seretogis

I started to read through it, but it's just way too much text without linebreaks, so I gave up.

I'm currently of the mind to give Israel the benefit of the doubt though. You don't see them sending suicide bombers into cafes and then partying in the streets afterwards. The entire region seems so backwards to me, it doesn't seem to take much to get them more excited than people at a Star Trek convention when Jeri Ryan comes in the door.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

crumbbum

That's an amusing way of putting it

Sun Tzu

crumbbum as you said in the other thread this could go on forever. At least from my perspective you’re saying things that do make sense and give foundation to why you’re seeing things from the perspective your seeing them from.
It does boil back to perspective as does everything I suppose. Outside our conversation I truly have seen several versions of how the history is recounted. Some are creative choices of words while other outright tell completely different versions. It has been my latest endeavor to attempt to find records the aren’t recounted by someone that doesn’t have some sort of vested interest in either side, because amazingly every time I follow the trail the source ALWAYS leads to one direction or the other.

I certainly don’t agree with the methods the bombers are using, I admit I would want revenge if it were my mom killed by one of those bombs, but I would have equal feelings of revenge if my fiancé was killed by Israeli sniper fire. There are always two sides to every issue. I don’t make the mistake of lumping 911 Saudi's crew to this situation. Bin Ladens fanatical followers are not Palestinian. I don’t believe most of these individuals even believe they are going to paradise, I just think they no longer care. (That does not make it right)

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

crumbbum

I'm sorry to hear about your fight with your uncle, Sun Tzu. I agree with everything you're saying. As complicated and hairy as these things are, I also think they affect all of us. I didn't realize you were in the military. What do you do for a living now?

About the arab-israeli conflict, like I said in my response to that list of quotes you posted, I don't necessarily blame the Palestinians themselves for hating the Israelis. It is not that simple- it must be understood that these people have been, and are being used as political pawns, and have been manipulated and brainwashed greatly. As far as the religious element, and the belief that they will go to paradise, I am afraid that that is true. Desperation leads to suicide alone in a bedroom- it is only hate that can lead someone to strap a bomb to themself, packed with nail and screw and rat poison, and then to go detonate amidst a crowd of women and children.

I by no means think that the Palestinians should just be indefinitely militarily crushed- I think a solution needs to be found, that will address the humanitarian need on both sides to end the violence, as well as the miserable conditions in the territories. The problem is that until Palestinian violence stops, there is no way to implement any type of peace. Israel can't make concessions while it is under attack. I think that the only reason we are still seeing terror is because it has gotten the Palestinians gains in the past, and still does, with most of the world now pushing for Israeli concessions in the Road map, without an end to terror.

I think peace needs to be made, but I don't think that it can be until there is a fundamental change on the Palestinian side. I don't see how it is in Israel's power right now to create peace, while the attacks against their citizens continues.
I am hoping that the Israelis take the opportunity to get rid of Arafat- he has been dispatching terrorists, and is impeding Mazen from stopping the violence. The thing is though, I fear that even if the violence stops, and a Palestinian state is set up in the West Bank, that it will only make war inevitable- I don't see how such a state could have sovereignty, and still not be a threat. It would seem that if made today, it would become a terror state, and at best a forward position for any future arab attack on Israel. I don't think it will lead to peace. I also don't think any concessions while terror continues will lead to peace- it will only embolden the terrorists by sending the message that such methods are effective.

I am also afraid that 9/11 and Palestinian terror are very much connected. The Palestinians danced in the streets on 9/11. Al-Qaeda is active in the Palestinian territories, and it was the PLO that really started the phenomenon of airplane hijackings. The terrorist networks are all linked to some extent. They are not exactly the same, but they are still connected- and without question, they watch the other. If the message is sent that terror works against Israel, with the aquiescence of the West, then this support will also embolden terrorism against the west. It is indeed the same fight. The Palestinian cause was concocted by the Arab countries after their defeats by Israel- it was they who funded and set up the PLO. I am not saying that the Palestinians themselves realize this- they, I'm sure, believe in their heart that Israel has caused all of their problems, and is the real enemy.

I used to do Peer counseling in high school, among other things, and I've found that certain principles hold true in both macro-and micro(like interpersonal) situations. One of them, is that there is no true peace without justice, and truth. Until the truth has been accounted for, any "peace" will only be fragile and temporary. I can't see how real peace will ever come until the terror stops, permanently, until the responsibility is assigned where it belongs for the plight of the Palestinians today, until the Jewish refugees are accounted for, until the middle east modernizes, and until Palestinian society has been deprogrammed from the cult of death and violence it has become. Children are encouraged to go out on the front lines to throw rocks (and firebombs) at soldiers- this is done cynically and deliberately, on Palestinian Authority Television. I think a lot of people miss the fact that this has been a media war.

Anyway Sun-Tzu, I am sorry you are aren't feeling well, you seem like a very sensitive person, and I really admire your struggling see the truth in this situation, and to maintain intellectual honesty, examining both sides. It wears one down, I know- I didn't have an opinion when I first started studying the topic, about 2 years ago. I was actually in a Political Science class where the teacher happened to specialize in this area- she was strongly pro-palestinian. Not knowing any better, and respecting her authority, I initially accepted what she said. I became aware though, that rather than teach the different perspectives on the conflict, and allow students to decide for themselves, that she would instead teach only a certain viewpoint as fact. As it turned out, I caught in a few lies, and becoming kind of pissed off, I started learning more about this, just so that I would know better.

