Canada: Canadian Elelction - 2006 - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Charlatan · 12-12-2005, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by splck

Didn't the Liberals have 12 odd years to impliment their daycare dream? Why is it now being promised yet again? I'm not sure why everyone's childcare should be paid for by the state and I would have rather had $1200 per child at the time. I'd take tax breaks for stay at home parents to encourage one income families over state run day care.

I would prefer a larger rebate on my childcare expenses. Single income homes while they sound great are not a practical option. One cannot afford to live in urban areas with only one income unless you either live in a slum or make enough to live in a mansion.

I am not confident that a national daycare is the solution. I would rather see a growth in not-for-profit daycares associated with Schools or better after school programs for older kids (grade one and up).

Quadraton · 12-12-2005, 11:56 AM

Yet another thing to think about when you go line up at the polls. I predict Scope sales will skyrocket after the election, as every Canadian tries to get that nasty taste out of their mouth.

highthief · 12-12-2005, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I would prefer a larger rebate on my childcare expenses. Single income homes while they sound great are not a practical option. One cannot afford to live in urban areas with only one income unless you either live in a slum or make enough to live in a mansion.

I am not confident that a national daycare is the solution. I would rather see a growth in not-for-profit daycares associated with Schools or better after school programs for older kids (grade one and up).

Quebec has a 7 dollar a day provincially run program that seems pretty good.

And yeah, T.O. house prices - $490,000 is now the average price of a detached home anywhere in Toronto, and that includes the crappy neighbourhoods!

Charlatan · 12-12-2005, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quadraton

Yet another thing to think about when you go line up at the polls. I predict Scope sales will skyrocket after the election, as every Canadian tries to get that nasty taste out of their mouth.

What does that poll really mean? Does it mean our politicians are more corrupt? Does it mean we think they are more corrupt? Does it mean other nation's politicians are better at pulling the wool over their electorate's eyes?

Right. It really doesn't mean anything.

splck · 12-12-2005, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I would prefer a larger rebate on my childcare expenses. Single income homes while they sound great are not a practical option.

I agree that single income homes may not be practical for everyone, but they are for some. Why should people that elect to put their kids in daycare receive government money for doing so when people that choose to stay at home receive nothing? By giving both sets of parents the money to spend as they see fit, it levels the playing field.

Quadraton · 12-12-2005, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

What does that poll really mean? Does it mean our politicians are more corrupt? Does it mean we think they are more corrupt? Does it mean other nation's politicians are better at pulling the wool over their electorate's eyes?

Right. It really doesn't mean anything.

Article: "Canadians believe political parties are the most corrupt institution in the country"

It means a sample of Canadians believe politicians are the most corrupt people in Canada.

Charlatan · 12-12-2005, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quadraton

Article: "Canadians believe political parties are the most corrupt institution in the country"

It means a sample of Canadians believe politicians are the most corrupt people in Canada.

Read the article again... yes that quote is in the first paragraph but the rest of the article compares different country's views on corruption in their governements.

It is an oddly written article.

Quadraton · 12-12-2005, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Read the article again... yes that quote is in the first paragraph but the rest of the article compares different country's views on corruption in their governements.

It is an oddly written article.

I don't follow you. The first part of the article says Canadians don't believe in their politicians. The second part goes on to say we're tied with the Americans, but we're not as cynical as the Israelis. The next part says that Canadians don't believe politicians will get any better. Then it ends with how the survey was conducted.

That doesn't change the fact that, when asked who were the most corrupted people in Canada, most surveyed Canadians said their politicians, which is what the article was alluding to.

Charlatan · 12-12-2005, 03:00 PM

Perhaps it's just me... whatever.

Lucifer · 12-12-2005, 04:13 PM

Perhaps in the interests of letting things cool down a bit on the election front, you should all cruise over to Rick Mercer's Blog and have a laugh or two at the photoshopped pictures of Martin, Harper, et al. And while you are there make sure you read Paul Martin's Christmas letter to the nation.

Quadraton · 12-12-2005, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Perhaps it's just me... whatever.

Yeah, I didn't really post that because I wanted to argue about the nuances of the article. I was more interested in spurring debate about the state of our political climate, and whether people really believe that all politians are corrupt.

Perhaps if I start it off anew, it might spur some conversation.

*Ahem* Political corruption sucks. Discuss.

Charlatan · 12-13-2005, 06:09 AM

no problem.

I think you find it difficult to find anyone (other those who benefit from corruption) that will defend political corruption.

The question is do we see all politicians the same?

Do we see ALL Liberal party politicians as equal in the corruption scandal? Do we see the other parties as being corrupt?

Personally, I think there will always be some form of corruption in government. The key is to what extent will it exist. To me, Gomery is refreshing... perverse as that may sound. It shows that corruption can be discovered and ferreted out.

What scares me more is the sort of corruption that never gets discovered or that is discovered but spun out of existence.

Of course the reverse is also true. A lot of time can be wasted trying to find corruption that doesn't exist. This is usually in an effort to score political points. This is almost as bad a corruption itself.

Leto · 12-15-2005, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I would prefer a larger rebate on my childcare expenses. Single income homes while they sound great are not a practical option. One cannot afford to live in urban areas with only one income unless you either live in a slum or make enough to live in a mansion.

