Charlatan

I think you are missing the point. Hatred... hardly. These people seem to love America. They *want* America to be number one and can't understand why it isn't. They feel that the current system prevents it from being number one. They look at how other nations achieve greatness and think... Why can't we have that too?

It is one thing to go about saying America is great. It is another to try and make it great.

I live in Canada and think we have it much better than most Americans. We pay higher taxes but the trade off seems worth it. As a result, Canada is near the top of many lists of the best place to live in the world.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Superbelt

Not talking Cambodia or North Korea or Somalia

Talking Mexico, Costa Rica, Argentina and Romania.

NCB

I wish you were correct. However, their actions and rhetoric suggests otherwise. Does that mean all of them? No, of course not. Like I've said before, I hope they don't love their children like they love their country.

I disagree. They don't want America to be #1, they want America to become part of a global community where social justice (communism) and tolerance (liberalism) prevail. They have no desire for America to stand on its own on top of the world.

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roachboy

what on earth does this "be number 1" thing mean?
i have no idea what you are talking about, ncb....

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Manx

It's interesting how two terms, "social justice" (of which the inverse would seemingly be "social injustice") and "tolerance" (of which the inverse is "intolerance") can be masked by two other terms (communism and liberalism) in order to present them in a negative light.

If having America stand at the top of the world produces social injustice and intolerance throughout the world - America needs to be prevented from standing at the top of the world.

And more to the point: I couldn't care less where America stands. Vastly more important than rank is the fight against social injustice and intolerance.

NCB

Marx and Lenin couldn't have said it better.

So do you subscribe to their versions of social justice and tolerance?

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Manx

I have no idea what your perceptions of their versions of social justice and tolerance are, so that's simply not a question I could answer.

If you find that Marx and Lenin's versions of those terms are invalid, you should reconsider your decision to use their versions of those terms when you use those terms. Otherwise you are demonstrating your support for social injustice and intolerance.

Is that what you truly intend?

NCB

You're ducking the question, ManX. What's your vision of social justice and tolerance?

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Charlatan

This just backs up what Manx was saying:

Are you advocating the negative? Can you seriously state that you would support Social Injustice and Intolerance? I don't think so.

That said, pulling Marx and Lenin into this is besides the point. Would it make you feel better if we all started pulling Hitler and Mussolini into this? It lessens the discussion to pointlessness...

No one here has suggested a Dictaorship of the Proletariat or any such nonsense. I would think those on the left of this discussion would argue that the reforms they seek can all be found within the Captialist Democracy we live in.

When it really comes down to it the two etremes here are not all that far off. It is a matter of degrees. One sees raising the quality of life for all as a good thing... The other side would say quality of life is *only* the inidividual's responsibility and let the chips fall where they may.

There are positives and negatives to both position and the answer is to be found somewhere in the middle.

I've said it before... I think a little socialism is a good thing for all. There is a happy medium between the respective nightmares of Lassiez-Fair Free Market system and a Communist Dictatorship.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

roachboy

i would agree with charalatan and manx for the most part.

and i too am perplexed by anyone actually opposing the notion of social or economic fairness in principle.

historically speaking, more democratic socialist type initiatives have made adjustments in the brutality of markets, their constant generation of social instability. without some kind of counterforce, capitalism would destory any trace of freedom. these initiaves have not been undertaken out of any great kindness on the part of the holders of capital and/or power: they have been forced to take them because the survival of the system was at stake in adapting to the social consequences of capitalism. there really is no argument against this. not in historical terms.


the way in which you invoked marx and lenin, ncb, makes it pretty clear that you have no idea what you are talking about.
try again.
maybe stick with texts you have actually read.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

NCB

Charltan, noody here (especillay me) is advocating in justice and intolerance. It just seems hypocritical to me that the same people who claim to be advacning tolerance are the most intolerant people when it comes to religion (Judeo-Christian religion that is).

My point is that Lenin and Marx used the same rhetoric to advance their agenda. And look what happened. 100 million people were killed.

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Charlatan

Most of the intollerance towards religious types is a direct reaction to particular types of intolerance coming out of certain religious types. The belief that a secular society should not be dictated to by a religious group is going to create friction... It should be noted that these same people would likely fight tooth and nail for the freedom of others to practice their religion (just not to prothelityze it).

As for Lenin and Marx resulting in 100 million killed... the same can be said of Capitalism... In the early days of the Industrial revolution to today there have been millions of people (globally speaking) that have been exploited and/or killed due to lack of regulations... It doesn't have to happen at the end of a gun or in gulag to make it count.

