen19:30-38, Gen34:1-2, Gen35:22, Gen38:9, Gen38:14-18, Num25:6-14, Judg16:1, 1Sam2:22, 2Sam11:4, 2Sam13:14, 2Sam16:22, Hos1-2, John4, John8:1-11, Luke7:36-39, 1Cor5:1 and Rev2:20. The specific issues are homosexuality, incest, rape, adultery, refusal to father a child by the wife of a dead brother, fornication, sex in the tabernacle and in public, and leading others to sexual immorality. Lev18-20 prohibit incest, adultery, fornication, prostitution, homosexuality, bestiality and sexual relations during menstruation. In all these, sexual relations with a partner are involved.

This is just one example, but for a person who proudly proclaims that he named himself after the ideal of "a story that relates a truth more profound than the story per se suggest superficially" you do A LOT of looking at bible verse and interpreting it literally.

That's a pretty glaring contradiction.

$0.02... Masturbation is not a sin, and won't lead you to being a prostitute or the antichrist.

abaya · 08-20-2007, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

$0.02... Masturbation is not a sin, and won't lead you to being a prostitute or the antichrist.

Who said it would lead to becoming a prostitute or the antichrist?

parable · 08-20-2007, 07:06 AM

Analog,

You said "...idolatry can lead to replacing God with a false idol..."

Idolatry IS the replacing of God with a false idol, and an idol is anything you worship, and worship can mean many things, but in its most basic meaning, its where you put your time, energy and devotion. Addictions qualify.

You said that I "proudly" proclaim my username; sorry if I came across that way to you. Text is inherently limited in conveying the state of one's heart, so I ask the favor of giving me the benefit of the doubt.

As for how I interpret scripture being a "glaring contradiction", none of the verses I cited were parables so that particular hermaneutic approach is not really fitting for these verses. Some scripture is best understood literally, some poetically, some allegorically, etc. However, if you have another way to understand any of the verses I cited, other than the "literal" reading, please feel free to share your insights.

As for your conclusion that masturbation is not a sin, I don't necessarily disagree with you, which I thought was pretty clear from my original post. Where did I lose you?

DaveOrion · 08-20-2007, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Who said it would lead to becoming a prostitute or the antichrist?

I do believe that analog was attempting a joke. I snickered....

spectre · 08-20-2007, 10:05 AM

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's considered a sin. 10 years of Catholic schooling, and I remembered the quote and was able to find it thanks to google:

"Then Judah said to Onan, 'Unite with your brother's widow in fulfillment of your duty as brother-in-law, and thus preserve your broher's line.' Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother's widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the lord." Genesis 38: 8-10

People back then thought of semen as a seed. To them, it was a very small baby waiting to be "planted" in the womb where it would grow. To waste the sperm was to kill a baby. Therefore, pulling out, as is the case in the quote, or masturbating would be considered a sin.

I so enjoy being an atheist that can quote scripture.

DaveOrion · 08-20-2007, 10:12 AM

Many have tried to lay the preverbial 'guilt trip' on people for masturbating. You can accept the guilt or not, I personally never feet guilty.

I do recall the scriptural referenece that basically says, if you've thought about committing adultery, then you have done it and have sinned. When I was married, I did masturbate and think of other women, but not about actually having an affair. A fine line but still....I didnt consider it a sin, I didnt feel guilty, and I reject the whole guilt trip surounding this.

Bill O'Rights · 08-20-2007, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

I reject the whole guilt trip surounding this.

Well, when you scrape away all of the hoopla, that's what it's all about, isn't it? One big ol' guilt trip?

abaya · 08-20-2007, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

I didnt consider it a sin, I didnt feel guilty, and I reject the whole guilt trip surounding this.

Ah, I find it makes even more sense to reject the whole *religion* surrounding this, but that's just where I'm at these days.

Btw, all my words about this are reflections on what I believed (in the past) and was taught as an evangelical. In my present mode, I think all forms of healthy sexual expression are great... people should have sex, masturbate and enjoy it, they should not consider it a sin, and they should not feel guilty. So I am definitely not trying to induce guilt.

But I AM trying to understand how other Christians make these two behaviors (masturbation vs. imitation of Christ) work logically, within the confines of a faith that says the two are mutually exclusive. It boggles me... it always has.

"Imitate Christ." How do Christians strive to imitate Christ when masturbation clearly requires lustful thoughts and/or debauchery-filled images? Unless I am missing something about masturbation (or Christianity), which I am definitely open to talking about.

spectre · 08-20-2007, 12:14 PM

abaya, the biggest problem is that most people go to church and are bored for an hour, and whatever they're told is what they believe. Most never bother to read the bible or even think about any of it. And a lot of the ones that do take everything literally. I remember a religion teacher in high school who used to say, "the reason the dinosaurs went extinct is because they couldn't fit on the ark." What was funny was, if you told the priests half the crap he'd say, they'd shake their heads in amazement because they couldn't believe anyone would believe that.

DaveOrion · 08-20-2007, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

"Imitate Christ." How do Christians strive to imitate Christ when masturbation clearly requires lustful thoughts and/or debauchery-filled images? Unless I am missing something about masturbation (or Christianity), which I am definitely open to talking about.

Simple, I dont consider the images I conjure in my mind to be debaucherous in any way. Making Love to a woman is a beautiful & pleasurable experience, and isnt gross, nasty, debaucherous, sinful, lecherous, or distasteful in the least. To lust is a natural part of being human.

parable · 08-20-2007, 02:10 PM

Spectre,

As was clarified previously, the passage about Onan is not about masturbation, but rather withdrawl before ejaculation to avoid providing an heir for a dead brother by impregnating his widow.

