We're number 37!! We're number 37!! - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

filtherton · 03-08-2005, 07:53 AM

Something surprisingly interesting from a local weekly paper. Now, before the more simplistic of you brand me an america hater i just want to point out that i'm not the problem here.

Quote:

America by the numbers
No. 1?

Image by Jane Sherman

by Michael Ventura
February 23, 2005

No concept lies more firmly embedded in our national character than the notion that the USA is "No. 1," "the greatest." Our broadcast media are, in essence, continuous advertisements for the brand name "America Is No. 1." Any office seeker saying otherwise would be committing political suicide. In fact, anyone saying otherwise will be labeled "un-American." We're an "empire," ain't we? Sure we are. An empire without a manufacturing base. An empire that must borrow $2 billion a day from its competitors in order to function. Yet the delusion is ineradicable. We're No. 1. Well...this is the country you really live in:

* The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (the New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).
* The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
* Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).
* "The International Adult Literacy Survey...found that Americans with less than nine years of education 'score worse than virtually all of the other countries'" (Jeremy Rifkin's superbly documented book The European Dream: How Europe's Vision of the Future Is Quietly Eclipsing the American Dream, p.78).
* Our workers are so ignorant and lack so many basic skills that American businesses spend $30 billion a year on remedial training (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004). No wonder they relocate elsewhere!
* "The European Union leads the U.S. in...the number of science and engineering graduates; public research and development (R&D) expenditures; and new capital raised" (The European Dream, p.70).
* "Europe surpassed the United States in the mid-1990s as the largest producer of scientific literature" (The European Dream, p.70).
* Nevertheless, Congress cut funds to the National Science Foundation. The agency will issue 1,000 fewer research grants this year (NYT, Dec. 21, 2004).
* Foreign applications to U.S. grad schools declined 28 percent last year. Foreign student enrollment on all levels fell for the first time in three decades, but increased greatly in Europe and China. Last year Chinese grad-school graduates in the U.S. dropped 56 percent, Indians 51 percent, South Koreans 28 percent (NYT, Dec. 21, 2004). We're not the place to be anymore.
* The World Health Organization "ranked the countries of the world in terms of overall health performance, and the U.S. [was]...37th." In the fairness of health care, we're 54th. "The irony is that the United States spends more per capita for health care than any other nation in the world" (The European Dream, pp.79-80). Pay more, get lots, lots less.
* "The U.S. and South Africa are the only two developed countries in the world that do not provide health care for all their citizens" (The European Dream, p.80). Excuse me, but since when is South Africa a "developed" country? Anyway, that's the company we're keeping.
* Lack of health insurance coverage causes 18,000 unnecessary American deaths a year. (That's six times the number of people killed on 9/11.) (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005.)
* "U.S. childhood poverty now ranks 22nd, or second to last, among the developed nations. Only Mexico scores lower" (The European Dream, p.81). Been to Mexico lately? Does it look "developed" to you? Yet it's the only "developed" country to score lower in childhood poverty.
* Twelve million American families--more than 10 percent of all U.S. households--"continue to struggle, and not always successfully, to feed themselves." Families that "had members who actually went hungry at some point last year" numbered 3.9 million (NYT, Nov. 22, 2004).

* The United States is 41st in the world in infant mortality. Cuba scores higher (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).
* Women are 70 percent more likely to die in childbirth in America than in Europe (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).
* The leading cause of death of pregnant women in this country is murder (CNN, Dec. 14, 2004).
* "Of the 20 most developed countries in the world, the U.S. was dead last in the growth rate of total compensation to its workforce in the 1980s.... In the 1990s, the U.S. average compensation growth rate grew only slightly, at an annual rate of about 0.1 percent" (The European Dream, p.39). Yet Americans work longer hours per year than any other industrialized country, and get less vacation time.
* "Sixty-one of the 140 biggest companies on the Global Fortune 500 rankings are European, while only 50 are U.S. companies" (The European Dream, p.66). "In a recent survey of the world's 50 best companies, conducted by Global Finance, all but one were European" (The European Dream, p.69).
* "Fourteen of the 20 largest commercial banks in the world today are European.... In the chemical industry, the European company BASF is the world's leader, and three of the top six players are European. In engineering and construction, three of the top five companies are European.... The two others are Japanese. Not a single American engineering and construction company is included among the world's top nine competitors. In food and consumer products, Nestlé and Unilever, two European giants, rank first and second, respectively, in the world. In the food and drugstore retail trade, two European companies...are first and second, and European companies make up five of the top ten. Only four U.S. companies are on the list" (The European Dream, p.68).
* The United States has lost 1.3 million jobs to China in the last decade (CNN, Jan. 12, 2005).
* U.S. employers eliminated 1 million jobs in 2004 (The Week, Jan. 14, 2005).
* Three million six hundred thousand Americans ran out of unemployment insurance last year; 1.8 million--one in five--unemployed workers are jobless for more than six months (NYT, Jan. 9, 2005).
* Japan, China, Taiwan, and South Korea hold 40 percent of our government debt. (That's why we talk nice to them.) "By helping keep mortgage rates from rising, China has come to play an enormous and little-noticed role in sustaining the American housing boom" (NYT, Dec. 4, 2004). Read that twice. We owe our housing boom to China, because they want us to keep buying all that stuff they manufacture.
* Sometime in the next 10 years Brazil will probably pass the U.S. as the world's largest agricultural producer. Brazil is now the world's largest exporter of chickens, orange juice, sugar, coffee, and tobacco. Last year, Brazil passed the U.S. as the world's largest beef producer. (Hear that, you poor deluded cowboys?) As a result, while we bear record trade deficits, Brazil boasts a $30 billion trade surplus (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
* As of last June, the U.S. imported more food than it exported (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
* Bush: 62,027,582 votes. Kerry: 59,026,003 votes. Number of eligible voters who didn't show up: 79,279,000 (NYT, Dec. 26, 2004). That's more than a third. Way more. If more than a third of Iraqis don't show for their election, no country in the world will think that election legitimate.
* One-third of all U.S. children are born out of wedlock. One-half of all U.S. children will live in a one-parent house (CNN, Dec. 10, 2004).
* "Americans are now spending more money on gambling than on movies, videos, DVDs, music, and books combined" (The European Dream, p.28).
* "Nearly one out of four Americans [believe] that using violence to get what they want is acceptable" (The European Dream, p.32).
* Forty-three percent of Americans think torture is sometimes justified, according to a PEW Poll (Associated Press, Aug. 19, 2004).
* "Nearly 900,000 children were abused or neglected in 2002, the last year for which such data are available" (USA Today, Dec. 21, 2004).
* "The International Association of Chiefs of Police said that cuts by the [Bush] administration in federal aid to local police agencies have left the nation more vulnerable than ever" (USA Today, Nov. 17, 2004).

