Gretsch Player

Well, I just want her to get her first consentual fling out of the way.

There are several reasons for this, but the conversation that made me decide that she needs to have one required fling went something like this:

Me: "Honey, if you had a fling this week, and I got home next week, I know you would tell me about it, but how would you tell me?"

She: "I don't know"

Me: "Would you cry when you told me?"

She: "Maybe"

Me: "But you would tell me, right?"

She: "Yes, of course. I promised I would and I would"

Me: "But you don't know if you would cry or not?"

She: "No"

There were a couple of other reasons, that I can't really get into now, that were making me start to think that she might need to have one fling and get it out of the way, but this conversation was the clincher.

Later I asked her: After you have that first fling, will the next one, even if it is years later, will it be easier to tell me about?

And she said: Oh yes, of course! It will be much easier.

That is when I told her that she needs to have one. After her required fling, she can have as few or as many as she likes, but she must have one.

As I said, there are a few other reasons. One other reason, a far less important reason, is that when she cheated on me, the sex was so bad. She said she deserved bad sex for doing something so immoral and stupid, but I told her she never deserves bad, boring sex. If she was going to risk our marriage, the sex should have at least been worth it.

But as I said, that is a less important reason. The reason above was the clincher, and there are two other reasons that I just cannot get into, but I can tell you that the other two reasons have nothing to do with me wanting to watch.

Gilda

First, I'm not getting into the value and stability of polyamorous marriages. I don't know enough about them to fairly judge, but I don't believe that my judgment is really relevant. What works for a couple is what works for them, even when it isn't something I'd be interested in.

However, I do have to take issue with your statment here. You know yourself better than anybody else here, so you can say with some certainty what your view of your marriage is. I won't dispute that. But to generalize that to everyone is simply inaccurate.

No one could ever promise that.

Complete nonesense. People can, and do promise just that in full sincerity.

To promise that means to say that you can see into the future and you know that there is no possible circumstance under which you would ever have sex with someone other than your chosen mate.

Again, nonsense. A promise isn't precognition, it's a commitment to behave in a certain way, a way of focusing yourself on what is important to you and profiding incentive to honor what is important. It's a statement of intent to do what it is in your ability to control to honor that promise. That we are imperfect and may not always be able to keep our commitments does not mean that making them is foolish. Having goals and ideals and striving to meet those goals and live up to those ideals is important.

It's just pure, traditionalist stupidity to me.

I'm happy for you that you've come to a realization about what is best for you and for your marriage. I'm not one to judge other people's relationships. I know of a family that consists of a triad, a married couple and the woman's transsexual girlfriend, and their child. Because it works for them, I have no problem with it.

I, however, am comitted to just one person and she to me. It isn't exactly "traditional" (I don't think anything about my family is really traiditional in the mainstream family structure way), but we are traditionally monogamous in that we don't, and won't sleep with others. It's not a matter of jealousy or insecurity or not being able to communicate with each other--we're very solid in all those areas--it's that we've decided that outside romantic relationships would detract from our core commitment to each other.

It's good that you've discovered that traditional monogamy doesn't work for you. You now have information that you lacked, which can only strengthen what you have (assuming your judgment on this is sound). But that monogamy doesn't work for you does not mean that it's unsuitable for others. It can, and does work, and it isn't stupid if it's what is best for the couple involved.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

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Cavalryman

Let me start by thanking you for opening this thread. I came across it while looking for others who are going through what I am. So, with that, I will give you a little bit about my wife and I and how we have negotiated a path very similar to yours. I haven't had time to read your entire thread, but I have read enough of the messages to understand and relate to where you are coming from. We have been together for 17 years and married for 15.

I am a soldier, currently in the National Guard, but I have been either in the Guard or Active Duty for 15 years. About 7 years ago, my wife revealed to me that she had had a sexual relationship with one of the wives of a soldier in my unit some 5 years previous. We were in Germany at the time, and spent an average of 6 months "in the field", or away from home. In those days, I was a very religious person who led a church group on post, and I never saw any of this going on. In fact, I was in bible studies with the woman involved, and years later, my wife told me the real reason she was in our apartment so much. To say the least, I was shocked and amazed that I could be so blind. I lead men in combat, and yet I was so poorly tuned into female needs, that I realized something was terribly wrong in my life. My whole perspective began to change, and much like the title of this forum, I began to evolve away from traditional thinking. I was a naive, religious young man when I first joined the military. Once I began to see the end result of religious fundamentalism, I began moving away from religion. I understand it's purpose in society, but I don't have much use for it after seeing cultures like Bosnia and Islamic Afghanistan. Religion, of course is one of the largest obstacles keeping us in line, or at least preventing us from living more progressive and enlightened lives. We came to a similar agreement about what you refer to as traditionalist stupidity.