I would debate with her all the time. The defining moment for me was after a class that was spent discussing the issue of torture. Unlike most countries, Israel has legalized torture- certain non-lethal methods. The methods they use I believe are "shaking", where an interrogator may violently shake the suspect, they have one method where they make the suspect squat for a long period of time. The last that I'm aware of is that they sometimes place foul-smelling bags over the heads of prisoners. Obviously, this is a pretty ugly thing to have to do. Still, it is legal, and therefore regulated, and non-lethal. In most countries torture is illegal, but is practiced anyway, and with far more inhumane methods. In arab countries people are frequently electrocuted, nials are pulled out, fingers cut off, etc.

So anyway, after class I am arguin with her. She had been saying in class how wrong it was for Israel to use torture, how it violated the Geneva conventions, etc. So I asked if she meant, that in the situation where the Israeli police have a suspect, that may or may not know, but they have reason to believe knows, about a bombing that will soon take place that would kill 10 innocent people, that it would be morally wrong to use non-lethal torture, if that was the only way to get the information? She replied that not only was it wrong, but that I sounded dangerously similar to people that have advocated genocide. Genocide! With that, she walked away, ending the conversation and not allowing me to respond. It was then that I knew she was full of shit. I was always under the impression that human rights legislation was done for the purpose, above all else, of preserving human life. I was disgusted that she had labeled me and avoided my question.

Anyway, you should see some of the papers I initially wrote for the class. I also have examined both sides, I have read a number of pro-palestinian sites, and examined their claims. As far as I have so far found, the truth seems to be on the side of the Israelis. And like Seretogis said above, very simply, the Palestinians have repeatedly used absolutely barbaric and inhuman methods, and seem to relish the human suffering of the Israelis. I have not seen any such joy from Israelis at any of the measures they have to take in order to stop the attacks on them, or when innocent Palestinians are killed in the course of fighting.

In addition to what I said above about the suicide bombers, it must be noted that it is NOT desperation that drives this. There have been many very desperate people in the history of the world, and they did not resort to such barbarity. Even in the Muslim world, there are peoples that suffer far more than the palestinians do. Just look at Sudan, for one example. The bombers families, until recently, were rewarded with $25,000 checks from Saddam Hussein. They also received, and I assume still do receive, money from Saudi Arabia and the PA, though it is far less than what came from Iraq. In that part of the world, that is serious money, more than the average Palestinian will see in many years. The suicide bombers, or Shahids, martyrs, are glamorized and idolized by the Palestinian population. They are heroes- streets are named after them, posters of them are everywhere, kids even collect and trade necklaces with the pictures of them on them. It is a cultural phenomenon- 70% of the Palestinians support the bombings. And of course, there is the religious element as well. It should also be said that the bombers are conditioned mentally by the terror groups, by their "handlers"- it is not a spontaneous undertaking.

These people have been brainwashed to the point where I don't see how culturally, there is any opening for peace. They have been conditioned with hatred and rejection and violence. I don't see how peace can be made until there has been some "de-programming". Ironically, before Oslo Israelis would regularly visit Arab villages, and vice versa. Palestinians would work in Israel. There were friendships between the peoples, and even mixed communities. It was, also ironically, the fact that during the years of occupation, from 1967 to 1993, Israel ran the schools in the territories. This is what made it possible to talk peace. Now the schools teach hatred, not co-existence. It will take a long time to undo the damage from all of this, and to create the conditions for peace again. I don't think there are any easy solutions, and that is why I think the Roadmap is doomed to failure. I think pressing Israel for concessions to a crazed and hate-filled enemy is morally wrong and dangerous to the whole world.

And of course, I just wonder pragmatically that even if there were a chance of peace, how 2 states could viably exist west of the Jordan. As Daniel Pipes points out in the article he wrote (I posted the link before), it is almost inevitable that this would result in another war, that would lead to the destruction of either Israel of the new state of Palestine. I think the Palestinians should have their state, but when it comes down to it I do not see any truly compelling reason that it needs to be west of the Jordan. There is more than enough available land in the vast arab world for such a state, that no one would miss, that would not cause a war. Basically, my interest in this is, among other things, that I have relatives in Israel (which I didn't know until not too long ago), and I would like them to live. I would also like to see the Palestinians live, in a normal society, and not be held captive in those squallid camps, or to have to live under occupation. I would like one day to see a just world. It would just seem to me that the best way to diffuse this conflict would be to give them a state elsewhere, or to live peacefully but acknowledge Israeli sovereignty. (Oslo was an attempt to give the Palestinians autonomy and self-determination- if it didn't lead to endless terrorism, there is certainly nothing wrong with that. They should be able to run their own lives). You have posted a link to the Israeli reservists that refuse to serve in the territories. Where are the Palestinians that condemn the murder of Israelis? I don't know if there have been any, but I do know that many Palestinians have been murdered by the Palestinians Authority, for the "crime" of collaborating with Israel. If any Palestinians ever wanted peace, they have likely been assassinated.

Anyway, I want you to know Sun-Tzu that from our dialogue I have a lot of respect for you. I'm sorry you're having a hard time, and I hope it gets better soon. I remember reading once a Jewish saying that "An argument for the sake of heaven will last". What this means, I think, is that when the mutual goal is to understand the truth, that any dispute will in the end be a fruitful one, that will hopefully in the end lead its participants closer to real understanding, if not perfect understanding. Your thoughtful posts have led me to deepen my thoughts about this, and I have really enjoyed the exchange. I hope the weariness it sounds like you are experiencing eases up soon. I hope this exchange has not contributed to it- I have found it stimulating and thought-provoking. Respect and best wishes.