No. 1? In most important categories we're not even in the Top 10 anymore. Not even close.

The USA is "No. 1" in nothing but weaponry, consumer spending, debt, and delusion.

High/lowlights:

Quote:

* The United States is 41st in the world in infant mortality. Cuba scores higher (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).
* Women are 70 percent more likely to die in childbirth in America than in Europe (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).
* "U.S. childhood poverty now ranks 22nd, or second to last, among the developed nations. Only Mexico scores lower" (The European Dream, p.81). Been to Mexico lately? Does it look "developed" to you? Yet it's the only "developed" country to score lower in childhood poverty.
* "Of the 20 most developed countries in the world, the U.S. was dead last in the growth rate of total compensation to its workforce in the 1980s.... In the 1990s, the U.S. average compensation growth rate grew only slightly, at an annual rate of about 0.1 percent" (The European Dream, p.39). Yet Americans work longer hours per year than any other industrialized country, and get less vacation time.
* The World Health Organization "ranked the countries of the world in terms of overall health performance, and the U.S. [was]...37th." In the fairness of health care, we're 54th. "The irony is that the United States spends more per capita for health care than any other nation in the world" (The European Dream, pp.79-80). Pay more, get lots, lots less.

Something to think about. Cuba scores better in infant mortality. We're 37th in terms of overall health performance. Hooray. How does this happen?

I notice that many of the facts are culled from a book entitle "The European Dream". I admit that i know nothing about the book or its author.

It seems that many americans just assume that america is the worldwide leader in everything worthwhile. I'm pretty sure that at one point we were a world leader in many things worthwhile. This list just seems to hit home the idea that our country is in a state of decline.

Superbelt · 03-08-2005, 08:01 AM

Well, you leave the important stuff out like number of troops stationed in foreign countries, per capita spent on weapons stockpiling, and lowest percentage of taxes paid by the top 30% of the taxpaying populace.

I believe we lead in all those categories.

NCB · 03-08-2005, 08:02 AM

And yet, people are still dying (literally and figurativley) to come here.

Go figure

frogza · 03-08-2005, 08:15 AM

Americans in general think that knowing who won the latest "reality" show is more important than science, math or literacy, that is if we consider time spent as an indicator. The reason for our failing is that we lead the world only in leisure. As a society we are lazy. We spend millions of dollars a year looking for the easiest way to pass the time, television, movies etc. We have the ultimate "microwave mentality", if it takes longer than 45 seconds to achieve a goal it's just too much trouble. We will never be the top of anything worthwhile while sitting in a recliner with a remote in our hand.

Seaver · 03-08-2005, 08:17 AM

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing many of those numbers. Now I realize that Cuba may very well have better educational system (for gradeschool), but how easy would it be to scew the numbers of infant deaths to make him look better?

Because... not one actually GOES to those countries to investigate...

NCB · 03-08-2005, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing many of those numbers. Now I realize that Cuba may very well have better educational system (for gradeschool), but how easy would it be to scew the numbers of infant deaths to make him look better?

Because... not one actually GOES to those countries to investigate...

You haven't noticed the new trend?? The rich in this country are sending their children (and selves) to access Cuba's world class education system and healthcare facilitites. Afterall, they do have universal healthcare which is far superior than our private HC system.

irateplatypus · 03-08-2005, 08:26 AM

come on filtherton... you can't be serious.

Charlatan · 03-08-2005, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

And yet, people are still dying (literally and figurativley) to come here.

Go figure

Go team marketing America!

dksuddeth · 03-08-2005, 08:33 AM

eye of the beholder.

roachboy · 03-08-2005, 08:39 AM

and here we run into one of the most surreal aspects of the right patriotic marketing campaign--that conservatives cannot face even the slightest amount of data that might puncture their assumption that the united states is the most fabulous of all possible nation-states, that cowboy capitalism is the most humane possible system and so forth.

most of the problems outlined above with the reality of the american system are not new--some of them even require attention--but the only certainty in the world i know of is that the right will never be able to address any of it because they cant bring themselves to be self-critical.

for example--the import/export imbalances are at once a direct result of globalizing capitalism and are irrelevant at the same time--because the dynamics of globalizing capitalism runs against the continued importance of nation-states. the entire conservative movement is geared toward trying to preserve this antiquated notion of the nation-state because--and only because--without it their ideology collapses. to do this, they need to never look at the reality of the economic system that the rest of their politics leaves them no choice but to defend as an unqualified good.

the american health care system is a disaster--best to deal with it by either refusing to look or qualifying all possible alternatives as communist.

the american educational system is among the most brutal in terms of reproducing the class structure at its most naked and unjustifiable--the problem seems to be the insistence on tying educational funding to local property taxes, which has the effect of rendering spatial segregation on class lines nearly invisible and assuring that the children of the poor are routed one way and those of the affluent another. of course because the right cannot imagine any alternative that would involve equalizing funding levels across localities--because it would involve the state (which is the inverse of markets for them) they cannot propose a coherent alternative--so you get this absurd, self-defeating emphasis on obviously futile programs like vouchers...

it goes on and on.

better to trade looking at reality for being able to wave a flag and "feel good about america"

NCB · 03-08-2005, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Go team marketing America!

I'm not marketing anything, nor am I trashing the original post and it's stats. I'm just stating the obvious that despite all this, people are killing themselves to get here. That's all.

DJ Happy · 03-08-2005, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

And yet, people are still dying (literally and figurativley) to come here.

Go figure

Well, when you live in country number 126, country 37 doesn't seem like a particularly bad deal.

