Mosque planned to be built near Ground Zero - Page 7 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Baraka_Guru · 08-24-2010, 09:39 AM

Americans aren't known for their long memories. Maybe they're still so caught up in 9/11 because "Ground Zero" hasn't been rebuilt yet.

They don't seem to have a problem with Pearl Harbor anymore. Look at all those Sony Playstations.

ring · 08-24-2010, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ring

There's a gaggle of men that hang about the closest gas station/snack store.
Every damn time I frequent this establishment, I hear them spouting their same mantra.
Obama's nuthin' but a N****r Muslim.

It's so fucking nauseatingly tiresome & frightening.

What I spoke of, above, is not an isolated incident.
It's become viral.

Jette brought up an excellent point.
How do we break through the wall of ignorance & fear?

The current television media machine that many folk continue to rely on for information, is a petri-dish that's been well fertilized, for profit.

It's beyond disgraceful.

roachboy · 08-24-2010, 09:52 AM

for profit and short-term political advantage in a faction fight over control of the far right.

dick army---which is still my favorite name for a national politician ever---has appointed himself "leader" of the teabaggers and is threatening conservatives with hell to pay in the coming mid-terms if they do not tow the teabagger line---pull them out of the water at the appropriate time, presumably.

what concerns me really is a scenario of political paralysis and economic crisis in a context wherein a mobilized neo-fascism is getting media play and--to my horror--some traction.

what seems more likely to happen is that the neo-fascist right is doing itself tremendous damage by exposing its racist underpinnings so obviously. they'd be better off staying vague.

Baraka_Guru · 08-24-2010, 10:00 AM

Here is a microcosm of its divisiveness:

Quote:

Ron Paul and Son Rand Split Over Ground Zero Mosque
Tue Aug 24 12:17:32 2010 by Angela Kaye Mason

cmuray Aug 24 (THAINDIAN NEWS) There are problems in the house of Paul, as father and son are at odds over the very controversial issue of a proposed mosque being built at Ground Zero, where over two thousand Americans were brutally killed when radical Islamists smashed airplanes into the Twin Towers in the World Trade Center. Republican Representative Ron Paul has split with his own son over the issue, with the elder in favor, and the son opposed.

Many Americans oppose the proposed religious mosque being built in that particular area, since the ashes of the dead victims are still in the ground there. But those in favor say that it is an American right that a religious building can be placed anywhere it’s owners choose.

In a statement which was released by Ron Paul on Friday, he ripped into the opponents of the mosque, and said, “This is all about hate and Islamaphobia. We now have an epidemic of “sunshine patriots” on both the right and the left who are all for freedom, as long as there’s no controversy and nobody is offended. Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.”

But those statements were, essentially, critism of Paul’s own son, since the Kentucky Republican Senate candidate Rand Paul told ‘TPMDC’ that he is not in favor of the mosque. His spokesman, Gary Howard stated, “While this is a local matter that should be decided by the people of New York, Dr. Paul does not support a mosque being built two blocks from Ground Zero. In Dr. Paul’s opinion, the Muslim community would better serve the healing process by making a donation to the memorial fund for the victims of September 11th.”

When asked what he felt about his own son’s opposition of the mosque, Ron Paul simply said, “Rand Paul is his own man.”

“And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.” Matthew 10:36

Ron Paul and Son Rand Split Over Ground Zero Mosque

The_Dunedan · 08-24-2010, 10:26 AM

[goatfucker]

But...but...but...Ron Paul! Racist Loonytarian Teabagger conservative joke from TEXAS for God's sake! He can't POSSIBLY be supporting the rights of Muslim Americans! He can't POSSIBLY be calling people out on their collectivist bullshit! He just...CAN'T! He's WHITE and CONSERVATIVE!

[/goatfucker]

roachboy · 08-24-2010, 10:34 AM

so let's see if i have this straight, dunedan: post after post to this and other threads about the rise of this new racist meme amongst aspects of the right that connect it to a faction fight---which presuppose **differentiations** amongst the right, which means that **not** everyone is being tarred with the same brush---even as the neo-fascism that's being used to mobilize these people is being criticized---and rightly so, goddamn it....

and you come in with a goofball driveby based on nothing---at all---but projections. in order to---GASP!---play the conservative-as-victim game.

great. well, that totally changes how i view the situation. well played.

