Do Religious Right's Beliefs Pose Threat to U.S.?

[host]

Here we go, folks. Unless you live in the south or
midwest, you may not be aware how accurate this
story is. Huge deluded and intolerant population.

Do you believe it ? Can you defend it ? If not,
is it harmful to the rest of us,
and to the world's muslims? Do LaHaye and the
rest of the Christian Right's mullahs influence
Bush signifigantly and negatively. How can we
resist and minimize the potential for damage?

<a href="http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar%2FLayout%2FArticle_Type1&c=Article&cid=1107989413916">Rapture awaits in the Florida Panhandle - TOM HARPUR</a>
......At first impression, the religious scene in this Bible Belt terrain is upbeat, vigorous, prospering in numbers, properties, and outspoken leadership. There is an agenda both spiritual and political as well as the people and money to make it happen. But, when you pay close attention to the message being driven home by every possible technical medium and skill, you meet some deeply disturbing, even frightening realities.

Let me illustrate by describing an all-day Saturday conference at one of the largest Protestant churches I have ever been in, The Village Baptist Church in Destin, Fla. The facilities there are gleaming, spacious, comfortable.

The theme of the day was Left Behind: A Conference on Biblical Prophecy about End Times, and it featured three of the leading voices in the U.S religious right today: Tim LaHaye, Gary Frazier, and Ed Hindson.

LaHaye was one of the leaders included in Time magazine's Jan.31 story on evangelicals most influential in the presidency of George W.Bush. He appeared, for that reason, a few nights ago along with three other prominent evangelicals on Larry King Live.

LaHaye has written about 50 non-fiction books and is particularly noteworthy because of his multi-million dollar Left Behind series of novels dealing with end-of-the-world themes.

Following the "Rapture" — the supposed moment when Jesus Christ will suddenly appear and all the saved will be "caught up to meet him in the air" — leaving the rest of Earth's billions to plague, pestilence, famine and war, there will be seven years of the "Tribulation."

How the Christian "God of love" treats those "left behind" makes for lurid reading indeed.

To sum up the essence of the three speaker's messages all that long Saturday, I have never heard so much venom and dangerous ignorance spouted before an utterly unquestioning, otherwise normal-looking crowd in my life. For the $25 fee, the 800 devotees certainly got a plateful.

There were stunning statements about humans having been only 6,000 years on Earth and other denials of contemporary geology and biology. And we learned that the Rapture, which could happen any second now, but certainly within the next 40 years, will instantly sweep all the "saved" Americans (perhaps one-half the population) to heaven, leaving the United States as "a Third World country" with the European Union becoming the revived Roman Empire.

But these fantasies were harmless compared with the hatred against Islam that followed. Here are some direct quotes: "Islam is an intolerant religion — and it's clear whose side we should be on in the Middle East." Applause greeted these words: "Allah and Jehovah are not the same God ... Islam is a Satanic religion ...We will never be able to understand their (Muslim) mentality ... They're going to attack Israel for certain. ..."

Gary Frazier shouted at the top of his lungs: "Wake up! Wake up!" And roughly 800 heads nodded approval as he added that the left-wing, anti-Israel media — "for example, CNN" — will never tell the world the truth about Islam. According to these three and the millions of Americans they lead, Muslims intend ultimately "to impose their religion on us all."

The idea of peace in the Middle East was denounced — specially any accord granting any land whatever to the Palestinians.

The two-state concept is unacceptable to American Christians, they argued, because "God gave that land to the Jews through Abraham" long ago. If the Palestinians want a state they must go to Jordan or elsewhere.

A terrible, final war in the region is inevitable.

Frazier, Hindson and LaHaye all teach at Rev. Jerry Falwell's Liberty University. They have the ear of the President of the world's sole superpower.

<a href="http://www.religionandsocialpolicy.org/news/article.cfm?id=2331">Evangelicals in America: digest of stories from the February 7th edition of Time magazine</a>

Publisher: Time magazine

General News Time Magazine February 7, 2005

...............What do they think Bush owes them? His campaign barely had time to sweep up the confetti last Nov. 3 before the victorious President got a congratulatory bouquet of praise, threats, warnings and demands. "In your re-election, God has graciously granted America--though she doesn't deserve it--a reprieve from the agenda of paganism," wrote Bob Jones III, president of the namesake South Carolina university that his grandfather founded to foster "Christ-like" character. "Don't equivocate. Put your agenda on the front burner and let it boil. You owe the liberals nothing." But if Jones saw the victory as an opportunity to be seized, others were preaching the biblical virtues of patience and caution. "Can we handle success and increased influence with grace and prudence?" Watergate conspirator turned prison evangelist Chuck Colson wrote in a column. "Sad to say, the church has managed to shoot itself in the foot almost every time it has achieved power in society. So what we need right now is a bracing dose of humility."

Having helped wage a presidential campaign over big issues like a constitutional amendment outlawing gay marriage, conservative Christians are not likely to be content winning skirmishes like the one that newly installed Education Secretary Margaret Spellings fought last week against the cartoon character Buster, famous for being Arthur's best friend. She objected to one episode that featured Buster visiting a real-life lesbian couple in Vermont. After her warning about the dangers of exposing young viewers to "the lifestyles portrayed in the episode," PBS decided not to distribute the show to its 350 publicly financed stations.................

<a href="http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/105/11.0.html">Time's 'Most Influential Evangelicals'</a>
The faces of the movement include Catholics, a Pentecostal who questions Trinitarianism, and a "new kind of Christian." Are we really that broad?
Compiled by Ted Olsen | posted 01/31/2005 1:45 p.m.