The article doesn't say that America is a shithole, but it does give cause for concern given the decline in standards and that most Americans (and many people in developing countries) probably regard America as being the most developed, advanced and prosperous country on the planet.

NCB · 03-08-2005, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Happy

Well, when you live in country number 126, country 37 doesn't seem like a particularly bad deal.
The article doesn't say that America is a shithole, but it does give cause for concern given the decline in standards and that most Americans (and many people in developing countries) probably regard America as being the most developed, advanced and prosperous country on the planet.

Well someone needs to inform the Cubans about their society as a whole, because last I've heard, their still trying to float into this country with innertubes and canoes.

roachboy · 03-08-2005, 08:54 AM

but the article *does* indicate problems and trends that shoudl be taken seriously.
what i was saying is that i find it beyond bizarre that addressing concrete problems gets shoved aside by idiotic flagwaving.

DJ Happy · 03-08-2005, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

Well someone needs to inform the Cubans about their society as a whole, because last I've heard, their still trying to float into this country with innertubes and canoes.

NCB, you've already highlighted the part of my post that I would use to respond to you.

The article listed 35 points - Cuba ranked above the US in one of them. You can either look at the bigger picture or make snide comments about minute details - your choice.

Unless you genuinely believe that those Cubans trying to get into America are doing so solely under the misperception that the US has lower infant mortality rates than Cuba, in which case, carry on.

NCB · 03-08-2005, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Happy

NCB, you've already highlighted the part of my post that I would use to respond to you.

The article listed 35 points - Cuba ranked above the US in one of them. You can either look at the bigger picture or make snide comments about minute details - your choice.

Unless you genuinely believe that those Cubans trying to get into America are doing so solely under the misperception that the US has lower infant mortality rates than Cuba, in which case, carry on.

I apologize for the sarcasm. Being a child of immigrant parents from third world countries (one being from Cuba who floated over in one of those rickety old makeshift rafts BTW), seeing shit like this makes me want to shout at people who take this country for granted. People's lack of gratitude for all they have and all they can have in this country (not just materially, but spiritually and personally) drives me insane.

Does that mean we're peferct? Of course not, but overall this is still the greatest nation on Earth that people are dying to get into. And that fact, is nowhere to be seen in the article

Superbelt · 03-08-2005, 09:23 AM

We don't take this country for granted. We just have high standards. We want to see American be the best country that we can make it and rankings like this don't help matters.
Some of us see this nation waste money on way too much defense, unnecessary wars, and unfesable weapons alongside lopsided tax cuts that make the top 10% of americans pay a smaller percentage of their income than everyone else and then we look at the rankings like this... knowing we could make this place better if we just got our prorities straight as a society.

We're not perfect, but those in control aren't even trying to move us towards the ideal.

Willravel · 03-08-2005, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

Some of us see this nation waste money on way too much defense, unnecessary wars, and unfesable weapons alongside lopsided tax cuts that make the top 10% of americans pay a smaller percentage of their income than everyone else and then we look at the rankings like this... knowing we could make this place better if we just got our prorities straight as a society.

We're not perfect, but those in control aren't even trying to move us towards the ideal.

I wonder what that $200 billion going to Iraq would have done to try and shift just one of the statistics above. Could we be in the top 15 with literacy by investing $200 billion wisely into the school system? Could we take back those 1.3 million jobs from China? Could we see more advancement in the area of science with an extra $200 billion?

Nope. The money is either out of the country, or in the pockets of some of the richest people in the US.

DJ Happy · 03-08-2005, 09:40 AM

NCB, why do you think that the US is the greatest nation on earth? It's not a theory that I would subscribe to, but I would be interested to hear why you do.

Charlatan · 03-08-2005, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

I'm not marketing anything, nor am I trashing the original post and it's stats. I'm just stating the obvious that despite all this, people are killing themselves to get here. That's all.

...and I was making a comment that regardless of the stats people still want to come to America and this is thanks, in part, to the way that America markets itself to the rest of the world.

Seaver · 03-08-2005, 09:43 AM

Quote:

and here we run into one of the most surreal aspects of the right patriotic marketing campaign--that conservatives cannot face even the slightest amount of data that might puncture their assumption that the united states is the most fabulous of all possible nation-states, that cowboy capitalism is the most humane possible system and so forth.

That's an interesting, if arrogant, assumption. Because... I am a conservative and you conveniently leave out mine, and many others who dont fit that. Now I could post stuff about how liberals close their eyes, clasp their hands over their ears whenever good news of international relations or positive outcomes in the war.... but I dont. Painting with a broad brush like that is a bitch aint it?

roachboy · 03-08-2005, 09:52 AM

seaver: read through the thread.
sadly for your position, i have done far too much research on conservative media, conservative ideology--what i say is not an unreasonable assessment of the situation your politics tend to put you into. that said, please keep in mind that i write almost entirely about the logic of the position in general--none of it accounts for teh complexity of indivudal relations to that ideology.

that said, there is a difference between the position i outline and taking potshots as you do. but whatever, it is of no real consequence.

Manx · 03-08-2005, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

I'm not marketing anything, nor am I trashing the original post and it's stats. I'm just stating the obvious that despite all this, people are killing themselves to get here. That's all.

I'm not sure why that point is somehow meaningful to you.

There are two aspects which would have to be considered to understand your point:

1- Marketing. America is marketed as the greatest place on Earth. Tide is marketed as the best laundry detergent. Marketing does not make it so.

2- If no one at all was trying to get into the U.S., no one would believe that America is better than where they currently live. Is the whole world trying to get into the U.S.? Obviously not. So it then goes to show that America is not better than the whole world. That, oh I don't know, a few hundred thousand people or a few million people are actively trying to get into the U.S. is an exceptionally small piece of the pie.

Couple this small pie portion of people attempting to move here with the marketing (based primarily on turn of the 20th century immigration policies) and your point dissolves into nothingness.

The point you could make about the list is that, although the U.S. might be lower in one category in comparison to Cuba, that does not mean Cuba is not lower in a dozen others. But even that would be a weak point as the list is not suggesting that Cuba is, overall, a better place than the U.S. But it is likely that other countries are, overall, better places than the U.S. by virtue of overall higher marks on more of the items on the list.