The idea that masturbation is morally equivalent to abortion is not found in scripture. Certainly its not the case for female masturbation.

For your consideration:

The original question has three parts.

1) If you are into your religion,
2) is it a sin
3) to masturbate?

The question does not specify which religion, so anyone may reasonably respond from any religious perspective. That the discussion seems to presume a christian framework of understanding is quite limiting, don't you agree? I would love to hear from others who hold different faiths.

The question asks about sin, so in order to answer, sin must somehow be defined. In some religions, the concept of sin may not exist, or sin may be understood in ways that are different from Christianity, Judaism or Islam. In a religion that does not recognize sin, masturbation cannot be a sin, yes?

The question asks about masturbation, but clearly from the diversity of opinion about what that means or what that must necessarily entail, even this part of the question must be clarified. Some people cannot imagine masturbation without fantasy involving another person, so for them, since lust is always involved, perhaps even by definition, masturbation is sinful by virtue of the lust. For those who can masturbate without such fantasy or lust, what then?

As for atheists, in the classic sense of the word, I enjoy discourse with them for I find they have reached their positions through principles and reason, and they challenge the faithful to examine their own assumptions and reasoning, something that is desperately needed these days. Certainly anyone may quote scripture, but my hope is they do it with flare

Peace,

Parable

abaya · 08-20-2007, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parable

For those who can masturbate without such fantasy or lust, what then?

I'd say that according to scripture, they have a free pass to masturbate as much as they'd like.

Once again, as I understood it, the problem with masturbation (male or female) was not spilling of bodily fluids, nor the act itself: it is what goes on in the mind during the act. If one can discipline the mind to not think about having sex with other people (other than one's wife), then hey, that appears to be sanctioned within Christianity. I've just never known very many people (including myself) who could manage to accomplish that feat. It is, as I and DaveMatrix have agreed, altogether HUMAN to lust, and indeed, to masturbate (gasp!). But I have a feeling that the church (any mainstream one, at least) would not agree.

As I had it, being part of the body of Christ involves treating your body as you would treat his own; to not be simply human, but to strive to be holy and not of this world. It also involves seeing, thinking about, and treating other women/men as sisters/brothers "in Christ" (other than your wife/husband), and not encouraging impure thoughts about them. Disciplining the mind, once again, and not letting the body rule. Rather Cartesian, isn't it...

To avoid the things of this world, to try and be like Christ, sacrificing the indulgences of the body to the Cross and striving always to have control over the "natural," one might say "human" impulses. That is what I understood to be the Christian walk. Pornography seems to have no place in that worldview (not saying that masturbation cannot happen without pornography, but I think we'd all agree here that the two are OFTEN intertwined).

Parable: I was just discussing this with my husband, and commenting that I think serious Muslims (not fanatical ones) are most likely held to the same kind of accountability (via the Koran and other believers) as serious Christians are, by the Bible/New Testament. Many of them take their laws quite literally as well, and I respect them for that (and of course, there are just as many who couldn't care less, as with any religion unfortunately).

Now Buddhists, that's another discussion altogether.

parable · 08-20-2007, 04:41 PM

Within the Christian context, the problem with legalism is well established, no one can actually live up to its requirements, and therefore no one is righteous. This is why Jesus did what he did, but that's another topic.

For example, if adultery is grounds for divorce, and lust in one's heart is morally equivalent to adultery, the lust is grounds for divorce. The point is not to divorce over lust, but instead to show how high God's standards are for righteousness, and hence convict us of our need for His, by Him imparting it to us somehow, and thereby eliminate the need for us to be experience GUILT, which has been mentioned several times by others. They are correct, living under guilt is no way to live.

This of course leads to the question you raised earlier, Abaya, about how Christians seem to lead hypocritical lives. Im sure many do. While I can only speak for myself, the point is that striving to live according to godly principles is not the means to our forgiveness or salvation, but instead the desire to do so is the fruit of the grace we have received, the gratitude we express when we try to be obedient to the law of love. Part of that law is to have compassion, forgiveness and acceptance regardless how well someone lives up to God's standards, including oneself. I note that one need not live an ascetic life, full of denial and suffering, in order to please God.

I suggest John Piper's book Desiring God: Meditations of a Christian Hedonist.

Parable

Infinite_Loser · 08-20-2007, 09:27 PM

^I think I like this guy (Or girl).

Willravel · 08-20-2007, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spectre

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's considered a sin. 10 years of Catholic schooling, and I remembered the quote and was able to find it thanks to google:

"Then Judah said to Onan, 'Unite with your brother's widow in fulfillment of your duty as brother-in-law, and thus preserve your broher's line.' Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother's widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the lord." Genesis 38: 8-10

People back then thought of semen as a seed. To them, it was a very small baby waiting to be "planted" in the womb where it would grow. To waste the sperm was to kill a baby. Therefore, pulling out, as is the case in the quote, or masturbating would be considered a sin.

I so enjoy being an atheist that can quote scripture.

Right there with ya. This is one of those situations where you say:
"So you think abortion is wrong? Masturbation is abortion. Go bomb your nuts."

abaya · 08-21-2007, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parable

While I can only speak for myself, the point is that striving to live according to godly principles is not the means to our forgiveness or salvation, but instead the desire to do so is the fruit of the grace we have received, the gratitude we express when we try to be obedient to the law of love. Part of that law is to have compassion, forgiveness and acceptance regardless how well someone lives up to God's standards, including oneself. I note that one need not live an ascetic life, full of denial and suffering, in order to please God.

