zenmaster10665

http://management.silicon.com/govern...9131459,00.htm

I will be honest: This scares the shit out of me. I am very glad that I am not a minority here, because life would be getting a whole hell of a lot harder for me if I were.

For those of you who dont know, the UK Commons has passed a bill, in line with the government position, which gives the go-ahead for a program of ID cards that will be required for every citizen in the UK. These cards will carry biometric information, and there has even been talk about have RFID chips within these cards as well....Can you imagine, walking down the street, not knowing when the police might be scanning you and finding out everything about you?

The cost of this program is currently estimated, but independent survey groups, at around 30 Billion UK pounds (90 Billion US Dollars.) That equates to around 250 GBP/person in the UK.

Isn't this money spent better elsewhere? Can you see this happening in the USA?

Personally, with the creeping restrictions of personal and property rights that are coming into place in the USA, (i.e. emminent domain, flag burning, etc) I think that ID cards could be the next step...

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

Hardknock

It's already happening here.......

Sadly, no one gives a fuck.

samcol

Yes the United States national ID card passed in the budget appropriations bill. I think it is supposed to be implemented by 08, and it is very vague which allows the possiblity for biometric data to be used or RFID.

1984 is a little behind schedule, but it's starting to catch up fast after 9/11.

zenmaster10665

Why is there so much apathy in the US these days...I can't understand why people are letting the government trample on their civil rights in the name of national security....where does it all end? I know the subject has probably been done-to-death but it still drives me crazy!

Republicans these days are not even close to holding the laissez-faire ideals they were founded upon...

When did this change? 9/11? Bush? Both?

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

Ballzor

Its a fucking ID card. I'm sure you were all up in arms when you had to spend a Saturday at the DMV to get your Liscence. So many of my professors have tried to pursuade the students that this is a major problem, but the evidence never adds up. Even the most liberal of students when questioned couldn't think of a reason why ID cards would be bad. (Again, there is no evidence to justify the inclusion of any tracking devices, biometric data, little spy cameras that watch you while you pee)

Overreaction to another of a long list of vague issues. How about we try something new instead of preaching the appocalypse and just wait and see what happens. I know, its hard, but who knows, if it works this time, you could try it on any a number of things and it could work too. Iraq anyone? oh, ok, no your minds are made up. If it turns out these cards are a major infringement on our rights as US citizens I'll gladly take up arms against the government, but uh, for now lets keep the safeties on.

__________________
Le Berger, Le Mouton, Ce qui vous mangerait? Je ne sais pas. -let it all drop cause fuck it I guess we lost-
<Danao>I am french so excuse my langage..
<Krost> ^^
<Krost> I'm American so excuse my president.

aKula

It just wouldn't feel right having to carry around ID all the time because the government wants to know where and who you are. Now I'm not usually somebody who proclaims the necessity for a smaller government, but such an ID card is going too far. I assume that if askedm you must present it. I'll be the first to admit that these points hardly address Ballzor's. I guess this is seen as the next step in the increasing surveilance (so to say) of the people by the state.
It really seems like a waste of money to me actually. What is the government really trying to achieve with such a card? It seems as way for the government to look like it's doing something for the people's security, when in fact such a scheme has no real effect security wise.

Ballzor

The premise is basically that its a liscence without the car. The samples I've seen are nothing to get riled up about.

Lets not forget that you could always order something like this from the DMV. Just an identification card that has your picture and information, the only difference is that the new ID would be manditory for all US citizens. Consider that not everyone has a liscence and at the airport it could work wonders in conjunction with a passport. It really all depends on how its utilized, but there is no reason to get upset about it just yet.

__________________
Le Berger, Le Mouton, Ce qui vous mangerait? Je ne sais pas. -let it all drop cause fuck it I guess we lost-
<Danao>I am french so excuse my langage..
<Krost> ^^
<Krost> I'm American so excuse my president.

Dragonlich

In the Netherlands (as in many other countries), we already have to carry an ID at all times. As the police still need a good reason to check your ID, this is only a problem for criminals and the like.