We first began discussing the possibility of even considering something like letting people inside our relationship not long after the "revelation" circa 1999. We spent the next 5 years talking about it and exhausting every possible option if it were to ever present itself. We live in a very conservative region of the US, so the likelihood was doubtful anyway. About 2 years ago, while I was away again with the Army, my wife was better able to tell me what was going on in her life. We didn't have email when the first experience occurred, and she was too afraid to tell me 12 years ago. By 2004, email was so integrated into our lives, that communication was almost hard to go without. She told me that she wanted to pursue a relationship with a couple we had been friends and talking with since she and I had begun looking at evolving. I consented this time with rules that are almost word-for-word the same as yours.

It is good to see someone else with the same thought process. My thinking was that she should be safe, happy, and balanced. I also agree with your comment that we cannot possibly see decades down the road of life and think that a promise today will cover all of the life's experiences and maturation we go through as modern, educated adults.

I went on with the military schools I was in and she forged ahead. When I got home, she consented to my involvement (indeed she insisted), and I suddenly immersed myself into this foreign and new world. It was great at first, but the forces of society were close behind, and we began to tear apart as a result. We had spent 5 years discussing the role and nature of jealousy, but it is it's own force when you are dealing with it real-world. Not only that, but the other two involved were showing signs of strain, in particular the wife. She had been the most insistent about all of us getting involved, and yet my wife with her husband proved to be too much for her. The relationship deteriorated into shouting matches, and after a trip to their family farm in Minnesota, we cut it off. I am still friends with them to this day, but we all understand that it wasn't meant to be. The sex was incredible, with discussions of tantric spirituality and evolving human culture, but the aftermath was pure hell. That experience was harder than Ranger school will ever be.

Ironically, our marriage became much stronger as a result of that. We had the most and the best sex of our lives with each other during those months. My wife and I discovered that with experiencing another partner, there is a reclaiming process we had to go through very soon after. Making love to my wife afterward was as important to her as it was to me to confirm that we are and will always be the final arrangement. Hopefully this makes sense.

Now, I am in Afghanistan and we are back to the same discussions. This time it is a guy she works with, whom I know and like, and he is very much into martial arts, eastern philosophy, and healthy living. She has indicated she would like to pursue a relationship with him while I am here for a year. I am fine with the two being together, but all of this took an unexpected turn. In addition to your three rules, I have an additional one that if she becomes pregnant, our marriage is over. I have two kids with her (one boy, one girl), and I want to ensure they stay the focus of their parents. I will not ask her to split her time to prioritize between who's kids are important. I'll raise mine, and she will raise hers. This may come off as cold heartedness, but for me, it is a matter of dedication.

Now I know you are thinking she came up pregnant, but she did not. Indeed, she has not slept with him yet. Yet. What the unexpected turn was, though, turned out to be a sharp turn in her view of my role as a husband. She began to throw accusations at me (via email of course) about not being there to be a helping husband and father. It all was irrational to me, but I tried to understand her needs and see through what looked like a bunch of bullshit. In the end, it turned out her consciousness was weighing on her and I was the scapegoat for feeling of guilt. She was feeling guilty for wanting to pursue someone outside our marriage while I am in harm's way. While she wasn't pregnant (he is "fixed"), he has left his estranged wife, and my opinion is that the momentum started is a only a matter of time before they have sex. She is a very powerful, sexual woman, and while I can keep up with her when I am home, I like you, am away from home a lot. I provide everything I can for her, she has plenty of money for living and saving for the future, but I am not always there to pick up the kids from school, or go to soccer and football practices. She was so negative at one point, I began to go through an MDMP-like (military decision making process) process and outlined 3 options for us in the months to come. We could either 1) stay together and work through this experience, 2) legally separate, or 3) divorce. I laid out detailed, step by step taskings and procedures for her in each option along with a warning that life would not be easy for either of us under options 2 or 3. When we exhausted all the what-ifs and what-is-really-going-ons, she agreed that option one is what she wants.

