Lebell

...and not pictures of Shuttle astronauts.

http://home.wi.rr.com/davef/iraq.htm

Anyway, I would normally link these, but since it is a soldier's private site and not a media outlet with virtually unlimited bandwidth, I didn't want to bring down his server with too much extra traffic.

So if you want to see what the soldiers see and not what an editor in New York or LA thinks will sell papers, go take a look.

WARNING!

Some pics are VERY VERY graphic.

NOT for the weak of stomach!

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

tecoyah

And yet, we wonder why we are so hated by these people. As I tried to be objective while looking at this, The dead and maimed children flipped a switch with me. I now completely understand why the administration has tried to ban as much private information from getting out, they are afraid.
If everyone could see this , I honestly think public opinion would dramatically change, and support for this war would diminish quickly. Yes, I realize war is hell, and innocent people die, but I guarantee you if these were my children, I would lose it and take out as many of the people who did this as I possibly could. When it is compounded by hundreds(or thousands) we dont actually know how many. You will have a population of armed, revenge seeking parents, trying their damndest to blow you away.
Kind of like what we have there now.

I feel very badly for Joe soldier, fighting civilians on a daily basis, and probably well aware that they are pissed off for good reason. What a terrible position to be in.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Schwan

It's very graphic, but it shows what war is all about. If a governemnt is responsible enough to send its troops out to war, regardless of the reasons behind it, it should also be responsible enough not to ban the images portraying the damages caused by it. Very sad.

Sparhawk

I found some humor in here, don't know if you all caught it:

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

absorbentishe

The pictures are pretty moving. The photo of just the leg, yeow... But war is war, and we did what we can to elimate civilians being injured/killed, but in the end, there are still innocent lives taken. I'm glad I saw them.

matthew330

Tecoyah, I'm amazed at how stupid and naieve you think Americans are. Just to keep it short and sweet, cause there's so much i wanna say, these pictures did NOTHING to sway my opinion of the war.

And trust me - the American soldier over there, isn't thinking when they're getting attacked by these insurgents - "oh these poor fellas, they've gone through so much and we've put them through so much, i feel there pain."

Iraq is a huge frickin place, and these continue to be a small minority.

Arc101

Yes and it was even more of a minority who died on 9/11 - and yet people still want revenge for this. Think about it, everyone in Iraq is affected by these deaths, they know that their children could be next. Is it any wonder that they want revenge against those they see responsible. Also they know that despite the 1000's of innocent people that have been killed by the coalition, there is no chance of ever holding anyone to account over those deaths.

feelgood

One must wonder why the hell USA invaded Iraq in the first place anyways...

Sure WMD was the main reason but have they found any? Nope.

The cost of the war outweight the cost of freedom

__________________
Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

matthew330

I would bet that the unfortunate number of innocent Iraqi's that have been killed by the coalition pales in comparison to the number that Saddam's government killed, tortured, raped, etc etc. In fact, I think it's safe to say, we've saved a shitload of innocent lives.

matthew330

One must wonder? I'm done wondering. 10 years of ignoring UN resolutions, daily shooting at our planes patrolling no fly zones, etc etc.

irateplatypus

1000s of innocent dead?... you're dreaming. even if that were true, the # of innocent tragically caught in the action has been multiplied many times over by the opposition's cowardice. no uniforms, giving guns to kids, and hiding out in mosques during worship times... yeah, a lot of honor in that.

and i hate to break up the liberal self-loath fest...

but the people who are hating us now hated us long before any war was started.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

OFKU0

I would suggest if when refering to ignored U.N resolutions, you state all the countries who have and continue to ignore U.N resolutions. Maybe those countries should be invaded too.

As for the U.S, they told the U.N to piss off. Why? Because George Bush, the ultimate humanitarian of the world wanted to save the poor Iraqi's from their tyranical leader and make the world a better place. At least that's the story this week. Good grief.

Tell me the benefit of the U.S in Iraq and how the world is a better place now since the Iraqi's have the label of terrorists. If the U.S invades Canada and I fight back, am I a terrorist too?

sidenote--My apologies to Lebell. Not trying to derail the thread. I just have a hard time when this conflict is perceived as a war when it isn't one.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

matthew330

...ahh - and all those countries also gassed and killed their neighbors. Or i guess this is just testement to how ineffective the UN is, and as such, Bush was right to tell them to piss off. It's not war anyway because "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"

YES!!!