__________________
Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

Sun Tzu

I had to make one last comment because its highly important. My firend called me the morning of 9/11 right after the first plane hit, and I like everyone else just sat in horror and disbelief as the events unfolded. It was approximately 4 hours later that I saw that I saw the footage. I thought to myself "you sorry bastards; if you only knew you were cutting your own throats here" the feelings I usually had were replace with quick anger and not caring about my previous stance. Its my usual impression that feelings of anger toward America are there because of the mechanisms and weapondry being used against them. Im sure your well aware of their claims. After watching that I was infuriated.

Then came the spin: Rumors continue to circulate through the internet and other sources that CNN used old footage to fake images of "Palestinians dancing in the street" after the terrorist attack on the USA. These rumors have been debunked by numerous sources, including the American Arab Anti Discrimination Committee (ADC). In an action alert, the ADC says it is "convinced that there is no basis for this allegation," which it characterizes as an "internet hoax." A small group of Palestinian in the village of Nablus really did celebrate the bombing. However, ADC objects strongly to "the fact that footage of the small 'celebrations' were aired continuously, while much larger commemorations, candle-light vigils and other expressions of public grief by Palestinians were ignored. ADC believes that a false impression of the reactions of the Palestinian people to the attacks, which was overwhelmingly negative, has been created by this select use of footage, but not by any falsification or recycling of old footage." The ADC itself has condemned the terrorist attacks and has established a special fund to assist the victims. The ADC website lists similar statements condemning the attacks from throughout the Arab world, along with resources to combat hate crimes against Arabs that have subsequently surged.

It didnt dawn on me until a week later; I saw the footage approximately 4 hours later after the second towers was hit. I remeber my friend calling me stating something to the effect of "you see what did I tell you about those #$@## Palestinians" My clock read around 10:45 am mountain time. Thats an analog clock so give or take a few minutes. Therse no mistaking that I remeber that day clearly. I remeber the footage: it shows Palestiian children being handed candy and dancing in the background.

This was the typical response by Americans (including myself-which spread fast): I watched with disbelief and tears in my eyes when I saw the Palestinians dancing in the street. They were happy about this? I know they don’t think much of America, but can they not feel some remorse for those citizens that died so senselessly and needlessly? I have never danced in the streets at anyone’s death, whether they are American or Palestinian, or anyone else. I think my views on that have changed now, and if it so happened that there was a terrorist attack in Palestine, I can’t say that I’d be upset about it. Personally, I think these Palestinians should be ashamed of themselves. I think anyone else who’s Palestinian should be ashamed of their people.

It wasnt until 10 days later did I realize how this had gotten by me and everyone else that fell for it. I wrote CNN 7 times demanding an explanation, including the journalist and cameraman that shot the footage. I have yet to recieve one, but this is how easy people can be taken. Its clear from the above article the footage is accepted as real today, think about it again do you see the blantent assumption everysone's stupid. It goes beyond insulting, it fills me with rage th think about. Can you guess what the big lie here is?

Im no longer in the military. I served 5 years honorably before being discharge with a injury.

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

crumbbum

CNN is guilty of manipulating the truth in many areas. However, I'm afraid the celebration and sentiment was a bit more widespread than you might think. I mean, the Palestinians were Saddam's only ally in both Gulf Wars. They were crushed when he was defeated. I don't know about CNN's footage, but I know that American flags are burned all the time. PLO terrorists are also responsible for the murder many US citizens and some US diplomats (like the US ambassador to the Sudan). I think that there was actually a great deal of happiness about the 9/11 attacks in the territories. They, like most of the arab world, hate the US, although the PLO leadership deals with America, because they see it as the only party that can force Israeli concessions. The celebration after 9/11 definitely was not a marginal phenomenon. I could probably find more info about this if you are interested.

They also party in the streets and hand out sweets quite frequently, when suicide bombers successfully kill Israelis, and they stood on the rooftops and cheered as Scud missiles rained on Tel Aviv in the first Gulf War. I am not exaggerating with this, I was under the impression that it was common knowledge.

Anyway, that issue aside, how are you? You seemed pretty stressed out before, are you feeling any better? What did you do in the army by the way? If the discussion is aggravating you, we don't have to continue the topic. Anyway, hope you're feeling better.

__________________
Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

Sun Tzu

Thanks, I’m in school, have assisted my mother in starting her publishing company, attempting to start mine . . .. blah blah blah

Yeah I was going to hop out fir awhile more due to time than choice.

I think the situation is not the same because of the growing tension, but in the many times I went to the Holy Land was I thought I was being treated rudely by an Arab, when in fact it was an Israeli. In fact sometimes (actually most of the time) I couldn’t distinguish the two apart. Anyone carry a weapon including some hot girls I met carry a fully automatic weapon on their shoulder was obviously Israeli, I’m referring to civilians. The Palestinians were always courteous to meat every turn. I didn’t start getting glares until I went to the Wailing Wall; and it wasn’t Palestinians doing it.


In reference to my question I wrote CNN seven times because it was their journalist that made that story, and where that circulating footage that spread like wildfire across the news came from. I had one simple question the first letter: How does daylight exist on two opposite ends of the Earth at the same time? The letters became less cordial as I wrote them. To date I've never received a response. The bottom line in that was my first true awakening that the masses are being programmed. It happens everyday. I find it rather insulting. What do you think would happen if somehow some producer over there saw my letters as a threat to the channels integrity and came forward that it was a mistake? Nothing. Nothing would happen. Because people don’t seem to care.