Again, the answer to this lies somewhere in the middle ground between the two extremes.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

NCB

Stalin intentionally starved between 20-30 million Ukranians on his own. A sweatshop owner does not intentionally kill anyone.

AI agree. However, putting communism and capitalism on the same moral plane is insulting.

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roachboy

that is idiotic.

most of marx's work starts from the problem of alienation--which is a central feature in capitalist modes of production. the political dimension derives from trying to imagine what the overcoming of alienation would look like. and he never really spelled out what exactly he envisioned. but it is clear if you actually read marx that it follows that socialism for him would probably look more like a direct democracy than anything you have in mind.

there is a second dimension to marx's work that is much more problematic--that capitalism unfolded across objective contradictions--from which followed lenin's later claim that the revolutionary vanguard knew better than anyone else what these were and what actions they required at any given time. there is alot more that could be said here, but i'll leave it for now.

the question of organization is noted in marx but somewhat underdeveloped. engels was more interested in it, in part as a function of his understanding of revolution as a variant of civil war. which entailed a military-type organization. top-down command structures. lenin simply extended this basic view into a strategy that worked in the context of russia 1917.

lenin's work was mostly concerned with tactical matters--apart from state and revolution and a few other texts--the conflict between leninist type organization and anything like a direct democratic type of system was made perfectly clear with the suppression of the krorstadt rebellion and the gutting of any meaningful content of the notion of the soviets. those who are more sympathetic to lenin aften argue that this represents a kind of turn in his position forced onto him by the civil war. i do not buy that--i think centralized, military-style hierarchies are built into the very center of lenin's organizational theory.

there are many many other problems with your take on these people.
the short version of them is that you simply do not know what you are talking about, ncb.
it would be better for you to change tack.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Manx

Out of the two of us, I'm not the one who used those terms to describe my impression of why some people posting in this thread hate America.

I'll say it again: if you are not advocating social injustice and intolerance, you should rethink your use of their inverse descriptors as negatives.

roachboy

another straight historical point: there was a split in the international in the run-up to world war 1 between the revolutionary and reformist wings--that is between those who understood revolution as possible in the shorter run and those who understood it as a longer-term possibility--the latter became social democrats.

over the 20th century, these two positions grew further and further apart--this is all obvious if you actually look into the history of marxism and/or the workers movement.

the distinction had to do with whether it made sense to work within the existing order to make changes that benefited the primary victims of capitalist modes of activity--which were working people and the poor--but the focus was on those who worked for wages, who, in marx's terms sold their labor power.

among the results of social-democratic movements and the responses to them were institutions like collective bargaining, which was an important basis many many developments like the extension of consumer credit to working class people--which in turn forms the basis for the type of prosperity you saw in the period from world war 2 through the early 1970s. which in turn constitues a fundamental base for the type of society that you, ncb, seem to feel works along an entirely different basis.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

filtherton

Looks like some didn't read the first post...

I don't hate america. I hate the fact that many americans just assume that their country is the best gosh darn country in the whole wide world. I hate the fact that there are so many americans who throw a hissyfit at the notion of universal health care in a country where we pay the most yet end up 37th in overall health performance. I hate the fact that so many of my countrymen and women are so intellectually lazy that they are afraid to even entertain the notion that america isn't across the board the greatest nation ever in the entire universe.

Charlatan

In their pure forms (i.e. in theory) both systems have good and bad things about them... In practice both systems are pretty horrible. Granted Communism is right up there with any other dictatorship.

Captialism only succeeds as a system because it is flexible. It can absorb change and reform. It succeeds because of regulation. Unchecked Capitalism is just as souless as Stalin at his worst...

Child labour, indentured servitude, slavery are just samples of the glories of early Capitalism. The dark satanic mills of the industrial revolution are another... It is only with government interference (checks and balances) that Capitalism doesn't kill us all.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

pan6467

This is just sad.

These numbers should bring out our pride and want to make this country better and improve.

Instead, one side uses it to show how bad off we are and that there is no hope, the other side ignores the numbers or makes fun of them.

Goddamn people, this is my fucking country and the place my children will grow up in. maybe you don't fucking care about your children or what happens. Perhaps you are independantly wealthy and don't give a damn about anything but lower taxes. Perhaps, you feel the government is fucked up and you would rather see us fail then to find ways to be better.

I don't fucking care what it is. IT IS TIME TO FIX THE SYSTEM, BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN AND FUCKING GROW UP. PAY THE FUCKING TAXES AND STOP CRYING, WORK TO INCREASE PAYROLLS AND DEMAND THAT BENEFITS START BEING INCLUDED.

