Sun-Tzu, I did not mean to be disrespectful in my previous post. My initial feeling was that you were ignoring the human element of the attacks on Israelis, and the reasons that the military operations were necessary. Perhaps I responded too quickly- I did not mean any offense.
I do resent your labelling me- you have repeatedly emphasized that I will not accept any perspective that is not zionist, etc.- the thing is, I don't accept any perspective as fact, I simply look at the facts. I derive my opinions from the facts I have seen. So if you post facts, from any source, then I will obviously take that into consideration. I will not take seriously emotivist arguments or unsubstantiated stories. The facts are the facts, from whatever source they came. I would not discredit the source unless I had reason to believe that the facts were false. A good example of this is that list of quotes by Jews and Israelis you posted a ways back- I replied to it, they were all out of context, and some from nutcases that no one takes seriously. I have asked you to present facts, that is all. I am not as closed minded as you repeatedly accuse me of being. I have investigated a lot of pro-palestinians arguments I have seen, accusations against Israel, etc.
I don't know that I could say if I'm a zionist or not, since I am not an Israeli. I would say that I am pro-zionist- I support the right of the State of Israel to exist in security. I also support Palestinian statehood, and an end to their refugee status and foreign administration.
I get frustrated at a lot of your accusations against the state of Israel, when you haven't suggested any other course of action they could take that would end the terror and the attacks on their citizens. The terror has been relentless since the late 1800s, and in particular these last 2 years- if the Palestinians won't stop attacking Israeli civilians, I have yet to see any alternative Israel has but to militarily fight the terror (hence the strikes on terrorist leaders, curfews, raids, checkpoints, etc.). It is the responsibility of any government to defend the lives of its citizens, and you haven't presented what choice they have in this matter when they have no partner for peace.
I was very upset to see you regard Palestinian terrorist acts as protest. Murder of innocent civilians is not protest, or resistance. It is murder.
You mention the Palestinian children confronting tanks, and dare me to prove that they are forced to do so by terrorists. This is not what I was saying- they are in fact encouraged to do so by the society they live in, thus endangering themselves. I have seen on television the mothers of suicide bombers being extremely happy and proud of their Hamas sons. Palestinian television encouraging the children to "rise up and throw stones". By encouraging the children to participate in military confrontations, they put their lives on the line. This is the use of child soldiers, for propaganda purposes- few images from the conflict have "reached" people as much as Palestinian children throwing rocks. But it is sick and wrong that children are encouraged to get involved, and it is terrible that the world has not condemned them for this. Despite the appearance that such resistance is spontaneous, it is in fact culturally sanctioned and encouraged throughout Palestinian media, and in the schools.
The "human shield" phenomenon I am referring to is as follows- a gunman will be in an apartment with civilians in it. They will fire at Israeli soldiers from the window. The soldiers will shoot back, and the bullets will hit one or some of the people in that apartment. If you follow the news, the mainstream news, this is a very frequent phenomenon, and the leading cause of Palestinian civilian deaths. It is a war crime.
About 9/11, I never said that the Palestinians were directly connected to it. Arafat has distanced himself from Bin Laden so as not to be associated with him, and to be seen in the same category. However, there were widespread Palestinian celebrations on 9/11. The same types of celebrations take place following successful suicide bombings. Al-Qaeda has become active in the territories. Lastly, the terror from the Palestinians is inevitably connected because of it's nature- using the same tactics to achieve political goals. Both groups use suicide attacks, etc. They are using the same methods, and therefore when one is succesful, this encourages the other. To reward Palestinian terrorism strengthens Al-qaeda, just as rewarding (or retreating from battling) Al-Qaeda would strengthen Palestinian terror. It is the methods that are evil, that must be fought, so that they do not enjoy legitimacy. Such attacks on civilians will plague the world if they do not remain unsuccesful, and ineffective.
Sharon is not hoping to have to dismantle no settlements- he has already publicly expressed, to Israelis as well as everyone else that he would make concessions for real peace. I'm sure he hopes to minimize the uprooting of Israelis from their homes, for human interest reasons, and of course to minimize the security risk that a Palestinian state would be to Israel. What he has said is that he hopes that he is not pressured to dismantle any settlements, or to make any other concessions, until the terror stops, since this would only create more terror by rewarding it. He is absolutely right.