Parable, I agree with what you say here, and most of the serious Christian friends I have do strive to live according to those principles. They are outstanding models of the faith and pillars of their church communities, and are some of the most compassionate people I know. They walk the walk, not just talk the talk, out of the gratitude that you express (the fruit of grace). Within that grace, they try very hard to avoid any kind of sexual immorality, whether they are single or married, and I know that for the most part, they succeed. Their self-discipline and surrender of their minds and bodies to Christ is truly beyond belief. They are not hypocrites, even if they are not perfect.

But the hypocrisy I am talking about is not the fact that Christians fail to attain perfection. That is a very clear human trait to me, and needs no further explanation. The kinds of Christians (Muslims, Buddhists, what have you) I respect are people who strive, with as many spiritual/mental/emotional resources as possible, to avoid temptation to whatever their religion says is "sin." And even if they fail, I can respect the fact that they are constantly trying to avoid ensnaring themselves, even if they are not living ascetic lives. I agree with you that denial and suffering are not necessary for pleasing God, and in fact he calls his people to rejoice, to celebrate life, to ENjoy as much as possible. But wouldn't you at least agree that some kind of steady discipline of the self/body/thoughts is necessary, for at least *trying* to grow closer to Christ; to not just follow laws, but to always strive to please God with heart, soul, body, mind? I would say this is one of the centerpieces of the Christian walk, once salvation has been accepted, wouldn't you?

What puzzles and frustrates me, however, is when Christians place themselves right in the middle of temptation to sin, not even *trying* (very hard) to avoid the things that would cause them and others to stumble. They are not fleeing from temptation; they are running headlong into it. I find this kind of behavior very difficult to understand. In my understanding, if one is going to profess to be a Christian and allow one's life to be transformed into that of a witness to Christ, there is just no room for this kind of total indulgence in worldly things. Struggling to overcome it, yes... that, at least, is a form of trying to get the devil behind thee. But to turn *towards* temptation, instead of away from it... now, logically (as a Christian), that just doesn't make sense to me.

For example, does Piper say it's alright to look at pornography? If so, now that would be an interesting read... I'll have to take a look.

Baraka_Guru · 08-21-2007, 03:50 AM

The Jewish view isn't bad.

Although some sources take a more narrow view, the general view of halakhah is that any sexual act that does not involve sh'chatat zerah (destruction of seed, that is, ejaculation outside the vagina) is permissible. As one passage in the Talmud states, "a man may do whatever he pleases with his wife." (Nedarim 20b) In fact, there are passages in the Talmud that encourage foreplay to arouse the woman. (Nedarim 20a).

This means masturbation is fine, so long as it pleases your wife and you don't spill that seed by the time you've finished.

parable · 08-21-2007, 07:28 AM

Abaya, you said

"But wouldn't you at least agree that some kind of steady discipline of the self/body/thoughts is necessary, for at least *trying* to grow closer to Christ..."

Perhaps the steady discipline is fellowship with other believers with whom you are accountable, so they may encourage and support you in your walk. Also, if you endeavor to serve the purposes that God has in mind for you, you realize that you need His help to do those things. So, its important not to hinder your relationship with God by indulging things that alienate you from Him. I am convinced that temptation can only be resisted if there is a more appealing choice to be embraced. Otherwise, its inevitable because no one can simply resist something forever, there must be a proactive choice to do something else. For me, preserving a clean conscience is fundamental to being open to the blessings that God has for me and for others through me, and that is what I try to remember when I struggle with temptation. I believe this is what scripture is talking about when it promises that with every temptation, there is always a way out, a choice for something else.

You said

"What puzzles and frustrates me, however, is when Christians place themselves right in the middle of temptation to sin, not even *trying* (very hard) to avoid the things that would cause them and others to stumble. They are not fleeing from temptation; they are running headlong into it. I find this kind of behavior very difficult to understand."

I believe it is understandable as a failure to have alternatives in mind that are more appealing. It takes an honest person to admit that temptation is all about selfishness. In my experience, the process of becoming more Chist-like is characterized by becoming less attached to selfishness, liberated from the constraints of having it be about me all the time.

You asked, "does Piper say it's alright to look at pornography?"

I don't think so. Piper's thesis is that our natural desires were placed within us to drive us to God, because they remain unfulfilled so long as we attempt to satisfy them with things other than God. As CS Lewis once said

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."

As for porn, here's my view:

See pornography.
See those who have been used to produce it.
See humiliation and degradation.
See in them the opportunity for compassion and love.

See pornography.
See those who profit from it.
See perversion and greed.
See in them the wicked desire to lead others into addiction.

See pornography.
See those who have been seduced by it.
See self-loathing, isolation and dispair.
See in them their secret shame.

See pornography.
See those who have lost a loved one to it.
See heartache.
See in them the pain of betrayal.

See pornography.
See those who help in recovery from it.
See dedication, training and experience.
See in them a promise of freedom.

See pornography.
See those who fight against it.
See courage to take a stand.
See in them a hope to overcome.

See pornography.
See the alternative.
Choose.