IT IS TIME TO TELL THE FUCKING HEALTHCARE COMPANIES TO FUCK OFF AND EITHER PROVIDE AFFORDABLE HEALTHCARE OR THE GOVERNMENT WILL STEP IN.

IT IS TIME TO REBUILD THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM AND SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT HOW BAD IT IS.

IT IS TIME TO FUCKING TIGHTEN OUR BELTS, AND AGREE THAT WE WANT A BETTER NATION AND WORK FOR ONE.

SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE PETTY DIFFERENCES AND THE FUCKING GREED AND JUST DO SOMETHING.

Me, I volunteer at the library and tutor adults to read, I work in Public service as an addictions counselor and I work my ass off to help people better themselves.

I may not get rich doing what I'm doing, but I don't give a damn. When my time comes I can look at myself in a mirror and say I helped my brothers and I tried to better people. I can face my God and say I did the best I could and affected people and my community positively.

I don't have to go to my God on my knees and say, I cried about taxes and I made millions while others starved and I gave money to charities that actually used 10% of it to help people. I don't have to go to my God and say I worshipped the dollar and I didn't give a damn about anyone else because I made mine. I don't have to face my God and tell him i didn't believe in fair healthcare for all, because I had it and those that didn't well..... they were too lazy to have it.

That's a fucked up way to live.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

Mods,

I appologize for the use of language and tone but I truly am tired of both sides crying and neither side trying to do anything to better things.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

NCB

And it's with goverment's directive that communism kills people.

__________________

Charlatan

I wouldn't dispute that...



The problem with any dictatorship is you have to find a way to deal with those who oppose you. The most efficent way of doing this is killing them.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

choskins

"Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005)."

That is absolute crap. 20%???? 1 in 5 people???? Come on!!!

__________________
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
- Sigmund Freud

filtherton

Are you disputing the stat, or are you frustrated at the scientific knowledge of the average american?

NCB

Makes fun?? No, it's called putting it in perspective


.

The disconnect between lower taxes and job creation is clear in this post right here

It's time for people to assume responsibilty of their own well being.


I agree. First steps are to get rid of the parasitic unions and abolish the Dept of Ed

So you want to raise taxes on other people, right? And oh, does tightening the belt include cutting redundant social programs? Didn't think so


Find me one person in this country that has starved due to the lack of the indivduals income or the lack of money in a govt program. Also, please keep in mind that's it's the evil rich people that pay the overwhelming majority of taxes that support the numerous govt programs that the Left seems to love.

__________________

NCB

BTW, pan I love your passion though I disagree with your politics. There's no reason for you to be ashmed about it.

__________________

tecoyah

While I too can admire such passion, It should be clear that this tone and language should be reserved for the rare situation where its impact is required. Not that we will act for this alone...... No big deal, but we need to be clear.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

fibber

Just on the subject of numbers, can I assume we're kind of high in other catagories?

Also which ones are percentage and which ones are raw numbers?
Am I expecting too much from an article obviously focusing on the negative?
i dunno.

On another note, I think that the larger your country gets, the harder any of those numbers are to rise in. I've always felt part of the diffictulty in running a country of the state's size, both in area and pop., is the size itself. That many people, means you always exclude a bigger and bigger group with every action, that much space means the cultural differences can only get bigger as those have so little cultural impact on each other, outside of the le-boob-tube of course.

-the fibba

pan6467

I'm sorry if it comes across as just the "rich" I am yelling at. I am saying it to all of us.

And yes, if there are redundant programs then cut them.

What I meant by tightening our belt was that WE ALL must make sacrifices if we are to better this country.

To pull the attitude "I pay far more in taxes than you do" is petty and yeah if you make a million and pay 1/2 then it is a lot. I understand but people making $30,000 and paying 1/4 are hit harder.

We had an article in the Plain dealer and several othe locals about how the state of Ohio will have to pay $10 million or something more into Medicaid to cover the feds prescription drug program.

All the feds are doing by cutting taxes now is passing the buck to the states and communities that cannot afford it. Esp. Ohio where the unemployment is high, tax base is shrinking because wages are and there is no relief in sight.

We need to all stop being selfish and think about the future and put the fucking greed and who pays what and whether or not it's fair behind us. In the 50's and 60's when we were #1 in everything our tax rates were multiple times higher than they are now. And while I am sure people complained we had the best country in the world. WE set the standards and the rest of the world tried to catch up to us.

I just think we can find a common ground and do what is best for everyone not just the individual. We need to share goals and stop bickering and crying and complaining and find ways to achieve our goals TOGETHER.

UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL.