As an aside, if the U.K. or Sweden or France or even Russia were in close proximity to Cuba, I bet we'd see a rather proportionate flow of Cubans to those countries as with the U.S. The raft trip across the Atlantic is dangerous, I hear.

Superbelt · 03-08-2005, 09:59 AM

And it's a long walk from Central America as well.

cyrnel · 03-08-2005, 10:55 AM

I know it's naive, but wouldn't it be more interesting to discuss the individual items and possible solutions? We seem to fall into the polarized horse race too easily.

For myself, the first half page hit home. One family member questions the moon missions, another worries that microwaves will leave her food radioactive, and she graduated in the top 10% of her university class. (granted, 20yrs ago) A niece fell into a group of friends who call any attempts to learn "sad", and in so doing she went from a stunningly smart 10yr old with a wall of books to a 15 yr old who barely passes classes, lives for her next "distraction" (movies, CD's, TV show), has had numerous bouts of VD, and says it's "no different from TV" to manipulate her parents against each other to get what she wants.

Discouraging stuff. Anyone else have red flags in their family?

retsuki03 · 03-08-2005, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I notice that many of the facts are culled from a book entitle "The European Dream". I admit that i know nothing about the book or its author.

Someone from amazon read the book:

Quote:

I found this to be a rather irritating book - primarily due to Jeremy Rifkin's highly biased treatment of his subject - the European Dream vis a vis the American Dream. However, the book does serve a useful purpose in that it might cause the reader to give more serious consideration to the issues involved.

In my opinion, it would be useful to have a book inverting Rifkin's failed attempt and providing a considerably more objective treatment of this topic.

Rifkin is an American social activist. To understand his biases in praise of the European Dream and disdainful of the American Dream, it is useful to know his background.

He currently is the President of a small non-profit foundation that apparently primarily consults for leaders within the European Union. Some of the organizations in which he has been a principal include President of the Greenhouse Crisis Foundation, Head of the Beyond Beef [animal-rights] Coalition, founder of the Citizens Commission and organizer of the 1968 March on the Pentagon [both were anti-Vietnam War protests related to alleged war crimes] and Founder of the Counter-Culture Peoples' Bicentennial Commission [an activist alternative to U. S. Government plans to celebrate the Bicentennial].

In the author's view, the European Dream emphasizes community relationships, cultural diversity, quality of life, sustainable development, deep play, universal human rights and the rights of nature, and global cooperation. In direct contrast, he depicts the American Dream as emphasizing individual autonomy, assimilation, the accumulation of wealth, unlimited material growth, unrelenting toil, property rights, and unilateral exercise of power. In particular, underlying the author's view is his enthusiasm for European polices supporting redistribution of wealth. He clearly has a socialist viewpoint although, curiously, the terms socialist and Socialism seldom appear in the book.

The author is no stranger to invidious comparisons. The contrasts he draws between the European Union and the United States are sprinkled with pejorative adjectives. U. S. market capitalism becomes "unrestrained" market capitalism, the American Dream is "old" and "irrelevant," and so forth.

A review in the L. A. Times once referred to the author's writing style as "logical garbage." As a typical illustration of this, here is a sentence from the current book: - - "The birth of cybernetics, systems thinking, information theory, and the emergence of complexity theory and the theories of dissipative structures and self-organization have all contributed to the deconstruction and fall of the scientific orthodoxy of traditional Enlightenment science, while helping to chart a fundamental new path for science in the new century." Read carefully, this sentence lacks real meaning.

Here are a few [of the very many] areas in which I find myself critical of this book. I quote the book followed by my comment.

1. "The people of Europe have a common European Parliament with many powers previously reserved to nation-states, a European Court of Justice that supersedes the laws of the respective countries, and a European Commission to regulate trade, commerce and many other things which used to be handled exclusively by national governments....It has agreed to establish a common foreign policy, and with the ratification of its new constitution, it will have a Europe-wide foreign minister."

Looking ahead, it seems logical to consider that the concept of direct European taxation will eventually arise from Brussels - if so, that may be the point when a very sizeable crack will appear in the structure of the EU.

2. "Network commerce is too quick, too dense, and too globally encompassing to be constrained by national borders. Nations-states [such as the U. S.] are too geographically limited to oversee inter-regional and global commerce and harmonize the growing social and environmental risks that accompany a globalized world."

The implication of this statement is that the U. S. will be unable to participate competitively in network commerce against the EU. In actuality, what the EU is attempting to do is to stitch its nation-state members into a regional political and economic entity that emulates the U. S. and there is little evidence that this desired cohesion has been reached. Basically, the EU is striving to reach an integrated status that the U. S. reached long ago.

3. "The successes and failures of the EU are being watched in every region of the world as nation-state leaders rethink the art of governance in a global era."

This immediately brings to mind Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations," a concept positing the eventual groupings of nation-states into regional powers based on their having similar cultural identities. However, the EU actually is gravitating toward inclusion of dissimilar members - not to mention the large and growing number of Muslims already in the EU whose basic affinity is typically not to the nation-state in which they reside.

4. "Although [the EU] coordinates and regulates activity that takes place within the territorial boundaries of its nation-state members, it has no claim to territory and is an extra-territorial institution." .... "The member states of the EU still control the territory they represent, but their once absolute power over geography has been steadily eroded by EU legislative encroachments from the bureaucrats in Brussels."

The first sentence states that the EU has no claim to territory. This statement is rendered meaningless by the second sentence that shows that the ability of nation-states to control their territory is being steadily eroded.

5. "The style of polycentric governance is characterized by continuous dialogue and negotiations between all the players in the many networks that make up its ever-changing economic, social, and political field of influence. The new genre of leader is like a mediator. Coordination replaces command."

This is management by committee - a practice that consistently had been shown to be always slow and inherently ineffective.

6. "....markets and governments are extensions of the culture. They are secondary, not primary, institutions. The civil society - along with the deeper cultural forces that underlie it - is pushing to reestablish its central role in the scheme of public life."

The clear implication of this statement is that academicians, philosophers, and consultants [e.g. the author] should be primary [rather than secondary] in policy decision making. Obviously, the author has no faith in government by elected representatives.