"Two ironic crumbbum quotes
No country can sit by when it's citizens are murdered en masse.
Also, remember that one man's terrorist is another's liberator"
I never said the second, and the first is true- Palestinian civilians are not being murdered en masse. Murder is deliberate, and Palestinian civilian deaths are not intentional by the Israeli. Most are the direct responsibility of the terror groups who put them in harms way, and of the PA which encourages children to confront soldiers.
I have met Christian Palestinians. At my old school, on "international symposium day", a Palestinian christian student gave a talk about the occupation, etc. There was no opposing viewpoint given, as there were no Israeli students. Afterwards, I was at my job on campus, in the school store, when he came in. I debated with him for 2 hours, and eventually caught him in enough lies that he stormed off. He wasn't a bad guy, in fact the store owner took a picture of us hugging
, it was pretty funny, but I am well aware of what his perspectives were.
"I think there views are pretty valid because who better than them"
You posted a quote from
www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org. What do you expect to prove by posting these sites? The groups are fringe movements. Also, in Israel there is free speech, and Jews agree on almost nothing as a whole. A number of chassidic Jewish sects don't support the establishment of Israel at all, though they are a small minority. Showing that some Jews disagree with the actions of the state of Israel proves nothing, and does not make them wrong. Again, I am not convinced by being shown that some people disagree with what I believe- I am convinced by facts. Rather than present links to the refusers, or Jews against the Occupation, why not post facts, and the reasons being such viewpoints? I am interested in getting to the truth, to the root of the problem, and what should best be done about it now. I am aware that some Jews/Israelis disagree, but this does not address my arguments.
It is important to note that under the Palestinian Authority, there is no free speech, and people are frequently publicly executed for "collaboration with Israel", and their bodies hung on lampposts as a warning, etc. If there were free speech, perhaps we would see more "Palestinians against Murder". Right now, any such views are silenced. The best we get is Abu Mazen, who favors ending terror as a tactical decision, but still supports killing Jews in settlements, like the man and his pregnant wife in Hebron the other day.
I also am pleased with Bush's handling of the Arab-Israeli conflict. By taking out Saddam (though this isn't the only reason it was done, obviously), he has ended the biggest financial and moral support of Palestinian terror (until recently the families of suicide bombers were paid $30,000 by Saddam). By isolating Arafat, and expecting the Palestinians to create transparent financial institutions, he is fighting the corruption that diverts the world's aid money from where it is supposed to go, humanitarian work. By insisting on performance based progression, he is making sure that terror ends before the Palestinians get anything, which fights terror as a worldwide phenomenon. I just hope he sticks to his guns, and resists pressure from his allies to lean on Israel for concessions before terror ends. By handling it in the way he has been, he is serving the best interest of both parties, unlike many previous "peace plans" which were one-sided and dangerous. The "road map" itself was worked out by Russia, the EU and UN, as well as the US, and as it is now it now realistic. I hope the points Bush made in his speech last June are stuck to.
You say that you want what is right for everyone, and I would say that I have to agree. I don't think it is right for anyone to reward terror, or to keep Palestinians living in a controlled, violent and corrupt society under despotic leadership. I think it is in their best interest as well as Israel's to end terror and to modernize, and to start living for life, instead of living to see "Palestine" replace Israel, which will never happen. I think the reform and change should take place, so that they don't have to live under the control of Israel, or depend on Israel financially. I don't think their civilians should be used as human shields, or their children sent out to die. There has been so much cultural brainwashing that it will be some time, I think, before these things can happen. To start the process, the PA should be destroyed and replaced, the media freed, the economy rebuilt (the Palestinian economy, once among the best in the Arab world, fell apart after Arafat came back- there was a 75% drop in average income after the occupation ended. Ironically, it was the Israeli occupation that led to the Palestinians being the best educated people in the arab world- Israel built them universities, and administered the schools. It was the occupation that created the conditions that could have led to real peace, with the Oslo accords. The hostility then was nothing like it is now.
If anything I'm saying in this post was misunderstood previously, I hope it has been clarified now. BTW, the Myths and Facts book is by no means my only source, I just happened to use it offhand for the numbers I stated in that one post. So please stop trying to smear me.