ShaniFaye

you know....for such a simple first post....to simply mourn the loss of soldiers that were killed over there...this has gone way off track in my opinion

Who cares what religious preference or non preference you are....where is the simple compassion that Rekna posted for?

Why does the mourning of the soldiers have to be dirtied with the "debating" on the whys and wherefores of how or why it happened?

Whatever happened to a good old fashioned moment of silence?

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Zeld2.0

Oh it happened the moment war was declared over ideology because there there are no rules in war

pedro padilla

in my humble 3 shots of tequila to wind opinion, to simply mourn numbers don´t cut it. it´s all about personalizing these 7 yesterdays dead. really try to remember that they ain´t just numbers. they all had mothers and brothers and friends and dreams. it´s incredibly important to put a human face to the number. otherwise its just another sad statistic for the books. but yeah, how bout a thousand minutes of silence? network tv. 1 minute for each. baby pics. hi school prom. grad night.
1 minute for each life would take like 16 hours. yeah, silence is golden.

Rdr4evr

I will only pray for the innocents that have perished. And the 1k soldiers, I do not consider innocent. Therefore, I will only pray for the Iraqis who wanted nothing to do with anything yet had bombs dropped on their heads.

Mephisto2

You don't consider the soldiers innocent? Now, as an anti-war poster, even _I_ think that's uncalled for.

Plenty of the dead Iraqis (like those in the Mahdi Army) are guilty of murder and mayhem also.

Tsk tsk. Shame on you for singling out one side for compassion, and not the other. It's makes said opinion (or "compassion") worthless.


Mr Mephisto

Rdr4evr

You know what, my fault, I should have been more specific. Fuck the Iraqi soldiers as well, I do not consider anyone who murders others innocent. I was talking about the innocent civilians.

Mephisto2

OK. Understood.

I may not agree with you entirely, as I believe everyone is entitled to compassion if they lose their lives, but at least I now know you didn't mean only one side was worth it.

Mr Mephisto

xepherys

Well, this is when I truly wince over another Americans opinion. As a soldier I am sworn to protect my country, and follow the orders of those above me. Failure to do so would mark me a deserter or, worse yet, a treasonous dog! I enlisted, after 9/11, after I was 25 years old, because I believe in the long-term truths of our country. Despite what my brothers- and sisters-at-arms have to do overseas, they each have a mission that is for the good of the country, like it or not. They do and will (as will I) commit to and perform those missions. Just because you don't like a particular war or battle is no reason to dog the average soldier overseas fighting for what they are told to fight for. If it was any other war, you'd likely be praising them. Surely, there were very few who were against WWII, saying, "just let the poor Nazis be". Innocents died in that war, too. Does that make the whole war wrong? Does that make the soldiers bad?

If, indeed, you are the type to be completely against war, for any reason at all, I feel bad for you. Your contempt for those who fight for your freedom to feel that contempt sucks just a little bit of your soul away, my friend. I hope you don't (or truly, that none of us do) live to see a war in which we HAVE to fight for our very freedoms and homeland. I'd hate to see you suffer through the pains of hating those who save your life.

Lebell

Back to the original post:

Thanks for the reminder and I can definitely mourn the loss of life and the stupidity of wars.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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roachboy

equating the iraq war with world war 2 is somehow ok, but there are cautions thrown about the board on comparisons with vietnam?
how does that work?
the analogy to world war 2 is so completely false, so thoroughly misguided as to hover on that line between obscene and funny.

the idea that being a pacifist--of all things--would lead one to have contempt for the people who are in the military is almost as bad. most of the actual pacifists that i know--not fictions generated in some far right fever dream of who their opposition might be--are religious people, particularly quakers--their whole position is rooted in compassion--for military personel who are killed in too-often absurd wars (like iraq) and for the casualties inflicted on civilians (you know, collateral damage)..
this kind of pacifism has nothing to do with the characterization floated above. nothing.
(i am not myself a pacifist, btw)

when i think of the number of troops killed in iraq, i am angered all over again at the bushlogic that put them to be there in the first place.
it was, is and will remain an unnecessary, illegal war.
over 1000 americans killed carrying out the neoconservative fantasies of american global hegemony--who knows how many iraqis killed for the sake of the same fantasy scenario, combattants and (particularly) civilians.
it is good to think, and think hard, about these deaths and hold the administration responsible for them to account.

there was no security justification for this war.

there was no strategic justification for this war, outside the hellucinations of the wolfowitz crowd.

there was no human rights justification for this war--the american state has never cared about human rights abuse so long as the regime that carried out those abuses was politically convenient. the motives of the state are a far cry from the motive imputed to the state by the public.

this is theater, this war.