Lebell

No offense taken - I knew the pictures would be percieved by the viewer in ways that confirmed what they already believed.

Those against the war would see them in a negative light while those for the war would see them in a positive light.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

floydthebarber

Sad state of affairs over there.
I feel the same way, you kill my child and I'll do my best to kill as many as I can no matter what the cost.

Sure didn't change my mind either. The war was not necessary. WMD? ya right. The US has got itself in a pickle now and it's only going to get worse. I'm afraid this is going to come and bite the US in the ass, in a big way and for many years to come. I feel sorry for the troops that are being sent there to do this kind of unjust war.

Is this where I ask you when is the US going to free some other repressed country


Don't know if I would give guns to kids, but I'm sure most people would resort to gorilla style warfare when up against an army similar to the US's. Fuck honor. Like I said, kill some of my family or countrymen and I'll resort to anything for revenge.

__________________
wish you were here

Zeld2.0

Well hey if I lost a child like that... I'd go out with my gun and find a way to kill as many of those who did it. And thats the simple truth of human nature.

JBX

wa, Wa, What? What would be a justifiable "cost" for your freedom? Was the body count in the revolutionary war too much, how about the civil war, WWI, WWII. Yes there is a "cost" feelgood, thank god we didn't have you at the helm or it never would have been paid.

__________________
"Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

HarmlessRabbit

Or Matt Drudge, who also linked to the memory hole pics then quickly changed his site to point to the incorrect postings by major papers without mentioning the fact that he did it too.

But anyway, I think the point here is that real pictures like this show what war is really like, and they shouldn't be suppressed. I bet this soldier would be in big trouble if his superiors knew that he had taken and posted these pics.

Sparhawk

I'd like to point out that only the first 40 or so pics are of the NASA pilot. The other 320 are "Real Iraq pictures."

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Seaver

Tell that to the millions of gypsies and jews in the concentration camps.

Tell that to the millions of Ukranians and Russians sent to Siberia deathcamps.

Tell that to the millions in Cambodia who fell under Pol Pot.

Tell that to the millions that died under Mao Tse-Tung.

Tell that to their families that the cost of freedom is too much to pay for.

Tell that to the Iraqi families who's daughters were systematically tortured and raped, then sent home in shoeboxes.

Tell that to the Iraqi families of the men who were dunked in acid baths, only to be medically saved so he could endure it a second time.

Tell that to the Iraqi families who were completely obliterated because of nerve gas.

Tell that to the Iraqi families who filled the mass graves filled with thousands of Iraqis each.

Then tell that to any man in uniform that the thing they fight for, freedom, is not worth the cost.

floydthebarber

If you rise up and fight for your freedom or defend your country it's worth the cost, but if you're attacking and invading other countries to force them into freedom it may change that.

__________________
wish you were here

HarmlessRabbit

with the support of the USA
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Ki...er_Herman.html

You mean from Most-favored-nation china? where your goods from Wal-Mart are currently being made right now?

I'm unclear whether you mean Saddam's troops or ours.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3554081.stm

Those were Kurds, actually, you know, the ones we pretty much abandoned after the first gulf war?

Thank god the killings have stopped and they no longer have to use soccer fields as mass graves. Oh wait, that was a few weeks ago in Fallujah.

You can spout patriotic polemics all you want, the USA has pretty dirty hands in all of this. Look up the current government of Pakistan, for example, and how much support we give them.

Well, in Vietnam it certainly ended up that way. One aspect of freedom is the ability to question the actions of your government.

irateplatypus

Mao died in September 1976, normal trade relations and MFN status weren't granted until 1979, 3 years after his death. Just to clear things up, China today is not governed by a Maoist regime.

if you're going to equate a handful of MPs harassing prisoners (and are going to go before the military equivalient of a grand jury for it) with sending the remains of raped and tortured women in shoeboxes back to their families... then i don't know what to tell you.

They are Kurdish in ethnicity, but they were still Iraqis.

if you're so certain the US has got its hands dirty in all of these events, i can't imagine why you would resort to posting such irresponsible information to make your point. why go to such lengths to say these things?

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

KellyC

Those images reminds me of the video clips about the fall of Saigon in '75. Very sad....First page is already too much for me....