I am not confident that a national daycare is the solution. I would rather see a growth in not-for-profit daycares associated with Schools or better after school programs for older kids (grade one and up).

I'd have to disagree with your assessment on the single income option. My street has a fair number of one income families. Some strategies employed have been to rent out the basement as an apartment, or take in a Homestay student (quite a few of these - they are usually japanese girls living here for half a year or so to learn english. So the homeowner gets around $600/m for them).

My street is a fairly typical older neighbourhood, with a mix of single detached/or semi styled streetcar houses from the 1920's. The cost of a semi is about $400K. Neither a slum nor Forest Hill. I can itemize 8 households on my block who do the single income schtick.

For us, we both worked, and powersaved. Inlaws took care of the kids while they were very young. As soon as we discovered that inlaws were not appropriate homework monitors, we took the financial hit, and my wife retired to stay home. Today, she is volunteering on a field trip for my 8 yo son's class to a downtown green house (at UofT).

Charlatan · 12-15-2005, 09:25 AM

I was exagerating... I will admit.

When my son was born we were renting a house in North York. My wife stayed home and opened a daycare so she could stay home and make money. She returned work when we bought our house and moved to Riverdale... had just entered Jr. Kindergarten.

When our daughter was born, my wife was just starting back at school. She both worked and went to school. Her mother looked after our daughter on school days and our son was in daycare. Money was very tight.

We do not have the space in our house to either rent out a room or make a basement apartment... We were lucky that her job permitted her to have the baby with her and that her mother was able to care for the baby while she was at school. We could never have afforded to send both our kids to daycare at the time without both of us working and even then it would have been tight.

I know a few other people who are stay at home in our area but their spouse is pulling in over 150K.

I would still argue that for average income earners (i.e. those who are in the 40 to 50K range) it just isn't a practical option for a parent to stay home.

Antikarma · 12-16-2005, 06:47 AM

You know, having watching the french language debate two elections in a row, I've come to a depressing conclusion. It's sad that the most eloquent, well spoken, and PERHAPS intelligent politician in Canada happens to be the leader of the Bloc Quebecois.

If only he could channel those powers for the forces of good

Charlatan · 12-16-2005, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antikarma

If only he could channel those powers for the forces of good

I agree... too bad he isn't a Federalist.

metalgeek · 12-17-2005, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quadraton

Yeah, I didn't really post that because I wanted to argue about the nuances of the article. I was more interested in spurring debate about the state of our political climate, and whether people really believe that all politians are corrupt.

Perhaps if I start it off anew, it might spur some conversation.

*Ahem* Political corruption sucks. Discuss.

More political corruption!!! (well if it benefits me.)

It think one of the best preventions for it in a democracy like ours is actualy having governments that change, rather than the same party for long periods of time + more power with the auditor general and power to actually convict those who engage in corruption. (why has no one gone to jail for adscam yet?)

Charlatan · 12-17-2005, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metalgeek

(why has no one gone to jail for adscam yet?)

Give it time... Gomery hasn't finished and the RCMP has only really started their investigation since the release of Gomery 1.

Charlatan · 01-06-2006, 06:05 AM

I think this might just turn out bad for the Liberals...
I think I suggested earlier in this thread that if Harper were to come out and say he could work with NDP in a minority situation it would bode well for both his party and the Conservatives.

Guess what?

Harper just came out saying he could work with the NDP.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...lDecision2006/

Quote:

Willing to work with NDP, Harper says

TORONTO and WINNIPEG — Conservative Leader Stephen Harper extended a political olive branch to the New Democratic Party yesterday, saying he could see a Tory government working with the NDP "in particular" in spite of their many philosophical differences.

One common area between the parties is improving accountability and reforming government, Mr. Harper said. The NDP may also come to support his party's determination to keep Ottawa out of provincial jurisdictions.

The political overture was his response to NDP Leader Jack Layton's unusually terse anti-Conservative tirade on Wednesday.

Mr. Layton said the Tories would make "a hero" of Bloc Québécois Leader Gilles Duceppe with a massive transfer of federal tax authority to the province in order to buy Bloc backing for a Tory budget.

Mr. Harper rejected such an approach yesterday.

"I would hope with the NDP in particular that they would have some interest in working with us on various changes we're going to make to the operation of the federal government to improve accountability and improve ethics and honesty," he said in Toronto.

"The federal NDP, regardless of the philosophical differences I have with them on a range of issues, has long been concerned with ethics and accountability in government and integrity in politics."

Mr. Harper said he believes in respecting provincial jurisdiction and supports Quebec Premier Jean Charest's proposals for improving the federation.

"Mr. Charest is not proposing any kind of massive devolution of federal powers," he said.

"I'm not naïve. I don't believe for a second that any amount of change that I would ever make to the Canadian federation would satisfy the Bloc Québécois."

Mr. Layton recoiled from Mr. Harper's overture yesterday, saying he sees little common ground with the Conservatives -- but he did not rule out working with a Tory-led minority government on a vote-by-vote basis.

"We're in the middle of attempting to defeat as many Conservatives as we possibly can," Mr. Layton said at a campaign stop in Winnipeg.