The_Dunedan · 08-24-2010, 10:37 AM

If I was trying to change how you see the situation, I'd have given up a long time ago. The entire point of that "drive by," as you put it, was to point out that the Conservative wing of American politics is neither as monolothic, nor as uniform, as many folks would like. It makes it a lot easier to imagine Conservatism as a giant pastiche of racism and revenge fantasies and argue against -that-, but that doesn't make it accurate. -That- was my point.

That and getting a chance to use "Goatfucker" again, since "Teabagger" now seems to be back on the menu around here.

roachboy · 08-24-2010, 10:50 AM

i don't remember anyone saying **all** conservatives are participating in these demonstrations, in these actions---but there's no doubt that **alot** of conservatives ARE participating in it.

but i imagine that those who aren't participating are kinda pissed off. where are they?

The_Dunedan · 08-24-2010, 11:09 AM

Quote:

but i imagine that those who aren't participating are kinda pissed off. where are they?

Currently, they're mostly trying to tactfully shut this bunch up by reminding them that hey, this is America. Dr. Paul (the elder) is the first to make the national news, but it's turning into a significant schism. I've even seen some friction in that regard in my shop, from various customers. However, since "bleeding = leading," the MSM is mostly ignoring Conservative support for the rights of the Muslims in this case. Even my Boss, who makes Il Duce and Augusto Pinochet look like screaming leftists, is on Cordoba's side. He wishes they'd build it someplace else and avoid all the noise and distraction, but he fully supports their right to build their Comm. Centre wherever they like. "I may not like it, but this is America and they've got the same rights as I do" is his stance.

What I do think this -is- showing (or perhaps accelerating) is a Paleo/Neo-Conservative split in the American Right. Dr. Paul represents the Paleo-Conservative faction, which supports the rights of all people, of all faiths, to practice their religion because agree with them or not, that's America and that's called being an adult. William Normal Grigg, formerly of the John Birch Society, is another Paleo-Conservative supporter of this project. His latest column, "Is The Muslim My Neighbor?"* is an excellent defense of this position from a Christian perspective. Others, most notably the excreable Newt Gingrich, represent the Neo-Conservative faction which has always been if not explicitly racist, fairly explicitly anti-Muslim, a flavour of collectivism which Dr. Paul, Mr. Grigg, myself, and most other Paleo-Conservative/libertarian thinkers reject out of hand.

freedominourtime.blogspot.com/

mixedmedia · 08-24-2010, 11:53 AM

Can someone post a political ad from a Republican nominee who is running on a non-alarmist, moderate platform? I haven't seen one. This can only lead me to believe that the majority of Republican voters are motivated by these issues. So while I sympathize with appeals from Republican voters who are not of that ilk, I can't help but be left with the impression that they do not have a voice in their party at the moment. This should give pause to anyone who enjoys the rational idea of an America where everyone is (essentially) free.

I've been slowly watching a 10-part documentary on NYC for the past several weeks and it's striking to note how the resistance to the city's enormous influx of immigrants seemed to really heighten and seethe at times of economic crisis and war - sometimes resulting in terrible violence. I can't help but think we are experiencing yet another wave of this same sort of race-based apprehension in America right now. Not that I necessarily believe that there will be lynchings in the streets any time soon, but since when is a little bit of evil ok?

Cynthetiq · 08-24-2010, 11:59 AM

mix, I don't think either party represents my viewpoints at all only some.

what documentary is that?

Wes Mantooth · 08-24-2010, 12:21 PM

Yup I've felt left behind by both parties for...well most of my life. I guess maybe I wasn't left behind so much as just not able to find a proper fit. I have a hard time identifying with either party and watching them fight over issues like this, to me, is just beyond pathetic. Hungry ticks attaching themselves to the underbelly of this story in a sad attempt to get attention and votes, its disgusting.

Never the less for every talking head, out of touch politician jumping and average Joe jumping all over this as the hot button du jour the level headed and rational still exist on both sides. Sadly they just seem to get lost in the mindless din and forgotten about at the polls.