As for RFID tags:
1) They don't work over long distances.
2) Nobody gives a rat's arse about you. Therefore, they have no reason whatsoever to follow you around; they have better things to do.

Willravel

Driving a car is a responsibility and a privilege. Is being born a responsibility or a privilege? I see a pretty substantial difference.

Ustwo

It would be easy to argue that being a citizen of a country is a responsibility and a privilege.

I've always liked the version of a citizen from Starship Troopers (the book), you had to earn your vote and citizenship.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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Willravel

That was yet another example of a book being better than a movie. Perhapse we should have citizen tests for everyone, including natural born people? Until that day comes, it's not really appropriate to equate a drivers license with the ID cards in the US and UK.

roachboy

i was wondering about this--i lived in france for a few years and having to carry around an id was simply part of living there--at first i found it alienating--but in the longer run, i simply got used to it because i discovered on my own more or less what dragonlich said earlier. so i am not entirely sure where the resistance to this comes from.

i dont have an opinion on the matter, so would be interested in folk explaining their positions instead of simply saying them as if the logic behind them was obvious. it isnt.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

zenmaster10665

This is a battle (at least in the UK) against a national database which records information about every citizen.

This is not about ID Cards per se. ID Cards are mearly the enabler for the governments to track their citizens.

How would you feel if everything about you was stored on a government database and accessible to officials (and whoever else has the technology to read the RFID in the cards) at a whim?

This battle is NOT about the ID cards. It is about the principle that we are all entitled to freedom and privacy.

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

Mephisto2

Well said.

Having a national ID card is no big deal. I think there is a lot of FUD out there concerning this issue.

Mr Mephisto

Grey2000

Agree that national identity cards are not a problem.

Here in South Africa we have probably the most liberal constitution in the world - yet the government understands the need for identity documents for every citizen to prevent fraud, ensure safe elections, and enable businesses to make their services available with the minimum of delay.

Nobody is required to carry their cards at all times, and I'm sure that provision is included in the UK version as well.

Once again liberal theory perceives a threat to individual liberty without any real-world examples to demonstrate their case.

zenmaster10665

Wrong.

You will be required to carry your ID card at all times. If you cannot produce it, you face hefty fines in the first and 2nd instance, failure to pay the fines gets you 2 years in jail.

This is not an innocuous drivers license-type proposal. This is the creation of a file on every british citizen.

Citizenship is not something that must be "earned."

For those that hold this view, why do you feel that you would pass such a test? Would you be willing to give up your citizenship if you failed?

This is a matter of principle.

A question for all of you who support national ID cards:
Do you believe that the government can be trusted with a database holding information on every single one of its citizens? Do you believe that the workers on the National Identity Register are incorruptable? How would you feel if the government knew your spending habits, religion, full criminal record, address, lifestyle choices, political persuasion...etc? Would you start to change your decisions due to the fact that you dont want something that you choose on your database record?

Governments are only here to serve the people, they are not the master of their citizens.

Citizens of all states have the inalienable right to privacy and freedom. We employ governments to curtail these rights only in special circumstances, and only for a limited amount of time.

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

zenmaster10665

Go ahead, I am all ears. (and a mouth )

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

jwoody

My only problem with the proposed I.D. card is that I'll be expected to pay for it. I've heard they will cost roughly £45. Although, if it also works as a passport (which costs £45) and a drivers license (which costs £5) and I will only need to buy one when I need to renew either passport or drivers license, then I suppose that's fine.

Other than that I can see several benefits and and no negative side effects.

zenmaster10665

jwoody, i am interested in the other side of the coin...

Do you believe that the government can be trusted with a database holding information on every single one of its citizens?

Do you believe that the workers on the National Identity Register are incorruptable?

How would you feel if the government knew your spending habits, religion, full criminal record, address, lifestyle choices, political persuasion...etc?

Would you start to change your decisions due to the fact that you dont want something that you choose on your database record?

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

zenmaster10665

Furthermore:

Do you feel that all governments are fully benevolent entites?