He said there's a yawning gap between the NDP and Conservatives.

Of course the NDP is still campaigning agianst the Conservative... they have more to loose if they don't. But once the election is done, I see Layton willing to work with whoever is in power to negotiate for the policies he would like to see implimented. He has proven himself time and again, to be an amazing consensus builder (both federally and at the municiple level).

Leto · 01-09-2006, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antikarma

You know, having watching the french language debate two elections in a row, I've come to a depressing conclusion. It's sad that the most eloquent, well spoken, and PERHAPS intelligent politician in Canada happens to be the leader of the Bloc Quebecois.

If only he could channel those powers for the forces of good

what will it take to make him cross the floor? It's not unheard of.. rather common in Canadian politics.

Debate is tonight. Conservatives have a 9 point lead in the polls. Is that scary?

pluses of Conservative gov't: reduced taxes... northern security, income splitting

minuses; reform agenda at fore-front, Kyoto accord out the window, foreing policy back to Mulroney era toadying to the yanks. abortion rights gone?

My neighbourhood is so staunchly NDP provincially, I am very curious to see how things turn out.

Ace_O_Spades · 01-09-2006, 02:15 PM

Interesting how the Liberals in my riding of Burnaby-Douglas FINALLY decided, after 12 years in power, to decide to put post-secondary education on the election platform.

I see this as a pointless flail in attempt to trick people with their 50/50 plan (pay 50% of 1st year, and 50% of last year's tuition). I don't expect them to follow through with it, and current post-sec students won't benefit at all.

I wish post secondary education were a more important issue for the feds. There's a reason my voter demographic has the lowest turnout of all... They aren't catering to us at all.

Leto · 01-09-2006, 08:26 PM

actually this is important to me as well. When I was in first year, tuition was $770. that plus residence fees or rent in later years could be earned by working in the summer.

I no longer think it's true that a student can finance his year by working through the summer. My oldest son is in grade 11, after next year, he has to choose a university. I really want him to experience residence or renting with housemates, rather than commuting from home. But with tuition hovering around $6,000 and up, added to room and board, there is no way that he can earn his year during the summer.

Any break that can be eeked out of any party will be appreciated, and may sway my vote. Unfortunately, bottom line considerations have replaced my idealism.

highthief · 01-10-2006, 03:34 PM

"We want change!"

(But we are doing the best of the G8, the dollar is strong, unemployment is low, interests rates are miniscule, our standard of living is fantastic, we're running surpluses, and we're not involved in the bone-head war)

"uhmmm... we want change!"

Charlatan · 01-10-2006, 05:19 PM

Yeah... I have a problem with that as well. Actually, most Conservatives, if you ask them how they are doing ecomomically would have to say that the Liberals have done a lot of good.

highthief · 01-11-2006, 03:55 AM

I think if we were a 2 party system as with the US, the Liberals would win in a walk, based solely on the economic performance. But the socially left-centre vote is really split between the liberals, NDP, Bloc and even Green now, while the Conservatives have a lock on the 1/3 of the rest of the population.

It'll be a close one!

Charlatan · 01-11-2006, 07:05 AM

I am not sure I agree with you on this.

I think it is important to note that the Conservative growth has come directly from the Liberals. If what you suggest is true, we would see the Conservatives number holding steady while the NDP and Bloc numbers grow.

Currently, as with most of the election the Bloc and NDP have held steady.

I do agree that what you suggest may be true for individual ridings but not on the nation as whole.

Here is the latest Globe and Mail/CTV poll: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/speci...2006/poll.html

Conservatives: 37%
Liberals: 29%
NDP: 17%
Bloc: 13%

Charlatan · 01-11-2006, 07:15 AM

Here is a Globe and Mail report on the poll:

Quote:

Link Tories now 10 points in front
By STEVEN CHASE
Wednesday, January 11, 2006 Posted at 5:11 AM EST
From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

MONTREAL — The Conservatives are riding a wave of support that puts them on the verge of a majority government, the latest Strategic Counsel poll suggests, driven by surging fortunes in Quebec, British Columbia and Ontario outside the Greater Toronto Area.

Stephen Harper's Tories now have a 10-point lead over the Liberals -- their widest so far in the campaign -- with 38 per cent of the popular vote versus 28 per cent for Paul Martin's Liberals. NDP support has risen slightly, now standing at 16 per cent.

Polling conducted for The Globe and CTV by the Strategic Counsel shows Mr. Harper's party is on a roll in the eyes of Canadians, with the number soaring of respondents who feel the Tories have the momentum in the campaign.

The Conservatives are on the threshold of capturing seats in Quebec, a province that has been largely cool to the Tories for 13 years, as the province's support for the Bloc Québécois sags below 50 per cent for the first time in the campaign.

"I really do believe the Conservatives are on the precipice of a breakthrough here," Strategic Counsel chairman Allan Gregg said of Quebec.

Provincewide support for the Conservatives has risen to 22 per cent in Quebec, putting them ahead of the Liberals for the first time in Strategic Counsel's campaign polling. The Liberals have dropped to 19 per cent.

The Bloc Québécois has dropped to 48-per-cent support.