7. "Europeans have a very different idea in mind of what ought to constitute a superpower in a globalized society."...."It's not force of arms but negotiating skills and openness to dialogue and conflict resolution that are the distinguishing characteristics of this kind of superpower."

For rationality and cooperation to prevail in the resolution of differences, both sides need to be rational. In dealings with nations that have irrational viewpoints and only respect power, there is a necessity for force and sanctions to be available for use as negotiation tools.

8. "In Europe, intellectuals are increasingly debating the question of the great shift from a risk-taking age to a risk-prevention era."

Here we have an illustration of one of the major differences between Europe and the U. S. The European public pays far more attention to the "chattering class" who, although they may have no actual standing in government, seem to greatly influence public attitudes.

9. "The "precautionary principle" has become the centerpiece of EU regulatory policy governing science and technology."...."A proposed experiment, or technology application, or product introduction is subject to review and even suspension in cases where scientific evidence is insufficient, inconclusive, or uncertain and scientific evaluation indicates that there are reasonable grounds for concern that the potentially dangerous effects on the environment, human, and animal health may be inconsistent with the high level of protection chosen by the EU."

It is not difficult to imagine that the application of the "precautionary principle" will result in very serious delays in the development of new technologies and services - the delays all coming from the difficulty inherent in evaluating degrees of uncertainty and risk. The review process undoubtedly will be exacerbated by social activist critics [e. g. the author].

10. "The most likely candidate to follow on the heels of the EU is the East Asian community - with or without China's participation."

I very much doubt that any regional entity could emerge in East Asia without China being the dominant player.

11. "If we Americans could redirect our deeply held sense of personal responsibility from the more narrow goal of individual material aggrandizement to a more expansive commitment of advancing a global ethics, we might yet be able to remake the American Dream along lines more compatible with the emerging European Dream."

There seems to be little value in seeking to become "more compatible" with the European Dream considering its principal features of an overly-redistributive society and the inevitable consequent erosion of individual initiative and personal responsibility.

12. "When asked what values are very important to them, 95 percent of Europeans put "helping others" at the top of their list of priorities."

This seems at considerable variance with statements by the author which mention the overwhelming and still unresolved problems within the EU of anti-Semitism, rejection of further immigration, and failure to assimilate the Muslims already resident within the European community.

Finally, it should be noted that the last few pages of this book represent a rather major change in direction from its overall theme. The author abruptly changes his focus from an idealized depiction of the EU and, instead, introduces a set of reality-based doubts about the ability of the Europeans to implement their European Dream. The author also changes from his unrelenting negative depiction of American characteristics and beliefs and, instead, introduces a number of strengths that he finds admirable in the American Dream. It's just as though the author has realized, at the last moment, the extent that he has written an unbalanced, non-objective book and wishes to make amends for his negative remarks about his fellow Americans and the United States.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filtherton

Something surprisingly interesting from a local weekly paper. Now, before the more simplistic of you brand me an america hater i just want to point out that i'm not the problem here.

Is your local paper the Austin Chronicle? Because that is where this article is from. This guy is a commie. No one I know in Austin reads that rag. It compares the EU and the US. It should compare NAFTA and the US.

KMA-628 · 03-08-2005, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

Well someone needs to inform the Cubans about their society as a whole, because last I've heard, their still trying to float into this country with innertubes and canoes.

Yep, I "played" with quite a few of them.

You outta see their faces when they find out we are taking them back to Cuba.

Not happy campers, let me tell you.

Charlatan · 03-08-2005, 12:06 PM

retsuki03 you can complain about the author's commie conclusions all you want... it doesn't change the fact that the statistics are valid.

That said, I can't believe you actually play that old saw... Just brand him a commie... that's all you need to discredit anyone. What, are you living in 1955?

It is a proven fact that countries with extensive social programs have much better educated,healthier and productive citizens (Canada, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, etc.). Yes, the taxes are higher but it is frequently seen as a good thing by those who live there.

retsuki03 · 03-08-2005, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

retsuki03 you can complain about the author's commie conclusions all you want... it doesn't change the fact that the statistics are valid.

That said, I can't believe you actually play that old saw... Just brand him a commie... that's all you need to discredit anyone. What, are you living in 1955?

Seems to work for liberals. "You can't trust Fox News!" "That scientific study was sponsored by an evil corporation!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

It is a proven fact that countries with extensive social programs have much better educated,healthier and productive citizens (Canada, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, etc.). Yes, the taxes are higher but it is frequently seen as a good thing by those who live there.

I don't care about the majority of the statistics. Our GDP growth rate is still better than those countries, but I wonder how Sweden's social systems would do if they had the immigrant influx of the US thrown in every year..

Charlatan · 03-08-2005, 12:30 PM

Not sure what the stats are in the US but in Sweden about 12% of the population were born abroad and about one fifth of the population are immigrants or children of immigrants...

GDP is a lousy way of measuring economic wealth... For example, dropping bombs is a plus for traditional GDP whereas health and wellness of nation are expenses. All depends on how you look at things.

host · 03-08-2005, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMA-628

Yep, I "played" with quite a few of them.

You outta see their faces when they find out we are taking them back to Cuba.

Not happy campers, let me tell you.

I expect more than this from you, KMA-628.

The point is,what are you working for, and what are you living for?
The U.S. is now competing with an economic union that, on occasion, exploits
the benefits of U.S. military power, while it delivers an average six weeks annual vacation to it's population, along with subsidized health care and rising wages when compared to compensation in the U.S.

The EU accomplishes these attractive results while it impedes the concentration of wealth accumulation, and still attracts the to it's domecile, the top corporations of the world.

Are you better off living in a country with no personal health care protection,
a huge annual defense expenditure that is aggravated by an aggressive foreign policy, an average two weeks of vacation, and a political influence on your tax system that encourages the concentration of wealth to the top wealth holders, as a matter of national tax policy, even as the proportion of children and women of child bearing age living in poverty continues to rise, and federal government deficit growth explodes ?

Why won't those who post one or two dismissive lines to this thread, discuss the core issues, and the measures of the trend towards a 2nd class quality of life for too many American workers that coincides with tax freedom legislated for the wealthy and the decline of union membership for American workers?

