We're number 37!! We're number 37!! - Page 4 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pan6467 · 03-19-2005, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by braindamage351

This article would be a lot more damaging if it didn't refer to Europe as one country. Of course Europe as a whole is better than us. But Europe isn't a country.

That's debateable to some Euro friends I have online who believe that the Union is becoming more governmental, and it is just a question of time before the individual countries become states.

Not sur if I believe that but there is sentiment that way.

It shouldn't matter if they refer to Europe as a country or not, the problems they listed should not be here and would not be here if we had politicians pushing forth an agenda to make the US better and not pushing their own agendas without compromise.

irateplatypus · 03-19-2005, 03:03 PM

this article would be more damaging if the "stats" approached anything close to relevancy. i'm stunned that there haven't been people pointing out this out, right and left.

pan6467 · 03-19-2005, 03:53 PM

Irate,

which "stat" is not relevant?

The stat that says companies cut 1 million jobs?

The stat that say we imported more food than exported?

That we are at the bottom of the list in literacy, mathematical literacy, infant mortality?

Which stat is irrelevant, because in our heyday we led the pack in positive ways, this tells me we lead now in negative ways. To downplay what the list is telling us, is to say we are doing fine. I don't think that list in any way shape or form allows us to believe that our country is doing fine.

irateplatypus · 03-19-2005, 04:57 PM

irrelevant and/or meaningless stats:

Quote:

* Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).

compared to what percentage in other countries?

Quote:

* "The International Adult Literacy Survey...found that Americans with less than nine years of education 'score worse than virtually all of the other countries'" (Jeremy Rifkin's superbly documented book The European Dream: How Europe's Vision of the Future Is Quietly Eclipsing the American Dream, p.78).

scored worse in what?

Quote:

* Our workers are so ignorant and lack so many basic skills that American businesses spend $30 billion a year on remedial training (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004). No wonder they relocate elsewhere!

how much is spent per worker and how does that compare with foreign countries? there is no context or scope for the dollar figure. if a number for other countries can be found, are they compared against similar job descriptions w/similar pay? are the stats adjusted for local currency value?

Quote:

* "The European Union leads the U.S. in...the number of science and engineering graduates; (The European Dream, p.70).

The EU has 85 million more people than the US... how could this not be?

Quote:

* "Europe surpassed the United States in the mid-1990s as the largest producer of scientific literature" (The European Dream, p.70).

scientific literature? how could this possibly be tallied? who decides which literature is "scientific" enough to be included?

Quote:

* Nevertheless, Congress cut funds to the National Science Foundation. The agency will issue 1,000 fewer research grants this year (NYT, Dec. 21, 2004).

compared to how much funding to EU foundations? this is apples to oranges anyway, the US relies on a free market and private industry much more than the europeans do.

Quote:

* Foreign applications to U.S. grad schools declined 28 percent last year.

maybe they can get a similar education at home? great for them, seriously. i don't understand why this means that our grad schools have been degraded.

Quote:

* The World Health Organization "ranked the countries of the world in terms of overall health performance, and the U.S. [was]...37th." In the fairness of health care, we're 54th. "The irony is that the United States spends more per capita for health care than any other nation in the world" (The European Dream, pp.79-80). Pay more, get lots, lots less.

how does one judge the "fairness" of healthcare? wouldn't you like to know before you ascented to the veracity of the stat?

Quote:

* Lack of health insurance coverage causes 18,000 unnecessary American deaths a year. (That's six times the number of people killed on 9/11.) (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005.)

ok, how does that compare to anyone else?

Quote:

* Twelve million American families--more than 10 percent of all U.S. households--"continue to struggle, and not always successfully, to feed themselves." Families that "had members who actually went hungry at some point last year" numbered 3.9 million (NYT, Nov. 22, 2004).

10% of people don't have enough food? do you buy this?

Quote:

* The leading cause of death of pregnant women in this country is murder (CNN, Dec. 14, 2004).

ok...

Quote:

* "Sixty-one of the 140 biggest companies on the Global Fortune 500 rankings are European, while only 50 are U.S. companies" (The European Dream, p.66). "In a recent survey of the world's 50 best companies, conducted by Global Finance, all but one were European" (The European Dream, p.69).

according to what criteria? given the government subsidies given to conglomerates like Airbus why wouldn't they have some big damn companies? moreover, why are big companies implied to be better ones?