From a neutral stance it doesn’t matter who’s right or wrong; just who has the better weapons. Like the predatorily chain it's the Israeli’s right; they evolved faster; quicker; better. Zen teaches there’s a basic law that’s universal that correlates to the reality we've created for ourselves in our worldly lives: Everything has a price, nothing is free, one cannot take without giving if they don’t, the universe will naturally enforce its law. Not hocus pocus in test it will prove true 100% of the time.

If you saw various clips of Israelis doing acts that undeniably could in no way shape or form be taken out of context of being nothing short of atrocities their Jewish peers suffered in the Holocaust, would you think they were faked?

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

crumbbum

In my experience many of the examples of the extensive list of things you listed that I have found have been fabricated. If I were to see something genuine, I would certainly not deny it out of hand, I would check into. You are really saying a lot here though- I would appreciate some evidence, links, or some source for all of this. The Israelis have been repeatedly accused of many things that they are in fact innocent of.

Sun-Tzu, I know you are a really intelligent person. I hope that you haven't fallen for a lot of the propaganda that is put out. If you have sources for this stuff, I'd like them so I can check it out. That said, I have seen these accusations many times before, and I have investigated them before. Most of them are taken out of context, or are sheer fabrications. I hope that you have not fallen for this kind of disinformation. I know what you said about, but it really is disinformation. I was wondering if you'd read my last few posts- what did you think about them? Did you have any answers to the points I'd made?

In my experience, if anything, people seem to have a knee-jerk reaction that Israel must be at fault in this conflict. I have seen much abuse of information, and so many facts missed and ignored. I hope that you can take the things I say truly into consideration. I have presented a lot in our discussions, and I hope that your mind is still open about this issue.

As far as the rudeness of the people you met, you really can't judge anything about the conflict from that, it is a cultural difference. The only arab country I have been to is Turkey, but from my experience there the Arabs I met were extremely warm and charming people. From what I understand, this hospitality and warmth is a characteristic of arab and Muslim culture. This, however, has no bearing on the conflict over there.

"the massacres of entire villages"
I have heard many accusations about this, most recently about Jenin, but the only massacre I'm aware of any Israelis committing was at Deir Yassin, and that has been distorted with time (I posted a link about it).

"the plan that’s seems apparent to some of Palestinian irradication lest they move out"
If the Israelis had ever had the intention of driving them out, they would have done so in 67.

"truths about mass graves"
again these accusations have never been substantiated. Last spring when the IDF pulled out of Jenin, everyone immediately accused them of a massacre, with mass graves, etc. Nothing of the sort was found upon investigation, and all the charges were false.

"UN observers being harassed and shot"
Last year 2 UN observers were shot by Palestinian gunmen in their car. I know that a few UN people have gotten caught in crossfires between Israeli troops and Palestinian gunmen. They have also sheltered terrorists in the UNWRA compounds.

"and images to horrid to post on this site of mutilated babies, dead mothers clinging to their dead children didn’t prove to be faked" When you fight using human shields, and hide behind innocent civilians, innocent civilians get hurt. Civilians are never targeted by the IDF.

"video clips of unsuspecting Israeli soldiers that they were being taped beating teenage boys skulls in while their hands were bound proved accurate and real"
If you could provide a source for this, I'd appreciate it. I know that some border policemen were recently indicted in Israel for brutality. It is not common practice, or acceptable in the army. I'm not saying it never happens- there have been many problems with police brutality in America too, if you think about it. That doesn't make it mainstream or acceptable practice in the Israeli Military, and it is not commonplace.

"accounts of the tractor driver that drove homes down in Jenin crushing innocent people and enjoying it,"
Where do you get this from? They give three warning over a bullhorn before they demolish houses. They don't crush people in the houses.

"the stories of helicopters firing missiles into neighborhoods"
There have been helicopter strikes against terrorist leaders. Some innocent bystanders have been hurt at times, it is unavoidable. Civilians are never targeted, and the terrorists targeted in these strikes generally have the blood of many people on their hands, and/or are in the process of planning new attacks.

"Jews reside comfortably in homes the great grandparents of Palestinians that live stacked up on each other in slums built, the long extensive lists of children needlessly shot by Israel snipers to blind, mame or kill"

I don't know about the first part. I wouldn't doubt that there are a few examples of jews living in homes evacuated in 48. Again, most Palestinians left on their own at the urging of arab leaders, thinking they could return once the Jews were wiped out. So what? And Israeli snipers do NOT target Palestinian children, that is ridiculous. Palestinian children are encouraged on TV, in their schools, and by their parents to confront Israeli soldiers. Last time I checked, the use of child soldiers was a war crime. Palestinians children have been shot when crowds of them have surrounded and thrown rocks at Israeli soldiers, threatening their lives, or when they have thrown firebombs, or climbed on tanks(and the soldier is afraid they have a grenade). They are NOT targeted.

"universities were shut down with accusations of promoting anti-Semitism"
They often do.

"crops and infrastructure elements were being systematically destroyed with false accusations of "terrorist" were hiding there"
In the past some Palestinian fields have been cleared after they'd served as a shooting spot for gunmen. This is done in order to protect Israelis from being shot. It is not done "for fun". Infrastructure is not deliberately destroyed, unless it is necessary for a military operation (like to cut the electricity so there are no lights).


I hope you hear me out. I look forward to your reply.