1000 americans dead.

uncounted iraqis dead.

yes, it is good to think about this.

it is good to think hard about this.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Rdr4evr

Do not feel bad for me because I am against war and murder of innocent people while you blindly bow to your "commander in chief". If anything you should feel bad for yourself for the very fact that you have the capability to take another human beings life without hesitation and remorse.

The war in Iraq is not "fighting for my freedom". Iraq was never a threat to neither my freedom nor my life. I will NEVER fight any war because I personally do not have the capability to kill someone as it goes against everything I believe in.

You can believe you are fighting for "freedom" all you like, but in reality you are putting your life at risk for a individual who wouldn't give a shit less whether you live or die.

As for your comment about praising soldiers had it been another war, you are wrong. I will never praise any soldier (murderer) for any excuse they use to kill for. I personally would rather die myself than kill another...at least that way I know my soul wont be in for eternal suffering.

Go ahead and consider them heroic or consider them courageous, but I don’t believe murder constitutes any of those qualities. Being heroic or courageous would be to resist war and have the will power and wisdom to understand killing is wrong.

EDIT: As a side note: I am not religious at all, as I believe ultimately, religion is the root of all evil...but I do know the difference between right and wrong.

Lebell

While I disagree with the sentiments expressed, I support the right to say them.

I would however caution against calling people murderers because your philosophy is different.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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MSD

My friends who went there to fight do.

JumpinJesus

I'm reading through this post and I'm getting kinda angry about what I read. I feel like I'm about to piss everyone off, but I feel this needs to be said and I hope that someone can agree with me. I don't want to be a cynical asshole but I'm afraid that's where I am.

First of all, isn't the whole, "My friend is more patriotic than your friend" schtick a little uncouth? It wouldn't make a bit of difference if I had 1,000 friends in the Army in Iraq and every last 1,000 of them thought the war was shit; there are tens of thousands of soldiers over there. I was in the military during Gulf War I and I can assure you that some were thrilled to go and some thought the war was bullshit. This whole my-pro-war-soldier-friends-in-Iraq-outnumber-your-anti-war-soldier-friends spiel is tiresome and vice versa. To use this as some sort of patriotic score-keeping is vulgar.

Second, our 1,000 dead pale in comparison to the tens of thousands of Iraqis who have died. If we fancy ourselves members of the human race, then every war death is devastating, especially non-combatant deaths. Remember, Saddam was the supposed to be the bad guy, not the entire nation of Iraq, yet we ignore Iraqi deaths as if we have somehow relegated all Iraqis to the realm of enemy. If we only value American deaths as noteworthy, then our place in this world is unjustified.

We are talking about war, yet we used cliched political sound bites and call it dialogue or debate. Unless we are willing to inflict and endure some verbal wounds and do so intelligently, then we are going to be stuck in intellectual quicksand with no one to blame but ourselves, and the deaths will continue to mount while we arrogantly deride the "other" side as immature, ignorant, or unpatriotic. This elementary bickering dishonors everyone who has died in this conflict, and we're all guilty of it.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Mephisto2

Well said JJ.

Mr Mephisto

Fred181

Someday I hope that both war and the soldiers that fight in them will be proven unneccessary, however until then I find it apalling that you could be so disrespectful towards the individuals that are sacrificing so much. This thread was started to think about, pray for, or mourn the loss of ALL people that have lost thier lives. To say that any group doesn't deserve our thoughts and sympathy is simply disturbing.

__________________
My heart will be restless until it finds its final rest. Then they can weigh it...

Rdr4evr

EDIT: Why bother.......

Dwayne

I pray for the dead of the innocents and the people who fight for what I believe in.