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

jwoody

I'd say it was the governments duty to keep accurate information on all of it's citizens. The way I see it they work for me, not the other way round, and I expect them to collect taxes, keep an eye on criminals, hand out benefits only to those who deserve it, etc...

Of course not but what's the worst that could happen (to me, personally)?

There are call centres in India who have all my personal details and I know for a fact they are being sold on to unscrupulous persons. It doesn't affect how I live my life in the slightest.

I have nothing to hide. If my government wants to know the answer to any of these questions they only have to ask me. If it helps them serve me better then that's a good thing.

No, that would be paranoid. I don't do anything now that I'm ashamed of or want to hide from the government. I smoke cannabis behind closed doors but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm trying to hide it, I just can't be bothered with the ordeal of being arrested for it.

zenmaster10665

Agreed, but how much information does the government need to do their job efficiently?


The information that was being sold at one call center was simply credit card numbers...the worst that could happen is that you might have to deal with disputing a charge on your credit card that you did not make, or you might have to cancel your card.

What we are talking about on the National Identity Register (NIR) is a database holding more than just your name and address...this is a database which can hold any information that the government deems fit...and it is a database that will have a list of accessors which will grow over time.

The worst that could happen to you with a system like this? Well, racial profiling, false imprisonment, surveilance of your activities (including that spliff that you smoke behind closed doors)...anything is possible when you give a government powers like this.



If you have nothing to hide, would you agree to the government placing a camera in your house that monitored your activites at all times? This would surely cut down on crime...


Do you feel that the UK and US governments are benevolent entities?

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

jwoody

I won't comment on the US government as it doesn't concern me.

As for our government, I wouldn't use the word 'benevolent' but they certainly aren't the dark forces of evil. We are very lucky to live in here, we have a system which works very well and issues such as I.D. cards are just fine tuning in the strive for perfection.

Grey2000

That's not what SKY news said last night. Do you have an official reference to the requirement to carry it at all times ?

zenmaster10665

Gray, you are right, they would not be required to carry them on the street (yet) however, you will be required to produce one upon request.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3127696.stm


Furthermore, there are reports that the government plans to sell this information on to other organisations.

At the end of the day, this battle is not about ID cards, Per Se....this battle is about the National Identity Register which the government is developing.

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

zenmaster10665

jwoody, what about the other questions?

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

jwoody

The government already has all the information that would be included on the I.D. card.

Remember the national census forms that we filled in a few years ago?
The passport application form contains more personal info than the I.D. card will.
Drivers license and DVLA forms for your car.
Your medical card which is now stored on an NHS computer.
Voter registration.
Your income tax details.
P45's.


I can't see why you might think linking all of this information to one source is a potential danger but I'm ready to listen.

zenmaster10665

My personal comcern is that, like any other government project, there tends to be "scope creep" whereby the original intentions are added upon and modified in subsequent years.

I think that no2id puts it best...

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

jwoody

I think that quote shows that there are at least two ways to look at this.

Let me break it down from my perspective (fro the sake of this discussion, anyway)

financial history:-

Would you lend money to bad debtors or persistant bankrupts? I wouldn't.

health background:-

There are many situations where having your medical conditions on your person can be of benefit. Epileptics, asthmatics, people with allergies.

religion:-

Good thing, for all the wrong reasons. Maybe the government would be forced to recognise Jedi as a religion.

ethnicity:-

If you wish to describe a person (for I.D. purposes) their ethnic origins is a good place to start.

criminal convictions:-

That would only cause hardship to criminals who didn't want to be found or who are looking for work where ex-criminals aren't wanted.

purchase history:-

If this concerns you then pay cash for everything.

physical whereabouts of the ‘target’ citizen:-

Great. Would save the police a lot of time and effort.

data to be added to the system in the name of “anti-fraud” “anti-crime” “anti-terrorism” “protecting children” “anti tax-evasion” or any one of a number of similar reasons.:-

I can't see anything wrong with any of those points. Especially tax-evasion, that really pisses me off.