__________________
Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

Sun Tzu

It was mentioned before that the muslims were digging for ancient artificacts. I'd be interested in more information on that. From what I know and personally witnessed with my own eyes its the otherway around. The real suprise is in what they are digging for and will stop at nothing to get. That probably deserves its own thread with images, but it has picture of other people as well as me in them so I dont know how I could get aorund that. Personally Im not a Christian and this man had enemies, but everything he states he was able to physicall show me with the exception of a few items. There are those that discredit him and I cant say i blame them I would too, they probably have never been anywhere near the places mentioned. I know why now. Not because of anything supernatural, but just the basic reactions of men that cant control themselves. It's good their digging in the wrong place; it a bad thing it just another lame excuse for them to propel their agenda.

My travels to Israel with him were halted when I went into the service, and he died before I got to see him again. I dont know if I believed everything he said, but he showed me things I skeptic larger than anyone cannot explain. So some of my doubts hang in grey area for now. He respected the Israelis, but there were instance he would be followed. I saw them scoping us when were at site miles away from anything.

www.wyattmuseum.com

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

crumbbum

This is pretty serious stuff- is this legit? Anyway, what I referred to before is not archaeological digging, but excavations done on the Temple Mount itself. Archaelogists have not been allowed anywhere near. Artificants are likely being destroyed, but no one has moved on it because it is such a sensitive location. They may be trying to get rid of the evidence of a Jewish temple on the site though.

Sun Tzu, do you have a reply for my previous post? The things you said in your last post were some serious allegations, and I was hoping we could address them through dialogue, claims like t that deserve to be examined more carefully.

Sun Tzu

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

crumbbum

Sun Tzu, I had found your previous postings to be civil, open-minded, and scholarly, but these last two I have found very disappointing. It doesn't seem like you read all of my previous posts in this thread, which were factal and historical in nature. You have not provided any evidence, short of links to Gush Shalom, Peace Now- which is funded in Israel by the European Union, and has a political agenda. You accuse me of selective attention, but I have dug quite deeply before into the accusation against Israel, I have read both sides.

It is you who seems to be unwilling to consider alternatives in this situation. There are many sides to an argument, but only one truth. You haven't provided any evidence, as I requested, to back up the staggering caims you have presented against the state of Israel and the IDF. I am also sickened by your apologies for the most barbaric attacks on civilians that the world has ever known (that is, until 9/11). Do you sit and ponder what the Hijackers motivation was on 9/11? Is there any motivation that could possibly excuse such barbarity? How is it any different in Israel? The people who do these things have the same ideology. You have resorted to labelling me, and have long since stopped considering my words from an intellectually open and honest perspective.

I am sorry to have to end the discussion this way, because I had thought that previously it had been very fruitful, and mutually educational. But you have resorted to spewing Palestinian propaganda, and have not backed it up whatsoever. You give graphic descriptions of dead Palestinian children, but you have not in any way established the reason this happens- that children are encouraged to go out on the front lines, and become "Shahids".

By your logic, the more brutal and sickening the terrorist attacks on innocent Israeli civilians are, the more guilty Israel is? At the Ma'alot school, when PLO terrorists took hostage, and killed 23 Israeli schoolchildren- the Israelis must have just recently done something really terrible to deserve that, right?

I don't have the patience to go through your claims scholastically, again, since I have already presented valid points that you have ignored. I will post a link here though- it is from the zionist organization of America- but that is not important. The video itself, and it's narrative bent are not even important. The footage I want you to see is that of an arab mob in Ramallah. Forget anything else about the video- shot by italian journalists, who later received death-threats. It was never publicized or broadcast anywhere in the Western media. Please watch it, and simply tell me what you see.

http://www.zoa.org/videos/IsraelInDanger1.ram (low speed)
http://www.zoa.org/videos/IsraelInDanger2.ram (high speed)

__________________
Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

crumbbum

Also, you were talking about pictures- here are some other pictures you never see in western media.

http://jewishworldreview.com/0503/te...003_05_18.php3

__________________
Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

seretogis

Wow, that turned ugly quickly.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Sun Tzu

I promise Label I'll keep it civil, I also have my trusted aluminom cap on that's donned in times I most need it.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Sun Tzu

I normally don’t do this: change or delete an entire post. Especially in the political forum, and especially the length and amount of time put into this particular post. I won’t rant to long, but being as we can’t delete posts like we used to I had to fill this space.

The previous post contained here was seen by the appropriate party. The energy used to create this post was from the negative aspect of me that always feels good when it’s doing the action; because it feels justified, but in the end I always come full circle, and see it differently. It would appear I didn’t read my signature well enough. I look at it every time I post, but it really didn't mean much until now.

I took this post down because its continued presence would serve no purpose, not that’s its original served one other than temporary gratification and that was not only fleeting but done with intent that only regresses me back to where I am now shaking my head smiling. The growth experienced from this unintended exercise makes it a worth while reflective moment. The only disappointment is looking from the outside I should have known. This is one lesson I seem to continue to repeat. Anyway the rest is best left to a journal entry. I think I filled enough space. I think those that were going to read this thread have already done so, in which case no one will even read this post.

Just remember the next time you get into heated discussion and start feeling animosity what is your reasons for making the post and is what your about to put up there going to change anything in the world to make it better or simply add to the madness.


<FONT COLOR="orange"><FONT SIZE=4>We are all climbing different paths through the mountain of life,
and we have all experienced much hardship and strife.
There are many paths through the mountain of life,
and some climbs can be felt like the point of a knife.
Some paths are short and others are long,
who can say which path is right or wrong?
The beauty of truth is that each path has its own song,
and if you listen closely you will find where you belong.
So climb your own path true and strong,
but respect all other truths for your way for them could be wrong."

