Bookman

The business of labeling who is a terrorist and who is defending themselves against terrorists has been run by people who use the lables to an advantage.
It is absurd to call an occupation legal (the US is guilty of this as well) and people striking back terrorism. Its like barbarians with educations and huge lexicons telling the story to gain advantage.

pan6467

I suggest everyone read Jack Bernstein's "An American Jew In Racist Marxist Isreal". Not only does it discuss how Isreal is run today, but it touches on how the Zionist Jews helped Hitler. It mentions how Hitler could not have gained the power he did without that help.

interesting arguments the author makes. Jack Bernstein by the way challenged to debate anyone from Isreal about his writings, NO ONE accepted. Rumor has it, he was killed shortly after writing this paper by the MOSSAD.

link http://www.dutchpal.com/pal/history-13.html or try this one
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/israel.htm

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

shakran

No, not at all. I've read Mein Kampf too, and there's no doubt that Hitler really did hate the Jews. However, he wasn't (until the end anyway) stupid about his hatred. He didn't come out on his first day as Chancellor and tell everyone that he wanted to throw every Jew he could find into the gas chamber. He slowly built the German citizens up to his level of hatred. My point there was that people tend to think of Hitler as a psycho who stole control of Germany and became a horrible tyrant. I'm more interested in looking at the German people and how they allowed him to gain control.

The communists were not a domestic threat first off. The threat was from the commie-haters who wanted to persecute anyone they thought might have anything to do with the communists.

As for the terrorists, I never said they don't exist. I said the government doesn't want that threat to go away. 9/11 was wholly preventable with some common sense airline security measures. Really, who's brilliant idea was it to allow knives of ANY length on airplanes? Furthermore, if we are saying the terrorists are a threat, why are people STILL getting weapons onto airplanes? If they're a threat, surely the logical course of acting is to eradicate the threat.

That means staying in Afghanistan and finding bin Laden rather than going after Saddam, who had NOTHING to do with 9/11 and who has become a living martyr for all the radical factions in that part of the world who are just looking for excuses to hate us. The government has made our situation more perilous, not less. Why? Because if we're out of danger we start looking at the royal mess Bush has made of the economy and vote him out of office. This is his only chance to stay in the whtie house - if he has a terrorist threat that he has to "lead" us through. My point in all this is not that Bush = Hitler, but that many of the American people are blindly following their leader even when signs indicate that it's not such a good idea, and there's a definite possibility for comparison between the Americans and the Germans who blindly followed Hitler.

The lesson we should have learned from the Nazis is that blindly following the government can lead to very bad things. Unfortunately, we haven't learned it, so history will at some point repeat itself.

And by the way, McCarthy was NOT right more often than he was wrong. Murrow would not have come out against him if that were the case.

saltfish

Honestly, I have to question your intentions for this post. Not only are you posting material that is very conrtravercial, but you are not posing any type of question, or call of the opinions of others. You are merely stating that no matter how many people died at the hands of the Nazi party, it wasn't THAT bad. ( The capture/torture/death of a human being for one's personal satisfaction is wrong on any level; this is true even for a single, needless death. One death is bad, millions of deaths, an unfathomable travesty.)
Your viewpoints on Israel are baseless and opinion based. I really have to ask how Israel's status as a nation effects you?

I also have to ask why the mods thought this was a good idea. Obviously, allowing someone to post such a topic, and at the same time allowing them to state such defimation as "...US supports Israel fully, and all the bullshit they stand for and do..."
That is your personal opinion, as unfounded as it is, it has no place in this arguement.

-SF

analog

I'm quite relieved to see that this thread has gone so well. This is truly a test of the integrity of the TFP members as a whole, and the ability to keep a discussion free of flames, yelling, name-calling, and other such nonsense.

I ask you, what other board could successfully pull off such a thread?

Let us also please stay focused on the topic, and try not to digress into thoughts over GW and his terrorists. I'm sure there are 12 other threads for that already.