The first shall be photographed for Time, and the last shall blog about it
Lists of "most powerful," "most influential," best, or other superlatives always have some ostensibly high goal. Time magazine doesn't say why it published a cover story on "the 25 most influential evangelicals in America," but the idea seems to be to communicate to the country that Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell aren't really the faces of the movement. This is a group that's broader than you think.

The introduction is delightfully sweet: "American evangelicalism seems to defy unity, let alone hierarchy. Yet its members share basic commitments. Time's list focuses on those whose influence is on the rise or who have carved out a singular role."

But really, the de facto purpose of lists like this is to get people talking, to develop some kind of buzz, to spur some kind of debate. And so it has begun.

Here's the list: Howard & Roberta Ahmanson, David Barton, Doug Coe, Chuck Colson, Luis Cortès, James Dobson, Stuart Epperson, Michael Gerson, Billy & Franklin Graham, Ted Haggard, Bill Hybels, T.D. Jakes, Diane Knippers, Tim & Beverly LaHaye, Richard Land, Brian McLaren, Joyce Meyer, Richard John Neuhaus, Mark Noll, J.I. Packer, Rick Santorum, Jay Sekulow, Stephen Strang, Rick Warren, and Ralph Winter.

[tecoyah]

I once heard a quote.....from which author I do not remember, but it rang very true in my mind:

" More people have lost their lives to religion, than to all forms of disease in recorded history"

I would not purposefully expose myself to Malaria.

[Daoust]

Call me any name in the book, but I actually firmly believe a lot of what was discussed at this conference. The author of this article is just as venomous in his hatred for and bias against Christianity, as he claims that the lectures were against everybody else.

The Bible is very clear on many of these issues:

Following the "Rapture" — the supposed moment when Jesus Christ will suddenly appear and all the saved will be "caught up to meet him in the air" — leaving the rest of Earth's billions to plague, pestilence, famine and war, there will be seven years of the "Tribulation."

It's based on Revelation, and other NT books. The imminent return of Jesus Christ will of course be met with skepticism, (veiled fear) by those who hold no stock in it.


How the Christian "God of love" treats those "left behind" makes for lurid reading indeed.

God is also a just, fair God. "Whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth." The whole "God is love" thing is only one side. It's the side that mainline denominational churches have been preaching for years in an attempt to make religion 'user friendly' again. Those churches have just chosen to omit the parts about God's judgment against sinners because it would not draw the crowds like a good 'feel good' message would.

To sum up the essence of the three speaker's messages all that long Saturday, I have never heard so much venom and dangerous ignorance spouted before an utterly unquestioning, otherwise normal-looking crowd in my life.

Who's labelling who? Who's biased?

There were stunning statements about humans having been only 6,000 years on Earth and other denials of contemporary geology and biology. And we learned that the Rapture, which could happen any second now, but certainly within the next 40 years, will instantly sweep all the "saved" Americans (perhaps one-half the population) to heaven, leaving the United States as "a Third World country" with the European Union becoming the revived Roman Empire.

I firmly believe this myself, as the Bible, specifically the NT (which has been around for 2000 years) has been telling us about this all along.


Applause greeted these words: "Allah and Jehovah are not the same God ... Islam is a Satanic religion ...We will never be able to understand their (Muslim) mentality ... They're going to attack Israel for certain. ..."

This one is a little harder for the "tolerant" generation. But I firmly do believe that God and Allah are NOT the same God. I also believe that Israel will be involved in a major war against Muslim countries in the not too distant future. Politically it makes some sense, you have to admit.

The idea of peace in the Middle East was denounced — specially any accord granting any land whatever to the Palestinians.

The Bible (again, very old, yet verifiably accurate document) says that in the end times governments all over the world will preach one, unified message - peace. Everybody will be looking for peace. Isn't that exactly what everyone is looking for, even now??? Doesn't it make sense? Middle East, Africa, ???

A terrible, final war in the region is inevitable.

How can you not agree with this statement?

[alansmithee]

I actually think what's destroying the country is the secularists and liberals and their illogical policies and treasonous behavior. Here's proof:

Two Trial Lawyers In The White House – Again?

The last thing America’s workers and taxpayers need is another liberal lawyer couple in the White House attacking our U.S. Constitution and our freedoms.

After eight years of Yale Law School lawyers Bill and Hillary Clinton wrecking the American Dream, we now have even a worse lawyer team trying to get into the White House – John Kerry and John Edwards.

As a trial lawyer, Kerry has represented communist lobbyists from the People’s Republic of China. Kerry is comfortable with communists because he worked with North Vietnamese communists in Hanoi and in Paris while a Lieutenant in the Navy during the Vietnam War

Here's an article discussing a speech that former CO. gov. Dick Lamm gives talking about how to destroy America. Notice any similarities between this and the typical liberal platform?

Destruction of America
We all know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context his thoughts are particularly poignant.

Last week there was an immigration-overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to capacity by many of American's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor named Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book, "Mexifornia," explaining how immigration - both legal and illegal - was destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream.

Compare these troubling issues to the general kindness and generosity of the so-called religious right:

Tsunami Relief Donations from Southern Baptists Surpass $1.4 Million After One Week

Southern Baptists have responded with “characteristic compassion and lots of money” to the Dec. 26 earthquake and tsunami that has so far killed over 150,000 people across 12 countries in South Asia, a mission board of the Southern Baptist Convention reported Friday. Since the quake-tsunami ravaged Asia last week, donations have been streaming into the International Mission Board (IMB) from Southern Baptists around the nation. By Jan. 6, more than $1.4 million had been given.