Quote:

<a href="http://www.globalpolicy.org/globaliz/cultural/2004/0817eurodream.htm">http://www.globalpolicy.org/globaliz/cultural/2004/0817eurodream.htm</a>
Worlds Apart on the Vision Thing
By Jeremy Rifkin
Globe and Mail
August 17, 2004

In a partisan America, where virtually every value has become fair game for criticism and controversy, there is one value that remains sacrosanct: the American Dream -- the idea that anyone, regardless of the circumstances to which they're born, can make of their lives as they choose, by dint of diligence, determination and hard work. The American Dream unites Americans across ethnic and class divides and gives shared purpose and direction to the American way of life.

The problem is, one-third of all Americans, according to a recent U.S. national survey, no longer believe in the American Dream. Some have lost faith because they worked hard all their lives only to find hardship and despair at the end of the line. Others question the very dream itself, arguing that its underlying tenets have become less relevant in an increasingly interconnected and interdependent world. For the first time, the American Dream no longer serves as the rallying point for everyone in America.

A new European Dream, meanwhile, is beginning to capture the world's imagination. That dream has now been codified in the form of a draft European constitution, and Europeans are currently debating whether to ratify its contents and accept its underlying values as the core values of a new Europe. Europe's vision of the future may have greater resonance -- a kind of grand reversal, if you will, of what occurred 200 years ago when millions of Europeans looked to America in search of a new vision.

Twenty-five nations, representing 455 million people, have joined together to create a "United States" of Europe. Like the United States of America, this vast political entity has its own empowering myth. Although still in its adolescence, the European Dream is the first transnational vision, one far better suited to the next stage in the human journey. Europeans are beginning to adopt a new global consciousness that extends beyond, and below, the borders of their nation-states, deeply embedding them in an increasingly interconnected world.

Americans are used to thinking of their country as the most successful on Earth. That's no longer the case: The European Union has grown to become the third-largest governing institution in the world. Though its land mass is half the size of the continental United States, its $10.5-trillion (U.S.) gross domestic product now eclipses the U.S. GDP, making it the world's largest economy. The EU is already the world's leading exporter and largest internal trading market. Sixty-one of the 140 biggest companies on the Global Fortune 500 rankings are European; only 50 are U.S. companies.

The comparisons are even more revealing when it comes to the quality of life. In the EU, for example, there are 322 physicians per 100,00 people; in the United States, it's 279 physicians per 100,000 people. The United States ranks 26th among the industrial nations in infant mortality, well below the EU average. The average lifespan in the 15 most developed E.U. countries is now 78.2 years, compared to 76.9 years in the United States.

When it comes to wealth distribution -- a crucial measure of a country's ability to deliver on the promise of prosperity -- the United States ranks 24th among the industrial nations. All 18 of the most developed European countries have less income inequality between rich and poor. There are now more poor people living in America than in the 16 European nations for which data are available.

America is also more dangerous: The U.S. homicide rate is four times higher than the EU's. Even more disturbing, the rates of childhood homicides, suicides and firearms-related deaths in the United States exceed those of the other 25 wealthiest nations. Although the United States has only 4 per cent of the world's population, it contains one-quarter of the world's entire prison population.

Europeans often say Americans "live to work," while they "work to live." The average paid vacation time in Europe is now six weeks a year. By contrast, Americans, on the average, receive only two weeks. When one considers what makes a people great and what constitutes a better way of life, Europe is beginning to surpass America.

Nowhere is the contrast between the European Dream and the American Dream sharper than when it comes to the definition of personal freedom.

For Americans, freedom has long been associated with autonomy; the more wealth one amasses, the more independent one is in the world. One is free by becoming self-reliant and an island onto oneself. With wealth comes exclusivity, and with exclusivity comes security.

For Europeans, freedom is not found in autonomy but in community. It's about belonging, not belongings.

The American Dream puts an emphasis on economic growth, personal wealth and independence. The new European Dream focuses more on sustainable development, quality of life and interdependence. The American Dream pays homage to the work ethic and religious heritage. The European Dream, more attuned to leisure, is secular to the core. The American Dream depends on assimilation. The European Dream, by contrast, is based on preserving one's cultural identity in a multicultural world.

Americans are more willing to use military force to protect what we perceive to be our vital self-interests. Europeans favor diplomacy, economic assistance to avert conflict, and peacekeeping operations to maintain order. The American Dream is deeply personal and little concerned with the rest of humanity. The European Dream is more systemic in nature and, therefore, more bound to the welfare of the planet.

That isn't to say that Europe is a utopia. Europeans have become increasingly hostile toward newly arrived immigrants and asylum-seekers. Anti-Semitism is on the rise again, as is discrimination against Muslims and religious minorities. While Europeans berate America for having a trigger-happy foreign policy, they are more than willing, on occasion, to let the U.S. armed forces safeguard European security interests. And even its supporters say the Brussels-based EU's governing machinery is a maze of bureaucratic red tape, aloof from the European citizens they supposedly serve.

The point, however, is not whether the Europeans are living up to their dream. We Americans have never fully lived up to our own dream. What's important is that a new generation of Europeans is creating a radical new vision for the future -- one better suited to meet the challenges of an increasingly globalizing world in the 21st century.

Canada finds itself caught between these two 21st-century superpowers. Sharing a common border with the most powerful economy in the world makes Canada more vulnerable to U.S. economic and political influence, and some observers even suggest that Canada might be forced eventually to become part of a greater American transnational space. The North American free-trade agreement may be the first step down that road.

On the other hand, Canadians' own deeply felt values are more closely attuned to the emerging European Dream. Could Canada lobby to become part of the European Union? In a world of instant communications, fast transportation and global economic integration, the prospect of Canada's enjoying at least a special associational partnership with the EU is not inconceivable. The EU and Canada laid the foundation for such a possibility in their 1996 joint political declaration on EU-Canada relations, designed to focus on economic, trade, security and other transnational issues. Canada could edge ever closer to its European soulmate in the decades to come.

NCB · 03-08-2005, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Happy

NCB, why do you think that the US is the greatest nation on earth? It's not a theory that I would subscribe to, but I would be interested to hear why you do.

DJ, you're breaking my heart, man! Why do you "love" this country the way you do?