"Now the Conservatives are gaining at the expense of the Bloc Québécois," Mr. Gregg said.

Outside Montreal, the Tories are doing even better in Quebec. Polling shows they have 29 per cent of popular support, nearly three times what they started with, and far ahead of the Liberals, who stand at 13 per cent. The Bloc is at 51 per cent, down from a high of 61 per cent in the Dec. 12-21 period.

"They are right on the knife's edge of tipping seats," Mr. Gregg said.

Quebeckers also see the Tories gaining in momentum -- a trend that can be a precursor to a decisive shift in voter preference.

Fifty-four per cent of Quebec respondents said the Tories have the momentum in the campaign, up significantly from 47 per cent in the last polling period. The perception the Bloc has momentum has sagged to 22 per cent from a high of 51 per cent in mid-December, while the Liberals have further weakened to 10 per cent.

"The viability of the Bloc as a protest vote has declined as their momentum has been lost and it's now shifting over to the Conservatives," Mr. Gregg said.

"As more and more Quebeckers come to believe the Conservatives are going to win, the Conservatives are becoming a more viable vehicle for that protest sentiment."

Outside Montreal -- traditionally a Liberal bastion of support -- the Conservatives are "touching the area where seats are going to start to tip," Mr. Gregg said.

Furthermore, he said, "we have seen a significant shift among Bloc voters gravitating toward the Conservatives as their second choice over the past 15 days."

The Quebec gains for the Conservatives come as their Canada-wide momentum numbers soar too.

Nationally, 58 per cent of Canadians say the Tories have momentum, up from 53 per cent in the previous polling period. Only 14 per cent of Canadians say the Liberals have momentum.

Mr. Gregg said he hasn't seen momentum numbers like this since the 1993 election, which brought the Liberals back to power.

"This is a runaway train," he said. The other parties "are all getting crushed by this." Mr. Gregg said the only time he's seen momentum like this stopped was in the 1988 election, when Brian Mulroney's Conservatives managed to arrest a Liberal surge.

The Conservative tide that appears to be breaking in many regions is still meeting Liberal resistance in the Greater Toronto Area, the region covered by the 416 and 905 telephone area codes. Polling shows the Liberals lead the GTA in popular support over the Conservatives, 47 per cent to 34 per cent.

But in Ontario outside the Greater Toronto Area, the Conservatives lead the Liberals 41 per cent to 35 per cent.

Support continues to climb for the Conservatives in British Columbia, with the Tories rising six percentage points to 43 per cent in that province, while the Liberals fell four points to 24 per cent. The NDP rose one percentage point to 27 per cent and the Green Party dipped three percentage points to 6 per cent.

For the first time, Strategic Counsel polling shows a plurality of Canadians surveyed -- 47 per cent -- say the Conservatives will win the most seats in the Jan. 23 election, compared with 40 per cent predicting the Liberals will come out on top.

The feeling a Conservative victory is in the cards is the strongest in Quebec, where 58 per cent of those surveyed say the Tories will win the most seats, compared with 32 per cent predicting the Liberals. A plurality of Ontarians, however, 45 per cent, still believe the Liberals will triumph, compared with 42 per cent calling it for the Tories.

The federal Progressive Conservative party was almost wiped out in Quebec in 1993, winning only one seat in that province. It won five seats in the province in 1997 and one seat in the 2000 election. Neither the Reform nor its Canadian Alliance successor won seats in Quebec. The new Conservative Party -- a merger of the PCs and the Alliance -- was also shut out of Quebec in 2004.

The national poll was conducted Jan. 7 to 9 by the Strategic Counsel, although some regional surveys took place over a longer period. The national poll sample size was 1,500 Canadians and the error margin for national results is 2.5 percentage points, but increases for regional samples.

How would you vote if an election were held today?

Cons.: 38%

Liberal: 28%

NDP: 16%

Bloc: 12%

Green: 6%

Conservative Push

Province-wide support for the Conservatives has seen the numbers for the Bloc drop.

How Quebeckers would vote if an election were held on this day.

Nov. 20, 2005*

BLOC QUEBECOIS: 54%

LIBERAL: 30%

CONSERVATIVE: 8%

Jan. 7-9, 2006

BLOC QUEBECOIS: 48%

LIBERAL: 19%

CONSERVATIVE: 22%

2004 ELECTION

Conservative: 9%

Liberal: 34%

Green: 3%

Bloc Quebecois: 49%

NDP: 5%

POLL, Jan. 7-9

Conservative: 22%

Liberal: 19%

Green: 4%

Bloc Quebecois: 48%

NDP: 7%

*Polls taken every two or three days except during holiday period.

SOURCES:STRATEGIC COUNSEL

BigBen · 01-11-2006, 07:32 AM

I think I am going to go with my gut on this one.

I have voted for all of the parties at one time or another in my short but exciting life.

I have no joy with the liberals and their political tactics.
I remember what Brian Mulroney did to this country under the PC flag.
I am not in Quebec.

Therefore, I think I am going to vote NDP on this one. Their social policy stance comes closest to my own.