I have worked to define what I have, and the closest term I can come to is what Wikipedia refers to as a "mono/poly relationship". I have a lot more aversion to taking another partner mostly due to my upbringing and social history. I have always been in all-males units and have had the military sexual harrassment policy hammered into my head for so long, I tend to avoid women. While I have had an open relationship as I mentioned, it was not a rewarding enough experience to really appeal to me. Hence the mono side. My wife, on the other hand, feels differently and is driven from inside to walk a different path from most of society. Hence the poly side. I know she has too much love to keep all to myself, and she has needs that I am not always present to satisfy. I write poetry, and enjoy long, philosophical emails, but words are not enough at times in our lives. Actions, sometimes are as important as words.

I commend you for your bravery. You are not alone, and while it may seem like it at times, there are others like us in this world. I guess I'm just mainly offering up my support and encouragement to keep on keeping on. As you indicated, our lives and marriages are much richer as a result. While what we are experiencing is nothing new, history is full of stories that our lives mimic. For us, though it is new, and it is very personal. We are Warriors of Love, really, and we are forging trails, like those throughout history before us, that I hope others will follow some day.

-Cavalryman

P.S.
I wanted to add a last-minute blip about the the societal non-acceptance. I knew going into this years ago that this is one of those sub-cultures that you accept must be kept under the surface. If anyone were to ask me about it, I have no problem discussing it, but I will not volunteer my details. I have a guy in my unit who has what I can only define as a swinging marriage. He always has a weary and slightly sad tone when he talks about it. He is very vocal about it, and yet I have never fealt the need to confide any similar experience. In truth, though, I don't have a similar experience. He has lamented on how taxing it can be to come home and not know who is going to be there when he walks in. His wife is in law school (late bloomer), and she demands the right to be free to do whatever. I, on the other hand, have never been exposed directly to swinging, and don't have any interest. My wife has only moved on her interests twice (this new one may be the third), and it is not without a significant investment of her time and energy to know the person(s). Bottom line, I accept that there are only certain places where even talking about this is possible. The other thing is I am secure enough in myself and our relationship that harsh, mean, or intentionally hurtful words are just "chatter". You take what good you can from this life and the rest is left by the wayside. One thing I know without hesitation is that life is short. Shorter for some than most, but it is not worth letting complete strangers have any more of my time than I choose to give them.

EleqTrizi'T

I'm sorry, but this is insulting. I know you're here because left-leaning forums didn't give you the response you wanted, but calling the terms of traditional marriage foolishness isn't any better.

Sure they can, didn't you during your vows?

Again, why are you insulting just about everyone? How is it that you have it right?

I don't believe that for a second. You just wanted to get the response here that you didn't get in your other forum posts.

Personally, I have ZERO problem with the way you choose to run your marriage. People can run their lives however they see fit, as far as I'm concerned.

But don't look down upon me, or call me "unenlightened". If you want people to be accepting of your type of marriage, you need to at LEAST be AS accepting of everyone else's. Because as of this moment, I'm more liberal about this than you.

My wife and I choose fidelity. And just like you say some open marriages have one spouse who's simply not interested in looking for outside sex, why can't a marriage have two people like that? Why is that such a stretch?

I KNOW my wife isn't looking, and neither am I. We both love what we have. Our relationship and sex life is incredibly strong. We've been together for 15 years and I still enjoy her in the sack as much as I did when we were teenagers. We're the best of friends, too.

Have we had our problems? Sure, serious ones, too. But we don't have outside sex. We don't go on dates with others. I'm not a jealous man (she'd be the first to tell you), but a spouse who does things to provoke jealousy (intentionally or inconsiderately) is another issue.

And truth is, **IF** she cheated on me, I'd forgive her at least once, because I'm not willing to lose half my life's history to one bad choice. I'd never tell her that up front, mostly because she'd be insulted that I'd even consider she would....and I don't think she ever would.

ratbastid

God, that's SO true.

To me it does. We've had the same experience. After being with other people, it's really important for us to sexually "touch base".

Thanks for sharing everything you shared. Particularly the part about how you're communicating more deeply--that's absolutely what we've found as well.

Be safe over there!

Cavalryman

Boy, this can be a tough crowd. I find it continually amazing how threatened people are about this subject. If EleqTrizi'T is that offended or insulted, find another thread and post away. It seems trendy to attack people from the secluded safety of a PC well out of range of return fire. My first impression was the same as yours when I finally had a real-world experience to speak from. I don't read your "traditionalist stupidity" comment as being thrown at those who disagree, it is simply a conclusion some of us have come to walking in our shoes down our pathway. I don't expect to see EleqTrizi'T anywhere close to the places my life has gone, but I don't hold that against the poster. Tolerance is something that is in short supply the world over. Believe me, after experiencing my limited contact with the Taliban, I have a much deeper understanding and respect for tolerant societies. Freedom, folks is not holding those you disagree with to the fire... or the hangman's noose.