Controversy sells.

roachboy · 08-24-2010, 12:32 PM

well fine...that means that none of you folk are out there for these xenophobic little demonstrations. but there **are** people who participate and they operate in the name of conservatism--they take it over, they rebrand it. i would hope that they're doing conservatism alot of damage as well, but that's just me.

thing is that--again--i don't understand why there's no conservative push-back on this. why no conservative counter-demonstrations? why so few national level conservatives denouncing this neo-fascist turn?

speaking as someone well to the left of alot of folk here, there's a side of me that's content to watch the right eat itself.

but there's also the scenario that alarms me of political paralysis (which the republicans have been working on, which the tea party promises to only make more systematic) and economic crisis (27% drop in housing sales for the last month anyone? just saying, as an example--indicators or realities can come flying out of nowhere) combine as these neo-fascists give the appearance of a mass movement (and fascisms everywhere give the impression of being such a movement until they get into power, at which point they can remake themselves into a mass movement by fusing with the state and systematizing the violence that's implicit in strategies of exclusion)...

that said, though: where are all these alienated conservatives? is this alienation ok with you?

Cimarron29414 · 08-24-2010, 12:51 PM

Regarding Posts 239 and 240: Opposing the building of a mosque within a one square mile radius in one city is not exactly the same as supporting the rounding up of all the Islamic, brown people and moving them to the old Japanese internment camps. I think you guys are letting your imaginations get the better of you - vilifying to the extreme.

Just as a reminder, I do not oppose the building of the mosque. I think the notion is tacky, but I don't oppose it.

snowy · 08-24-2010, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

Can someone post a political ad from a Republican nominee who is running on a non-alarmist, moderate platform?

I think Chris Dudley is probably the only Republican candidate I've seen, even in Oregon, running moderate ads--but that is because he knows he can't win this state without moderate independent voters.

roachboy · 08-24-2010, 01:04 PM

for what it's worth, cimmaron, there is no mosque being built at or next to the giant hole in the ground. and if you want tacky, you should check out the "Ground Zero" souvenir industry. nothing leads americans in general to explosions of bad taste quite the way memorials do, particularly when they get a bit of that jingo powder mixed in like kool aid. but i digress.

if we were collectively to start banning stuff on the grounds of tackiness tho...we might get along better because it'd be fun, but there'd be a whole lot of stuff that'd disappear.

i don't think anyone's confusing the mounting racist climate directed against muslims that's building of this fake ground zero meme with the more actively racist stuff that's playing out in aridzona and, more recently, florida (at the level of draconian law at least).

for myself, i react more strongly to the islamophobia because of the network of folk i'm close to personally in meat-space. it concerns me that it's nauseating and freaking out people i love. what's happening in arizona is to me more objectively foul, if you know what i mean.

they seem to me of a piece, almost connected: the same kind of ultra-rightwing political sensibility.

Cimarron29414 · 08-24-2010, 01:11 PM

Woah, I was referencing the Japanese internment camps from WWII when I said that. Your reply made me realize it could be taken as rounding up illegals in Arizona. Hmmmm, I'm going to go edit that post. Sorry, for the confusion.

....To go on, I suppose tacky might not be the best word. Perhaps, lack of sensibility? It's such a complicated mix of emotions for those involved, but they are only emotions - which is where rule of law steps in and where their right to build is absolute.

Having said all of that, I would challenge those who oppose it to tell me what an acceptable range is? 3 blocks? 4? How far out does the intolerant outrage reach? Perhaps we should string up a "Caution, no muslims allowed" tape around the circumference of intolerance, just so "they" will know where they can apply for building permits. Oooh, oooh! Or use some of those "Your stimulus money at work" signs to post around the "green zone"...er..."red, white, and blue zone?"

Wes Mantooth · 08-24-2010, 01:11 PM

I think the problem is that at the end of the day issues like the Mosque just aren't that important to a lot of people out side of something to talk about around the water cooler or on a message board, why protest something you just don't care about one way or the other?