Ballzor

Whatever privacy you think you may have has always been within the reach of the government. I know a guy who went into the army and served for about a year and a half. He was really upset afterwards, and spent about 3 months moving place to place, with no actual place of residence, no ties to family or friends. Paid in cash, basically all of the things that should make you invisible, still, one morning he was woken up by MP's knocking at his door.

The government, if it so pleases, can figure out anything and everything about you whether you like it or not, this is how its always been. There are databases all over the world with your personal information logged and stored, being sold company to company. Hey, if your not doing anything bad, then what does it matter. Your rights and privacies have always been open to others, this is just a far more organized approach.

__________________
Le Berger, Le Mouton, Ce qui vous mangerait? Je ne sais pas. -let it all drop cause fuck it I guess we lost-
<Danao>I am french so excuse my langage..
<Krost> ^^
<Krost> I'm American so excuse my president.

Mephisto2

Mate, settle down.

You are required to present your driving licence upon request also.

More scaremongering.


Mr Mephisto

zenmaster10665

No...."settling down" is not an option on this for me.

I stand on my principles against the government taking away our privacies and freedoms. I am surprised that you do not as well, considering your other stances on this board...but apparently not too many people are concerned with the potential for abuse that this NIR could create.

Fair enough. But dont come cryin' to me when the sky starts falling

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

Bauh4us

This kind of thing DOES scare me. This kind of infrastructure can be abused so easily. The reason to be concerned with it now is because once it's there it will be nearly impossible to get rid of it.

Oh, and your only required to present your drivers license upon request if you driving. At least that is how it works here in the states. (I'm going out on a limb and saying that that is how it workins in the UK as well, although if I am wrong feel free to correct me)

__________________
"I aint got time for pain! The only pain I got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!" - Terrible Terry Tate

Dragonlich

zenmaster10665, I appreciate your concerns, and share them to a certain extend. However, there are also huge benefits to be gained from such national databases. Law enforcement is just one of them.

Just one example of the benefits: if the government can see where everyone spends their money on, they can adjust their economic policies to match those spending patterns. They'll be able to spend your tax money much more efficiently, allowing the economy to grow, and the taxes to be lowered.

FYI, I work for a private company that creates information systems for hospitals. Basically, it's a bunch of databases containing every bit of (relevant) information about their patients. I, in my role as tech support, have access to that information. If you were one of these patients, I could find out all about your nasty diseases, where you live, what you eat, etc. Sometimes, we even get full copies of those databases for testing purposes.

Some people think it's scary that I have access to such a database, because of privacy issues; they're afraid I might abuse the power. However, I have no medical training, so don't know what those fancy latin descriptions mean. Furthermore, I couldn't care less about your specific details; I only care about the software errors, database problems and the like. I'd say I actually *need* access to that database.

What is your opinion on this? Should I or should I not be able to see all that information?

ObieX

I would imagine this info would contain a SS# as well? If so, absolutely not.

__________________
We Must Dissent.

Dragonlich

No, I haven't seen a SS# yet. I do have the name, home address, telephone numbers, date of birth, insurance details, bank account #, medical history, X-ray results, medication, dates of hospitalization, etc. etc. We'll even be adding photographs of the patients (at the request of the hospitals, to reduce fraud).

We *do* need to see that information, if only to verify that it's there to begin with. If a problem is reported, I need to check the data, to see if there's anything wrong with the patient's records. The alternative is that we have no access, which means that we cannot guarantee that the software works as it should, which will cost lives.

I have access to that information because I need it. I'm not interested in the persons behind those database entries. To me, they're just numbers, nothing more. The only thing I'm interested in is a software system that works as it should.

If access to data scares you, how's about this: I could alter this data without anyone ever finding out; increase the price a bit, change the medication... I could do whatever I want, but I won't. Just like employees of the hospital could do whatever they want, but won't. I know not to abuse the trust placed in me. It's called a conscience (along with privacy laws, and a secrecy clause in my contract).

Think about it: you'd trust your personal data (and your life!) to the doctor operating on you, but you won't trust me with that personal data, which I need in order to maintain the computer system that doctor relies on. Where's the difference?

Which brings us back to the original topic. You'd (probably) trust your government to protect you from harm, but you won't trust them with personal information. Hell, if they wanted to silence the masses and maintain control, there are much better and simpler ways than an ID card.

Mephisto2

The sky hasn't fallen in Germany. Or France. Or Italy. Or Israel. Or any other of the many countries that require ID cards.

But that's beside the point.

You stated, as if it was some drastic change or ground-breaking development, that you would be "required" to show your ID card if requested. This is no different to the state of affairs in many other circumstances, when it comes to other types of identification.

I couldn't care less if the country in which I lived had national ID cards.


Mr Mephisto

zen_tom

I object to the idea, not on grounds of losing my privacy, but because it's a pointless waste of resources.

First, to dispell some myths.

These ID cards will not help law enforcers become any more effective. How does carrying or not carrying a card help a police officer catch a criminal/terrorist/undesirable?

Your purchase records will NOT be stored by the government database - they don't need to, they're perfectly capable of asking your bank to provide details in the event of a criminal investigation, it would be pointless and expensive to record this level of information centrally.

The card (whether it has RFID or not) will be no more capable of tracking your movements than a mobile phone is today. Again, as with bank records, in the event of an investigation, your cell operator is obliged to provide this information to investigators.

ID fraud will not become impossible, in fact, it will be easier for a fraudster to get away with more crime if they successfully manage to forge an ID than it currently is, because a single, trusted peice of ID will open more doors than the current system of checking lots of different sources to validate your identity will.

Governments are widely renouned for their messy and inneficient beaurocracy. Mistakes are made, and people slip through the administrative net. It is already well known that private businesses are hopeless when it comes to keeping track of the information they hold on you. Addresses change, people die, get married etc - the information on your ID will not be of any practical use unless a lot of time and effort is spent keeping it all up to date.

I do see a benefit in linking government services and taxation to such a system - it could make working out your taxes a whole lot easier, streamline government administered services such as healthcare, benefit payments, schooling and transportation (when they finally get around to re-nationalising the rail networks)

But this is already made largely possible using one's National Insurance number (SS number in the US) - Essentially the government's plan is to attach a biometric tag to this number in order to make it harder for people to forge. What they fail to realise is that there will always be methods of circumventing such validation and that all the money spent validating your identity will effectively be for nothing.

Dbass

Sorry, but I skipped the last couple of posts. Firstly, you are not required to produce your drivers license in the US if you are not involved in the commission of a crime. If you are walking down the street and a policeman says he'd like to see some ID, you can tell him to go fuck himself, and it's well within your legal rights.
On the other hand, the police have a lot of rights against you that you may not be aware of. For instance, while you park your car ANYWHERE, a police officer has the right to scan your tags and check for prior scrapes with the laws. This includes any time you are legally parked, even in a privately owned parking lot or residence.
My issue with a scanless ID card is the fact that anybody with enough money could buy a scanner or build a scanning system and this would allow major corporations to keep tabs on demographic information (this is similar to the issue of retail corporations implanting their products with chips that track your purchases) and target advertising to you. It equals out to a pretty unprivate future, and reminds me of Minority Report, where eye scans allow personal advertisements to identify you by name.

Aborted

Until the government demands my income, chest hair density, penis size, vocal pitch, sexual history and all-time lowest spider solitaire score be put on an id card and added to a national database, I see no need to fret. It's intrusive, sure, but then so is that unnatractive chunk of paycheck they take from me and call National Insurance. Intrusive, but tolerably so.

Honestly, this just seems to be an updating and consolidating scheme to modernize identification methods and put all the information we're all required to give at some point or other onto one handy little card. However, if it's to be forced through parliament then someone really should hurry up and let us know what the promised cap will be on the cost, because although I think the principle is sound, it's nowhere near sound enough to justify a cost per person running into hundreds of pounds.