Parable

abaya · 08-21-2007, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parable

Perhaps the steady discipline is fellowship with other believers with whom you are accountable, so they may encourage and support you in your walk. Also, if you endeavor to serve the purposes that God has in mind for you, you realize that you need His help to do those things. So, its important not to hinder your relationship with God by indulging things that alienate you from Him. I am convinced that temptation can only be resisted if there is a more appealing choice to be embraced. Otherwise, its inevitable because no one can simply resist something forever, there must be a proactive choice to do something else. For me, preserving a clean conscience is fundamental to being open to the blessings that God has for me and for others through me, and that is what I try to remember when I struggle with temptation. I believe this is what scripture is talking about when it promises that with every temptation, there is always a way out, a choice for something else.

Parable, it seems that we are in agreement after all, except that you're just much more compassionate than I am towards hypocritical Christians. If I get you right, you think masturbation without lust is fine (if possible), but pornography is wrong... for Christians. I can jive with that. I just don't know how many people try *earnestly* to live by it.

To me, if you (general "you," not you specifically) are going to step up and call yourself a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, whatever... then you'd better mean it. Obey the rules, not because they're rules, but because you love the Being who made them, and because you believe they were made for your own well-being and that of others. Don't tempt yourself. Don't even go near the edge. Stay well away from it. Or am I missing something entirely about how Christians are supposed to act towards temptation?

Now, as for your comments about pornography. (Perhaps this is a threadjack, but I don't know.) I agree with them for the most part... a TON of porn is very bad stuff, and is humiliating/degrading/greedy/self-loathing etc. However, there is one porn producer I have seen whose work does not fit into any of the categories you mention. It's called Comstock Films, and their porn is basically the taping of real couples having sex, willfully, soberly, as realistic as it gets. There is no airbrushing, no scripting, no stupid music, no drug and alcohol use, no one in pain or humiliation, nothing secret or perverted. It's just plain old regular sex.

I don't know if that fits into your definition of "ethical pornography" (I am not sure if there is space for such a concept, as a Christian, for the reasons we went over earlier), but for a non-Christian such as myself who is very conscious of the abuses of the porn industry, I like this stuff. I see it as an alternative for me, though more in a secular humanist sense than a spiritual one. But that's just my perspective.

Thanks for the exchange, btw. Sometimes it's nice to have a discussion about religion and sexuality that isn't loaded down with annoying assumptions on both sides. Perhaps this fits more in "Philosophy" than "Sexuality" now, heh.

Plan9 · 08-21-2007, 10:51 AM

Catholics can beat off just as long as they give themselves the old blueballs? Yikes.

...

MacGyver is my god. He says its okay to punch the little Crompsin likes it owes me money, but suggests that I should do it with weird combinations of common household items and incorporate duct tape whenever possible.

Bill O'Rights · 08-21-2007, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parable

See pornography.
See the alternative.
Choose.

Pornography's got all sorts of alternatives.
Today, I think that I might "choose" girl on girl.

parable · 08-21-2007, 12:52 PM

Baraka_Guru,

You said "This means masturbation is fine, so long as it pleases your wife and you don't spill that seed by the time you've finished."

What if your wife has been surgically sterilized, so that conception is not possible? That is, at that point her vagina is simply a repository, functionally the same as the ground, is it not? Or, perhaps she has gone through menopause, is there a difference?

What is the logic here? Does oral sex qualify as not spilling the seed?

I'm not trying to be flippant, rather just seeing what the limits are.

Also, I rather like the quote you put as your signature:

"Humankind cannot bear much reality."—T. S. Eliot

Philip K. Dick said something similar...."Sometimes the appropriate response to reality is to go insane".

Parable

DaveOrion · 08-21-2007, 01:32 PM

Lets see if I have all the rules down for Christianity, you can masturbate if you like, but you cant think lustful thoughts (quite the conundrum there). You can also beat off with your wife present, but you must cum in her vagina...or is that Judaism??? If you're unmarried I suppose you can spill your seed, but you must remain vigilant over your thoughts. Don't think about a penis or vagina whatever you do.... just think of little lambs frolicking in a meadow.

What one might consider a Christian life, others may consider an unwinnable attempt at perfection before God. All our righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord, Isaiah. All of it.

I'm so glad that Grace is laid before us, and although you dont deserve it, you get it anyway.

08-18-2007, 02:36 PM	#81 (permalink)
alicat Baffled Location: West Michigan	While the post that revived this 4 year old thread was very well written and had some interesting information, to me it seems a little on the verge of prosthelytizing. For someone with the screen-name "Parable", who just joined and with only one post to a forum like TFP and in Sexuality, I can only think "troll". I'm just sayin'. However, it was a great thread I didn't read in the past, please carry-on. As a former catholic my only imput is I don't subscribe to any religion and therefore if you want to rub one out, be you female or male, again carry-on. Ali __________________ 'Beware the Jabberwock, my son! The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun, The frumious Bandersnatch!'--Jabberwocky, Lewis Carroll "You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late."--Ralph Waldo Emerson

08-18-2007, 03:03 PM	#83 (permalink)
bloody_rose20 Crazy Location: In Vermont	I can tell you, I am in no way under the influence of "god". So my religion would not say that it is a sin to masturbate. Masturbating is a normal thing to do. Everyone does it even if they won't admit it. SO don't worry about it and get your rocks off guilt free lol __________________ "The only way to enjoy life, is to try different things, and take risks. Sometimes you just have to jump in with both feet and hope for the best "

