The_Jazz

Last week I had a lunch conversation with some guys that I work with, and an interesting question came up. One of the guys in the office recently spent a few days in NYC with some folks that we do a fair amount of business with along with some friendly competitors. My coworker and one of the competitors ended up in a massage parlor at the end of a long night of drinking where my coworker got a handjob. Now, I went to this guy's wedding, our wives know each other, he's helped me out of some jams and vice verca. The way that he justfied the experience has actually made me pause and think about the whole thing. As best I remember, here's what he said:

"I just paid her to do something that I could have done myself. If I hadn't been out with David, I would have just gone back to the hotel, beaten off and gone to the airport (this was on his last night there and he had an early flight back). I pay people to do a lot of things for me that I can do myself like mow my lawn, do my laundry and clean my house, and I certainly could have done this myself too, but I chose not to."

Now I have never been unfaithful to my wife, and I have no intentions of ever testing the boundaries of infidelity, but I am interested in this from more of an intellectual piont than anything else. Given that I too pay people to do things that most of the population does for themselves (housekeeper, accountant, landscaper, general handyman, etc.), I am certainly familar with where he's coming from, but I'm on the fence about this one. Maybe I'm just overthinking this thing, but I'm having a problem forming an opinion about whether or not my coworker has cheated on his wife. Opinions?

Craven Morehead

I'm sure his wife would think its cheating. So it is.

Psycho Dad

Your coworker is rationalizing to make himself feel better about what he did. Were he to tell his wife that the lawn people were coming over to cut the grass he would get a different response than he would telling her that the tramp from the bar was coming over to pull on his meat.

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tecoyah

What defines cheating?


Your Spouse

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ratbastid

Does he plan to tell her? If so, it's not cheating.

Could be his agreement with his wife allows this sort of thing. In which case, maybe he was speaking the way he was to justify something else--a moral qualm about hiring sex, perhaps. Or maybe he doesn't want to share what his arrangement is in his marriage with you, and would rather look like a cheating husband than a participant in an open marriage. Trust me, in many circles that would be the more socially acceptable choice.

That said, I suspect it's cheating (by my definition). Just wanted to suggest some things to open your mind up a bit about it.

maleficent

If whatever a person has done has to be kept secret from their significant other, or they fear the repercussions of the significant other for the act - then it's cheating.

Any behavior at all can be rationalized away... just because you can rationalize it - doesn't make it right.

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Impetuous1

Oh, honestly you couldn't have bought his excuse. Having someone do something impersonal for you is hugely different than having someone do something you get sexual pleasure from. Tecoyah's right. Want to find out if he was cheating? Ask his wife.

ASU2003

Would he be ok with his wife paying some guy to get her off using his hand?

This would be my rule in a relationship. If one partner can do something, it is ok for the other one. Anal sex, swallowing fluids, flashing, looking at other girls/guys, dancing with girls/guys, kissing girls/guys, and everything else.

ShaniFaye

If he does it behind her back without her permission its cheating. period.

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la petite moi

It's cheating if you're going behind your spouse's back.

Sweetpea

exactly!

If you do not have permission from your spouse to do something with another person... wether it be exchange pics/sexual fantasies, or full on moving in together and having lotsa sex... if it's okay with your spouse and you are open and not hiding it... then it's not cheating.

cheating is when you lie, hide and hurt the people you love.

sweetpea

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Sweetpea

oh my god, this guy actually believes his own crock of shit... That is one of the lamest excuses i've heard... 'paying ppl to do things for me...' come on

that is cheating. and i bet his wife would be very hurt. What he did was wrong in my humble opinion.

sweetpea

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Toaster126

I would have thought this board wouldn't have been so hard line on this.

Cheating is whatever the people involved in the relationship decide it is. Deciding what cheating is for those people when you aren't in the relationship is hella presumptuous and judgemental.

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Aurakles

...perhaps, but when a person is concealing an act, then that person has decided, unilaterally, what is or is not cheating and thus it is not a mutual decision and clearly not a relationship built on trust or communication.

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jth

i think no matter what it should be something you realize..... gettin sexual gratification from someone that isn't yourself or from your SO is cheating. Some people can take that toextremes saying that porn is cheating, and that's perhaps a gray area. I personally don't think it's cheating to polish the knob when watching porn. But going to a massage parlor and getting a handjob? Please, this guy cheated on his wife and what's worse to me is he paid someone to do something he could have done himself... that makes it worse to me. He should have gone home and fired off some knuckle children out of the baby canon instead of getting someone else to for him. He wouldn't be trying to justify it to his friends with those terms if he didn't feel guilty about it. Then again I cannot speak for the guy.

