crumbbum

I'm sorry to hear about your fight with your uncle, Sun Tzu. I agree with everything you're saying. As complicated and hairy as these things are, I also think they affect all of us. I didn't realize you were in the military. What do you do for a living now?

About the arab-israeli conflict, like I said in my response to that list of quotes you posted, I don't necessarily blame the Palestinians themselves for hating the Israelis. It is not that simple- it must be understood that these people have been, and are being used as political pawns, and have been manipulated and brainwashed greatly. As far as the religious element, and the belief that they will go to paradise, I am afraid that that is true. Desperation leads to suicide alone in a bedroom- it is only hate that can lead someone to strap a bomb to themself, packed with nail and screw and rat poison, and then to go detonate amidst a crowd of women and children.

I by no means think that the Palestinians should just be indefinitely militarily crushed- I think a solution needs to be found, that will address the humanitarian need on both sides to end the violence, as well as the miserable conditions in the territories. The problem is that until Palestinian violence stops, there is no way to implement any type of peace. Israel can't make concessions while it is under attack. I think that the only reason we are still seeing terror is because it has gotten the Palestinians gains in the past, and still does, with most of the world now pushing for Israeli concessions in the Road map, without an end to terror.

I think peace needs to be made, but I don't think that it can be until there is a fundamental change on the Palestinian side. I don't see how it is in Israel's power right now to create peace, while the attacks against their citizens continues.
I am hoping that the Israelis take the opportunity to get rid of Arafat- he has been dispatching terrorists, and is impeding Mazen from stopping the violence. The thing is though, I fear that even if the violence stops, and a Palestinian state is set up in the West Bank, that it will only make war inevitable- I don't see how such a state could have sovereignty, and still not be a threat. It would seem that if made today, it would become a terror state, and at best a forward position for any future arab attack on Israel. I don't think it will lead to peace. I also don't think any concessions while terror continues will lead to peace- it will only embolden the terrorists by sending the message that such methods are effective.

I am also afraid that 9/11 and Palestinian terror are very much connected. The Palestinians danced in the streets on 9/11. Al-Qaeda is active in the Palestinian territories, and it was the PLO that really started the phenomenon of airplane hijackings. The terrorist networks are all linked to some extent. They are not exactly the same, but they are still connected- and without question, they watch the other. If the message is sent that terror works against Israel, with the aquiescence of the West, then this support will also embolden terrorism against the west. It is indeed the same fight. The Palestinian cause was concocted by the Arab countries after their defeats by Israel- it was they who funded and set up the PLO. I am not saying that the Palestinians themselves realize this- they, I'm sure, believe in their heart that Israel has caused all of their problems, and is the real enemy.

I used to do Peer counseling in high school, among other things, and I've found that certain principles hold true in both macro-and micro(like interpersonal) situations. One of them, is that there is no true peace without justice, and truth. Until the truth has been accounted for, any "peace" will only be fragile and temporary. I can't see how real peace will ever come until the terror stops, permanently, until the responsibility is assigned where it belongs for the plight of the Palestinians today, until the Jewish refugees are accounted for, until the middle east modernizes, and until Palestinian society has been deprogrammed from the cult of death and violence it has become. Children are encouraged to go out on the front lines to throw rocks (and firebombs) at soldiers- this is done cynically and deliberately, on Palestinian Authority Television. I think a lot of people miss the fact that this has been a media war.

Anyway Sun-Tzu, I am sorry you are aren't feeling well, you seem like a very sensitive person, and I really admire your struggling see the truth in this situation, and to maintain intellectual honesty, examining both sides. It wears one down, I know- I didn't have an opinion when I first started studying the topic, about 2 years ago. I was actually in a Political Science class where the teacher happened to specialize in this area- she was strongly pro-palestinian. Not knowing any better, and respecting her authority, I initially accepted what she said. I became aware though, that rather than teach the different perspectives on the conflict, and allow students to decide for themselves, that she would instead teach only a certain viewpoint as fact. As it turned out, I caught in a few lies, and becoming kind of pissed off, I started learning more about this, just so that I would know better.

I would debate with her all the time. The defining moment for me was after a class that was spent discussing the issue of torture. Unlike most countries, Israel has legalized torture- certain non-lethal methods. The methods they use I believe are "shaking", where an interrogator may violently shake the suspect, they have one method where they make the suspect squat for a long period of time. The last that I'm aware of is that they sometimes place foul-smelling bags over the heads of prisoners. Obviously, this is a pretty ugly thing to have to do. Still, it is legal, and therefore regulated, and non-lethal. In most countries torture is illegal, but is practiced anyway, and with far more inhumane methods. In arab countries people are frequently electrocuted, nials are pulled out, fingers cut off, etc.