Or this:

Christian Kindness Is 'Peace Initiative' in Nigeria
The buildings are no longer burning in Nigeria.


But last year in the city of Jos, dozens of people lost their lives in the marketplace as Muslims and Christians clashed. Into this chasm came CBN's Operation Blessing -- building a bridge of hope. It came through meeting the needs of a little boy named Aliu.


Eighteen months ago, Mohammed's wife, Hajira, gave birth to their son. But their joy was quickly mixed with sadness as they saw that Aliu had been born with a cleft lip.


Mohammed and Hajira are poor. Mohammed works hard at a shoe and sandal shop in the Jos marketplace. For his labor, Mohammed makes about $50 a month -- not enough to pay for corrective surgery for the son he loves.


But last year, even as the marketplace was burning, CBN Worldreach and Operation Blessing reached into this community with a gesture of love. They paid for doctors to repair Aliu's damaged lip - a surgery that would have cost Mohammed a year's salary.

I think the evidence is compelling that not only should people move away from dangerous secularism, but work to the same good as the so-called religious right.

[Locke7]

Well stated Daoust. I've read all 12 of the Left Behind series, and found them to be an exciting, fascinating look in to what Christians call the end times. While the stories are based on the NT book of Revelation, the writers do acknowledge that their books are works of fiction. When the writer of that article Tom Harpur writes "How the Christian "God of love" treats those "left behind" makes for lurid reading indeed," I would advise you to read the book of Revelation, before making silly assumptions that Tim LaHaye was trying to write a literal interpretation of scripture...

Also, you're going to need a little faith...

[Manx]

Originally Posted by Daoust

To sum up the essence of the three speaker's messages all that long Saturday, I have never heard so much venom and dangerous ignorance spouted before an utterly unquestioning, otherwise normal-looking crowd in my life.

Who's labelling who? Who's biased?

If someone stands in front of me and calls me a name, is it not accurate for me to state that the person has just called me a name? Is that my intolerance?

I don't think so.

Applause greeted these words: "Allah and Jehovah are not the same God ... Islam is a Satanic religion ...We will never be able to understand their (Muslim) mentality ... They're going to attack Israel for certain. ..."

This one is a little harder for the "tolerant" generation. But I firmly do believe that God and Allah are NOT the same God. I also believe that Israel will be involved in a major war against Muslim countries in the not too distant future. Politically it makes some sense, you have to admit.

You probably don't mean that it "makes sense" politically. You probably mean that there is some inevitability of it due to politics. It most certainly does not "make sense" by any measure.

The Bible (again, very old, yet verifiably accurate document) says that in the end times governments all over the world will preach one, unified message - peace.

The Bible is not a "verifiably accurate" document.

Everybody will be looking for peace.

A terrible, final war in the region is inevitable.

How can you not agree with this statement?

If everybody is looking for peace why is a "final war" inevitable? Though I suppose if the people in charge of deciding to go to war are also the people that believe it is inevitable, there is certainly a far greater chance that it will take place.

[Manx]

Originally Posted by Locke7

Also, you're going to need a little faith...

If the Final Days is what I am supposed to have faith in, I would much rather have faith in some form of Utopia. It's all faith anyway, might as well have faith that everyone has a good experience instead of just those who share my faith. Since faith is make believe, I don't see the purpose in making it exclusionary.

[martinguerre]

fortunatly, i think you over state the influence of LeHay and this crowd on Bush.

Look at the Bob Jones III article again...it's him threatening because he's not getting the payback he wants. Social Security could not matter less to these folks, but that's what Bush wants to do. Evangelic for the election, realist for the second term.

but yes...i tend to agree that pre-millenial dispensationalism (the fancy ass title for what these folks are preaching about rapture) is a dangerous theology. it is dismissed by most of the mainlines, and is a very recent novelty as far as theologies go.

[boatin]

40 years, eh? Does anyone want to give a date by which we can officially call the End of Days thing a load of hooey?

What about 2050? No rapture by then, can we say it's all wrong? What about 2100?

I'll sure be one of the first to say I was wrong if the rapture happens, and deal with the consequences of my choices. Anyone on the 'other' side willing to do the same? I recognize that the rapture would be obvious and clear, and the no rapture isn't so clear.

But surely there is a date where it will be clear?

[roachboy]

things like "the rapture" and other such end o the world scenarios are usually best kept vague:
otherwise, you end up with cadres of folk sitting in lawn chairs in a back yard somewhere, outfitted with helmets and mai tais, waiting for the world to end.
then it doesnt, and then there are problems of continuing.
something of ones credibility goes away at that point.
why risk it?

as to the beliefs of the far right evangelical community posing a threat to the rest of us:
it is not obvious what kind of political correlates folk can build from the substance of christian beliefs to a politics. you could think about liberation theology as something of a rosy scenario--emphasizing the dignity of the poor, working to build base communities, generating sophisticated rereadings of gospels, st francis of assisi, etc. then you have the american protestant evangelical movement, and its nasty political expressions....
if the political agenda of these folk were to be adopted without revision or friction, they would indeed be a real danger, in the way that any theological rationale for fascism would be....but i dont think things are going to work out as they would hope. not that i have any faith in the bush administration, but i think that the evangleicals might find that they have been chumped by the karlrove machine, used to mobilize large numbers of folk in old school party machine style--now they want to be paid.

the rosy scenario is that as these folk and their lunatic politics surface, the chances of them expanding gets smaller and smaller--maybe that is the real reason they want to be paid now--this is as good as it will get for them.

they are a real enemy whose work should be opposed in the shorter run: in the longer run, nothing would be worse for them than to have to spell out what they really want.