Ah the Monroe Doctorine, where has it gone.

xepherys

First of all, I do not "bow blindly" to our Commander-in-Chief. I follow orders that are laid out above me in the chain of command, as do hundred of thousands of other soldiers in our fine United States military. And though I may have to take a life without hesitation (and only to save my own, or my battle buddies), why would you think it would be without remorse? Do you know any war vets? Have you ever talked to them about the war? Remorse is often felt very strongly by those who encountered fire fights and know that a soldier, friendly OR enemy, died because of it.

I do not put my life at risk for any individual. I put my life at risk for ALL individuals in this country and as far as I can tell, even by the sentiment of this thread, the great many of them do care. Just because you are callous against soldiers does not mean that everyone is. And just because I fight does not mean I do it for the President.

As for your soul suffering eternally (and also not being religious), being spiritual is religious. Religion doesn't have to take the form of some half-baked (or fully-baked) organized church. If you have a soul, and you worry about it, you're religious, whether you believe in god, the ethereal realm, or any other type of afterlife. I'm not "religious", by your sense of the definition either, but I believe that what I do in good conscience will not harm my soul in the afterlife. I believe that nazi soldiers are just as likely to be in heaven as any other human being, save those who tortured and killed prisoners in death camps by cruel and unusual means. *shrug* There's a line... a pretty broad, ugly, big one.

Overall, it's obvious we won't ever agree on this topic. It seems the two of us are about as polar as opposites can get. However, I respect your right to have your opinion, and I'm saddened slightly that any would think of me or others like me as murderers. C'est la vie!


JJ, I'm sorry you felt the debate had come down to that. I agree that having petty arguments as such is counter-productive. I don't believe any "patriotic score-keeping" has been had though. I don't believe such an event could even occur for anyone who is truly patriotic.

Our thousand soldiers who have died HAVE paled in comparison to Iraqis who have died, including Iraqi military, civilians and militants. I do feel for the Iraqis with the loss of civilians, and I respect greatly the loss of the military members who died in the initial fight. However, I have a hard time respecting those who say they fight for their god, but must hide and be secret about so much. If they at least came out and said, "We're scared and think this is wrong so we'll fight against it" then fine, but to hide and fight in cowardice in the name of your god is just ridiculous. On a side-note, and I've mentioned it either earlier in this thread or in another thread... if you look hard and close, and from various sources (including non-U.S.), the vast majority of non-combatant deaths have been caused BY those same Iraqi militants. Surely it could be argued that our presence led to their deaths. But honestly people... the militants are killing their own countrymen... as per usual. Our presence hasn't changed as much over there as a lot of people would like to believe (for better or for worse). I'm surely not racist. I know a good number of people of Arabic decent, including Muslims and Iraqis. However, the mindset of many of the people over there has fallen into this terrorist suicide-bomber mentality, and it's been that way since long before 2003, or 2001 or 1991. It's been that way for decades, and even centuries in some aspects. We just see it in the news a lot more because sometimes our people are dying there, too. It's sad that American citizens would get so bent out of shape about something without actually knowing much about the history of the people or countries or area of the world that the news is happening in.

If this is elementary bickering, than I apologize. From my perspective it's the truth, and it shows Americans in a terrible light, not for being warmongers or Big Brother, but for being uninformed, ignorant and being lemming and sheep to the media. Try looking at the world through your own eyes, not the eyes of the newscaster on Channel 7.

Rdr4evr

You do blindly bow to your leader for the very fact that you take orders (lies) and go to war under false pretenses. Had you known Iraq was not a threat to us, you would probably have not gone. (Your govt. is masters at brainwashing, so chances are you do think Iraq is part of the "axis of evil") I say you don’t have remorse because you go out there and would do it again without second thought. I personally do not know a lot of soldiers except one, and his view is for the most part violent. He talks about how he enjoys killing people....that is beside the point though. I don’t base my opinion on a couple of soldiers I meet, I base it on what I know is right and wrong.

First off, it does not matter to me what the majority thinks. Secondly, you state you put your life at stake for ALL individuals in this country, so I will have to repeat myself. Iraq was not a threat to me or anyone in this country; therefore you put your life on the line for Bush's personal agenda. I don’t want to be represented by any soldiers, none of them fight for my life, and my life is in my creator’s hands, not yours or your comrades.