Thank you all for your honest and thoughtful participation, and keep up the good work.

If anyone has any questions as to why this thread is being allowed, or was approved to begin with, please feel free to PM Lebell, me- analog, or any other Mod/Admin- we will be happy to explain. Thank you. -analog.

Stare At The Sun

First off, my post was originally in response to another thread. Hence why this is a Spin off thread. However, I am not saying that what the Nazi's did was right, what I am saying is that the number of victims of the holocaust was vastly overexagerated, and was used to get sympathy for Israel, and to this day, the Jews are trying to increase the number to as high as 9 million, to gain more sympathy

Why this bothers me is that the United States, and many other countries, send billions(35 billion from the US alone) to Israel every year, not to mention arming them to the teeth with the latest and greatest of military tech. This money could be much better spent on domestic issues.

Perhaps if i show some of the things that Israel is doing, like the construction of their new "fence", in territory they have no claim to, shooting people w/ m-16's when they are having rocks thrown at them, running those same people over in tanks, bullying the entire middle east, and constantly threatening the stability of the region. Just one example of how the US turns a blind eye to whatever Israel does:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1061765.htm

Pacifier

And you you presented as a "proof" for that are calculations of liars, false "specialists" and known neonazis....

source?

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

james t kirk

Nice posts Shakran. Very intelligent and well thought out.

I have often wondered why an amoured car with a couple million bucks in it and 3 guys is protected to the hilt, but a passenger plane worth 100 million with 300 people on board has a bifolding MDF board separating the cockpit from the cabin.

WTF?

Oh, and Hitler was a dispicable human being with no good points whatsoever and I am sure that if there is a hell he is roasting away right now.

Much has been said about the German economy and Hitler pulling them out of their depression, blah blah blah. I would use the arguement that so many Clinton bashers use then, that the plans were put in place for an economic recovery by the government prior to Hitler's acension to power (Bismark I believe.)

nanofever

That is exactly was I was going to say, except that you said it with far more tact and consise-ness than I would have and more likely could have.

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Mojo_PeiPei

First off Federal Aid for Israel is nowhere near 35 billion annually, from what I remember we give them about 5 billion in foreign/military aid along with Turkey and Egypt. Secondly what aid we do give them is well deserved 1) they were a very solid and strategic Ally in the cold war 2) they deserve it for the peace they made (or attempted too) with their war mongering Arab neighbors. You tell me how you feel about a fence after hundreds of terrorist attacks almost daily, especially when the people perpetrating it are fucking goon losers who picked the fight and lost. Everytime Israel eases restrictions another Palestinian slips through strapped with a bomb and blows up a bus. They have every right to defend their soverigns anyway they need too, that is the governments responsibility.

You tell me how you would feel after being invaded by enemy countries 3 times (48', 56', 73') and being dragged into a preemptive war in 73', and being forced to take action several times more because other countries knowingly and willing harbor and aid terrorists trying to destroy your country. The Palestinians are in a rough spot. But Ass clown terrorists like Islamic Jihad and Hamas whose sole purpose is to kill Israel's and destroy the State are not helping their cause, that is why I give Israel my full support.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

SLM3

I'd probably be able to if my family wasn't forced from their home at gun point in '48.



SLM3

Bookman

We need an extinguisher...this post is FLAMIN'!!!
Your hate and blindness are sooooo evident right now.

ARTelevision

shakran, I do appreciate your account of the historical phenomena of Nazism and Hitler. I don't see it as relevant or necessary (merely rhetorical) to include the comparisons to present-day US politics, however.

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Ustwo

Perhaps if the Arab's had not invaded in 48, then that would not have happened.

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Bookman

Saying 2 wrongs make a right?

Ustwo

I'm not sure it was wrong. You invade and lose, shit happens. But even if it was, don't play the victim card if you are partially responsible.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Bookman

Invade and loose...then have someone come to your spot and take your home. That sounds like defend invasion...then go invade.