We can make this country the greatest in the history of mankind again, but we better get our acts together and work beside each other and not against each other..... or we will be a country with nuclear bombs and massive military but noone smart enough to fix things or have money to teach anyone to fix things.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

choskins

I am disputing the stat. However, if it is true, then I am frustrated at the scientific knowledge ...

__________________
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
- Sigmund Freud

hannukah harry

sometimes the myth is better than the reality.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

RangerDick

That ain't no myth brother.

cyrnel

Choskins, no scientific measurements here, but I'm sorry to say the stat matches my experience. The widespread rejection of science and discovery has only become more obvious as I've expanded my social interaction. Not to say it's the majority, but there's a scary undercurrent of what feels like intentional ignorance. Pseudo-sciences and fascination with the paranormal aren't helping.

SVT01Cobra

Oh come on, you can't seriously be comparing a single country to an ENTIRE continent???

If you split those 61 companies up into thier respective countries, it's glaringly obvious which single country has the most. That's just a bunch of misleading bullshit.
"Only 50 are U.S. companies", yeah...ONLY 50. That's 81% as many companies that an entire continent has.

I'm not dissing Europe at all, but I'm just saying, that's just misleading crap.

SVT01Cobra

LOL, considering how many rednecks there are in America, I'm not suprised in the least.

Lockjaw

I agree with you but that's the problem people on the polar ends of the spectrum don't want to see. They don't want to see the other guy has a point. They don't want to see that a big problem with this country is it's laziness and desire to blame others for their faults. There is little in this country that couldn't be fixed with a little bit of hard SMART work and people taking personal responsibility.

I can't blame social program this or spending that if I look at my own family and see a giant part of the problem with the country looking back at me. We have become a greedy society and liberals and conservatives alike don't seem to recognize that.

pan6467

I see it is still all about disputing facts and semantics.

"And still we beat on boats against the current borne back ceaselessly into the past."
F. Scott Fitzgerald "The Great Gatsby"

We keep fighting over bullshit and we refuse to SOLVE the problems. Ah well, fuck it, we get what we deserve.

PS. Many thanks Lockjaw for your agreement and seeing the need of working together.... wish more people did.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

matthew330

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=81939

"I don't fucking care what it is. IT IS TIME TO FIX THE SYSTEM, BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN AND FUCKING GROW UP. PAY THE FUCKING TAXES AND STOP CRYING, WORK TO INCREASE PAYROLLS AND DEMAND THAT BENEFITS START BEING INCLUDED.

IT IS TIME TO TELL THE FUCKING HEALTHCARE COMPANIES TO FUCK OFF AND EITHER PROVIDE AFFORDABLE HEALTHCARE OR THE GOVERNMENT WILL STEP IN.

IT IS TIME TO REBUILD THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM AND SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT HOW BAD IT IS.

IT IS TIME TO FUCKING TIGHTEN OUR BELTS, AND AGREE THAT WE WANT A BETTER NATION AND WORK FOR ONE.

SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE PETTY DIFFERENCES AND THE FUCKING GREED AND JUST DO SOMETHING."

EVERYONE BACK AWAY!!
It's okay Pan, no one's here to hurt you. Everyone here loves you. We're here to help you.

....reminded me of "The Cable Guy.", sorry, continue...

pan6467

Had to laugh Matthew... so I shouldn't snap and put up barricades around the garden hedge, cause I'm close to going over the edge here....

I mean in another post I had someone ask me what was the better good of the country and the impression I got from his post, no matter what I said would have been cause for that person to say.... I was wrong and trying to shove my values down their throat.

Hey Zeus Freaking Fannie Mae and Uncle Chrispin..... I guess, I am a greedy selfish mother's father's brother's nephew for wanting better schools, better job oppurtunities and healthcare that all can afford....

The Libs cry that is just not enough
and the
Neo-Cons say.... MONEY, IT'S A GAS, KEEP YOUR HANDS OF MY STASH.........

Enough for someone who just wants a better place for his kids to grow up in ..... go.. and all the way to the funny farm

THEY'RE COMING TO TAKE ME AWAY HA HA HO HO HEE HEE TO THE FUNNY FARM WHERE LIFE IS HAPPY ==== now I understand what Napolean the 14th meant when he sang that.

Hold on the phone...

huh?
ooo
yes Nurse Cratchit I'm ready for my Thorazine now I'm on my way....
yes, tell Martini to have the little fisheys ready so we can catch big fisheys....

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

braindamage351

This article would be a lot more damaging if it didn't refer to Europe as one country. Of course Europe as a whole is better than us. But Europe isn't a country.