I am also comforted in knowing (hoping now) that we will have a minority government. I like the idea, where everyone has to work together to make this crazy place work. I think that minority governments more closely represent the citizens, and take away power from the PM and cabinet.

I wish that there was a political party that matched my ideology perfectly, so I wouldn't have to feel so troubled. The good news is that I am not a Sheeple, and I am informed and educated.

Charlatan · 01-13-2006, 06:14 AM

Wow. The Conservatives are gaining ground that puts them in potential majority territory. While I am certain I could stomach a Conservative minority if it came down to it, I don't think I would be happy at all with a Conservative majority.

Given the infighting and defeatism that seems to be swirling in the Liberal party things could get worse. This article in today's Globe and Mail shows that the Chretien/Martin camps are still not united. Martin doesn't seem to have any control over his caucus.

Quote:

LINK
Some Liberals brace for the worst

By MICHAEL DEN TANDT AND CAMPBELL CLARK
Friday, January 13, 2006 Page A1
With a report from Jane Taber

OTTAWA -- With 10 days to go in the federal election campaign, some veteran Liberals are openly conceding defeat, while others have begun quietly laying the groundwork for a leadership contest they believe will "renew" the party.

At the same time, senior Liberals are undertaking what amounts to a pre-election postmortem on Paul Martin's two-year tenure as Prime Minister and the current campaign.

"People are talking to me and saying, 'Well, who do you think can do well,' " former Liberal cabinet minister Herb Dhaliwal said. "I think if Paul Martin is defeated, he'll have no choice but to leave, particularly if there's a strong minority for the Conservatives."

Canada's ambassador to Washington, Frank McKenna, former finance minister John Manley, former fisheries minister Brian Tobin, Ontario cabinet minister Joe Volpe, Toronto-area MP Maurizio Bevilacqua and author Michael Ignatieff were quietly testing the leadership waters before the campaign began, and several have become more active since, insiders say.

"There's no question it's happening," said former Liberal MP John Nunziata, who held a Commons seat for 16 years, eventually sitting as an Independent, before losing in 2000. "There are people meeting surreptitiously -- certainly nothing very public. But each of the candidates, potential candidates, are working the lines. People are putting organizations together."

Mr. McKenna, in particular, appears to be gathering support. While he has been careful not to say that he's running for the leadership, he has been keeping in touch with key Liberals, insiders say.

"For a guy like McKenna, if he's calling people, it sends a message," one Liberal operative said. "I hear people are pushing him, promoting him and willing to work for him."

Recent polls have shown surging support for Stephen Harper's Conservatives, particularly in Quebec -- fuelling talk of a Tory majority.

Not surprisingly, much of the internal criticism of the Martin team comes from loyalists of former prime minister Jean Chrétien, from whom Mr. Martin wrested control of the party in 2003. Said one former Chrétien cabinet minister: "Harper's been able to bring people together. Martin hasn't."

The latest Strategic Counsel poll suggests increasing pessimism among professed Liberal supporters: 40 per cent of Liberals say they think the Conservatives will win on Jan. 23. That number has nearly doubled, from 23 per cent, in less than a week.

Mr. Martin, however, refused to concede defeat. "We were in the same position in the last election," he said in interviews yesterday. "And there was about the same time to go."

Liberal insiders say the decade-long war between Mr. Martin and Mr. Chrétien -- and Mr. Martin's failure to heal the wounds after his accession -- has hobbled the Liberal campaign. Many party organizers are sitting on the sidelines. Others were not asked to help.

One of these is Senator Jim Munsen, Mr. Chrétien's former communications director.

"Last time, I was asked, [strategist] Peter Donolo and myself, to participate in strategic conference calls, and this time I'm not," Mr. Munsen said. "But I wasn't surprised, because they have their own team, and that's the way it is."

Said Mr. Dhaliwal: "They decided, for whatever reason, that they needed to look like a whole new government and distance themselves from the Chrétien years, and get rid of all the people who have a national profile and could be helpful in the campaign. And they have not united the party."

Andrew Kania, Ontario organizer for Mr. Manley's failed 2003 leadership bid, said that if the Conservatives win, Liberals expect Mr. Martin to resign.

"At the end of the day, formally, I don't think there's going to be any campaign to remove Martin. But if there's a Conservative minority, how does he stay?" Mr. Kania said. "Everybody's quietly saying that if there's a Conservative minority or worse, he has to go."

Mr. Kania said that he has spoken to ethnic communities in Ottawa in the past two weeks, but said he networks "regardless of whether Mr. Manley is running."

"But it is obviously my hope and my expectation that he runs when it becomes appropriate, and I expect him to win."

A Conservative victory would force his party to rebuild, Mr. Kania said.

"It means it's going to be time to revitalize the Liberal Party. We're going to need to focus on the structure of the party. We're going to need to focus upon new policy and we're going to need to self-examine as to why this [loss] just took place."

Mr. Kania said he still believes the Liberals could win a minority.

"A lot of people want the Liberals to have a time-out this time, and they're not impressed with Martin personally. And I think that's a different conclusion than you actually want Harper to get a majority."

Some Liberals say the race is over, and argue a loss on Jan. 23 would benefit the party in the longer term. Some key thinkers, one Liberal senator said, "have been talking about the idea that maybe now is a perfect opportunity for renewal."