Quote:

* "Fourteen of the 20 largest commercial banks in the world today are European.... In the chemical industry, the European company BASF is the world's leader, and three of the top six players are European. In engineering and construction, three of the top five companies are European.... The two others are Japanese. Not a single American engineering and construction company is included among the world's top nine competitors. In food and consumer products, Nestlé and Unilever, two European giants, rank first and second, respectively, in the world. In the food and drugstore retail trade, two European companies...are first and second, and European companies make up five of the top ten. Only four U.S. companies are on the list" (The European Dream, p.68).

again, why is bigger better? a relevant statistic would be overall market share and total revenue for these markets. i'm sure the author would have included them if it benefited the European Dream.

Quote:

* The United States has lost 1.3 million jobs to China in the last decade (CNN, Jan. 12, 2005).

* U.S. employers eliminated 1 million jobs in 2004 (The Week, Jan. 14, 2005).

and created how many? are businesses losing revenue or are they making money?

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* Three million six hundred thousand Americans ran out of unemployment insurance last year; 1.8 million--one in five--unemployed workers are jobless for more than six months (NYT, Jan. 9, 2005).

and this compares to the numbers in the rest of the world how?

Quote:

* Japan, China, Taiwan, and South Korea hold 40 percent of our government debt. (That's why we talk nice to them.) "By helping keep mortgage rates from rising, China has come to play an enormous and little-noticed role in sustaining the American housing boom" (NYT, Dec. 4, 2004). Read that twice. We owe our housing boom to China, because they want us to keep buying all that stuff they manufacture.

40% of the debt could mean 4 dollars out of 10. how much is it compared to our ability to pay it back? how do other countries fare? do we not play a more marked role in some of their industries?

Quote:

* Bush: 62,027,582 votes. Kerry: 59,026,003 votes. Number of eligible voters who didn't show up: 79,279,000 (NYT, Dec. 26, 2004). That's more than a third. Way more. If more than a third of Iraqis don't show for their election, no country in the world will think that election legitimate.

wrong.

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* One-third of all U.S. children are born out of wedlock. One-half of all U.S. children will live in a one-parent house (CNN, Dec. 10, 2004).

compared to...

Quote:

* "Americans are now spending more money on gambling than on movies, videos, DVDs, music, and books combined" (The European Dream, p.28).

compared to...

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* "Nearly one out of four Americans [believe] that using violence to get what they want is acceptable" (The European Dream, p.32).

compared to...? the unstated premise is that violence is NEVER acceptable. what if we just want national sovereignty? waaay too simplified.

Quote:

* Forty-three percent of Americans think torture is sometimes justified, according to a PEW Poll (Associated Press, Aug. 19, 2004).

compared to...

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* "Nearly 900,000 children were abused or neglected in 2002, the last year for which such data are available" (USA Today, Dec. 21, 2004).

compared to...

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* "The International Association of Chiefs of Police said that cuts by the [Bush] administration in federal aid to local police agencies have left the nation more vulnerable than ever" (USA Today, Nov. 17, 2004).

yes, we need more federal money to pour into local police.

more vulnerable than ever?

Quote:

No. 1? In most important categories we're not even in the Top 10 anymore. Not even close.

the most important categories being the ones listed in this article? right...

Quote:

The USA is "No. 1" in nothing but weaponry, consumer spending, debt, and delusion.

look, this is just silly. first off, you can't simply give a single set of raw numbers when you're saying that one place isn't as good as another. i mean, for goodness sakes, a simple bald context-less comparison isn't even presented. also, huge population and currency valuation issues are not considered. numbers without per capita or percentage figures mean nothing between to entities with wildly different cultures and populations.

i know that if i were to give one of you five dollars for every flaw you could find in the list i'd have to sell my damn car. the errors are both numerous and obvious to anyone who bothers to look. that this drivel is used as a springboard for discussion is shameful.

hannukah harry · 03-19-2005, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

that this drivel is used as a springboard for discussion is shameful.

because discussion is such a horrible thing unless you have exact figures, percentages and stamp from jesus saying that you're right.

pan6467 · 03-19-2005, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

look, this is just silly. first off, you can't simply give a single set of raw numbers when you're saying that one place isn't as good as another. i mean, for goodness sakes, a simple bald context-less comparison isn't even presented. also, huge population and currency valuation issues are not considered. numbers without per capita or percentage figures mean nothing between to entities with wildly different cultures and populations.

i know that if i were to give one of you five dollars for every flaw you could find in the list i'd have to sell my damn car. the errors are both numerous and obvious to anyone who bothers to look. that this drivel is used as a springboard for discussion is shameful.