[Yakk]

again, very old, yet verifiably accurate document

I disagree. PI is not 3.

[Superbelt]

Armageddonists have been preaching that the End of Days is within their own lifetime since the day Jesus died. Not one has been right yet.
There was a humongous shitstorm at the end of 666, 777, 999, and other dates that people were able to creatively add up to speciously mean things to them.

Good job by LeHaye of saying "within 40 years" He'll be dead by then and everyone will have forgotten anyway. Calculated so he can keep sowing seeds of fear and hate to those gullible enough to listen to him.

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by Daoust

Following the "Rapture" — the supposed moment when Jesus Christ will suddenly appear and all the saved will be "caught up to meet him in the air" — leaving the rest of Earth's billions to plague, pestilence, famine and war, there will be seven years of the "Tribulation."

It's based on Revelation, and other NT books. The imminent return of Jesus Christ will of course be met with skepticism, (veiled fear) by those who hold no stock in it.

Y'know, there was a homeless guy that used to hang out in the downtown area. He used to proclaim that he was Jesus Christ, and had returned. He got locked away in a mental hospital. Now...given that, I should imagine, Jesus Christ, being who he was and all, would come back as a homeless person, as opposed to..oh...the C.E.O of a major corporation, how so sure are we that we don't have "the savior" locked up in a padded room?

[irateplatypus]

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

how so sure are we that we don't have "the savior" locked up in a padded room?

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16

if it happens the way the bible appears to say it will... i don't think we'll have to worry about the triumphant Lamb of God working at the local 7-11.

even so, he did not come in the way scholars thought he would the first time... oh well.

[boatin]

I do recognize the helpfulness of a loosely scheduled rapture. I also recognize the 40 years will be after the authors are dead.

My question is for TFPers who believe this: is there a date by which you will say you are mistaken? Or are you too certain, and that certainty means a rolling deadline?

I really would like to understand...

[Daoust]

Originally Posted by boatin

My question is for TFPers who believe this: is there a date by which you will say you are mistaken? Or are you too certain, and that certainty means a rolling deadline?

I really would like to understand...

Do you mean will there come a time, after which Christians will give up believing in a Rapture?

No, but there will be a time, after all the Christians are raptured right before the worlds very eyes, that those left behind will make up excuses for what has happened, and they'll believe it. Hundreds of thousands of Christians will disappear into thin air in a 'blink of an eye', and all the world will witness it, and yet in a few short years everyone will totally forget it ever happened. It's called the great lie, brought forth by the anti-Christ, who of course you will not believe in if you don't believe the Bible.

[Superbelt]

The Book of Revelations is an acid trip as much as Whatsis names Book of Mormons is.

[Ace_O_Spades]

Originally Posted by Daoust

[I]I firmly believe this myself, as the Bible, specifically the NT (which has been around for 2000 years) has been telling us about this all along.

Wow, gotta love scientifically verifiable testimony.

I'm starting a new religion right now.

It states that the world was created by me 19 years ago upon my birth. You'd all better bow down to me or I'll take you all away in a fiery torment upon my death, wherein the world will be reduced to smouldering ashes and choking poison gas.

What's that? There's people in the world older than 19? No, you see, I created those people with pre-existing memories so they'd have the chance to be saved by me. The entire universe is only 19 years old, trust me. I'll even write a book about it.

All that starlight that's been travelling for hundreds of millions of years, I created that as well, already on its way here, so you all could see it.

Yep... 19 years old

It must be true though, because I said it and wrote it down.

[Manx]

Originally Posted by Daoust

Do you mean will there come a time, after which Christians will give up believing in a Rapture?

No, but there will be a time, after all the Christians are raptured right before the worlds very eyes, that those left behind will make up excuses for what has happened, and they'll believe it. Hundreds of thousands of Christians will disappear into thin air in a 'blink of an eye', and all the world will witness it, and yet in a few short years everyone will totally forget it ever happened. It's called the great lie, brought forth by the anti-Christ, who of course you will not believe in if you don't believe the Bible.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Why believe in that? It's so limiting and intentionally exclusionary.

Why not believe in joy happiness and peace for everyone, regardless of what they do or do not believe in? The only reason I can think of that you wouldn't want to believe in the all-inclusive rapture as opposed to the significantly exclusive rapture is because you want other people to do what you think is best instead of letting them live their lives as they feel is best.

I.E., it's simply a form of control. It has nothing to do with being "saved" or experiencing happiness or whatever. It has to do with threats and warnings to toe an arbitrary line. Faith allows you to do anything. That someone would use it to exclude millions of people is ultimately saddening, and I would say, anti-spiritual.

[Mojo_PeiPei]

As far as these people's stance on Muslims, it doesn't seem any different then the filth preached in Mosques around the world, let the crazies talk, hell I hope there is a holy war and they meet on the battle field and thin each others numbers a little.

Anyway Ace, how can that be, the world was created when I was born 20 years ago.

[stevo]

Originally Posted by Manx

If the Final Days is what I am supposed to have faith in, I would much rather have faith in some form of Utopia.

That's what heaven is. That is in part what faith is about, even if it is in the next life.