ASU2003

This might be the grey area of cheating. I'd think she would be mad, but wouldn't break up over it. I'm sure there was no emotional connection, and the girl didn't get off from doing this to him.

But if he isn't telling his wife, then he is assuming that it isn't ok (probably because most women would consider it cheating). If they defined cheating as only having sex or oral without the other's knowledge, then he is fine. The pool boy or lawn mower guy might be getting some $$$ from his wife for some 'massages', and he would have to be ok with that.

Toaster126

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. It's extremely judgemental, though. Who are you to say what other people should be doing?

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shaman

Question for your buddy has he told his wife? If not, why not if it's not cheating?

analog

Bingo.

If you can't tell your spouse, it's cheating- anything else is just trying to rationalize cheating.

Borla

I wonder what would happen if some guy banged his wife, and she used the excuse that she has a vibrator or dildo she uses that he knows about, so he shouldn't complain if it's the real thing attached to another guy.......

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fyrehair

I say that the two ppl in the relationship are the ones that should decide what is/isn't cheating. Let's not judge other ppl's relationships.

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jth

Of course I'm bias to my own opinon. Perhaps it's how I was brought up but the idea of getting off thanks to someone else when you are married just doesn't click to me. I don't mean to be judgemental, unless these people have an open relationship where there is no problem with that sort of behaviour, then he can go ahead and do that until he turns blue in the face and that's fine. But for some reason (although we are hearing only one side of the story) that this guy is trying to justify his actions doesn't sound like someone who is at peace with their actions. Maybe he is, and so be it. I don't think any less of anyone because they do what they do.

I can only formulate my ethics on how I would feel if I had a SO who went to a massage parlor and paid someone 20 bucks (or however much it costs, I have no frame of reference) to get them off. It would be inexcusable to me. That's where I get that from. Everyone has their own lines in the sand. Cheating is indeed subjective to a fault perhaps. I'm a fairly liberal person but on something like marital fedelity it seems like it's very plain and obvious to me as a person, and I think that if someone did that to me as a SO then they would probably be single again as fast as I could tell them that fact in perhaps many more words involving some colourful language. Relationships should be based on trust, maybe the wife is totally cool with it and if so, awesome. If not, not so awesome.

Xazy

Right on! I would also add hopefully your own morals too.

Lucifer

If you'd be afraid to tell your spouse about it, it's cheating

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Ustwo

Ding ding ding we have the winner!

If your spouse doesn't mind you joining orgies, its not cheating. Likewise if she says getting a handjob is cheating it is cheating. I won't argue what is right, only that once you are married your sexual choices are no longer just your own.

Ask him if it would be ok if someone finger banged his wife to get her off.

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Ustwo

Ummm no one said other wise, the difference here is the guy didn't say 'my wife doesn't mind if I get handjobs' instead he was rationalizing it but I will assume not telling his wife about it.

Most people on this board are quite accepting of alternative type relationships, but even people in alternative relationships think that being honest with your spouse is the most important thing in the relationship.

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snowy

Tecoyah says it best.

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forkies

not when opinions are explicitly asked for. that horse is way too high for you to be riding, so spare us.

doncalypso

What is cheating?

That is a very good epistemological question. One thing I know for sure is that if my girlfriend were to have sex with another man (or even with another woman) then that would definitely be cheating as far as I'm concerned.

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Chamaeleontidae

No matter how many times Bill Clinton said "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" the end result was sexual contact with another person.

The only exception I can think of would be "Turn and cough" and "Doc, are you using your whole hand"...

If you have to justify it ("There was no Happy Ending", "I paid for it", "The Sheep looked lonely" etc...) it's cheating in my book...

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Toaster126

Well, I guess we have a difference in opinion. I believe it is judgemental to determine what is cheating for a relationship you aren't in. The_Jazz, the thread starter and person who asked for the opinions, was "on the fence" about it. My statement was directed towards those who responded to the first post.

Feel free not to insult me in the future, though.

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"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

skier

well said, mistwalker.

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rlynnm

Sigh, you're great Mal.

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