Others are less sanguine. Many Liberal MPs in Ontario are worried about their chances of winning. And the fingers are pointing at the national campaign.

One Liberal MP said he's pretty sure that Martin strategists are wearing "protective vests." And he said he feels no sympathy for Mr. Martin.

splck · 01-13-2006, 08:13 AM

Looks like Layton used private healthcare for a minor operation. He says he "wasn't aware" it was a private clinic and besides, everybody was going there.
Funny that the champion of public went private.
http://tinyurl.com/cfe9y

Charlatan · 01-13-2006, 09:02 AM

I know that clinic. One of my Mom's boyriends had his hernia done there back in the 70s and my father-in-law went there in the 90s.

I had no idea it was private until a couple of years ago.

It doesn't look good on Jack but so what? It isn't like he's an habitual user of the private system. Additionally, he has stated that it isn't private clinics he is against, just private clinics that use public money. It seems this particular clinic, originally opened to serve veterans, was grandfathered when Universal healthcare was brought in.

I could care less where he goes to get his boils lanced as long as he pays for it himself.

highthief · 01-13-2006, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by splck

Looks like Layton used private healthcare for a minor operation. He says he "wasn't aware" it was a private clinic and besides, everybody was going there.
Funny that the champion of public went private.
http://tinyurl.com/cfe9y

I laughed at that one. The only trump card Layton had to play against the other 3 was his integrity. Said integrity just took a hit.

Meanwhile, Tory candidates are being arrested for smuggling in BC!

james t kirk · 01-14-2006, 02:16 PM

Give Jack a break on the clinic thing.

Everyone who has a hernia goes there and it's paid by OHIP, so what.

I am still undecided who I am going to vote for, mind you, it won't be the NDP, that's for sure.

My riding (Parkdale High Park) will most likely switch from Liberal to NDP. The conservatives just don't do well here.

We'll see.

Normally, I would vote liberal, and I do like them when it comes to the economy, but I feel that they are soft on crime, and I don't like the way they parachuted Michael Ignatieff into Etobicoke Lakeshore. The guy has lived in the states for 30 years, but because he's a pretty boy and an "intellectual" (whatever that means) they played dirty pool and would not accept the nomination of two other people who LIVE in the riding (one guy is an engineer with an MBA and has been active in the community for 20 years, but no, we want the "intellectual", the next Trudeau.)

Well, it pisses me off and it's not even my riding.

Charlatan · 01-14-2006, 02:58 PM

It's funny, most of the pundits I heard on the CBC, from all sides of the political spectrum, seemed willing to give Layton a pass on this one. I think they'd rather send their time getting their licks in on Paul Martin.

Besides, Liberals aside, they are going to have to work with Layton if there is a minority government. No need to burn bridges.

I heard Ducieppe on CBC Radio this morning saying that if he forms the official opposition he would seek to bring down the govenment in a non-confidence vote the first chance he had.

I have to admit, I am shocked at the surge in the polls for the Conservatives in Quebec of all places. They may actually win some seats.

In the end, if the Conservatives win a majority I will be pissed.

james t kirk · 01-14-2006, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I have to admit, I am shocked at the surge in the polls for the Conservatives in Quebec of all places. They may actually win some seats.

Ah, see, back on my first post on this threat, post 48, I predicted that the bloc would not do as well in Quebec as everyone thought.

Of course, I did predict that they would turn to the liberals, so I guess I am only half right.

Half a star for me.

Charlatan · 01-14-2006, 04:08 PM

They are still going to do well. They are still in shape to get more seats than last time. It's just that the Liberals will lose seats to the Conservative rather than the bloc... very few saw this happening.

I still find it hard to believe that people are buying this new Stephen Harper that is being served to us. I don't think he's changes at all from the last election (or even his reform days for that matter).

I guess Canadians are really that ready for change. I guess if you say it enough, people start to believe it.

james t kirk · 01-14-2006, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

They are still going to do well. They are still in shape to get more seats than last time. It's just that the Liberals will lose seats to the Conservative rather than the bloc... very few saw this happening.

I still find it hard to believe that people are buying this new Stephen Harper that is being served to us. I don't think he's changes at all from the last election (or even his reform days for that matter).

I guess Canadians are really that ready for change. I guess if you say it enough, people start to believe it.

Stephen has not changed one bit. But he's doing things smarter this time.

He's keeping his cards close to his chest and he's being very careful not to say or do anything stupid. He's taken a page right out of the Jean Chretien school of campaigning actually.

With a week and a half to go, Harper is looking strong.

Still, last time, he was looking just as strong as well. I was shocked when the liberals won a minority.

Frankly I am torn. I am sick of the liberals, but I like Paul Martin.

Sigh.

I wonder if Martin will even be able to hold onto his own seat.

I would imagine that if the Liberals lose, he will resign anyway. His life long ambition realized only for a moment. He's got to be bitter. Especially with Chretien.

Charlatan · 01-14-2006, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james t kirk

I would imagine that if the Liberals lose, he will resign anyway. His life long ambition realized only for a moment. He's got to be bitter. Especially with Chretien.