SLM3

I don't understand. My family had a house there for generations, and was kicked out before any sort of Arab invasion occured. I think you're forgetting who took what from whom.

Does Deir Yassin mean anything to you? I'll wait while you google it.

Just out of curiousity, Ustwo, what makes you an authority on the history of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict?

Interesting word, invade. You take land, then the people and their allies fight back, and they're the aggressors?


SLM3

Mojo_PeiPei

So your family was kicked out during the civil war? Jews can claim the same thing, many had been living there for generations... Next thing you know 5 Arab regular armies come marching in to annihilate you.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Mojo_PeiPei

I don't know how that was a flame in anyway. All I did was call out the assholes in the world like Islamic Jihad and Hamas.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Strange Famous

Well, the one thing I CAN'T believe, is that I haven't seen this quote brough out yet:

"Naturally the common people do not want war: neither in Russia, nor England, nor, for that matter, in Germany. That is understood. But, after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

Reichmarshal Hermann Goering at the Nuremberg Trails

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Jizz-Fritter

I'm still curious as to what Hitler's good points were. There was a comment made about the industrial revival Hiitler took credit for after WWI.

Even if he was directly responsible, we have to remind ourselves that the economy could be doing great, but the people aren't.

Before WWII, Hitler was a darling of the business world in the 1930s because of his facism. Now remember that fascism doesn't mean gas chambers, it is a special kind of an economic arrangement, where the government and the corporations mix. Mussolini preferred the term "corporatization" over fascism.

What happens with fascism? The government and the corporations come together and decide how much investment, research, and consumption goes on every year (something that goes on right now in Japan every 2 years), unions are destroyed, and national assets are auctioned off.

In essence, the market was doing great in Germany, but that doesn't mean the people were. I don't believe that being forced to work two jobs to support a family is "progress".

Incidentally, FDR called Mussolini "an admirable Italian gentlemen." Fun in a can.

boatin

I find historical points illustrated by modern examples make more sense to me. I also find posters having points to posts adds to the discussion. Whether I agree or not.

If one disagrees, say so and back up it with fact/opinion. Or take it to another thread, as SatS did originally.

I don't find it odd that you don't appreciate his point. I do find it odd that it's worth your comment. Isn't the point of threads (particularly in Politics) to discuss/ask/share?

skier

I hope this thread is recovering from the flames a few posts back.

Jizz-Fritter you make an excellent point. The people were working very hard for the economy to be so great. But the fact is that they were working. He provided many jobs for these people that really had no chance at all for work before. Because these people had once more a chance to support themselves and their families, they were willing to work hard for their money.

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Jizz-Fritter

I can think of more stimulating activities than working.

StormBerlin

You have a very good point and I agree. It was a horrible thing that happened, but everything happens for a reason. My grandmother lived through that war in Hungary, and she told us stories all the time of the German soldiers being the "civilized" ones. It was the Americans she had to dress up like an old woman and run from to keep from getting raped. The stories go into much more detail than that, but then I would be innapropriate. I think you bring very valid points, and I just hope we learn from our mistakes.

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Strange Famous

All occupying forces have tended to take part in rape and pillage, it is not a uniquely German or American trait - the crime for which Hitler is damned by his "eternal court of justic" is attempted genocide, not prosecuting an aggressive war.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

harry

Hi,

lets hope 'Stare at the Sun' is just being provocative in order to get the discussion going. Whenever I hear someone start a sentence with 'I know the Nazis were bad, but...' I get the creeps.

Actually I think its rather useless to argue wether there were 500 000 jewish victims of the NSDAP or a million or 6 million and I dont quite see the point in it. I just wanted to state that until 1937 about 50 jewish Austrians lived in the town where I was born. 15 of them were murdered the rest emmigrated, only one family returned after the war. So even in a small town of about 10000 people there have been victims. And im not counting the 'arians' that have been killed because they were social democrats, communists or even catholics who wouldnt cooperate with the new regime.