-Dan Inosanto

</FONT COLOR>

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

crumbbum

Sun-Tzu, I did not mean to be disrespectful in my previous post. My initial feeling was that you were ignoring the human element of the attacks on Israelis, and the reasons that the military operations were necessary. Perhaps I responded too quickly- I did not mean any offense.

I do resent your labelling me- you have repeatedly emphasized that I will not accept any perspective that is not zionist, etc.- the thing is, I don't accept any perspective as fact, I simply look at the facts. I derive my opinions from the facts I have seen. So if you post facts, from any source, then I will obviously take that into consideration. I will not take seriously emotivist arguments or unsubstantiated stories. The facts are the facts, from whatever source they came. I would not discredit the source unless I had reason to believe that the facts were false. A good example of this is that list of quotes by Jews and Israelis you posted a ways back- I replied to it, they were all out of context, and some from nutcases that no one takes seriously. I have asked you to present facts, that is all. I am not as closed minded as you repeatedly accuse me of being. I have investigated a lot of pro-palestinians arguments I have seen, accusations against Israel, etc.

I don't know that I could say if I'm a zionist or not, since I am not an Israeli. I would say that I am pro-zionist- I support the right of the State of Israel to exist in security. I also support Palestinian statehood, and an end to their refugee status and foreign administration.

I get frustrated at a lot of your accusations against the state of Israel, when you haven't suggested any other course of action they could take that would end the terror and the attacks on their citizens. The terror has been relentless since the late 1800s, and in particular these last 2 years- if the Palestinians won't stop attacking Israeli civilians, I have yet to see any alternative Israel has but to militarily fight the terror (hence the strikes on terrorist leaders, curfews, raids, checkpoints, etc.). It is the responsibility of any government to defend the lives of its citizens, and you haven't presented what choice they have in this matter when they have no partner for peace.

I was very upset to see you regard Palestinian terrorist acts as protest. Murder of innocent civilians is not protest, or resistance. It is murder.

You mention the Palestinian children confronting tanks, and dare me to prove that they are forced to do so by terrorists. This is not what I was saying- they are in fact encouraged to do so by the society they live in, thus endangering themselves. I have seen on television the mothers of suicide bombers being extremely happy and proud of their Hamas sons. Palestinian television encouraging the children to "rise up and throw stones". By encouraging the children to participate in military confrontations, they put their lives on the line. This is the use of child soldiers, for propaganda purposes- few images from the conflict have "reached" people as much as Palestinian children throwing rocks. But it is sick and wrong that children are encouraged to get involved, and it is terrible that the world has not condemned them for this. Despite the appearance that such resistance is spontaneous, it is in fact culturally sanctioned and encouraged throughout Palestinian media, and in the schools.

The "human shield" phenomenon I am referring to is as follows- a gunman will be in an apartment with civilians in it. They will fire at Israeli soldiers from the window. The soldiers will shoot back, and the bullets will hit one or some of the people in that apartment. If you follow the news, the mainstream news, this is a very frequent phenomenon, and the leading cause of Palestinian civilian deaths. It is a war crime.

About 9/11, I never said that the Palestinians were directly connected to it. Arafat has distanced himself from Bin Laden so as not to be associated with him, and to be seen in the same category. However, there were widespread Palestinian celebrations on 9/11. The same types of celebrations take place following successful suicide bombings. Al-Qaeda has become active in the territories. Lastly, the terror from the Palestinians is inevitably connected because of it's nature- using the same tactics to achieve political goals. Both groups use suicide attacks, etc. They are using the same methods, and therefore when one is succesful, this encourages the other. To reward Palestinian terrorism strengthens Al-qaeda, just as rewarding (or retreating from battling) Al-Qaeda would strengthen Palestinian terror. It is the methods that are evil, that must be fought, so that they do not enjoy legitimacy. Such attacks on civilians will plague the world if they do not remain unsuccesful, and ineffective.

Sharon is not hoping to have to dismantle no settlements- he has already publicly expressed, to Israelis as well as everyone else that he would make concessions for real peace. I'm sure he hopes to minimize the uprooting of Israelis from their homes, for human interest reasons, and of course to minimize the security risk that a Palestinian state would be to Israel. What he has said is that he hopes that he is not pressured to dismantle any settlements, or to make any other concessions, until the terror stops, since this would only create more terror by rewarding it. He is absolutely right.


"Two ironic crumbbum quotes
No country can sit by when it's citizens are murdered en masse.
Also, remember that one man's terrorist is another's liberator"

I never said the second, and the first is true- Palestinian civilians are not being murdered en masse. Murder is deliberate, and Palestinian civilian deaths are not intentional by the Israeli. Most are the direct responsibility of the terror groups who put them in harms way, and of the PA which encourages children to confront soldiers.

I have met Christian Palestinians. At my old school, on "international symposium day", a Palestinian christian student gave a talk about the occupation, etc. There was no opposing viewpoint given, as there were no Israeli students. Afterwards, I was at my job on campus, in the school store, when he came in. I debated with him for 2 hours, and eventually caught him in enough lies that he stormed off. He wasn't a bad guy, in fact the store owner took a picture of us hugging , it was pretty funny, but I am well aware of what his perspectives were.

"I think there views are pretty valid because who better than them"
You posted a quote from www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org. What do you expect to prove by posting these sites? The groups are fringe movements. Also, in Israel there is free speech, and Jews agree on almost nothing as a whole. A number of chassidic Jewish sects don't support the establishment of Israel at all, though they are a small minority. Showing that some Jews disagree with the actions of the state of Israel proves nothing, and does not make them wrong. Again, I am not convinced by being shown that some people disagree with what I believe- I am convinced by facts. Rather than present links to the refusers, or Jews against the Occupation, why not post facts, and the reasons being such viewpoints? I am interested in getting to the truth, to the root of the problem, and what should best be done about it now. I am aware that some Jews/Israelis disagree, but this does not address my arguments.