[Willravel]

Anyone who claims they know when the end times will come are not Christian. Specifically every Christian belief from Baptist to Catholic believs that Go the Father is the only one know knows when the end times will come. Speculation about the end times is about as ignorant as it comes.

Here we have a basic problem with a charesmatic radical gaining stock because he is a creative writer. He becomes politically powerful in the evangelical churches and people listen to the crap he spews. I've been telling people that religion isn't politics for years. This is a good reason for my claim.

Call me any name in the book, but I actually firmly believe a lot of what was discussed at this conference. The author of this article is just as venomous in his hatred for and bias against Christianity, as he claims that the lectures were against everybody else.

The Bible is very clear on many of these issues:

Following the "Rapture" — the supposed moment when Jesus Christ will suddenly appear and all the saved will be "caught up to meet him in the air" — leaving the rest of Earth's billions to plague, pestilence, famine and war, there will be seven years of the "Tribulation."

It's based on Revelation, and other NT books. The imminent return of Jesus Christ will of course be met with skepticism, (veiled fear) by those who hold no stock in it.

If it happens in the next 40 years, I suppose. Much of what they say, like the great war in the middle east is far from “written in the NT books”.

How can we be sure that this is litteral or figurative? Are the seven lanterns actually lanterns?

There is no way to say for sure that everyone will eb specifically tortured until Jesus returns one last time. What if they are simply left and the world goes on in it’s normal fashion? That’s possible.

This all comes down to how you want to use God’s word to control people. What this man is saying is “if you don’t become Christian in the next 40 years”, where did 40 years come from anyway?, “you will be tortured.” And then he accouses
the Muslims of trying to impose religion. Hahaha. Why is it hyp[ocracy comes up in religion so often?

How the Christian "God of love" treats those "left behind" makes for lurid reading indeed.

God is also a just, fair God. "Whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth." The whole "God is love" thing is only one side. It's the side that mainline denominational churches have been preaching for years in an attempt to make religion 'user friendly' again. Those churches have just chosen to omit the parts about God's judgment against sinners because it would not draw the crowds like a good 'feel good' message would.

So what they are preaching is wrong? Hmm. That’s interesting. Good job addressing the quote, though.

To sum up the essence of the three speaker's messages all that long Saturday, I have never heard so much venom and dangerous ignorance spouted before an utterly unquestioning, otherwise normal-looking crowd in my life.

Who's labelling who? Who's biased?

Manx did a good job on this one...moving on...

There were stunning statements about humans having been only 6,000 years on Earth and other denials of contemporary geology and biology. And we learned that the Rapture, which could happen any second now, but certainly within the next 40 years, will instantly sweep all the "saved" Americans (perhaps one-half the population) to heaven, leaving the United States as "a Third World country" with the European Union becoming the revived Roman Empire.

I firmly believe this myself, as the Bible, specifically the NT (which has been around for 2000 years) has been telling us about this all along.

When we read Revelation, we are reading something really unique. John was taken by God to see the end times. John , a man with the limited understanding of his time, was brough into whatever age Jessus returns in. The world now is a much different place than it was back then. The “Beast coming out of the Sea” could be an invading force from space a thousand years from now. The 144,000 could simply represent the 144,000 colonized planets by humans, long after war has ended and Islam and Christianity coexist peacefully.

Applause greeted these words: "Allah and Jehovah are not the same God ... Islam is a Satanic religion ...We will never be able to understand their (Muslim) mentality ... They're going to attack Israel for certain. ..."

This one is a little harder for the "tolerant" generation. But I firmly do believe that God and Allah are NOT the same God. I also believe that Israel will be involved in a major war against Muslim countries in the not too distant future. Politically it makes some sense, you have to admit.

What if Allah and God are the same God? No where in the bible does it specifically say that Islam is wrong, in actuallity, Islam and Christianity are based in the same religion. What if they are the same religion, simply divided the way all churches divide? The fact that these people dismiss this possibility is frightening. The fact that they put this fourth as fact and try go feed hatred of another religion is inexcusable.

The idea of peace in the Middle East was denounced — specially any accord granting any land whatever to the Palestinians.

The Bible (again, very old, yet verifiably accurate document) says that in the end times governments all over the world will preach one, unified message - peace. Everybody will be looking for peace. Isn't that exactly what everyone is looking for, even now??? Doesn't it make sense? Middle East, Africa, ???

Is America preaching peace? Is England? Is Russia? Is the Middle East? Is Africa? Who are you talking about that are “preaching peace”? Name the last time when there were no wars going on anywhere in the world.

A terrible, final war in the region is inevitable.

How can you not agree with this statement?

I gladly argue with this. As long as some other nations can stop interfering, I thinkl that peace is more than possible in the Middle East. As soon as the oil runs dry and people can learn to share one of the most important religious places in the world, we will see unparalleled peace.

[Locke7]

Originally Posted by Manx

I.E., it's simply a form of control. It has nothing to do with being "saved" or experiencing happiness or whatever. It has to do with threats and warnings to toe an arbitrary line. Faith allows you to do anything. That someone would use it to exclude millions of people is ultimately saddening, and I would say, anti-spiritual.

I 100% disagree with you. Faith is just a way you believe. I have never felt threatened, or warned to follow any rules. Because I have faith, I choose to make certain decisions in my life.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Locke7

I 100% disagree with you. Faith is just a way you believe. I have never felt threatened, or warned to follow any rules. Because I have faith, I choose to make certain decisions in my life.