So even as a non-historian I can say that all over Austria the bodycount must have been enormous (especially in Vienna with its jewish community of almost 250000 up to the incorporation of Austria into the 'Reich', at least 40000 of whom didnt survive the holocaust). If you take into consideration that Hitler ruled almost all over Europe for a couple of years 6 Million does not sound like much of an exaggeration to me.

Anyway what I actually wanted to say, is that even for what they have done to my hometown, my country and its people Hitler and all Nazis and Nazi-Sympathizers derserve to rot in hell for all eternity - no matter how many highways they built or how great a protege of the arms industry Adolf Hitler was .

JumpinJesus

I certainly hope this is not considered a flame.

The internet has become one of the largest and most invaluable tools of the various racist groups around the world.

The ability to communicate to mass numbers with minimal effort - via websites - has assisted these groups in ways that were unthinkable in years past.

One of the most widely used methods for these groups is to infiltrate newsgroups and other internet forums to recruit new members. The members of these groups post their drivel on these sites knowing that they will be denounced by the large majority of the members of these sites. They also know, however, that among the large number of people shouting them down will be a small number of possible recruits. Every seed of doubt they can sow is a victory for them.

Holocaust denial is one of their most successful campaigns.

It goes something like this: Oh, yeah, I'm sure some people were killed, but 6,000,000? Come on.... It couldn't possibly have been that many... or... There is no evidence that a "Final Solution" existed. Sound familiar?

But don't just take my word for it; read about it yourself
here and here. These are just two links from the Anti-Defamation League. There are countless other sites out there, if you do a little searching.

It is widely known that the stereotype of your typical white supremicist is that of a toothless trailerpark denizen with little more than a basic knowledge of grammar and vocabulary. To combat this image, many groups have enlisted the help of educated bigots to help promote a more "civilized" image and project a more "intelligent" facade.

With all due respect and acknowledgement that neither do I know what transpired with the moderators prior to the posting of this thread nor the person who posted it, it is my belief that we have been the victims of one of these group's campaigns - disguised as "intelligent" debate. This is the exact intent of the Committee for Open Debate of the Holocaust, a group that engages in interent holocaust denial.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Lebell

I am not unaware of this phenonomon and believe me, if I thought this were the case, I wouldn't have allowed the discussion to occur.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Stare At The Sun

Yeah, I'm pretty pissed right now. I do NOT appreciate being called a peon for some racist group. This was a civil and open discussion that I felt was in order. If you read my original posts, you will very clearly see that I am not trying to incite anything, nor am I trying to totally deny the Holocaust. It was an awful and tragic event. The inhumanity of it is beyond words. That is a fact.

My views on the Holocaust, however controvertial, are my own. They were posted in a civil manner that was approved by the mod's. I was not trying to recruit anyone for any racist oganization.

Lebell

SATS,

While I did not think you were a recruiter, it is a legitimate concern, as there are people doing exactly what JumpinJesus said, that is, spreading lies and half truths about the holocaust.

The fact that you have questions regarding the numbers tells me that they are at least partly successful and one reason I put my own stamp of approval on the thread along with analog.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Strange Famous

Really, the question to me is not what the intentions of SATS are, without wishing to sound harsh, when I see someone making comments about "the myth of the 6 million" and "well, we know something happened, but the figure of 6 million is hugely inflated..." I just dont really feel myself wanting to know them.

The question to me, and I think this is the defence of the moderators, is what is the best way to deal with holocaust denial? When someone comes to this site and wants to post something along the lines of "well, you know, their were Jewish casualties in WWII, but the scale and the scope of the holocaust were invented by zionist controlled governments and used as a justification for the creation of Israel" - I mean, most of us do not believe that these statements to be factually true, most of us can find a huge wealth of evidence that the holocaust did happen, that those people did die, most of us understand that what SATS says is simply not true, that whether it is "his opinion" or "someone else's" at best it is a very poor misunderstanding of history, at worst an extremely distasteful falsehood.