I see, so because YOU do not see the value of what these numbers say (and the fact that they are telling us what we already know, there are serious problems we need to fix here), then we shouldn't worry about things and it is worthless to discuss.

So because you see no point in trying to fix things, noone else should. And since you see no point then there would never be compromise to better anything.

Hence, one side decides their agenda is the only one worth listening to and doing anything about.

Hence gridlock, hence promoting hatred, hence a country that will continue to fall because people don't care to see the other side they just care to see their side.

I'm not saying the article is 100% right, I'm simply saying and I think a vast majority would agree, this article points out problems and weaknesses we need to work on and better.

Aw well, what's the point nothing will change too many people love to live in misery and complain and not do anything.

I'm not miserable nor do I want to sound like a crybaby. It's just I look at both sides and realize neither truly wants to better the country. And I find that very sad, in that I know the USA is capable of so much more and that all of us can live better.

Instead, I am resolved to the fact that this country will get worse, because one side ignores and chooses to not do anything because they feel they pay too much, and another side chooses not to do anything because they want to say "see told ya so". So neither side will listen to reason and want change.

irateplatypus · 03-19-2005, 10:10 PM

the point isn't that there is nothing to fix, the point is that this information is worthless. if we are to fix the problems we must demand real statistics with real analytical weight behind them.

i dislike it when the blatantly obvious gets cast into the realm of personal opinion. it's not that i don't see value in these statistics, it's that there ISN'T value in the statistics. who among us would make any decision in life with this type of information? would you shop for a car or buy a house with a similar collection of data? of course not. how then could we begin to have a meaningful discussion about infinitely more serious and complex issues? there is no doubting your sincerity pan, but you must demand a better starting point for discussing the issue.

filtherton · 03-19-2005, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

the point isn't that there is nothing to fix, the point is that this information is worthless. if we are to fix the problems we must demand real statistics with real analytical weight behind them.

i dislike it when the blatantly obvious gets cast into the realm of personal opinion. it's not that i don't see value in these statistics, it's that there ISN'T value in the statistics. who among us would make any decision in life with this type of information? would you shop for a car or buy a house with a similar collection of data? of course not. how then could we begin to have a meaningful discussion about infinitely more serious and complex issues? there is no doubting your sincerity pan, but you must demand a better starting point for discussing the issue.

I think you missed the point. The purpose of this list was to point out the myriad different ways in which america is less than ideal whether compared to other nations or not. I believe that many americans harbor the false notion that america is top dog in every endeavor it chooses to undertake. Before you can have a discussion about any problem, you must first acknowledge that the problem exists. That is the purpose of these stats.

Even though many of the stats compare the u.s. to the e.u. doesn't mean that all of the stats must compare the u.s. to another country.

Dyze · 03-21-2005, 02:04 AM

irat, this information is in no way worthless and does not need to be compared to any other country. The stats are horrible as they are without reference to other countries. The US claim to be one of the most developed countries and therefore 20 % should not think that the sun orbits the earth. Maybe in Indonesia 60 % believe so and 24 % in Japan but that does not matter. It is bad as it is.

NCB · 03-21-2005, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

the point isn't that there is nothing to fix, the point is that this information is worthless. if we are to fix the problems we must demand real statistics with real analytical weight behind them.

i dislike it when the blatantly obvious gets cast into the realm of personal opinion. it's not that i don't see value in these statistics, it's that there ISN'T value in the statistics. who among us would make any decision in life with this type of information? would you shop for a car or buy a house with a similar collection of data? of course not. how then could we begin to have a meaningful discussion about infinitely more serious and complex issues? there is no doubting your sincerity pan, but you must demand a better starting point for discussing the issue.

Irate, you have to understand the meaning of this article and the susequent posts. It's not about problem solving, it's about bashing this country. It's what liberals do. They take the opp every chance they get to take this nation down a peg or two. They offer a litney of complaints, compare our literacy rate to Cuba, and then proclaim that we're not doing enough.

Do we have issues to deal with in this country? Of course we do, but that in no way takes away from how great this country is. Just pray that they don't love their children like they love their country.

Cynthetiq · 03-21-2005, 07:15 AM

When I lived in Singapore they taught all the Singaporeans that they were the best in the world in just about everything, really everything. From culinary to fashion, technology to urban planning. Lee Kuan Yew stood up and told everyone to be proud to be a Singaporean saying how they rose up from an impoverished nation like their neighbors to metropolis worthy of the world stage.