It is important to note that under the Palestinian Authority, there is no free speech, and people are frequently publicly executed for "collaboration with Israel", and their bodies hung on lampposts as a warning, etc. If there were free speech, perhaps we would see more "Palestinians against Murder". Right now, any such views are silenced. The best we get is Abu Mazen, who favors ending terror as a tactical decision, but still supports killing Jews in settlements, like the man and his pregnant wife in Hebron the other day.

I also am pleased with Bush's handling of the Arab-Israeli conflict. By taking out Saddam (though this isn't the only reason it was done, obviously), he has ended the biggest financial and moral support of Palestinian terror (until recently the families of suicide bombers were paid $30,000 by Saddam). By isolating Arafat, and expecting the Palestinians to create transparent financial institutions, he is fighting the corruption that diverts the world's aid money from where it is supposed to go, humanitarian work. By insisting on performance based progression, he is making sure that terror ends before the Palestinians get anything, which fights terror as a worldwide phenomenon. I just hope he sticks to his guns, and resists pressure from his allies to lean on Israel for concessions before terror ends. By handling it in the way he has been, he is serving the best interest of both parties, unlike many previous "peace plans" which were one-sided and dangerous. The "road map" itself was worked out by Russia, the EU and UN, as well as the US, and as it is now it now realistic. I hope the points Bush made in his speech last June are stuck to.

You say that you want what is right for everyone, and I would say that I have to agree. I don't think it is right for anyone to reward terror, or to keep Palestinians living in a controlled, violent and corrupt society under despotic leadership. I think it is in their best interest as well as Israel's to end terror and to modernize, and to start living for life, instead of living to see "Palestine" replace Israel, which will never happen. I think the reform and change should take place, so that they don't have to live under the control of Israel, or depend on Israel financially. I don't think their civilians should be used as human shields, or their children sent out to die. There has been so much cultural brainwashing that it will be some time, I think, before these things can happen. To start the process, the PA should be destroyed and replaced, the media freed, the economy rebuilt (the Palestinian economy, once among the best in the Arab world, fell apart after Arafat came back- there was a 75% drop in average income after the occupation ended. Ironically, it was the Israeli occupation that led to the Palestinians being the best educated people in the arab world- Israel built them universities, and administered the schools. It was the occupation that created the conditions that could have led to real peace, with the Oslo accords. The hostility then was nothing like it is now.

If anything I'm saying in this post was misunderstood previously, I hope it has been clarified now. BTW, the Myths and Facts book is by no means my only source, I just happened to use it offhand for the numbers I stated in that one post. So please stop trying to smear me.

__________________
Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

Lebell

I always appreciate that from all parties, then I don't have to be a hard ass

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Sun Tzu

I open and formally apologize to crumbbum about listing a quote that I presented as his. I have edited since taking off the quote. I want crumbbum to know it was not intentional and will be more careful in the future when quoting his and other members statements.

To any that read this Crumbbum did not post "Also, remember that one man's terrorist is another's liberator." he was responding to another members use of the quote. I want crumbbum to be aware I'm not trying to smear him nor would I with any other member. I don’t feel focusing my energy to do such a thing would lead me in a positive direction. I will however defend my position with zero hesitation if ever accused of spreading propaganda as such is absurdity. I hope everyone has an excellent day

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

crumbbum

I want to say that I wasn't accusing you of intentionally spreading propaganda- just that it is similar to make claims if they aren't backed up with facts, or if they are misrepresented/out of context claims. I was certainly not accusing you of being a propagandist, as you seem to have come to your views independently, as have I. I only meant to request that statements in the future be based on fact- statements like "when's last time you did it?" in response to the part of my post concerning the motivations of suicide bombers are innappropriate and not constructive. I only say what I say because I have seen things that play on Palestinian TV, read transcripts of sermons given in mosques, and seen the way the bombers are glorified and made into heroes, their families paid, and I have seen what the Islamic groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad say about them, and these being their beliefs, what they indoctrinate the soon-to-be bombers with. It is not just speculation, I am not making anything I say up.

I never had any intention of insinuating that 9/11 wasn't painful for you- I am deeply sorry I have inadvertently offended you, or hit any nerves with subject. It was never my intention to offend you. I was, however, trying to point out that the ideology, extremist Islam, that motivated the hijackers is the same that motivates Palestinian suicide bombers, and that there is a serious connection between the parties, in terms of the war on terrorism. Because they share the same ideology and methods, fighting one is fighting the other, even if their goals are different (they actually share the same goals, but have chosen different targets- the Palestinian terror groups want the "West", Israel, off "arab land", and Osama wants the same with regard to Saudi Arabia, "Palestine", and the eventual destruction of the West. Part of fundamentalist Islamic doctrine is the idea that Islam must dominate the whole world. That is why there have been terror attacks against all western interests. Any Islamic terrorist wants the destruction of all non-Islamic countries, and Islam to dominate the world. Palestinian terrorism is mostly by Islamic groups, except for groups like Fatah, which is secular- but many ideas are shared, obviously since Arafat calls for Jihad. It is much like the fact that although Saddam was a secular Baathist, he invoked Islam to get people to fight for him.