So anyway, after class I am arguin with her. She had been saying in class how wrong it was for Israel to use torture, how it violated the Geneva conventions, etc. So I asked if she meant, that in the situation where the Israeli police have a suspect, that may or may not know, but they have reason to believe knows, about a bombing that will soon take place that would kill 10 innocent people, that it would be morally wrong to use non-lethal torture, if that was the only way to get the information? She replied that not only was it wrong, but that I sounded dangerously similar to people that have advocated genocide. Genocide! With that, she walked away, ending the conversation and not allowing me to respond. It was then that I knew she was full of shit. I was always under the impression that human rights legislation was done for the purpose, above all else, of preserving human life. I was disgusted that she had labeled me and avoided my question.

Anyway, you should see some of the papers I initially wrote for the class. I also have examined both sides, I have read a number of pro-palestinian sites, and examined their claims. As far as I have so far found, the truth seems to be on the side of the Israelis. And like Seretogis said above, very simply, the Palestinians have repeatedly used absolutely barbaric and inhuman methods, and seem to relish the human suffering of the Israelis. I have not seen any such joy from Israelis at any of the measures they have to take in order to stop the attacks on them, or when innocent Palestinians are killed in the course of fighting.

In addition to what I said above about the suicide bombers, it must be noted that it is NOT desperation that drives this. There have been many very desperate people in the history of the world, and they did not resort to such barbarity. Even in the Muslim world, there are peoples that suffer far more than the palestinians do. Just look at Sudan, for one example. The bombers families, until recently, were rewarded with $25,000 checks from Saddam Hussein. They also received, and I assume still do receive, money from Saudi Arabia and the PA, though it is far less than what came from Iraq. In that part of the world, that is serious money, more than the average Palestinian will see in many years. The suicide bombers, or Shahids, martyrs, are glamorized and idolized by the Palestinian population. They are heroes- streets are named after them, posters of them are everywhere, kids even collect and trade necklaces with the pictures of them on them. It is a cultural phenomenon- 70% of the Palestinians support the bombings. And of course, there is the religious element as well. It should also be said that the bombers are conditioned mentally by the terror groups, by their "handlers"- it is not a spontaneous undertaking.

These people have been brainwashed to the point where I don't see how culturally, there is any opening for peace. They have been conditioned with hatred and rejection and violence. I don't see how peace can be made until there has been some "de-programming". Ironically, before Oslo Israelis would regularly visit Arab villages, and vice versa. Palestinians would work in Israel. There were friendships between the peoples, and even mixed communities. It was, also ironically, the fact that during the years of occupation, from 1967 to 1993, Israel ran the schools in the territories. This is what made it possible to talk peace. Now the schools teach hatred, not co-existence. It will take a long time to undo the damage from all of this, and to create the conditions for peace again. I don't think there are any easy solutions, and that is why I think the Roadmap is doomed to failure. I think pressing Israel for concessions to a crazed and hate-filled enemy is morally wrong and dangerous to the whole world.

And of course, I just wonder pragmatically that even if there were a chance of peace, how 2 states could viably exist west of the Jordan. As Daniel Pipes points out in the article he wrote (I posted the link before), it is almost inevitable that this would result in another war, that would lead to the destruction of either Israel of the new state of Palestine. I think the Palestinians should have their state, but when it comes down to it I do not see any truly compelling reason that it needs to be west of the Jordan. There is more than enough available land in the vast arab world for such a state, that no one would miss, that would not cause a war. Basically, my interest in this is, among other things, that I have relatives in Israel (which I didn't know until not too long ago), and I would like them to live. I would also like to see the Palestinians live, in a normal society, and not be held captive in those squallid camps, or to have to live under occupation. I would like one day to see a just world. It would just seem to me that the best way to diffuse this conflict would be to give them a state elsewhere, or to live peacefully but acknowledge Israeli sovereignty. (Oslo was an attempt to give the Palestinians autonomy and self-determination- if it didn't lead to endless terrorism, there is certainly nothing wrong with that. They should be able to run their own lives). You have posted a link to the Israeli reservists that refuse to serve in the territories. Where are the Palestinians that condemn the murder of Israelis? I don't know if there have been any, but I do know that many Palestinians have been murdered by the Palestinians Authority, for the "crime" of collaborating with Israel. If any Palestinians ever wanted peace, they have likely been assassinated.

Anyway, I want you to know Sun-Tzu that from our dialogue I have a lot of respect for you. I'm sorry you're having a hard time, and I hope it gets better soon. I remember reading once a Jewish saying that "An argument for the sake of heaven will last". What this means, I think, is that when the mutual goal is to understand the truth, that any dispute will in the end be a fruitful one, that will hopefully in the end lead its participants closer to real understanding, if not perfect understanding. Your thoughtful posts have led me to deepen my thoughts about this, and I have really enjoyed the exchange. I hope the weariness it sounds like you are experiencing eases up soon. I hope this exchange has not contributed to it- I have found it stimulating and thought-provoking. Respect and best wishes.

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Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.