08-18-2007, 03:21 PM	#84 (permalink)
parable Upright	the deeper issue My user name is Parable because I like the idea of a parable, i.e. as a story that relates a truth more profound than the story per se suggest superficially. I view my own life as such a story. As for any agenda I may have, on a forum such as this it is to speak the truth in love with gentleness and respect. I am Christian, but my purpose here is not to convert anyone to anything. That is between each person and their creator. My hope is that people will know me by how my actions match my words. If I may, I'd like to respond to a statement by alicat. I'm not attempting to prosethelytize, just articulate my understanding of theology. The truth of the good news is simple, as alicat said "hearts were opened to a new understanding", where people have been "set free" to "sin no more". But, its not because that's what their hearts told them to do, or that the law told them, but rather because they were given the righteousness of Christ when they accepted what He did on their behalf, in full completion of the law's requirements. He did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it and more. By this I mean, while the greatest commandments were "to love God" and "to love others as yourself", Jesus went one further when He issued the New Commandment, "to love each other as I have loved you". How does this relate to masturbation? Its kinda hard to fantasize about someone if you are loving them as God does. So, if masturbation does not involve lust for another person, the bible says nothing about solitary sex. That is, there is nothing inherently sinful about inducing yourself to orgasm so long as you're not USING another person in a selfish way in your mind or heart when you do it. The deeper issue is dehumanization of others. This is unhealthy because those who would use others for selfish reasons must distinguish themselves from the rest of humanity in order to justify taking advantage of them. That is, if you're a guy and you fantasize about a woman, your sort of ignore the fact she is someone's daughter, sister, mother or wife. And if you would not wish for your sister, daughter, mother or wife to be used like this by someone else, then perhaps that should inform your own conduct.

08-18-2007, 03:30 PM	#85 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Huh.....Hello.....Fantasizing while masturbating always involves lust for another person....at least that's been my personal experience while masturbating....its not like I think about God and masturbate. I think about a beautiful, hot, sexy woman, with her legs spread wide open, and my tongue delving oh so deep between those hot moist lips, till I find that button of love to tease and please till she just cant take it anymore.......... __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

08-18-2007, 05:40 PM	#88 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	So all you guys just hold it in & cum in your sleep. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

08-18-2007, 05:38 PM	#87 (permalink)
parable Upright	In response to DaveMatrix's comment that fantasizing about another person always lust.... 1. If the person you are fantasizing about is your spouse, and what you are thinking of is something they would condone, but for some reason you can't be with them, it is debatable if this is lust. 2. Phone sex with you spouse, similar to above. 3. If one considers eating and drinking, eating is not gluttony and having a glass of wine is not drunkenness. That is, a legitimate use is not cancelled by an abuse. It may follow that masturbation is not necessarily sinful, e.g. if lust is not present, or if one imagines having loving sexual relations with one’s spouse. 4. In light of those possibilities, without condoning nor condemning masturbation, Dr. Doug Weiss, in his book “Sex, Men and God: A Godly Man’s Roadmap to Sexual Success”, describes two mental postures possible in masturbation. In the first mental posture, others are objectified and used for base gratification. This is clearly sinful and leads to unhealthy patterns of behavior. So much of our culture emphasizes this posture that it is hard for us to imagine any other. Indeed, some suggest it is not possible to avoid inappropriate thoughts, implying masturbation cannot be without sin. In contrast to this, in the second mental posture suggested by Dr. Weiss, improper thoughts involving others are not entertained, and the experience, while sensual, is truly solitary. Dr. Weiss suggests that masturbation from this second posture does not carry the problems inherent in the first. That is, in itself, the sexual pleasure associated with self-stimulation is not necessarily sinful, so long as inappropriate thoughts are not indulged. As the Y, its my favorite restaurant

08-18-2007, 06:54 PM	#90 (permalink)
parable Upright	What is truth? My apologies. The truth as I understand it, that's all. I merely mean to say that my hope is to be honest and call it like I see it, yet remain respectful of other people and what they believe. Indeed, I wish some in my church would do this, as I am often misunderstood. I can understand this, for I have had to reconcile my life as a research scientist with my faith; not something a lot of people can relate to I guess. And I see now that in my rush to get to work, I attributed to you what I should have attributed to DaveMatrix. Sorry about that. Forgive me? Parable

08-18-2007, 07:19 PM	#91 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Parable, please don't apologize for stating your opinion. You are allowed to voice an opinion, without worry of an overwhelming reprisal. If I have offended you in some way, I apologize. We are adults here and involved in sometimes heated debates, but I never meant to be offensive, just straightforward. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

08-18-2007, 07:41 PM	#93 (permalink)
alicat Baffled Location: West Michigan	Parable, to be honest and call it like you see it, while still being respectful of the other members is exactly what the TFP is about. It was a completely honest mistake that you miss-attributed a quote. I offer my apologies for jumping to conclusions and assuming you were trolling, I would also like to welcome you to a truly awesome and rather unique place that exists on the internet. I am now very curious how a religious research scientist manage's the conflict of science/faith and creationism/evolution. Care to divulge? Again, welcome. Ali __________________ 'Beware the Jabberwock, my son! The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun, The frumious Bandersnatch!'--Jabberwocky, Lewis Carroll "You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late."--Ralph Waldo Emerson