__________________
Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe?
Me: Shit happens.

Seaver

Thank you irateplatypus, you beat me to it

HarmlessRabbit

huh? how is my information irresponsible? Are you denying that the USA and Kissinger were involved in supporting Cambodia?

My point is that you cite Cambodia, just as a f'rinstance, as a sign of terrible atrocities. We ignored the atrocities there.

So, i'm not sure what your polemicizing was all about. What does the USA being involved in the deaths in Cambodia have to do with Iraq? And what did the USA have to do with freeing Cambodia?

Your points seem to just be random tragic events throughout history strung together into some random narrative.

So, specifically, on Cambodia, what point were you trying to make?

JBX

HarmlessRabbit, you are so interested in blaming the USA for everything bad that happens in the world, that I have lost interest in anything you have to say. PLONK

__________________
"Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

tecoyah

That you are "amazed" at how stupid and naive I consider Americans to be, pretty much exemplifies that which you are amazed about. I do not think this way, and was somewhat insulted that you drew such a conclusion from a post explaining my thoughts on a disturbing situation.
I can only guess you are refering to my comment about support dropping for the war, should such images be common. If so, You may be confusing stupidity, for compassion. Actually that is unlikely, as your continued disregard for the deaths of innocent people shows you have no understanding of the meaning of compassion.
And "trust you", I think not. As you seem to be telling me that you know what the soldiers are feeling, this is unlikely. You will note my purposeful use of the english language (which I am sure you will excell at in time) made clear the comment was not speaking for the soldiers, but instead feeling for them.
Should you decide to take the images for what they are, and avoid the politics you so adamantly spew forth, you may find them somewhat disturbing as well.
And by the way, this"small minority" has killed over a hundred of our soldiers this month, and I find this as distastful as the above images. That does not make either an acceptable payment for the freedom of Iraq.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

HarmlessRabbit

Hugs JBX. I don't blame the USA, I'm just not a blind flag waver. Are you aware of the USA and Henry Kissinger's involvement in Cambodia? It's not tin-foil-hat conspiracy theory stuff, it's just public knowledge. Kissinger did a lot of amazingly bad stuff in pursuit of USA public policy goals.

I love the USA. I detest the Bush Administration, but I love the USA and our governmental system, as messed up as it may be at times.

Again, my point was, the statement "tell that to the millions who died under Pol Pot" in justification of the USA being in Iraq is pretty amusing, really, once you know the full story.

irateplatypus

harmlessrabbit,

i think you had me mistaken for somebody else.

tecoyah,

stupid and naive isn't that far from "limited mentality."

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...87#post1101287

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Glad-I-Ate-Her

That's a valid point but look at it from another point of view. Why didn't the Iraqi citizens go and get a gun and kill as much of Sadam's forces as they could when this happened to them? I guess the reason is that they knew that Sadam and his forces would wipe out the whole family one by one. But before killing them, his soldiers would torture and re-torure each individual family member.

Would you still get a gun like you said and kill as many as you can if that was going to happen to your family? Let me be so bold and say I don't think so, when your parents, grand parents, uncle and aunts and your whole family would systematically go through those horrible tortures.

Yes, war is a terrible thing. I just hope you and your extended family doesn't ever have to through one.

Glad

__________________
I'm "Glad I Ate Her" because the payback was worth it!!

Glad-I-Ate-Her

Don't forget the Shia who were also gased and killed by the thousands in the south. Also you can't forget the Marsh Shia whose lives were desimated after living the same way for 5000 years.

Glad

__________________
I'm "Glad I Ate Her" because the payback was worth it!!

HarmlessRabbit

Ok. Noted.