Especially with Chretien... and all his suporters that are already weilding the long knives.

They seem ready to conceed defeat and are talking about leadership races and a period of rebuilding...

Lucifer · 01-14-2006, 04:58 PM

did anyone hear about Paul Martin's last ditch effort to buy votes? He is pledging $250,000 to families of emergency workers killed in the line of duty. He plans (or promises) if he gets in, a $25-million "hero fund". Is this desperate or what?

Charlatan · 01-15-2006, 06:49 AM

What's interesting about that initiative is that it was tabled by the NDP in October as a private member's bill.

The Liberals voted against it.

12-12-2005, 11:56 AM	#82 (permalink)
Quadraton Addict Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada	Yet another thing to think about when you go line up at the polls. I predict Scope sales will skyrocket after the election, as every Canadian tries to get that nasty taste out of their mouth. __________________ "A witty saying proves nothing" - Voltaire

12-12-2005, 03:00 PM	#89 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Perhaps it's just me... whatever. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

12-12-2005, 04:13 PM	#90 (permalink)
Lucifer Husband of Seamaiden Location: Nova Scotia	Perhaps in the interests of letting things cool down a bit on the election front, you should all cruise over to Rick Mercer's Blog and have a laugh or two at the photoshopped pictures of Martin, Harper, et al. And while you are there make sure you read Paul Martin's Christmas letter to the nation. __________________ I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls. - Job 30:29 1123, 6536, 5321

12-13-2005, 06:09 AM	#92 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	no problem. I think you find it difficult to find anyone (other those who benefit from corruption) that will defend political corruption. The question is do we see all politicians the same? Do we see ALL Liberal party politicians as equal in the corruption scandal? Do we see the other parties as being corrupt? Personally, I think there will always be some form of corruption in government. The key is to what extent will it exist. To me, Gomery is refreshing... perverse as that may sound. It shows that corruption can be discovered and ferreted out. What scares me more is the sort of corruption that never gets discovered or that is discovered but spun out of existence. Of course the reverse is also true. A lot of time can be wasted trying to find corruption that doesn't exist. This is usually in an effort to score political points. This is almost as bad a corruption itself. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

12-15-2005, 09:25 AM	#94 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I was exagerating... I will admit. When my son was born we were renting a house in North York. My wife stayed home and opened a daycare so she could stay home and make money. She returned work when we bought our house and moved to Riverdale... had just entered Jr. Kindergarten. When our daughter was born, my wife was just starting back at school. She both worked and went to school. Her mother looked after our daughter on school days and our son was in daycare. Money was very tight. We do not have the space in our house to either rent out a room or make a basement apartment... We were lucky that her job permitted her to have the baby with her and that her mother was able to care for the baby while she was at school. We could never have afforded to send both our kids to daycare at the time without both of us working and even then it would have been tight. I know a few other people who are stay at home in our area but their spouse is pulling in over 150K. I would still argue that for average income earners (i.e. those who are in the 40 to 50K range) it just isn't a practical option for a parent to stay home. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

12-16-2005, 06:47 AM	#95 (permalink)
Antikarma Psycho Location: Yellowknife, NWT	You know, having watching the french language debate two elections in a row, I've come to a depressing conclusion. It's sad that the most eloquent, well spoken, and PERHAPS intelligent politician in Canada happens to be the leader of the Bloc Quebecois. If only he could channel those powers for the forces of good __________________ "Whoever you are, go out into the evening, leaving your room, of which you know each bit; your house is the last before the infinite, whoever you are."

01-09-2006, 02:15 PM	#101 (permalink)
Ace_O_Spades The Death Card Location: EH!?!?	Interesting how the Liberals in my riding of Burnaby-Douglas FINALLY decided, after 12 years in power, to decide to put post-secondary education on the election platform. I see this as a pointless flail in attempt to trick people with their 50/50 plan (pay 50% of 1st year, and 50% of last year's tuition). I don't expect them to follow through with it, and current post-sec students won't benefit at all. I wish post secondary education were a more important issue for the feds. There's a reason my voter demographic has the lowest turnout of all... They aren't catering to us at all. __________________ Feh.

01-09-2006, 08:26 PM	#102 (permalink)
Leto Junkie Location: The Danforth	actually this is important to me as well. When I was in first year, tuition was $770. that plus residence fees or rent in later years could be earned by working in the summer. I no longer think it's true that a student can finance his year by working through the summer. My oldest son is in grade 11, after next year, he has to choose a university. I really want him to experience residence or renting with housemates, rather than commuting from home. But with tuition hovering around $6,000 and up, added to room and board, there is no way that he can earn his year during the summer. Any break that can be eeked out of any party will be appreciated, and may sway my vote. Unfortunately, bottom line considerations have replaced my idealism. __________________ You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey And I never saw someone say that before You held my hand and we walked home the long way You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

01-10-2006, 03:34 PM	#103 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	"We want change!" (But we are doing the best of the G8, the dollar is strong, unemployment is low, interests rates are miniscule, our standard of living is fantastic, we're running surpluses, and we're not involved in the bone-head war) "uhmmm... we want change!" __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