-Cavalryman

For those who have fought for it freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

EleqTrizi'T

I attacked him? How? How did I express any intolerance?

Cavalryman

All of that comes across to me as combative.

Jozrael

I saw the OP's first comments as a bit inflammatory too, Cavalryman. I think he was just saying (forcefully, I'll admit) that what's right for him isn't right for everyone.

It sort of seemed that the OP looked down on those that didn't agree with him - traditionalist stupidity.

Then again, I happen to side more with EleqTrizi'T, so it might just be that I see things through the same lens as him, and you and the OP do the same. I don't think anyone's said anything particularly offensive yet. We'll just agree to disagree.

Cavalryman

I think that's the civil thing to do. Of course the OP referenced the vitriolic nature of those in the past who disagreed with his lifestyle choice. I too, have seen this and that is why I choose to keep it to a very close circle of friends. I don't want to offend or insult anyone with the way I live my life, but I also don't want people telling me I'm too far out of the norm. I spend enough time in an organization that demands conformity, when I come home to my quiet little house in my quiet little town, I want the freedom to live the way I choose. I also want the same for everyone in this thread.

For what it's worth...

EleqTrizi'T

It was, a little bit. But on the defensive. I was defending the way I choose to live my life as not foolishness, traditionalist stupity, or unenlightened, And it has nothing to do with what I've seen or done, as you've implied (which is also condescending and presumptuous, since you don't know me).

I saw it as completely unnecessary to attack monogamy to justify his own choices. That's NOT tolerance.

The OP said him and wife have agreed to terms that makes them happy. Bravo for them. But "traditionalist stupidy" works for me and mine, so bravo for me, too.

Cavalryman

Yes, bravo for you. Good boy. You're OK.

You and I have a similar accomplishment of 15 years with our wives. That is common ground and I commend anyone who keeps it together that long. That is sincere. Do with it what you will.

EleqTrizi'T

Thank-you, I appreciate that. It's too bad that 15 years is an accomplishment these days, but that's another topic.

hagatha

If this is what marriage looks like all the more reason not to do it. You say you're not jealous, but you refered to the other men in less than happy tones, so you're obviously not pleased with the situation.
I'm with the guy who says you like cuckholding.

__________________
Thats the last time I trust the strangest people I ever met....H. Simpson

Jozrael

Hagatha, can you rephrase please? Who's saying he likes cuckolding? (I'm probably just not seeing the reference somewhere in this topic, I read the beginning a while ago so it's a bit hazy).

(Oh, and btw, thank you for using that word, +1 to my vocabulary .)

McDuffie

This isn't true. You need to reread the thread. The man who his wife cheated with was referred to in less than friendly tones, but it was made very clear that he didn't like the man even before the cheating happened.

I have read the thread and I don't get the impression that "hot wife" or cuckholding has anything to with any of this at all. I just think that this couple (or these couples including the Army guy and his wife) have rejected traditionalism because it simply didn't work for them.

If something doesn't work, you abandon it and try something different. Makes sense to me.

Necrosis

The subject seems to stir emotions, but I have trouble understanding why.

I'm monogamous, but other people who swing, or whatever, don't bother me in the least. Maybe a great many wives perceive it as threatening, since they think their husbands envy that lifestyle.

Cavalryman

It has been a couple of weeks since I posted last, and I thought I'd share an interesting realization for me. My wife did finally have a night with her friend, and afterward, we went through some strain. The communication which is key to making something like this work, fell off sharply. Normally we would have been able to "touch base" as ratbastid so well articulated, but of course being 7,000 miles away makes that impossible. After several emails and some long IMs back and forth, she shared with me that she is not able to do this right now. Not being able to connect with me physically, like we've done in the past, caused too much confusion. She began to see me negatively again and felt too out of sorts to do any more with her friend. This may seem like nothing new to some out there, but I was surprised. This is a fascinating journey to be on, and when I finally get to take some R&R leave early next year (we're meeting in Europe), I think our reconnection time will be even more significant.

So for now, we have agreed to keep things simple and not create a foundation for trouble. Sharing it seems comes with limitations for some of us, and I will also admit that our putting this on hold for now makes my days easier to get through. I am counting the days till I can meet her in southern Germany.

ratbastid

That's part of the deal sometimes. You get to say what works for the two of you. Congratulations for facing it down and learning one thing that doesn't work.