08-18-2007, 09:27 PM	#94 (permalink)
parable Upright	faith/science, creation/evolution, evil DaveMatrix, I was apologizing for misquoting Alicat when I should have cited you as the source for the rather good summary of what the gospel means. And no, you have not offended me at all. Alicat, I accept your apology about trolling, and am happy to show you wrong about me in that respect. As for the so called conflict between science and faith, or evolution and creation, I have reconciled those by recognizing there is no conflict. The conflict between science and faith is not a conflict between science per se and faith per se but rather between a mystical worldview and a philosophy that has been derived from the constraint of science known as methodological naturalism. That is, the rule of science is that it cannot go outside itself for its justification or to explain its observations. However, properly understood, that methodology applies only to scientific inquiry. To adopt it as one's worldview is as much a statement of faith as adopting the biblical worldview or any other. The conflict is between a worldview that insists there can be nothing more than can be reasonably infered from inductive or deductive rationality and a worldview that is open to things larger than what can be proven by logic, reason or experiment. This does not make the latter irrational, but rather it includes our ways of understanding things other than just the intellect. Intuition, insight, imagination, consciousness, faith. As for creation/evolution, there is no conflict here either. If you subscribe to the biblical view, and you read it carefully, it clearly states that creation was over before the fall from the garden of eden, the fall which included the curse of this world being such a difficult place. Since that time, nothing new has been created, in the biblical sense. Rather, and I take this idea from Dr. Ken Milller's book, Finding Darwin's God, what we see happening is change in what was created. There is no denying that evolution is the foundation of modern biology, just as relativity and quantum mechanics are the foundations of physics and atomic theory is the foundation of chemistry and number theory the foundation of math. It is incorrect to say that evolution has created anything, for creation was over a long time ago. If the world looks old, or if life appears to change over time, that has no relevance to how the world was created or what the world was like before the fall. Miller says, what better way to curse the world than to make it a fight for survival every day, having to constantly adapt and struggle. Miller suggests evolution is just the operational principle of the curse. As for planetary geology, another good book is the Genesis Question, by Dr. Hugh Ross, who has been able to reconcile the order of creation as recorded in genesis and what scientists believe about planetary formation. The key is to adopt the proper initial conditions and reference point for the narrator of Genesis. Rather than assume the narrator is speaking from before time and from a cosmic perspective, Ross argues the order of events can be understood differently by having the narrator on earth some time after the planet was formed. You'll have to read it for yourself because I can't do justice to his excellent treatment. Finally, and perhaps this is the most important question, how do we solve the problem of evil? I refer you to Dr. Gregory Boyd's book "Satan and the problem of evil". He has resolved the problem of evil to my satisfaction. Here's the gist of his argument: Evil is a necessary possibility in a world in which the following realities make love possible: 1. Love entails freedom. Freedom to choose otherwise is what gives meaning to choosing love. 2. Freedom entails risk. The risk is that someone may actually choose not to love. 3. Risk entails moral responsibility. People are responsible for their choices because of the consequences they bring. Choices other than love often lead to evil. 4. Moral responsibility is proportionate to the power to influence others. If you are powerful, you have more responsibility than someone who is inconsequential. In Christian theology, Satan was the most powerful agent, so he carries the most responsibility for rebelling against God. 5. The power to influence is irrevocable. God's gifts are genuine, not taken back if abused. 6. The power to influence is finite. God has established boundaries within which we operate, so the consequences of our poor decisions are not infinitely bad for everyone everywhere. Thus, if you experience evil, it is because someone, including possibly yourself, chose to follow something other than God, and that choice was close enough to you that the consequences were within your sphere of influence. The bottom line for me is, I have reached a place where the questions you mentioned are no longer important. Instead, I am now free to focus on what's important in life and faith, not these petty divisive distractions. I don't mean to dismiss them as unimportant, for I struggled with them for years. However, I recognize something larger in science, that it is a means to understand creation and thereby gain insight into the mind of the Creator.

08-19-2007, 05:17 AM	#95 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	Parable, I agree with you about the fact that masturbation is, indeed, a sin... if you really are adhering to Christian dogma, it is hard to avoid this fact. If one is thinking lustful thoughts about someone other than one's own wife/husband, then one is indeed sinning. There are no two ways around that. I started a thread about this in TFP a while back, asking Christians how they managed to make it "okay" to look at porn and lust freely about other women/men while still calling themselves observant Christians. The answers weren't terribly convincing, but it's interesting how people compartmentalize the issue. In other words, the answer went, "Okay, I'm not a perfect Christian, but God loves me anyway." So if Christ died for my sins, and I have accepted Christ as my savior, then I can sin (and some people do try to avoid it, but often give in) with the knowledge that I'm still going to heaven. That's how it works in their minds, I suppose. For me, however, the realization that there were no two ways around this fact was one of the reasons that caused me to walk away from the church, and possibly the faith itself. It made no sense to me, on a variety of different levels, but mostly as a human being. First I stopped believing in hell, then heaven, then sin itself. Or rather, to me, "sin" became that which we do to hurt each other and ourselves. But to me, there are no eternal consequences for those injuries; only in our present lives, which is punishment enough. Karma, you might say. Lusting occasionally after someone other than one's parter, however, has never occurred to me as being anything other than normal... and that is one of the many reasons I cannot continue calling myself any kind of Christian. It would give a very bad name to those who try very hard to avoid lustful thoughts and remain pure in heart, and who do truly avoid all kinds of sexual debauchery. I actually know people like that. They would, in fact, avoid this place like the plague. __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran Last edited by abaya; 08-19-2007 at 07:48 AM.. Reason: Equal opportunity sinning

08-19-2007, 07:35 AM	#96 (permalink)
parable Upright	Gibran rocks! Abaya, Not much time now (before heading to church, actually, then to the lab to pull a sample), but I just wanted to thank you for sharing your thoughts. I hope to respond in more detail to some of the things you said, because I can relate. Your experience is shared by many. Funny how a topic like masturbation brings out so many things to think about. Its the same in science, topics that fall between those compartments you mentioned seem to test us in ways that the little boxes don't. They're so comfortable because we think we've determined them fully and no longer have to question what to do with them. The ones that fall between the cracks challenge our basic ideas the most. Like viruses, for example. They're not living organisms, yet they have very complex life-like structures and can co-opt living cells to reproduce. And it is a virus, HIV, that is killing us like never before because it has somehow become able to co-opt the very mechanisms we need to fight viral infection. Some ideas are like that, as well as some provisions of the tax code! Parable "I found the secret of the sea in meditation upon the dew drop." - Gibran p.s. Gibran is one of my favorite poets.