What does "faith in God" have to do with hating Islam? What does faith in God have to do with granting land to the Palestinians? That is the part of faith that is a form of control. God does not try to control you, in fact He gives you free will. Men use God's holy message to their sinister and selfish ends. That is the control.

[Fourtyrulz]

People have been saying the end times will come in 40 years for thousands of years, and will be saying it for thousands more. About faith...faith is what you call opinion when its dressed up for church. Your faith in the Bible is no more correct or infallible than my belief in UFOs...and people call me crazy.

[Locke7]

Uh, will, I said nothing about hating islam/land to palistinians. I was responding to Manx. And your post wasn't there when I posted mine.

[Locke7]

Originally Posted by Fourtyrulz

faith is what you call opinion when its dressed up for church. Your faith in the Bible is no more correct or infallible than my belief in UFOs...and people call me crazy.

Well seeing as how you have been called crazy for believing in UFO's, then I guess you understand how I feel when people say things like "faith is what you call opinion when its dressed up for church."

[Fourtyrulz]

Originally Posted by Locke7

Well seeing as how you have been called crazy for believing in UFO's, then I guess you understand how I feel when people say things like "faith is what you call opinion when its dressed up for church."

Right...except I don't claim that anyone not beliving in UFOs is going to suffer eternal damnation. I don't try to tell "non-believers" that they are going to be left behind in a world full of pestilence and war and disease unless they spend the rest of their mortal lives preparing for a sunny cheery afterlife in a place in the clouds, walking side by side with a man who in some self righteous fling decided to create a universe out of dust full of people for the sole purpose of worshipping that which created them.

Something about that just seems so much more farfetched than believing that there is other life in the universe that has the capability of transgalatic travel, and that out of all the planets in the entire cosmos they decide to visit this one.

[Paq]

just a bit of personal stuff here.

i work with a lady that honestly believes rapture will happen within her lifetime (probabyl about another 40 yrs) and she lives just like that..doesn't care about the environment, the world, those heathen middle easterners, the heathens in china, the heathens everywhere..but she's out to save as many as she can.....

I honestly don't care what someone believes...as long as they dont' act on that belief in a way that is going to affect me/the world in some negative way....

[Manx]

Originally Posted by Locke7

I 100% disagree with you. Faith is just a way you believe. I have never felt threatened, or warned to follow any rules. Because I have faith, I choose to make certain decisions in my life.

I'm not sure what you disagree with in my post.

Faith is just a way you believe. Sure thing. So why would anyone have faith that excludes others from happiness unless they change to fit some predefined rules? If you're going to have faith in some great thing, there is no reason to limit that great thing, either in scope of greatness or in scope of who has access to the greatness. For example, the faith being described in this thread is supremely great - there are no undesireable aspects to post-Rapture experience: there are no taxes, there is no fear, there is no death. But the faith described in this thread is very specifically limited to who will experience it. Why? There is no point in limiting your faith.

The only explanation I can come up with is that this "faith" is nothing more than control. Maybe you can provide a different explanation that makes more sense.

[boatin]

Originally Posted by Daoust

Do you mean will there come a time, after which Christians will give up believing in a Rapture?

No, but there will be a time, after all the Christians are raptured right before the worlds very eyes, that those left behind will make up excuses for what has happened, and they'll believe it. Hundreds of thousands of Christians will disappear into thin air in a 'blink of an eye', and all the world will witness it, and yet in a few short years everyone will totally forget it ever happened. It's called the great lie, brought forth by the anti-Christ, who of course you will not believe in if you don't believe the Bible.

So if you die in 80-100 years (medical science being what it is), and there hasn't been a rapture, you are still confident that it's coming later?

What about all those that are certain it will happen within 40 years? Are you willing to accept that they might be wrong, and it will be later?

Is it fair to assume that you agree that having a moving deadline makes it easier to believe? Does that pose any issues for you? Is there ANY date by which you'd agree that this was all one big mistake? 2200? 2500?

Again, just curious how it works.

[flstf]

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Y'know, there was a homeless guy that used to hang out in the downtown area. He used to proclaim that he was Jesus Christ, and had returned. He got locked away in a mental hospital. Now...given that, I should imagine, Jesus Christ, being who he was and all, would come back as a homeless person, as opposed to..oh...the C.E.O of a major corporation, how so sure are we that we don't have "the savior" locked up in a padded room?

What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
Joan Osborne - One of Us - 1995

[Fourtyrulz]

Originally Posted by Manx

The only explanation I can come up with is that this "faith" is nothing more than control. Maybe you can provide a different explanation that makes more sense.

Manx, you're absolutely right about faith in an afterlife being nothing more than a means of control. Promise people back in the middle ages subservience to the rule of the church in exchange for an eternal paradise, who wouldn't accept it? Afterall, no one has come back to life crying "BULLSHIT!" have they?

How many people cried Armageddon before the 2000 new year?
How many people cried Rapture before the 1000 new year?
How many civilizations have cried Eschaton during their time?
How many were right? None, they are either living a lie or blissfully dead.

Do you honestly think that Jesus invented the end times myth?