BlueMan

When I saw the pictures I looked them over, and I tried to put them in some kind of context, which was difficult because the photographer didn't provide any background info. Didn't tell us what we were looking at. Which I guess is fine because it provokes thought. When -I- looked at the photos, particularly of women and children, my first thought was to ask myself a question. To wit: "I wonder if this is a child that was injured in a firefight between US Forces and the terrorists, or was the child perhaps injured in one of the number of terrorist bombings that have occured?" Not knowing either way, I don't feel informed enough to comment on those. Tecoyah, you may notice, displays no such (apparent) thought process, to all appearances automatically assuming that our forces -must- have shot/blown up/burned that poor kid/woman/guy, and launching into "Y'see, this is why people hate us." Following that assumed knee-jerk reaction, I am even more interested in having the background info so that I know what I'm looking at. If they are casualties of our offensive actions, I sympathize, but realize that warfare involves collateral damage. Almost without fail. Especially in situations where the enemy chooses to hide behind civilians. I for one will never believe our troops as a whole go out there with the intent to injure and kill civilians, and those who imply such apparently have never actually known anyone in the armed forces. If these children were injured by the terrorists, then it demonstrates exactly what we are fighting to eliminate: cowards who target women and children as a means to their end.

Please also note in a couple of the pictures of a burned out bus, car, etc, that some of the corpses have an equally destroyed gun close by to where they fell. I can only guess that these are enemy casualties, but by the state of the bodies, one can't tell for sure.

Lebell

As I said, those who were against the war will find a way to interpret the images to support their position while those who support it to some degree or another will do the same.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

Zeld2.0

All that talk of atrocities and what not....

Its pretty obvious that shit was in the past and in a lot of ways we were not there when shit happened when we should have. And in other cases, history has repeated itself over and over and that shit will never end so long as people feel that others are inferior or in the way. In some aspects, that would be true to yes, even people on this board, including those who feel that one has a right over another. As long as one feels they have something better, they will have that feeling that they can do what is needed. Its psychology and human nature... but enough of that...

As to the full extent of Saddam.. much of that is speculation on our sides. Unless you lived in Iraq and were witness or were involved, you're not going to know how bad/if how bad things were.

The constant "Saddam killed thousands daily" stuff is getting annoying - its pretty obvious days and days of fighting in Iraq for another year will probably cost more people their lives at this rate. And right now, there's no slowing down.

I can safely say right now over a year after, Iraq is helluva lot more dangerous, and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight.

Right now, my questions are simple - is it worth the cost in money and lives for what is going on now? And, what is the solution to all this?

My own answers sound like: No, for we are sending our boys to die for another nation's problems on ideological reasons to which the nation has no strategic interests. WIth no clear interests at stake, the reasons for war are clouded. And the solution? Well, not enough seems to be done right now to get the country back into place.

tecoyah

The assumptions here, are unfortunately yours. Perhaps my wording was misleading(not to myself) but my post was an attempt to express the reasoning I would find for retribution, should my child suffer such a fate. For you to imply that I was blaming U.S. forces directly for these deaths, shows an obvious misunderstanding of the content.
The United States is certainly forced to bear some responsibility for the death in Iraq at this point, we started a war. Our soldiers are doing the job we require them to do, and while they have surely had incidence of civilian casualties, that is not likely the norm. Had you comprehended the depth of my comments, you would have (I hope) understood the perspective given was meant to be from the Iraqi side of this conflict. And what the parents of a dead or wounded child will likely feel. My "knee jerk" reaction was a personal rendering of the Hypothetical. This has no bearing whatsoever on the accountability of U.S forces.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

AngelicVampire

Some of the pictures are sad, however I do not believe that US and coallition troops are delibrately targetting civilian targets. Casualties happen, though it is not nice for the families of those killed or maimed, we are attempting to minimise these. However the US could turn Iraq into a carpark with a filling station if it wanted however its pumping money into rebuilding the country and setting up a government... the US wants out of Iraq as soon as possible however if they left now they would be slated by the same people slating them for being there becuase more people would die.

Sure the US could pull out now but Iraq would likely fall apart, while I am for pulling our troops out (not because I do not believe that we need to be there but because I would like to hear the anti-war campaigners complain about the "civil-rights violations in Iraq after we leave) we need to keep them there for now until the country stabilises. Just because you removed the tumour doesn't mean that you should not sew the patient back up again.

JBX

Welcome aboard AngelicVampire, I indeed share your thoughts.

HarmlessRabbit, sorry for getting huffy before, it's just that I feel the United States gets blame either when she takes action or doesn't take action. It gets old.

__________________
"Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

Zeld2.0

Well JBX - hindsight is 20/20 and history is riddled with blaming nations for either not doing something or for doing something. To me its the norm and there's no point in arguing the past because history doesn't give an alternative.

What one CAN do, however, is decide what to do in the future.