People are going to support a party they can identify with and for some that, for better or worse, is the Republican party. The average person just doesn't put that much time and energy into thinking about the latest hot button issue because they either don't have the time or simply don't care, when you're trying to scratch out a living and support a family these issues just stop carrying the weight some like to put behind them. So whats the average right of center minded person supposed to do? Vote Democrat? Throw away a vote on a third party? Of course not, they support the party that gives them the best chance of getting the government and policies they want regardless of weather or not they disagree with them on certain issues.

Baraka_Guru · 08-24-2010, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cimarron29414

Regarding Posts 239 and 240: Opposing the building of a mosque within a one square mile radius in one city is not exactly the same as supporting the rounding up of all the Islamic, brown people and moving them to the old Japanese internment camps. I think you guys are letting your imaginations get the better of you - vilifying to the extreme.

For starters, I'm not suggesting that this issue is indicative of the hardships thrust on German-, Japanese-, and Italian-Americans during WWII. I was taking the overall sentiment and speculating on how it could turn to the worse. Which leads to my second point: this isn't just about opposing a mosque being built in the general vicinity of Ground Zero. It stopped being that days ago when it hit a surge of media coverage and public reaction. It's no longer about Lower Manhattan. It's no longer about the Islamic cultural centre (it's not a mosque, remember?).

It has become a cultural, social, and religious opposition to Islam in America. This is a culture clash, not a local civic dispute.

I'm a big picture guy and I have too much of an imagination. I also happen to live in a bubble and am somewhat detached from reality. So take what I say at this point with a grain of salt.

roachboy · 08-24-2010, 02:44 PM

even so, it's sometimes good to be reminded of certain things we all know, one way or another. like what martin niemoller said in 1946:

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

and what no passaran refered to at. say, the siege of madrid (1936 for those keeping score at home).

i've repeated it a bunch and would much rather be on to something else because there's lots of things to be interested by in the world. this does not interest me: it repulses.
these people are neo-fascists. straight up.
they dont have power and are kinda clowns, but the history that they align with---whether you like it or not---is littered with people who seemed like clowns.
i think they should be actively opposed.
it's not ok that the tea party---particularly not this manifestation of it, this racist dimension---gets such sweetheart coverage on faux news.
it's not ok that there is an ideological infrastructure that is able to perpetuate and extend the reach of this reactionary business.
it's not ok that there is an institutional frame that sees playing with this neo-fascism something that might be a tactical advantage.

this situation is not ok.

Wes Mantooth · 08-24-2010, 03:22 PM

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

I've always loved this quote and I wish more people would take it to heart (maybe we can slap this on front lawn of court houses instead of the 10 commandments) because they would care more about issues that don't immediately have any impact them (and I'm as guilty of that as the next guy...but I do try). BUT that doesn't really reflect the average person in my opinion and at the end of the day, for most, issues that have a direct impact on their lives will always trump issues that don't. In turn stuff like the ground zero mosque will be allowed to fester and grow while they worry about voting in somebody who will lower taxes (or whatever).

Then again our history here in the US is riddled with issues like this and no matter how ugly they seem to get at the height of the controversy we seem to do an okay good job at getting them worked out in the end. As troubling as some of this is, perhaps its not the worst idea in the world to just leave it alone and let those involved play it out. Facing an issue head on, getting our deepest thoughts and fears out on the table now, no matter how irrational might go a long way in getting people to think about it, learn from it and work on creating a better world tomorrow. Sometimes looking at raw ugliness right in the face can get people to realize that the values and beliefs they hold need to change.

mixedmedia · 08-24-2010, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

mix, I don't think either party represents my viewpoints at all only some.

what documentary is that?

truthfully, the democratic party doesn't represent all of my views, either...rather, I don't find that they always walk it like they talk it.

This documentary:

New York

It's actually 8 parts, not 10. I was mistaken. But each disc is about 2 hours - it's very comprehensive. And fascinating. We have watched episodes 1-3.

---------- Post added at 09:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------

and thank you for the video evidence, snowy :-)

dogzilla · 08-24-2010, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

thing is that--again--i don't understand why there's no conservative push-back on this. why no conservative counter-demonstrations? why so few national level conservatives denouncing this neo-fascist turn?

There's been a few conservative leaders identified just in this thread who are not against construction of the mosque.

I personally have no problem with this mosque (actually cultural center from some articles I've read).