08-20-2007, 07:06 AM	#100 (permalink)
parable Upright	some clarifications Analog, You said "...idolatry can lead to replacing God with a false idol..." Idolatry IS the replacing of God with a false idol, and an idol is anything you worship, and worship can mean many things, but in its most basic meaning, its where you put your time, energy and devotion. Addictions qualify. You said that I "proudly" proclaim my username; sorry if I came across that way to you. Text is inherently limited in conveying the state of one's heart, so I ask the favor of giving me the benefit of the doubt. As for how I interpret scripture being a "glaring contradiction", none of the verses I cited were parables so that particular hermaneutic approach is not really fitting for these verses. Some scripture is best understood literally, some poetically, some allegorically, etc. However, if you have another way to understand any of the verses I cited, other than the "literal" reading, please feel free to share your insights. As for your conclusion that masturbation is not a sin, I don't necessarily disagree with you, which I thought was pretty clear from my original post. Where did I lose you?

08-20-2007, 10:05 AM	#102 (permalink)
spectre Junkie	Actually, I'm pretty sure it's considered a sin. 10 years of Catholic schooling, and I remembered the quote and was able to find it thanks to google: "Then Judah said to Onan, 'Unite with your brother's widow in fulfillment of your duty as brother-in-law, and thus preserve your broher's line.' Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother's widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the lord." Genesis 38: 8-10 People back then thought of semen as a seed. To them, it was a very small baby waiting to be "planted" in the womb where it would grow. To waste the sperm was to kill a baby. Therefore, pulling out, as is the case in the quote, or masturbating would be considered a sin. I so enjoy being an atheist that can quote scripture. __________________ "Fuck these chains No goddamn slave I will be different" ~ Machine Head

08-20-2007, 10:12 AM	#103 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Many have tried to lay the preverbial 'guilt trip' on people for masturbating. You can accept the guilt or not, I personally never feet guilty. I do recall the scriptural referenece that basically says, if you've thought about committing adultery, then you have done it and have sinned. When I was married, I did masturbate and think of other women, but not about actually having an affair. A fine line but still....I didnt consider it a sin, I didnt feel guilty, and I reject the whole guilt trip surounding this. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

08-20-2007, 12:14 PM	#106 (permalink)
spectre Junkie	abaya, the biggest problem is that most people go to church and are bored for an hour, and whatever they're told is what they believe. Most never bother to read the bible or even think about any of it. And a lot of the ones that do take everything literally. I remember a religion teacher in high school who used to say, "the reason the dinosaurs went extinct is because they couldn't fit on the ark." What was funny was, if you told the priests half the crap he'd say, they'd shake their heads in amazement because they couldn't believe anyone would believe that. __________________ "Fuck these chains No goddamn slave I will be different" ~ Machine Head

08-20-2007, 02:10 PM	#108 (permalink)
parable Upright	onan is not relevant Spectre, As was clarified previously, the passage about Onan is not about masturbation, but rather withdrawl before ejaculation to avoid providing an heir for a dead brother by impregnating his widow. The idea that masturbation is morally equivalent to abortion is not found in scripture. Certainly its not the case for female masturbation. For your consideration: The original question has three parts. 1) If you are into your religion, 2) is it a sin 3) to masturbate? The question does not specify which religion, so anyone may reasonably respond from any religious perspective. That the discussion seems to presume a christian framework of understanding is quite limiting, don't you agree? I would love to hear from others who hold different faiths. The question asks about sin, so in order to answer, sin must somehow be defined. In some religions, the concept of sin may not exist, or sin may be understood in ways that are different from Christianity, Judaism or Islam. In a religion that does not recognize sin, masturbation cannot be a sin, yes? The question asks about masturbation, but clearly from the diversity of opinion about what that means or what that must necessarily entail, even this part of the question must be clarified. Some people cannot imagine masturbation without fantasy involving another person, so for them, since lust is always involved, perhaps even by definition, masturbation is sinful by virtue of the lust. For those who can masturbate without such fantasy or lust, what then? As for atheists, in the classic sense of the word, I enjoy discourse with them for I find they have reached their positions through principles and reason, and they challenge the faithful to examine their own assumptions and reasoning, something that is desperately needed these days. Certainly anyone may quote scripture, but my hope is they do it with flare Peace, Parable