Yes, we will never agree on this as are morals are extremely different. I apologize, you are right about religion being spiritual. I do not believe in organized religion, but I do believe in a higher power. Be it God or aliens, I'm just talking about my creator. I do believe in an afterlife too, so I guess it’s a different idea of religion. I'll say this though, if you believe Nazi soldiers are in "heaven”; that gives you an excuse to kill as many innocent people as you please without worrying about the consequences in the next life. You are lying to yourself so you could have a good conscience.

xepherys

Again I disagree... I take orders from officers appointed above me. The president has yet to call me up and ask me to kill some poor Iraqi children. I go to war under no pretenses at all. Iraq was not a threat to us... yet. *shrug* Saddam Hussein WAS a threat to his people, as was seen by the genocide that occured in Iraq. I don't believe in the existance of an "Axis of Evil" at all. Just because the President has created a new buzz phrase does not mean all soldiers are brainwashed to believe such a thing exists. I do believe, however, that there are evil people in the world. There are some soldiers and marines I've come across that have a psychotic attitude, but I assure you that most in the military do not feel that way.



Again, you cannot say what my reasons are... only I can determine my own reasons for doing something. Whether you like it or not, I'm here to serve you as much as anyone else. On a side note, if a cop shoots someone in self defense, is he an evil, hell-bound murderer as well? You say killing is wrong 100% of the time. I'm curious if you really believe that.



How does my correlation with nazi soldiers have anything to do with an excuse for me? I don't think there is any excuse to kill any innocent people at all. a) No soldier is innocent. As soon as you put on a uniform and fight against me, you are my enemy, whether you're my brother, a stranger or anyone else. b) I do not think wanton violence is the answer, and that is not what occurs in wartime, even in Iraq. I'm not lying to myself about anything. Again, please do not make assumptions on my behalf. If my views are different than yours, that does not constitute "lying to" myself.

JBX

But they did support it at the start of the war. The President does not have the luxury to change with the polls. The action was started with approval. Now it must be followed through. 1000 deaths is a tragedy, but in the scope of war, we've sadly had one days fighting with more losses.

__________________
"Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

joellp

Definitely the most blood-pressure-raising thread I've read in a LONG time so, for the sake of my health, I won't comment on most of it. BUT, why is it that people continue to claim that this is one man's personal agenda and that he alone is responsible for us being there? Seems to me that congress authorized the attack through normal protocols. You can debate all day long whether or not the information that was presented turned out to be accurate but hindsight is always 20/20.

Rdr4evr

By your logic we should go into every country with a bad leader and blow them to shit, correct? Since you seem to care deeply for the poor Iraqis that suffered under Saddams regime, why not go get rid of Castro as well? Probably because they have no resources America is in need of. Do you honestly believe "Dubya" cares for the Iraqis? Iraq was in a better situation before this useless war ever began. If as you claim, all soldiers are not in fact brainwashed....why go fight for something that one does not believe in? That would make them the true cowards. Bush needs to worry about the shit load of problems in his own country before bombing for "democracy" in others. Peace is much less likely in Iraq as well as the rest of the world because of this senseless war.



Killing is wrong 99% of the time FOR ME. I don’t think I could ever kill someone unless under truly extreme circumstances. If a man rapes or murders, does he deserve death? Absolutely. Will I be the one delivering it? No. But in my opinion, the death that war causes is the most unnecessary death of all, and a soldier, be it American or Iraqi, is no better than a rapist or murderer in my eyes, especially the sick ones you mention. Or maybe I'm full of shit and will kill someone one day, but I can guarantee you it won’t be someone innocent, i.e. the people you and your buddies are killing in Iraq. And please accept the fact that you are not serving me.


I don’t know you well enough to make those comments, but that is the only reason I can think of for you to have that opinion.

In all likelyhood, we could argue this till the thread reaches 200 pages, but I don’t feel it is necessary to debate this anymore. I respect you for the fact that you can have a civilized conversation without resorting to infantile behavior like a lot of users in the politics board seem to do quite often. But it is for the most part useless to continue this.

Fred181

I absolutely do not believe that. I am fully aware of the political and economic reasons that led Bush to invade another country, however does that make a difference in the long run? If (and I emphisize the if) Iraq is left in a better situation when this is all over is that not what matters? While I will not agree that Sadam was a threat to the U.S., I do think that he was a tyranical and ruthless leader of his country. If Iraq can pull through its current difficulties wasn't the removal of Sadam in the end a goood thing?