So when you have a post like this, you have two options - 1 you censor it because you and the majority of people find it offensive, 2 - you allow it to stand, and you allow the members of this community to demolish all of the claims made within in it, to show that holocaust denial has no historical or factual basis whatsoever, that the holocaust clearly can be proved beyond any doubt to have occured.

When I first saw this post, I was upset that option 1 was not taken, but after I have thought about it, I do appreciate that option 2 was probably better all along. If we just censor holocaust denial or holocaust revisionalism, we allow their claims to be unchallenged - it is better to knock down the claims, to always and at all times fight them and prove they are untrue, so that if there are people who are doubtful, who have not studied this - when they come to this thread, they do not see the revisionist comment only and then it disappears, so in fact the only education the thread gives them is "the myth of 6 million", they see the revisionist comment and then see many people offer proof of the holocaust, and they understand that the revisionist claims are very base lies.

Sometimes, free speech can be valuable, we cannot fight these ideas by just banning them, we should never be afraid to engage them. I think this is what lebell and analog have done here, and although I initially did not agree, I now think that their actons to allow this thread were correct.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

JumpinJesus

Stare at the Sun,

First, I ask that you keep in perspective that I do not know you. Without the knowledge of your intent, I have to base my reaction on my own prior knowledge of the statements you have made.

Did you follow the links I posted? If you did, then can you not understand from where my comments come? If you did not, then I ask that you do follow those links; it may give you some idea as to why I posted what I did.

I have my reasons for feeling the way that I do about this topic as I'm sure everyone here with an opinion has a reason for theirs. If you take offense at my comments, then I've made my point. I cannot believe that you did not consider this a possible response to your post.

You link to the CODOH website, a white supremicist group masquerading as a think tank, as a basis for your opinion- and yet you take offense when I question your motives.

Your linking to one of the most damaging groups advocating the denial of the holocaust - the Committee for Open Debate of the Holocaust - is what caused me to post what I did. Your linking to their website, if not done intentionally, shows a woeful ignorance on your part as to where you gain your information.

Do you honestly not see how using this group as a source for information, then calling it a desire for "civil and open discussion" can be viewed with some suspicion when the sole purpose of this organization is to cast doubt on the holocaust in the hopes of winning converts to supremicist organizations? Are you truly unaware of this group's intent?

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Stare At The Sun

You do realize the ADL is a Jewish website, and therefore, just as biased as any "white supremist" website.

analog

Well, seeing as this has now boiled down to debating hate group affiliations and whether or not Stare At the Sun is one of them, I can safely assume we've all had it out on this topic.

Thank you all for participating. To all of you who understood why we allowed this thread to take place at all- you are truly thanked and appreciated.

Most notably:

EDIT:

After careful consideration and a PM from a contributor to this post, I am compelled to add further explaination to the end of this thread.

1. Whether or not Stare At The Sun is or is not- and he says he is not, and i must respect his assertion- a racist, white-power hate-group-pusher is not the issue here, not the point of the thread, and not the topic we're discussing. This thread derailed several posts ago, and I have now decided to end it.

2. The continued use of opinion, regardless of the opinion itself, is part of what got this thread closed. Also, invoking the name of the CODOH, a WELL-KNOWN white power group- no matter how honest the intentions- is not something that will be done here.

If you all want to discuss who and what the CODOH are, and if they really are racists and revisionists- fine, go make another thread. I said I would show this topic nothing but the utmost respect, and I have done that. Allowing the discussion to derail into whether or not people are racists, or what a particular organization's aim is, and to continue to deal only in opinion and the "facts" of so-called "experts" in said organization would be irresponsible and disrespectful to those lost and to those left behind.

It is for those people whom we (I) work so carefully to protect.

Please feel free to PM me if you have any questions, comments, etc., I welcome them.

Thank you all again.

-analog.