01-10-2006, 05:19 PM	#104 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Yeah... I have a problem with that as well. Actually, most Conservatives, if you ask them how they are doing ecomomically would have to say that the Liberals have done a lot of good. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

01-11-2006, 03:55 AM	#105 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	I think if we were a 2 party system as with the US, the Liberals would win in a walk, based solely on the economic performance. But the socially left-centre vote is really split between the liberals, NDP, Bloc and even Green now, while the Conservatives have a lock on the 1/3 of the rest of the population. It'll be a close one! __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

01-11-2006, 07:05 AM	#106 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I am not sure I agree with you on this. I think it is important to note that the Conservative growth has come directly from the Liberals. If what you suggest is true, we would see the Conservatives number holding steady while the NDP and Bloc numbers grow. Currently, as with most of the election the Bloc and NDP have held steady. I do agree that what you suggest may be true for individual ridings but not on the nation as whole. Here is the latest Globe and Mail/CTV poll: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/speci...2006/poll.html Conservatives: 37% Liberals: 29% NDP: 17% Bloc: 13% __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

01-11-2006, 07:32 AM	#108 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	I think I am going to go with my gut on this one. I have voted for all of the parties at one time or another in my short but exciting life. I have no joy with the liberals and their political tactics. I remember what Brian Mulroney did to this country under the PC flag. I am not in Quebec. Therefore, I think I am going to vote NDP on this one. Their social policy stance comes closest to my own. I am also comforted in knowing (hoping now) that we will have a minority government. I like the idea, where everyone has to work together to make this crazy place work. I think that minority governments more closely represent the citizens, and take away power from the PM and cabinet. I wish that there was a political party that matched my ideology perfectly, so I wouldn't have to feel so troubled. The good news is that I am not a Sheeple, and I am informed and educated. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

01-13-2006, 08:13 AM	#110 (permalink)
splck it's jam Location: Lowerainland BC	Looks like Layton used private healthcare for a minor operation. He says he "wasn't aware" it was a private clinic and besides, everybody was going there. Funny that the champion of public went private. http://tinyurl.com/cfe9y __________________ nice line eh?

01-13-2006, 09:02 AM	#111 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I know that clinic. One of my Mom's boyriends had his hernia done there back in the 70s and my father-in-law went there in the 90s. I had no idea it was private until a couple of years ago. It doesn't look good on Jack but so what? It isn't like he's an habitual user of the private system. Additionally, he has stated that it isn't private clinics he is against, just private clinics that use public money. It seems this particular clinic, originally opened to serve veterans, was grandfathered when Universal healthcare was brought in. I could care less where he goes to get his boils lanced as long as he pays for it himself. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

01-14-2006, 02:16 PM	#113 (permalink)
james t kirk Junkie Location: Toronto	Give Jack a break on the clinic thing. Everyone who has a hernia goes there and it's paid by OHIP, so what. I am still undecided who I am going to vote for, mind you, it won't be the NDP, that's for sure. My riding (Parkdale High Park) will most likely switch from Liberal to NDP. The conservatives just don't do well here. We'll see. Normally, I would vote liberal, and I do like them when it comes to the economy, but I feel that they are soft on crime, and I don't like the way they parachuted Michael Ignatieff into Etobicoke Lakeshore. The guy has lived in the states for 30 years, but because he's a pretty boy and an "intellectual" (whatever that means) they played dirty pool and would not accept the nomination of two other people who LIVE in the riding (one guy is an engineer with an MBA and has been active in the community for 20 years, but no, we want the "intellectual", the next Trudeau.) Well, it pisses me off and it's not even my riding.

01-14-2006, 02:58 PM	#114 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	It's funny, most of the pundits I heard on the CBC, from all sides of the political spectrum, seemed willing to give Layton a pass on this one. I think they'd rather send their time getting their licks in on Paul Martin. Besides, Liberals aside, they are going to have to work with Layton if there is a minority government. No need to burn bridges. I heard Ducieppe on CBC Radio this morning saying that if he forms the official opposition he would seek to bring down the govenment in a non-confidence vote the first chance he had. I have to admit, I am shocked at the surge in the polls for the Conservatives in Quebec of all places. They may actually win some seats. In the end, if the Conservatives win a majority I will be pissed. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

01-14-2006, 04:08 PM	#116 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	They are still going to do well. They are still in shape to get more seats than last time. It's just that the Liberals will lose seats to the Conservative rather than the bloc... very few saw this happening. I still find it hard to believe that people are buying this new Stephen Harper that is being served to us. I don't think he's changes at all from the last election (or even his reform days for that matter). I guess Canadians are really that ready for change. I guess if you say it enough, people start to believe it. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

01-14-2006, 04:58 PM	#119 (permalink)
Lucifer Husband of Seamaiden Location: Nova Scotia	did anyone hear about Paul Martin's last ditch effort to buy votes? He is pledging $250,000 to families of emergency workers killed in the line of duty. He plans (or promises) if he gets in, a $25-million "hero fund". Is this desperate or what? __________________ I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls. - Job 30:29 1123, 6536, 5321

01-15-2006, 06:49 AM	#120 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	What's interesting about that initiative is that it was tabled by the NDP in October as a private member's bill. The Liberals voted against it. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke