12-08-2005, 06:54 AM | #81 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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12-08-2005, 07:02 AM | #82 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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Doctor and congressman Ron Paul on how less government is better for the health care industry and I happen to agree. More government broke our system of the best and most affordable health care in the world
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12-08-2005, 07:05 AM | #83 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Anyhow, first there needs to be a pandemic, there isn't one. There could be one and there could be a meteor hitting the earth, both are scary, both will happen, we don't know when, so wondering who will pay for something thats not happened is a bit silly at this point, but also pretty obvious. You would and will handle the pandemic like a natural disaster. Who pays for a natural disaster? If its small enough insurance companies, if its too big for them, the government steps in, and its one of the few places where I will agree the government has a place in stepping in. What that has to do with making all pay gigantic taxes so you can get 'free' health care because you lacked the forsight to get insurance is beyond me. All socialized medicine will do is make a pandemic worse, because we will have less doctors, less staff, and less resources than we currently have in the US. If you don't know that part of the socialized systems, you need to do more homework.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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12-08-2005, 09:56 AM | #84 (permalink) |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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Still waiting..... (I'm sure UsTwo had an infinite amount of ... but I no longer read his posts.... all he does is insults.... no debates no facts... so pleas UsTwo save your time and don't reply to me)
Here are the facts: Bush has this great plan for Martial Law on a pandemic that may or may not hit the US. Many in America who have no insurance or fear they cannot pay the deductible do not go to see doctors. Many of these people work in the public. So, if this pandemic that Bush has people believing hits, what is going to happen? Because these people have no insurance and work in the public, they will contaminate other thus making the pandemic worse and more expensive. Who is going to pay their medical bills when they can't? Who is going to pay for the vaccine, when they can't? I'm asking who's paying for this, how can you defend a system that is flawed to the point where people will get sicker? I'm still waiting for an answer as to who is going to pay, and/or what do you think this scenario is going to lead to? Personally, if it is as bad as Bush wants us to believe (and the fact he wants Martial Law for it.... one would want to believe he believes it will be bad (or he's just power hungry)........ so therefore if it is that bad, then what will happen to our system the way it stands today? Insurance companies aren't going to take the hit, the executives will golden parachute, bankrupt out and have the government bail them out..... So that means we will probably be paying more in the long run than if we had just had universal healthcare and been done with it. It's not rocket science...... it's pretty cut and dry. Unless you want to say that Bush and his Martial Law is an over reaction..... and this scenario will never happen.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 12-08-2005 at 09:59 AM.. |
12-08-2005, 10:17 AM | #85 (permalink) | |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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You and Samcol do make good points and show the system we have now does not work, will not work and cannot work long term or in the face of a true crisis. When a NEED for the people is run solely for profit and they make that need so expensive that people cannot afford it, then you have to change the system. I have never said I wanted free healthcare, I firmly believe in a sliding scale system. One of the most serious problems facing the healthcare industry is insurance companies wanting to fight what they pay. If you go to the wrong hospital, if you see a specialist before you have been approved, if they deem the surgery you need is "experimental" or unneeded yet the doctor knows you need it..... they won't pay, or they'll pay far less and you pay far more. I am pointing out a fatal flaw in the system, if there's this great pandemic, we're going to say it's okay for the government to pay for people's healthcare then? So in special circumstances it's ok, but otherwise no? Who defines these special circumstances? The healthcare industry? the insurance companies? President Bush? I have shown we are behind in infant mortality, we are behind in the amount of doctors, we are behind the rest of the world (countries that do have Universal healthcare) in many major aspects. Surely, a country that wants to claim to be the best can do better, can't we? Or are we so run by our own greed as a whole that we won't care until it affects us personally? I'm sorry, I don't like the answers and no it has nothing to do with "my" case. My case opened my eyes to how bad the system really is. I expect noone to pay for my healthcare, but in reality those who are insured and tax dollars will be going to pay for it. I just think we can have a better system.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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12-08-2005, 10:29 AM | #86 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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when you go to a specialist without 'authorization' from the insurance, you get stuck for it. Say you try to get authorization and they still deny...would you still go?
the insurance industy does not care about your heath. it only cares about its costs. now, if you go to a doctor without insurance, your doctor is going to recomend treatments and he will outline how expensive each one will be, will you choose the most expensive? the health insurance companies do not allow a free market system to function and there is the problem. removing them is the only way to improve the medical industry. on to your pandemic questions.....if people are emergency type sick, they are not refused treatment. If these people end up not being able to pay back the costs, the hospitals are either 'out the cost' or receive some compensation from the government. That compensation comes back to us as taxpayers or higher costs for care later on. If we make it so that people MUST pay for the care they receive, people will be careful on when they actually have to go to the ER or doctor and when they will deal with their virus and ride it out. Less patients for a hospital means less income which will lead to lower prices due to a number of issues. Therefore the cost of private healthcare WILL go down.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
12-08-2005, 10:46 AM | #87 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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12-08-2005, 11:01 AM | #88 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Whenever anyone thinks direct government control of parts of the economy will make things better and lower costs I have to question their judgement if not their sanity.
I'm going to leave it at that, smile, and back away.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
12-08-2005, 11:02 AM | #89 (permalink) | |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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If when this pandemic hits (and it's going to be horrid, because Bush has Martial Law plans ready for it), then we are in serious trouble. What got me started on this train of thought is watching 60 Minutes' bit on it (I was watching the show to see Howard Stern.... great piece on him BTW).... and they said that if it mutates and becomes human borne, we'll have like 30 days to contain it. Now, the question that has to be focussed on here in the US is this..... Most people who can't afford healthcare end up waiting until it is seriously bad before they go. That means as the flu incubated in them they could have passed it on to everyone they met, and so on and so on. So by the time they do go into the hospital, they have infected exponentially far more people than if they had felt safe enough and not scared of the cost to go and get treated as soon as symptoms started showing. Preventative medicine so to speak. This is what bothers me, what scares me, what shows the system to be fatally flawed. We cannot wait for people to get to the point where they are hospitalized before we treat them, in cases like these. We may not have time to. We need to educate the people to feel safe to go in and not worry about cost the second they show symptoms. If we don't, if we allow people to get to the point of no return before we treat them...... then we'll have a much bigger and worse problem on our hands.
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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12-08-2005, 12:33 PM | #90 (permalink) | |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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There is little competition in the healthcare industry. About the only price controls there are currently are the result of insurance companies getting doctors and hospitals to agree on rates for certain procedures. With little free market influence the healthcare costs are spiralling out of control and in the not too distant future even the middle class will be priced out of the market. In order for a market to work there has to be open and visable pricing and free-competitive service providers. Hospitals and doctors seem to have little of either of these. If we can't figure out how to make the healthcare industry into a free market industry than it is probably best that the government step in and control it. I don't think we should wait too much longer for these industries to become competitive because healthcare is too important to the nation's overall well being. I would feel differently if there were some good ideas on how to fix it but they have to be better than just outlawing insurance companies. |
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12-08-2005, 12:44 PM | #91 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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i have a close family friend who is a doctor and happens to own her own clinic. She has told me numerous times that, between the insurance companies (of which she has discontinued working with a few) and the state medical boards regulations, the costs incurred with both of these entities is a major part of her expense.
Now, looking at medical care in a free market atmosphere all we would have to do is let doctors set the rates without the insurance companies. That alone would induce more people to become doctors. After that, competition between doctors, medical supply companies, pharmas, and anything else associated with the medical industry would keep costs of services as low as possible. People would then be free to pay for only the care that they actually need and it would be less expensive than paying the insurance industry.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
12-08-2005, 12:56 PM | #92 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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What I don't see is how the concept of 'Its somewhat broken, lets let the government do it' fixes anything. It does make things 'fair' because we all get to live with a shity, overpriced system, full of government waste.. It doesn't make it free, (as in freedom) and I'd rather be free than fair. Are costs high for hospital care? Yep. Might they get too high for the system in the future? Yep What happens in a free maket when prices are too high? Do they stay high? Already what insurance companies do is work with the hospitals for a 'fair' fee. The hospitals have little choice but to take it since it beats not having patients. The only people who really get screwed by the system would be someone uninsured who is lower middle class. They basicly have to go broke before the system kicks in. They won't ever be dying in the street of untreated disease, but they lose a lot of money, and unlike the insurance carriers they can't negotiate prices down. Thats all I want fixed.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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12-08-2005, 01:02 PM | #93 (permalink) | |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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I don't see insurance companies killing the cow, until we have a pandemic or catastrophic problem and then it will be too late. Nor do I see the medical profession lowering costs. I am a firm believer of a sliding scale based medical program. I think until a better system is devised that is the only way. As for asking for the "government to pay for me". I have a right, I pay taxes, I pay probably more of a percentage than some people who make more than I. Plus, I pay the "voluntary tax" when I smoke, when I drink soda, when I drive my car, when I use my phone, etc. So IT is my money also. We are all on this planet to live and share and enjoy life, yet I guess some people believe only only those who make a certain amount are the only ones worthy enough to live healthy happy lives. And yet, those people are so miserable they must continually bully, attack and just be complete immature idiots to everyone else. Ah, but Karma's a bitch.
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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12-08-2005, 01:15 PM | #94 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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My field has almost no insurance coverage. Of the people who come to me, maybe 1/2 have coverage and of them it pays for, at best, 1/4th of the treatment. Its mostly out of pocket. And guess what? I haven't raised my fees in two years. Fee's for the last 15 years have basicly kept pace with inflation. Fee's overall are lower than they were (in todays and yesterdays dollars) 40 years ago due to advances in the field. That, my friend, is the free market. And I do have a dirty secret to tell you. Every now and then someone will have full coverage, its rare, maybe 1 in 100 have it, and I never ask before I give my fee, because when I find out I always think 'damn I could have charged them more'. Its human nature. If I know someone has 5 kids and is paying me out of pocket, I tend to lower my fee, but if I found out they had full coverage do I have the same feelings? Hell no. And the patients, do they dicker over the fee when they have full coverage? Never, not once. I don't fear my karma at all pan, but if we ever pass some full socalized program and its your loved one waiting 5 months to just see a doctor and a month for the basic tests, and then you are told she is too old to get a transplant, remember this debate, paybacks are a bitch.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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12-08-2005, 01:40 PM | #95 (permalink) | ||
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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12-08-2005, 02:06 PM | #96 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Buffalo, New York
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My father would see Amish patients, who would often have no currency with which to pay him for his time. Dad would, however, take that into consideration, and we would often as a family find ourselves with a half a pig, cow, or other something to pay for his medical time. That worked not just for the Amish, but for some of the poor in the same area who needed to see a doctor, but just couldn't afford it. The whole area is farming, so we would get produce and meat all the time.
That doesn't really contribute to the overall discussion, but Ustwo talking about adjusting fees reminded me of my childhood. |
12-08-2005, 02:38 PM | #97 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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medical, reform |
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