Didn't mean to accuse you, Sun-Tzu, only to explain that you are in fact mistaken if you believe there is no connection, or that if appeasing one will not strengthen the other. I say this as an American, who lives in New York City, who does not want another 9/11, or to be blown up somehow or die in a bio-terror attack.

__________________
Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

Sun Tzu

Fair enough crumbbum happy posting to you, and as Spock has immortalized Live long and prosper.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

crumbbum

BTW Sun-Tzu, thank you for your apology about misquoting me. I know it was unintentional, and I do not hold it against you. Like I said above, I am sorry for getting angry, and very sorry if I hurt your feelings or communicated any disrespect, particularly about 9/11. I am sorry for your loss. I didn't lose anyone close to me, but friends of mine did. I don't want any political discussion on these boards to become personal or hurtful to anyone, and I am very sorry if I unintentionally did either. I hope you can accept my apology as well.

__________________
Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

George W Bush

Whoa what the heck went on in this post. Whats that poem all about Sun Tzu? Not that its bad, who is Dan Inisinto?

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"Rarely is the question asked: is our children learning"

"You teach a child to read and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test."

toxic515

Crumbbum and Sun Tzu: I am impressed and currently rather entertained at the discussion. I question one item, which appears to be left largely unaddressed here. While a huge amount of the discussion centers on moral and ethical "right", I question certain moral and ethical rights to the existance of the governments themselves.

items to be considered...

Isreal and the Palestinians are NOT morally equal. Israel is the only free country in a region dominated by Arab monarchies, theocracies and dictatorships. It is only the citizens of Israel - Arabs and Jews alike - who enjoy the right to express their views, to criticize their government, to form political parties, to publish private newspapers, to hold free elections. When Arab authorities deny the most basic freedoms to their own people, it is obscene for them to start claiming that Israel is violating the Palestinians' rights. All Arab citizens who are genuinely concerned with human rights should, as their very first action, seek to oust their own despotic rulers and adopt the type of free society that characterizes Israel.

This is not about Muslims or Arabs per-se, but about the governments involved. Since its founding, Israel has been the victim. Since its founding in 1948, Israel has had to fight five wars - all in self-defense - against 22 hostile Arab dictatorships, and has been repeatedly attacked by Palestinian terrorists. Palestinians are responsible for the kidnapping and murder of Israeli schoolchildren, the hijacking of airliners and the car bombings and death-squad killings of thousands of Israeli, American, Lebanese and Palestinian civilians. Today they ardently sponsor such terror groups as Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the al Aksa Brigade.

This is not an ethnic battle between Jews and Arabs, but a moral battle between those who value the individual's right to be free and those who don't. Those Arabs who value individual freedom are enemies of the Arafat regime and deserve to be embraced by Israel; those Jews who do not value individual freedom deserve to be condemned by Israel.

_The land Israel is "occupying" was captured in a war initiated by its Arab neighbors. Like any victim of aggression, Israel has a moral right to control as much land as is necessary to safeguard itself against attack. The Palestinians want to annihilate Israel, while Israel wants simply to be left alone. If there is a moral failing on Israel's part, it consists of its reluctance to take stronger military measures. If it is right for America to bomb al-Qaeda strongholds in Afghanistan (it is) then it is equally justifiable for Israel to bomb the terrorist strongholds in the occupied territories.

If Isreal caves to the pressure from the Palestinians, The United States and a great deal of the rest of the world, it is sacrificing its basic right to exist. Morally and militarily, Israel is America's frontline in the war on terrorism. If America is swayed by Palestine's latest empty rhetoric, and allows them to continue threatening Israel, our own campaign against terrorism becomes hypocrisy and will, ultimately, fail.

Isreal alone has the right to establish settlements in these areas. Not on some ethnic or religious heritage basis, but based on secular, rational principal. ONly a state based on political and economic freedom has moral legitimacy. There simply is no "right" to establish a dictatorship. Isrealis earned ownership to the land by developing it. THey worked unclaimed land, or purchased it from the owners. They developed industry, libraries, hospitals, and more. They introduced the concept of INDIVIDUAL rights. Arabs that abandoned their land to join a military crusade against Isreal forfeit all right to the property. Any Arabs who were forcibly evicted may press their claims in the courts of Isreal, which, unlike the Arab autocracies, has an independent, objective judiciary... one that recognizes the principal of property rights.

Palestinians are not "freedom fighters". As I understand it, the Palestinians want a state, not to secure their freedom, but to perpetuate the dictatorial theocratic reign of Arafat's designed Palestinian Authority. Palestinian "police" brutally expropriate property and silence opposing viewpoints by shutting down radio and TV stations. They systematically arrest, torture and murder peaceful dissenters. To call the militant Palestinians "freedom fighters" - when they support the subjugation of their own people, when they deliberately murder children in the streets or gleefully praise such depravity - is a mind-numbing perversion.

A Palestinian state, as it stands, would be a launching pad and a training ground for terrorist organizations targeting, not only Israel, but the United States. Forcing Israelis to accept a Palestinian state under Arafat or his current cronies would be like forcing Americans to accept a state the size of Mexico, 12 miles from New York City, ruled by Osama bin Laden. As long as the Palestinians sanction aggression, they should not be permitted their own state.

Admittedly, I am not so much posting "fact" here as philosophy, and I'll accept criticism as such, but the question of who hurt whom the most here appears irrelevant, if one applies rational objective principals to the issue.

Peace to you all.

__________________
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies
like a banana.

crumbbum

Wow.... touche my friend.

__________________
Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

toxic515

It'd be more impressive if I could spell Israel wouldn't it... Damn, I wish this thing had a spell check.....

__________________
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies
like a banana.