[go-bots]

the whole rapture thing was made up by some preacher guy in the 1860's. i've read the new testament and i haven't found any verifiable evidence of a rapture. plus all the prophecies are vague as nostradomouses. the new testament is a series of letters written to different churches around the arab and medateranian areas. revelations was about the roman empire at the time of the author. I don't believe it was about our time.
and on the subject of the the world being 6000 years old' its just not true. all scientific evidence points to the contrary. Example: it takes roughly 8 min. for light from the sun to reach the earth,so when you see the sun in the sky you are really looking at its
after image. alot of the stars in the sky are dead and gone but since light travels at a certain speed it may take 6 billion years for light from a star to reach earth and by the time it gets here the star itself is long gone. also through carbon dating we can tell how old somthing is. that how we know that man has been on earth for roughly 100,000 yeArs(modern man, are current form, 30,000 years) and not to mention all the others that came before us: cromag,homo erectus, australopithicus,neanderthal
im not trying to say christianity is wrong or anything but i think recently people have hijacked the religion and are trying mold it to fit their own beliefs!

i believe its good to have people from all walks of life in government, that way we get the broadest range of ideas on the table. thats what makes our country so fukin awesome. but when people are extremely militant and close minded it just fuks shit up for the rest of us.

[Mojo_PeiPei]

Wasn't Nostradamous fairly legit? I seem to remember something about twin fires at 50 degrees in the sky... (unless that was made up)

But me being religious, I hate end time prophecies and rapture and any other type of bullshit. Growing up my nutjob grandma would tell me some freaky shit like the three days and three nights of darkness, it sucked being so fearful of something so overwhelming and unconcievable, next person that tells me about end times get's a donkey punch regardless of political affiliation.

[tecoyah]

Nostradamus currently runs about a 17% accuracy rate in his collected works.


Oh...and by the way Mojo..............................End Times


*tecoyah ducks the donkey punch*

[daswig]

Originally Posted by host

Here we go, folks. Unless you live in the south or
midwest, you may not be aware how accurate this
story is. Huge deluded and intolerant population.

Do you believe it ? Can you defend it ? If not,
is it harmful to the rest of us,
and to the world's muslims? Do LaHaye and the
rest of the Christian Right's mullahs influence
Bush signifigantly and negatively. How can we
resist and minimize the potential for damage?

DAMN THOSE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! THEY SHOULD BE BEATEN TO DEATH AFTER REPENTING THEIR HERESIES!!!

oh, wait...

/amused by the so-called "liberals" screaming we have to stop people from exercising their constitutionally protected rights....

[daswig]

Originally Posted by roachboy

things like "the rapture" and other such end o the world scenarios are usually best kept vague:
otherwise, you end up with cadres of folk sitting in lawn chairs in a back yard somewhere, outfitted with helmets and mai tais, waiting for the world to end.

I am EAGERLY waiting for the Rapture to come. When it does, I'm gonna have a bitchin' set of "new to me" wheels!!! Hey, they'll be in heaven, so they can't say "he stole it!!!", can they?

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by daswig

DAMN THOSE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! THEY SHOULD BE BEATEN TO DEATH AFTER REPENTING THEIR HERESIES!!!

oh, wait...

/amused by the so-called "liberals" screaming we have to stop people from exercising their constitutionally protected rights....

Hey, we get to point out what we see are hypocracies just like you do. Claiming they represent God, the turning around and damning Islam as the religion of the devil = hypocracy. Saying that God is coming in the next 40 years = lunacy.

[host]

Is this alternative interpretation of the Book of Revelation worthy of further consideration; why or why not ?

Would replacing the current predominant interpretation of
the Book of Revelation, and it's emphasis on a belief in imminent rapture of "saved" Christians, with this, have any
impact on the politics in the U.S. and the political ambitions of the Christian right?

<a href="http://www.knoxseminary.org/Prospective/Faculty/FacultyForum/JohnRevelationProject/#f2">http://www.knoxseminary.org/Prospective/Faculty/FacultyForum/JohnRevelationProject/#f2</a>
It is instructive that Martin Luther questioned the canonicity of Revelation, lamenting that a "Revelation" should reveal; and John Calvin, who commented on every other book of the Bible, glaringly omitted commentary on the Apocalypse. The children of the Reformers have fared little better.1 And it is time to ask why?

The answer to this question, we believe, is suggested once we recognize the genre of Revelation as classically understood.2 The literary pattern of a trajectory leading from darkness to light, from a damsel's despair to a hero's victory celebrated at last by a royal wedding procession (komos), is comedy.3

Now, perhaps, we can understand the failure of the Reformed church to address Revelation in any adequate fashion. It is due to our history. Perhaps we must also confess it is due to our sin. For it was our Puritan forebears who closed down the Elizabethan theater, fearing the nature of the theatre to explore the comedic imagination, which was suspected (especially in Shakespeare!) of undermining good morals.4

Consequently, as a community, we Reformed folk have been skeptical of the poetic imagination. We have unknowingly but nonetheless actually shut down one of the most fundamental gestures of the soul in so doing. And we have lost the splendor of the mundus imaginalis, the wonderment and sheer joy of the soul that is our true entrée into the Apocalypse, John's glorious vision of the beauty of the Son of Man.

The following papers from the Faculty Forum represent the ongoing project of Knox Seminary to articulate an understanding of Revelation through a lectionary reading of the Apocalypse and the Fourth Gospel and by an awareness of the overwhelmingly typological character of Johannine literature. We invite the participation of our students and the Christian community at large as we undertake this exciting study!