Like my sig says, I hope liberals don't love their children the way they love their country

alansmithee · 03-08-2005, 12:45 PM

I would wager that many of the things that the above article points out as lacking in America (at least dealing with education and science) were never things that America was top, or near the top in. Remember, there was a large period of time where approximately 15% of the national population was barred from decent schooling. Even as time progressed education was not shown to be a priority for minorities. And on top of that, currently we have a large, mainly uneducated immigrant population. Much of the EU has very strict immigration policies, and don't deal with the same problems as the US.

America's "greatness" has never come from it's masses. America has been, and continues to be, great because it excels in most (if not all) areas. Even though the average American might have less scientific knowledge than the average European, America still leads in scientific development. Even if the average state of health is lower, America still has the best medical facilities. And America's GDP is still tops in the world.

I think it comes down to what metric you want to use to measure greatness. If you think greatness is measured by the state that the majority of the population is in, then America will lag behind the EU. But if you think that greatness is measured by having access to the best the world has to offer, then the EU would be behind. It's all a matter of what you define as great.

host · 03-08-2005, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

I would wager that many of the things that the above article points out as lacking in America (at least dealing with education and science) were never things that America was top, or near the top in. Remember, there was a large period of time where approximately 15% of the national population was barred from decent schooling. Even as time progressed education was not shown to be a priority for minorities. And on top of that, currently we have a large, mainly uneducated immigrant population. Much of the EU has very strict immigration policies, and don't deal with the same problems as the US.

America's "greatness" has never come from it's masses. America has been, and continues to be, great because it excels in most (if not all) areas. Even though the average American might have less scientific knowledge than the average European, America still leads in scientific development. Even if the average state of health is lower, America still has the best medical facilities. And America's GDP is still tops in the world.

I think it comes down to what metric you want to use to measure greatness. If you think greatness is measured by the state that the majority of the population is in, then America will lag behind the EU. But if you think that greatness is measured by having access to the best the world has to offer, then the EU would be behind. It's all a matter of what you define as great.

How do you address the quality of life comparisons of the average EU worker, compared to the average US worker. It's well and good to compare the top achievers, but to dismiss the "masses" where most of us live, ignores or minimizes the diference between having six weeks vacation and guaranteed medical care, vs. getting two weeks off per year and living one paycheck away from a layoff that could end one's healthcare coverage, or a sudden illness that could bankrupt any one of us. Where is the comparison?

Manx · 03-08-2005, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

DJ, you're breaking my heart, man! Why do you "love" this country the way you do?

Like my sig says, I hope liberals don't love their children the way they love their country

So in order to love something, in your mind, you must turn it into a fantasy?

Charlatan · 03-08-2005, 01:33 PM

I have no "love" for my country. I don't believe anyone should have something as irrational as an emotional commitment to the place they live.

I believe one should have a rational understanding of your relationship to your nation and a the people with whom you share a social contract.

Manx · 03-08-2005, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

Even though the average American might have less scientific knowledge than the average European, America still leads in scientific development.

This is becoming less and less true on a daily basis. Partially due to the higher average scientific knowledge of Europeans and partially due to the preference for non-science of the administration and its supporters.

Quote:

Even if the average state of health is lower, America still has the best medical facilities.

How does that work ??? If the average state of health is lower, America can't have the best medical facilities. It might have the single best hospital in the world, but if that hospital is only available to a handful of people in America, it can't be said that America has the best medical facilities.

Quote:

I think it comes down to what metric you want to use to measure greatness. If you think greatness is measured by the state that the majority of the population is in, then America will lag behind the EU.

That sounds like a pretty damn good measurement stick, right there. Most people in America lag behind most people in Europe. Which certainly allows for a small, small group of Americans to have a significantly better life than most Europeans. But that doesn't actually mean anything, now does it? Bill Gates is technically the most successful man on the planet - if he lived in Australia that wouldn't make Australia the most successful country on the planet. The average is the measurement - not the extremely good, but rare.

Quote:

But if you think that greatness is measured by having access to the best the world has to offer, then the EU would be behind.

Access is the issue. All Americans do not have access to the excellent and rare aspects of America. Far more Europeans have access to the far more common and not quite as excellent aspects of Europe.

Quote:

It's all a matter of what you define as great.

Certainly is. And if we define inaccessible things as great, and accessible things as poor, we've pretty much just painted ourselves into a box of miserableness.

filtherton · 03-08-2005, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retsuki03

Someone from amazon read the book:

Thanks for the background check. It's good to know that jeremy rifkin is most likely a partisan hack. Hackery aside, i don't see any reason to doubt his stats.

Quote:

Is your local paper the Austin Chronicle? Because that is where this article is from. This guy is a commie. No one I know in Austin reads that rag. It compares the EU and the US. It should compare NAFTA and the US.

My local paper is the City Pages, which is where i got this article is from. Sorry, but calling someone a commie as a means of attacking his credibility is a little bush league, dontcha think? Why not attack his credibility with something credible?

I don't really care if you agree with them or not. From what it looks like, most can't even get past the idea that america isn't the best ever at everything.

Pacifier · 03-08-2005, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I notice that many of the facts are culled from a book entitle "The European Dream". I admit that i know nothing about the book or its author.

A review of the Book (and two others about the same topic):
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17726

skinnymofo · 03-08-2005, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCB
And yet, people are still dying (literally and figurativley) to come here.

Go figure

Go team marketing America!

well if you move to america, the chance at having your country bombed and dying as a civilian casualty is virtually nil

03-08-2005, 08:26 AM	#7 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	come on filtherton... you can't be serious. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

03-08-2005, 08:33 AM	#9 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	eye of the beholder. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