I am glad that you are able to go through your life doing only what YOU want to do. You love your job, you only go to work when you feel like it etc etc. The men and women in Iraq are not all there because they want to be, but they made a commitment to do something. They made a commitment that they would respond when they're nation needed them. When deployed for the War in Afghanistan I did not want to go live in a tent when it was 120 degrees outside I didn't want to go off to war but I made a commitment to my country and while I don't feel that the operations in Iraq are just, that does not stop me from the commitment I made because someday my country will call upon me for something that truly is just.

Coward: "One who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain."

How does fighting for a cause that you don't neccesarily believe in make someone a coward? AND more than 40% of the country still agrees with the war in Irag; Does that mean that they are all brainwashed because they do not hold the same opinion as you?

1. An Anti-War activist that believes in corpral punishment? I don't see how you can say that a person that has commited 1 murder, or a rapist that has never even taken a life should be victim of a state execution, while an Iraqi that has killed multiple people is "innocent".
2. I can appreciate your feelings of being unable to kill another person, however I have a hard time with not having a problem with it when someone else is doing it. From a moral standpoint how can you justify something as "right" when you are unable to carry out the same action? If you can't bring yourself to do it personally, is it still "right"?

Well, I guess there is no arguing with your opinion...

First of all, Xepherys has stated repeatedly that he is not in Iraq. Second, It is interesting that you would call the Iraqi soldiers dying "innocent". Where those same Iraqi soldiers "innocent" when they invaded Kuwait, killing hundreds? When they used Chemical weapons on the Kurdish refugees? Are there truly innocent people, "civilians", dying? Yes. Are some of them dying at the hands of US soldiers? Yes, some of them are... However, I think your view of the average US soldier is very misplaced and (with the exception of your views on killing) I don't understand where they come from. Having only know one soldier, how can you make an informed judgment on how they feel about war, and killing? Because you watched Full Metal Jacket? Because you watch the nightly news? I know many, many people serving in the military that have no desire to go to Iraq. I know many people that have seen, and been a part of military conflicts, and not one of them enjoyed having to kill people. The images of the deaths haunt them.

And for this one time under this topic I will agree with you Rdr4evr, there is no sense arguing a point that we will never agree on so I'm done.

__________________
My heart will be restless until it finds its final rest. Then they can weigh it...

Rdr4evr

If (and that is a huge If) Iraq can in fact become a democracy, than of course it is a good thing. But the risk of "if" is too strong to go to war. Chances are Iraq is going to be a much more of a violent country because the fanatics now have an even larger excuse to continue they’re senseless killings.


Who says I go through my life doing whatever I please? Don’t make the assumption that I live a carefree life for the simple fact that I do not agree with war.

You do not feel the Iraq war is just yet you go fight because of a commitment? You should stand up for what you believe in and not go to an unjust war, that will make you a true hero.


Whenever I describe a soldier as a coward for going to an unjust war, I mean that more mentally than anything. They are weak minded for fighting for something they do not believe in rather than having self respect and pride. In that sense, they are huge cowards because they fear expressing their beliefs.


First off, if you read my earlier posts, you would see that I said the Iraqi soldiers are just as guilty as US soldiers. I do not base my opinion on the Americans alone; I base it amongst all soldiers. I may seem hypocritical when I say I personally cannot do it but someone else may. And you are right, that doesn’t justify it or make it right, but If I am in no way responsible for someone’s death, I believe I can still agree with it.




First let me just state that I don’t believe any mainstream media or base any opinions on movies, so you can forget that argument. Like I stated earlier, I don’t make my judgment on all soldiers just because the one I know is sick in his head, I base it on my personal morals and values. If a soldier that is haunted and traumatized because of their actions in the military, they will not receive any sympathy from me. Why? Because they made the decision to kill and therefore have to pay the consequences. If murdering innocent people causes a soldier mental anguish, than they are getting off easy. How do you think the families of the innocent deaths feel; they have it much harder than the soldiers.

OpieCunningham

This is not correct. Most polls prior to the war showed that the good majority of American's only supported the war with the approval of the U.N. It wasn't until after the war started that the majority approved of the action - due to the misguided perception that one must categorically support the President during war. A perception that has slowly deteriorated, though considering the failure to date, it is still suprisingly stronger than one would expect.