08-20-2007, 04:41 PM	#110 (permalink)
parable Upright	is lust just cause for divorce? Within the Christian context, the problem with legalism is well established, no one can actually live up to its requirements, and therefore no one is righteous. This is why Jesus did what he did, but that's another topic. For example, if adultery is grounds for divorce, and lust in one's heart is morally equivalent to adultery, the lust is grounds for divorce. The point is not to divorce over lust, but instead to show how high God's standards are for righteousness, and hence convict us of our need for His, by Him imparting it to us somehow, and thereby eliminate the need for us to be experience GUILT, which has been mentioned several times by others. They are correct, living under guilt is no way to live. This of course leads to the question you raised earlier, Abaya, about how Christians seem to lead hypocritical lives. Im sure many do. While I can only speak for myself, the point is that striving to live according to godly principles is not the means to our forgiveness or salvation, but instead the desire to do so is the fruit of the grace we have received, the gratitude we express when we try to be obedient to the law of love. Part of that law is to have compassion, forgiveness and acceptance regardless how well someone lives up to God's standards, including oneself. I note that one need not live an ascetic life, full of denial and suffering, in order to please God. I suggest John Piper's book Desiring God: Meditations of a Christian Hedonist. Parable

08-20-2007, 09:27 PM	#111 (permalink)
Infinite_Loser Junkie Location: Lake Mary, FL	^I think I like this guy (Or girl). __________________ I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

08-21-2007, 03:50 AM	#114 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	The Jewish view isn't bad. Although some sources take a more narrow view, the general view of halakhah is that any sexual act that does not involve sh'chatat zerah (destruction of seed, that is, ejaculation outside the vagina) is permissible. As one passage in the Talmud states, "a man may do whatever he pleases with his wife." (Nedarim 20b) In fact, there are passages in the Talmud that encourage foreplay to arouse the woman. (Nedarim 20a). This means masturbation is fine, so long as it pleases your wife and you don't spill that seed by the time you've finished. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

08-21-2007, 07:28 AM	#115 (permalink)
parable Upright	Abaya, you said "But wouldn't you at least agree that some kind of steady discipline of the self/body/thoughts is necessary, for at least trying to grow closer to Christ..." Perhaps the steady discipline is fellowship with other believers with whom you are accountable, so they may encourage and support you in your walk. Also, if you endeavor to serve the purposes that God has in mind for you, you realize that you need His help to do those things. So, its important not to hinder your relationship with God by indulging things that alienate you from Him. I am convinced that temptation can only be resisted if there is a more appealing choice to be embraced. Otherwise, its inevitable because no one can simply resist something forever, there must be a proactive choice to do something else. For me, preserving a clean conscience is fundamental to being open to the blessings that God has for me and for others through me, and that is what I try to remember when I struggle with temptation. I believe this is what scripture is talking about when it promises that with every temptation, there is always a way out, a choice for something else. You said "What puzzles and frustrates me, however, is when Christians place themselves right in the middle of temptation to sin, not even trying (very hard) to avoid the things that would cause them and others to stumble. They are not fleeing from temptation; they are running headlong into it. I find this kind of behavior very difficult to understand." I believe it is understandable as a failure to have alternatives in mind that are more appealing. It takes an honest person to admit that temptation is all about selfishness. In my experience, the process of becoming more Chist-like is characterized by becoming less attached to selfishness, liberated from the constraints of having it be about me all the time. You asked, "does Piper say it's alright to look at pornography?" I don't think so. Piper's thesis is that our natural desires were placed within us to drive us to God, because they remain unfulfilled so long as we attempt to satisfy them with things other than God. As CS Lewis once said "If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." As for porn, here's my view: See pornography. See those who have been used to produce it. See humiliation and degradation. See in them the opportunity for compassion and love. See pornography. See those who profit from it. See perversion and greed. See in them the wicked desire to lead others into addiction. See pornography. See those who have been seduced by it. See self-loathing, isolation and dispair. See in them their secret shame. See pornography. See those who have lost a loved one to it. See heartache. See in them the pain of betrayal. See pornography. See those who help in recovery from it. See dedication, training and experience. See in them a promise of freedom. See pornography. See those who fight against it. See courage to take a stand. See in them a hope to overcome. See pornography. See the alternative. Choose. Parable Last edited by parable; 08-21-2007 at 09:14 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

08-21-2007, 10:51 AM	#117 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Catholics can beat off just as long as they give themselves the old blueballs? Yikes. ... MacGyver is my god. He says its okay to punch the little Crompsin likes it owes me money, but suggests that I should do it with weird combinations of common household items and incorporate duct tape whenever possible. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

08-21-2007, 12:52 PM	#119 (permalink)
parable Upright	the jewish view Baraka_Guru, You said "This means masturbation is fine, so long as it pleases your wife and you don't spill that seed by the time you've finished." What if your wife has been surgically sterilized, so that conception is not possible? That is, at that point her vagina is simply a repository, functionally the same as the ground, is it not? Or, perhaps she has gone through menopause, is there a difference? What is the logic here? Does oral sex qualify as not spilling the seed? I'm not trying to be flippant, rather just seeing what the limits are. Also, I rather like the quote you put as your signature: "Humankind cannot bear much reality."—T. S. Eliot Philip K. Dick said something similar...."Sometimes the appropriate response to reality is to go insane". Parable

08-21-2007, 01:32 PM	#120 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Lets see if I have all the rules down for Christianity, you can masturbate if you like, but you cant think lustful thoughts (quite the conundrum there). You can also beat off with your wife present, but you must cum in her vagina...or is that Judaism??? If you're unmarried I suppose you can spill your seed, but you must remain vigilant over your thoughts. Don't think about a penis or vagina whatever you do.... just think of little lambs frolicking in a meadow. What one might consider a Christian life, others may consider an unwinnable attempt at perfection before God. All our righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord, Isaiah. All of it. I'm so glad that Grace is laid before us, and although you dont deserve it, you get it anyway. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...