03-08-2005, 08:39 AM	#10 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	and here we run into one of the most surreal aspects of the right patriotic marketing campaign--that conservatives cannot face even the slightest amount of data that might puncture their assumption that the united states is the most fabulous of all possible nation-states, that cowboy capitalism is the most humane possible system and so forth. most of the problems outlined above with the reality of the american system are not new--some of them even require attention--but the only certainty in the world i know of is that the right will never be able to address any of it because they cant bring themselves to be self-critical. for example--the import/export imbalances are at once a direct result of globalizing capitalism and are irrelevant at the same time--because the dynamics of globalizing capitalism runs against the continued importance of nation-states. the entire conservative movement is geared toward trying to preserve this antiquated notion of the nation-state because--and only because--without it their ideology collapses. to do this, they need to never look at the reality of the economic system that the rest of their politics leaves them no choice but to defend as an unqualified good. the american health care system is a disaster--best to deal with it by either refusing to look or qualifying all possible alternatives as communist. the american educational system is among the most brutal in terms of reproducing the class structure at its most naked and unjustifiable--the problem seems to be the insistence on tying educational funding to local property taxes, which has the effect of rendering spatial segregation on class lines nearly invisible and assuring that the children of the poor are routed one way and those of the affluent another. of course because the right cannot imagine any alternative that would involve equalizing funding levels across localities--because it would involve the state (which is the inverse of markets for them) they cannot propose a coherent alternative--so you get this absurd, self-defeating emphasis on obviously futile programs like vouchers... it goes on and on. better to trade looking at reality for being able to wave a flag and "feel good about america" __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-08-2005, 08:54 AM	#14 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	but the article does indicate problems and trends that shoudl be taken seriously. what i was saying is that i find it beyond bizarre that addressing concrete problems gets shoved aside by idiotic flagwaving. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-08-2005, 09:52 AM	#22 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	seaver: read through the thread. sadly for your position, i have done far too much research on conservative media, conservative ideology--what i say is not an unreasonable assessment of the situation your politics tend to put you into. that said, please keep in mind that i write almost entirely about the logic of the position in general--none of it accounts for teh complexity of indivudal relations to that ideology. that said, there is a difference between the position i outline and taking potshots as you do. but whatever, it is of no real consequence. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-08-2005, 08:01 AM	#2 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Well, you leave the important stuff out like number of troops stationed in foreign countries, per capita spent on weapons stockpiling, and lowest percentage of taxes paid by the top 30% of the taxpaying populace. I believe we lead in all those categories.

03-08-2005, 08:15 AM	#4 (permalink)
frogza Registered User Location: Right Here	Americans in general think that knowing who won the latest "reality" show is more important than science, math or literacy, that is if we consider time spent as an indicator. The reason for our failing is that we lead the world only in leisure. As a society we are lazy. We spend millions of dollars a year looking for the easiest way to pass the time, television, movies etc. We have the ultimate "microwave mentality", if it takes longer than 45 seconds to achieve a goal it's just too much trouble. We will never be the top of anything worthwhile while sitting in a recliner with a remote in our hand.

03-08-2005, 08:17 AM	#5 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing many of those numbers. Now I realize that Cuba may very well have better educational system (for gradeschool), but how easy would it be to scew the numbers of infant deaths to make him look better? Because... not one actually GOES to those countries to investigate...

03-08-2005, 09:23 AM	#17 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	We don't take this country for granted. We just have high standards. We want to see American be the best country that we can make it and rankings like this don't help matters. Some of us see this nation waste money on way too much defense, unnecessary wars, and unfesable weapons alongside lopsided tax cuts that make the top 10% of americans pay a smaller percentage of their income than everyone else and then we look at the rankings like this... knowing we could make this place better if we just got our prorities straight as a society. We're not perfect, but those in control aren't even trying to move us towards the ideal.

03-08-2005, 09:40 AM	#19 (permalink)
DJ Happy Psycho	NCB, why do you think that the US is the greatest nation on earth? It's not a theory that I would subscribe to, but I would be interested to hear why you do.

03-08-2005, 09:59 AM	#24 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	And it's a long walk from Central America as well.

03-08-2005, 10:55 AM	#25 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	I know it's naive, but wouldn't it be more interesting to discuss the individual items and possible solutions? We seem to fall into the polarized horse race too easily. For myself, the first half page hit home. One family member questions the moon missions, another worries that microwaves will leave her food radioactive, and she graduated in the top 10% of her university class. (granted, 20yrs ago) A niece fell into a group of friends who call any attempts to learn "sad", and in so doing she went from a stunningly smart 10yr old with a wall of books to a 15 yr old who barely passes classes, lives for her next "distraction" (movies, CD's, TV show), has had numerous bouts of VD, and says it's "no different from TV" to manipulate her parents against each other to get what she wants. Discouraging stuff. Anyone else have red flags in their family?

03-08-2005, 12:06 PM	#28 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	retsuki03 you can complain about the author's commie conclusions all you want... it doesn't change the fact that the statistics are valid. That said, I can't believe you actually play that old saw... Just brand him a commie... that's all you need to discredit anyone. What, are you living in 1955? It is a proven fact that countries with extensive social programs have much better educated,healthier and productive citizens (Canada, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, etc.). Yes, the taxes are higher but it is frequently seen as a good thing by those who live there. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-08-2005, 12:30 PM	#30 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Not sure what the stats are in the US but in Sweden about 12% of the population were born abroad and about one fifth of the population are immigrants or children of immigrants... GDP is a lousy way of measuring economic wealth... For example, dropping bombs is a plus for traditional GDP whereas health and wellness of nation are expenses. All depends on how you look at things. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-08-2005, 12:45 PM	#33 (permalink)
alansmithee Junkie	I would wager that many of the things that the above article points out as lacking in America (at least dealing with education and science) were never things that America was top, or near the top in. Remember, there was a large period of time where approximately 15% of the national population was barred from decent schooling. Even as time progressed education was not shown to be a priority for minorities. And on top of that, currently we have a large, mainly uneducated immigrant population. Much of the EU has very strict immigration policies, and don't deal with the same problems as the US. America's "greatness" has never come from it's masses. America has been, and continues to be, great because it excels in most (if not all) areas. Even though the average American might have less scientific knowledge than the average European, America still leads in scientific development. Even if the average state of health is lower, America still has the best medical facilities. And America's GDP is still tops in the world. I think it comes down to what metric you want to use to measure greatness. If you think greatness is measured by the state that the majority of the population is in, then America will lag behind the EU. But if you think that greatness is measured by having access to the best the world has to offer, then the EU would be behind. It's all a matter of what you define as great.

03-08-2005, 01:33 PM	#36 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I have no "love" for my country. I don't believe anyone should have something as irrational as an emotional commitment to the place they live. I believe one should have a rational understanding of your relationship to your nation and a the people with whom you share a social contract. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke