Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - Middle East Peace Plan and the Settlements

toxic515 · 05-22-2003, 03:42 PM

Crumbbum and Sun Tzu: I am impressed and currently rather entertained at the discussion. I question one item, which appears to be left largely unaddressed here. While a huge amount of the discussion centers on moral and ethical "right", I question certain moral and ethical rights to the existance of the governments themselves.

items to be considered...

Isreal and the Palestinians are NOT morally equal. Israel is the only free country in a region dominated by Arab monarchies, theocracies and dictatorships. It is only the citizens of Israel - Arabs and Jews alike - who enjoy the right to express their views, to criticize their government, to form political parties, to publish private newspapers, to hold free elections. When Arab authorities deny the most basic freedoms to their own people, it is obscene for them to start claiming that Israel is violating the Palestinians' rights. All Arab citizens who are genuinely concerned with human rights should, as their very first action, seek to oust their own despotic rulers and adopt the type of free society that characterizes Israel.

This is not about Muslims or Arabs per-se, but about the governments involved. Since its founding, Israel has been the victim. Since its founding in 1948, Israel has had to fight five wars - all in self-defense - against 22 hostile Arab dictatorships, and has been repeatedly attacked by Palestinian terrorists. Palestinians are responsible for the kidnapping and murder of Israeli schoolchildren, the hijacking of airliners and the car bombings and death-squad killings of thousands of Israeli, American, Lebanese and Palestinian civilians. Today they ardently sponsor such terror groups as Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the al Aksa Brigade.

This is not an ethnic battle between Jews and Arabs, but a moral battle between those who value the individual's right to be free and those who don't. Those Arabs who value individual freedom are enemies of the Arafat regime and deserve to be embraced by Israel; those Jews who do not value individual freedom deserve to be condemned by Israel.

_The land Israel is "occupying" was captured in a war initiated by its Arab neighbors. Like any victim of aggression, Israel has a moral right to control as much land as is necessary to safeguard itself against attack. The Palestinians want to annihilate Israel, while Israel wants simply to be left alone. If there is a moral failing on Israel's part, it consists of its reluctance to take stronger military measures. If it is right for America to bomb al-Qaeda strongholds in Afghanistan (it is) then it is equally justifiable for Israel to bomb the terrorist strongholds in the occupied territories.

If Isreal caves to the pressure from the Palestinians, The United States and a great deal of the rest of the world, it is sacrificing its basic right to exist. Morally and militarily, Israel is America's frontline in the war on terrorism. If America is swayed by Palestine's latest empty rhetoric, and allows them to continue threatening Israel, our own campaign against terrorism becomes hypocrisy and will, ultimately, fail.

Isreal alone has the right to establish settlements in these areas. Not on some ethnic or religious heritage basis, but based on secular, rational principal. ONly a state based on political and economic freedom has moral legitimacy. There simply is no "right" to establish a dictatorship. Isrealis earned ownership to the land by developing it. THey worked unclaimed land, or purchased it from the owners. They developed industry, libraries, hospitals, and more. They introduced the concept of INDIVIDUAL rights. Arabs that abandoned their land to join a military crusade against Isreal forfeit all right to the property. Any Arabs who were forcibly evicted may press their claims in the courts of Isreal, which, unlike the Arab autocracies, has an independent, objective judiciary... one that recognizes the principal of property rights.

Palestinians are not "freedom fighters". As I understand it, the Palestinians want a state, not to secure their freedom, but to perpetuate the dictatorial theocratic reign of Arafat's designed Palestinian Authority. Palestinian "police" brutally expropriate property and silence opposing viewpoints by shutting down radio and TV stations. They systematically arrest, torture and murder peaceful dissenters. To call the militant Palestinians "freedom fighters" - when they support the subjugation of their own people, when they deliberately murder children in the streets or gleefully praise such depravity - is a mind-numbing perversion.

A Palestinian state, as it stands, would be a launching pad and a training ground for terrorist organizations targeting, not only Israel, but the United States. Forcing Israelis to accept a Palestinian state under Arafat or his current cronies would be like forcing Americans to accept a state the size of Mexico, 12 miles from New York City, ruled by Osama bin Laden. As long as the Palestinians sanction aggression, they should not be permitted their own state.

Admittedly, I am not so much posting "fact" here as philosophy, and I'll accept criticism as such, but the question of who hurt whom the most here appears irrelevant, if one applies rational objective principals to the issue.

Peace to you all.

05-22-2003, 03:42 PM	#64 (permalink)
toxic515 Addict Location: Texas	Crumbbum and Sun Tzu: I am impressed and currently rather entertained at the discussion. I question one item, which appears to be left largely unaddressed here. While a huge amount of the discussion centers on moral and ethical "right", I question certain moral and ethical rights to the existance of the governments themselves. items to be considered... Isreal and the Palestinians are NOT morally equal. Israel is the only free country in a region dominated by Arab monarchies, theocracies and dictatorships. It is only the citizens of Israel - Arabs and Jews alike - who enjoy the right to express their views, to criticize their government, to form political parties, to publish private newspapers, to hold free elections. When Arab authorities deny the most basic freedoms to their own people, it is obscene for them to start claiming that Israel is violating the Palestinians' rights. All Arab citizens who are genuinely concerned with human rights should, as their very first action, seek to oust their own despotic rulers and adopt the type of free society that characterizes Israel. This is not about Muslims or Arabs per-se, but about the governments involved. Since its founding, Israel has been the victim. Since its founding in 1948, Israel has had to fight five wars - all in self-defense - against 22 hostile Arab dictatorships, and has been repeatedly attacked by Palestinian terrorists. Palestinians are responsible for the kidnapping and murder of Israeli schoolchildren, the hijacking of airliners and the car bombings and death-squad killings of thousands of Israeli, American, Lebanese and Palestinian civilians. Today they ardently sponsor such terror groups as Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the al Aksa Brigade. This is not an ethnic battle between Jews and Arabs, but a moral battle between those who value the individual's right to be free and those who don't. Those Arabs who value individual freedom are enemies of the Arafat regime and deserve to be embraced by Israel; those Jews who do not value individual freedom deserve to be condemned by Israel. _The land Israel is "occupying" was captured in a war initiated by its Arab neighbors. Like any victim of aggression, Israel has a moral right to control as much land as is necessary to safeguard itself against attack. The Palestinians want to annihilate Israel, while Israel wants simply to be left alone. If there is a moral failing on Israel's part, it consists of its reluctance to take stronger military measures. If it is right for America to bomb al-Qaeda strongholds in Afghanistan (it is) then it is equally justifiable for Israel to bomb the terrorist strongholds in the occupied territories. If Isreal caves to the pressure from the Palestinians, The United States and a great deal of the rest of the world, it is sacrificing its basic right to exist. Morally and militarily, Israel is America's frontline in the war on terrorism. If America is swayed by Palestine's latest empty rhetoric, and allows them to continue threatening Israel, our own campaign against terrorism becomes hypocrisy and will, ultimately, fail. Isreal alone has the right to establish settlements in these areas. Not on some ethnic or religious heritage basis, but based on secular, rational principal. ONly a state based on political and economic freedom has moral legitimacy. There simply is no "right" to establish a dictatorship. Isrealis earned ownership to the land by developing it. THey worked unclaimed land, or purchased it from the owners. They developed industry, libraries, hospitals, and more. They introduced the concept of INDIVIDUAL rights. Arabs that abandoned their land to join a military crusade against Isreal forfeit all right to the property. Any Arabs who were forcibly evicted may press their claims in the courts of Isreal, which, unlike the Arab autocracies, has an independent, objective judiciary... one that recognizes the principal of property rights. Palestinians are not "freedom fighters". As I understand it, the Palestinians want a state, not to secure their freedom, but to perpetuate the dictatorial theocratic reign of Arafat's designed Palestinian Authority. Palestinian "police" brutally expropriate property and silence opposing viewpoints by shutting down radio and TV stations. They systematically arrest, torture and murder peaceful dissenters. To call the militant Palestinians "freedom fighters" - when they support the subjugation of their own people, when they deliberately murder children in the streets or gleefully praise such depravity - is a mind-numbing perversion. A Palestinian state, as it stands, would be a launching pad and a training ground for terrorist organizations targeting, not only Israel, but the United States. Forcing Israelis to accept a Palestinian state under Arafat or his current cronies would be like forcing Americans to accept a state the size of Mexico, 12 miles from New York City, ruled by Osama bin Laden. As long as the Palestinians sanction aggression, they should not be permitted their own state. Admittedly, I am not so much posting "fact" here as philosophy, and I'll accept criticism as such, but the question of who hurt whom the most here appears irrelevant, if one applies rational objective principals to the issue. Peace to you all. __________________ Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.