Watching The King and I the other day, the teacher shows them a new map where Siam is not the largest thing in the center of the map, but just small part of the SE Asian peninsula. The prince was rather upset to discover this "new view."

As I travel around the world these past number of years, I have come to realize that the world isn't much different from place to place. People have strong national pride towards their homelands, while sometimes they may be embarassed by particular moments, as a whole, they still are proud of their nation's position.

alansmithee · 03-21-2005, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyze

irat, this information is in no way worthless and does not need to be compared to any other country. The stats are horrible as they are without reference to other countries. The US claim to be one of the most developed countries and therefore 20 % should not think that the sun orbits the earth. Maybe in Indonesia 60 % believe so and 24 % in Japan but that does not matter. It is bad as it is.

But if America has the fewest % of people who believe the sun orbits the earth, then America IS the best in that facet. I believe that irate was pointing out (correctly) that in an article trying to show that America isn't tops in a bunch of topics, but doesn't show the comparison.

I don't think that the original article wasn't for the purpose of problem solving, but was for the purpose of showing how America sucks. The article starts with the assumption that the EU is better. It uses alot of numbers to try to prove this, but these numbers are in a vacuum. There is no comparison to determine if indeed the EU is better in those things.

There are many things that can be improved in America. And some of these things (especially the public school systems) are already being done better in the EU. But that wasn't the purpose, the purpose was to show how they are right and America is wrong. And they failed to do that.

irateplatypus · 03-26-2005, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

But if America has the fewest % of people who believe the sun orbits the earth, then America IS the best in that facet. I believe that irate was pointing out (correctly) that in an article trying to show that America isn't tops in a bunch of topics, but doesn't show the comparison.

thanks. i read this while scrolling down to say this very thing.

filtherton · 03-26-2005, 05:28 PM

So it's a good thing that 1 out of five americans isn't aware that the earth orbits the sun?

Comparisons are nice and all, but there are many instances where i don't care what other people are doing when i decide what is acceptable for myself. If i only drink and drive one night a week, does that make me better than someone who drinks and drives three nights a week? Would you be happy if i told you that i sold crack to three schoolkids a week, as long as i didn't tell you about anyone who sold less drugs to only one schoolkid a week?

We're 49th in world literacy. There's a comparison for you.

We're 28th in math literacy. Another comparison.

We're 37th in overall health care performance. What does "health care performance mean"? Well, i guess it depends on what your definition of "is" is.

If 3 out of 5 americans thought civil rights were overrated would that be acceptable for you if you had nothing to compare it to?

hannukah harry · 03-26-2005, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

If 3 out of 5 americans thought civil rights are overrated would that be acceptable for you if you had nothing to compare it to?

hey, as long as my taxes are low and i don't have to think for myself, then it's a-ok in my book!

irateplatypus · 03-26-2005, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

So it's a good thing that 1 out of five americans isn't aware that the earth orbits the sun?

do you think anyone is implying that?

Quote:

Comparisons are nice and all, but there are many instances where i don't care what other people are doing when i decide what is acceptable for myself. If i only drink and drive one night a week, does that make me better than someone who drinks and drives three nights a week? Would you be happy if i told you that i sold crack to three schoolkids a week, as long as i didn't tell you about anyone who sold less drugs to only one schoolkid a week?

and yet you title the thread "We're number 37!! We're number 37!!"? that isn't what you were saying at all.

Quote:

We're 49th in world literacy. There's a comparison for you.

We're 28th in math literacy. Another comparison.

not sourced, but an improvement.

Quote:

We're 37th in overall health care performance. What does "health care performance mean"? Well, i guess it depends on what your definition of "is" is.

you're referencing your own original post where the measurement was gauged in "fairness."

Quote:

If 3 out of 5 americans thought civil rights were overrated would that be acceptable for you if you had nothing to compare it to?

i see what you're getting at, but it's a combination of a sidestep and a backtrack. if you'll read any dissenting post on this thread you'll see that no one is completely happy with the status quo... so don't pretend that anyone is. the dissenters are frustrated that you would present this data as valuable in revealing the real nature of the problems we face when it is clearly flawed.

filtherton · 03-27-2005, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

do you think anyone is implying that?

No one is implying anything, what a few are saying is that stats like this don't matter if we have nothing to compare them to.

Quote:

and yet you title the thread "We're number 37!! We're number 37!!"? that isn't what you were saying at all.