<a href="http://www.knoxseminary.org/Prospective/Faculty/FacultyForum/JohnRevelationProject/Part2.html">http://www.knoxseminary.org/Prospective/Faculty/FacultyForum/JohnRevelationProject/Part2.html</a>

<b>On the Incompleteness of the Gospel of John: A Clue to John's Revelation?</b>

Thematic issues that appear to suggest the incompleteness of the Fourth Gospel are likewise often left unattended. One of the most evident themes of the Gospel of John is the presentation of an Adamic typology of Jesus. John opens his Gospel as a New Genesis, with an account of creation "in the beginning," stylized after Moses' account of the first Adam. God the Word creates the world, John writes. Light shines into darkness. Then the Word is made man (John 1:14): a new Adam. The implication of John's typology is that once the Word becomes authentic man, it is not good that He should be alone (cf. Gen 2:18). There must be a "bride" for Christ. The evangelist makes this explicit when he introduces John the Baptist as a "friend of the Bridegroom" (John 3:29).

So Jesus must have a bride. The evangelist identifies Jesus as the Bridegroom, but where in his Gospel does he describe the bride of the One the Baptist called the "Lamb of God"? Where does he tell us of the wedding of the Son of Man? Christian, and especially Pauline, theology makes the identity of the bride of the Lord quite clear, but reading John's Gospel within the four corners of the text does not. Is the Fourth Gospel gesturing toward something else? something external, perhaps, to itself? 4

The only wedding described in the Fourth Gospel is not the wedding of the Lamb; rather, it is the wedding at Cana to which Jesus is only an invited guest. In the context of the shortage of wine at the wedding of a friend, Jesus' mother appears to ask Him to supply the wine. But the wine service is the responsibility of the bridegroom, according to the wedding steward (John 2:10). It is not His hour, Jesus says (John 2:2-4). Nonetheless Jesus supplies the wine for His friend, and the steward complains to the bridegroom that he has violated the protocol of serving the better wine first and the worse wine afterwards, after the guests have drunk (John 2:9-10). Why does John report the consternation of the wedding steward? Is the point of the evangelist simply that Jesus made the better wine? Is the significance of the steward's comment exhausted in the suggestion that the wine of Jesus' table will be sweet? Or is the account of the wedding at Cana gesturing toward some other wedding. Is there an anticipation of a wedding where Jesus will be the Bridegroom? But when is this wedding? And when the hour of His wedding does come, will Jesus respect the customary protocol, serving the better wine first and afterward the worse wine, after His guests have drunk? 5

In short, John's Gospel opens with a reflection upon "the beginning" of all creation. But where is the ending that makes the Gospel whole? The ending of the Gospel attempts to answer a rumor that went out in the early Christian community about the time and circumstance of John's death (John 21:18-25). Is this false report the conclusion John intended for his evangelistic enterprise, an ending deemed worthy to be juxtaposed to the "in the beginning" of John 1:1?6


<a href="http://www.knoxseminary.org/Prospective/Faculty/FacultyForum/JohnRevelationProject/Part4.html">http://www.knoxseminary.org/Prospective/Faculty/FacultyForum/JohnRevelationProject/Part4.html</a>

The Great Reversal:
The Son is lifted up (John 12:28-31)
Satan is cast down (Revelation 12:9-10)

The first crosspiece combines the opening chapters of the Gospel and the closing chapters of the Revelation to tell the story of the Son of Man as a Heavenly Bridegroom who leaves His Father's house to dwell among men in search of a bride. He finds her in a wilderness and woos her to Himself, at last taking her to a pleasant garden in the city of God. The Gospel presents the Bridegroom; the Revelation introduces the bride.

This crosspiece is rich with wedding imagery. At the opening of the Gospel, Jesus and His disciples are invited to a wedding in Cana. At the close of Revelation, blessing is pronounced on all who are invited to the wedding of the Lamb. At the opening of the Gospel, John the Baptist rejoices to hear the voice of the Bridegroom (Jesus) who has the bride (the church). At the close of Revelation, Babylon is judged when the voice of the Bridegroom and bride is no longer heard. Jesus makes wine in both settings. First, He serves the good wine of the Gospel at Cana. Then in Revelation, when the harlot and her people are drunk, He serves the wine of the wrath of God (cf. John 2:10). The good wine of the Gospel is served before the wine of fierce wrath in the Revelation.

The second crosspiece joins the opening of Revelation with the close of John. It tells of the heroic Son of God, who comes from heaven as a Warrior King to lay hold of His Kingdom by vanquishing the Dragon. He rides forth upon a white horse to conquer His enemies with the sword of His mouth. Those who follow Him need not fear the warfare, for their King is the Lord of Life. Even if they should lose their lives in martyrdom, they will be raised to new life just like their conquering King, and will dwell forever with Him in the New Jerusalem, where there will be no more pain, sorrow, or tears.

The pivot of both the consecutive and the chiastic structure (John 12; Rev 12), which is the thematic center of the story told by the two books, tells of the great reversal that takes place as the Son is lifted up and Satan is cast down. John 12:28-31 and Revelation 12:9-10 are anchored by word combinations that occur nowhere else in either book. These passages constitute the literary axis of the two Johannine books. (See the consecutive chart.) Both passages concern the announcement of Christ's kingdom. In John 12, Jesus rides into Jerusalem upon a donkey. The crowds proclaim Him "King of Israel" and the Pharisees worry that "the world has gone after Him" (John 12:13,15,19). The Revelation passage that corresponds to the Triumphal Entry of the Gospel opens with the announcement that "the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign forever and ever" (Rev 11:15; cf. Rev 12:10). In John 12:32, the Son is lifted up. The matching declaration of Revelation 12:9 is that the Dragon is cast down to earth. As noted on the chart, both John and Revelation speak of Satan being cast out of heaven.