"There are many instances"

Quote:

you're referencing your own original post where the measurement was gauged in "fairness."

Nope, i'm referencing my original post where the measurement was gauged in "overall health care performance."

Quote:

i see what you're getting at, but it's a combination of a sidestep and a backtrack. if you'll read any dissenting post on this thread you'll see that no one is completely happy with the status quo... so don't pretend that anyone is.

How am i backtracking? I though that you were throwing out all statistics that don't involve some sort of comparison. I was pointing out how silly that is.

No one is happy with the status quo, but many are happy as long as we can't compare our failings to anyone else.

Quote:

the dissenters are frustrated that you would present this data as valuable in revealing the real nature of the problems we face when it is clearly flawed.

What, do the dissenters want a peer reviewed essay about each and every flaw? If that's what you think i owe you with this thread, than i'm sorry to break it to you, but i was just trying to point out that our country isn't exactly god's gift to the world.

questone · 04-21-2005, 06:51 PM

I believe one should have a rational understanding of your relationship to your nation and a the people with whom you share a social contract.

03-19-2005, 03:03 PM	#122 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	this article would be more damaging if the "stats" approached anything close to relevancy. i'm stunned that there haven't been people pointing out this out, right and left. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

03-19-2005, 03:53 PM	#123 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Irate, which "stat" is not relevant? The stat that says companies cut 1 million jobs? The stat that say we imported more food than exported? That we are at the bottom of the list in literacy, mathematical literacy, infant mortality? Which stat is irrelevant, because in our heyday we led the pack in positive ways, this tells me we lead now in negative ways. To downplay what the list is telling us, is to say we are doing fine. I don't think that list in any way shape or form allows us to believe that our country is doing fine. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

03-19-2005, 10:10 PM	#127 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	the point isn't that there is nothing to fix, the point is that this information is worthless. if we are to fix the problems we must demand real statistics with real analytical weight behind them. i dislike it when the blatantly obvious gets cast into the realm of personal opinion. it's not that i don't see value in these statistics, it's that there ISN'T value in the statistics. who among us would make any decision in life with this type of information? would you shop for a car or buy a house with a similar collection of data? of course not. how then could we begin to have a meaningful discussion about infinitely more serious and complex issues? there is no doubting your sincerity pan, but you must demand a better starting point for discussing the issue. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

03-21-2005, 02:04 AM	#129 (permalink)
Dyze Crazy	irat, this information is in no way worthless and does not need to be compared to any other country. The stats are horrible as they are without reference to other countries. The US claim to be one of the most developed countries and therefore 20 % should not think that the sun orbits the earth. Maybe in Indonesia 60 % believe so and 24 % in Japan but that does not matter. It is bad as it is. __________________ Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Willing is not enough, we must do.

03-21-2005, 07:15 AM	#131 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	When I lived in Singapore they taught all the Singaporeans that they were the best in the world in just about everything, really everything. From culinary to fashion, technology to urban planning. Lee Kuan Yew stood up and told everyone to be proud to be a Singaporean saying how they rose up from an impoverished nation like their neighbors to metropolis worthy of the world stage. Watching The King and I the other day, the teacher shows them a new map where Siam is not the largest thing in the center of the map, but just small part of the SE Asian peninsula. The prince was rather upset to discover this "new view." As I travel around the world these past number of years, I have come to realize that the world isn't much different from place to place. People have strong national pride towards their homelands, while sometimes they may be embarassed by particular moments, as a whole, they still are proud of their nation's position. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

03-26-2005, 05:28 PM	#134 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	So it's a good thing that 1 out of five americans isn't aware that the earth orbits the sun? Comparisons are nice and all, but there are many instances where i don't care what other people are doing when i decide what is acceptable for myself. If i only drink and drive one night a week, does that make me better than someone who drinks and drives three nights a week? Would you be happy if i told you that i sold crack to three schoolkids a week, as long as i didn't tell you about anyone who sold less drugs to only one schoolkid a week? We're 49th in world literacy. There's a comparison for you. We're 28th in math literacy. Another comparison. We're 37th in overall health care performance. What does "health care performance mean"? Well, i guess it depends on what your definition of "is" is. If 3 out of 5 americans thought civil rights were overrated would that be acceptable for you if you had nothing to compare it to? Last edited by filtherton; 03-26-2005 at 05:45 PM..

04-21-2005, 06:51 PM	#138 (permalink)
questone Crazy	I believe one should have a rational understanding of your relationship to your nation and a the people with whom you share a social contract.