So far I haven't seen any proof that everyone attending the anti-mosque rallies is a conservative nor have I seen any proof that no conservatives have attended pro-mosque rallies.

What I have seen is a few Democrats opposed to this mosque, starting with Harry Reid and now NY Gov Paterson and NY Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver backing away from allowing construction to proceed at that site.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38835097

Quote:

State Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver made his strongest comments to date about the placement of the so-called "Ground Zero mosque" today after a press conference on education funds.

Following the news conference on federal "Race to the Top"' grants with the governor, Silver said that while the developers of the Park51 Islamic Center had the legal right to build only two blocks from the site of the World Trade Center, they should seriously reconsider.

"The sponsor should take into very serious consideration the type of turmoil that's been created... and find a suitable place that doesn't create the kind of controversy this does," said Silver.

If this poll is any indication, it's not just conservatives that are opposed to the mosque

Many More Now Following Mosque Controversy ? And Don?t Like It - Rasmussen Reports

Quote:

A lot more voters are paying attention to the plans to build a mosque near the Ground Zero site of the 9/11 terrorist attacks in New York City, and they don’t like the idea.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 85% of U.S. voters say they are now following news stories about the mosque planned near Ground Zero. That’s a 34-point jump from a month ago when only 51% said they were following the story.

The new finding includes 58% who are following the story very closely, up from 22% in mid-July.

Now 62% oppose the building of a mosque near where the World Trade Center stood in Lower Manhattan, compared to 54% in the previous survey. Twenty-five percent (25%) favor allowing the mosque to go ahead, and 13% more are not sure.

Sixty-eight percent (68%) of the Political Class, however, favor building the mosque near Ground Zero. Seventy-seven percent (77%) of Mainstream voters are opposed.

As far as I know, conservatives do not make up 77% of the mainstream voter class. Ignorance and intolerance exists in both groups. Surprise surprise.

Cynthetiq · 08-24-2010, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

truthfully, the democratic party doesn't represent all of my views, either...rather, I don't find that they always walk it like they talk it.

This documentary:

New York

It's actually 8 parts, not 10. I was mistaken. But each disc is about 2 hours - it's very comprehensive. And fascinating. We have watched episodes 1-3.

---------- Post added at 09:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------

and thank you for the video evidence, snowy :-)

yes, I love that series. Ric Burns really did make such a masterpiece with that series. It really helps me understand the city that I live in so much better than the tales I've been told and books that I've read. I keep thinking of buying it from PBS during their begathons.

I watched the original airing after 9/11 but before they completed the 8th episode. The last episode almost kills me when I watch it, especially when I watch the series from end to end, it's like a sad ending to a movie.

The best part though is that the tale isn't over and there's still more story to tell. Hopefully someone else will make another documentary that continues the story.

You should check out his Civil War series.

Baraka_Guru · 08-24-2010, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogzilla

As far as I know, conservatives do not make up 77% of the mainstream voter class. Ignorance and intolerance exists in both groups. Surprise surprise.

No, but approximately 76% of Americans are Christians. Coincidence?

dogzilla · 08-24-2010, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

No, but approximately 76% of Americans are Christians. Coincidence?

Really? All Christian faiths from people like Fred Phelps all the way to some liberal Christian groups have the same position against the mosque construction? I kind of doubt that.

Pearl Trade · 08-24-2010, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

No, but approximately 76% of Americans are Christians. Coincidence?

It seems to me you're implying every Christian is against the mosque, which is impossible. I'm a Christian and I'm all for building it, that's one down. There are many more like me who are not against it. Are you also implying that all Christians in America are intolerant of Islam?

Bad job on your part, Baraka.

Baraka_Guru · 08-24-2010, 06:45 PM

Note the smiley, folks. (I couldn't find a tongue-in-cheek smiley, sorry.)

It was my idea of a sardonic dig on stats relating to people's values and opinions on a large scale. I've seen too many tonight, I think, and I went overboard.

mixedmedia · 08-25-2010, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

yes, I love that series. Ric Burns really did make such a masterpiece with that series. It really helps me understand the city that I live in so much better than the tales I've been told and books that I've read. I keep thinking of buying it from PBS during their begathons.

I watched the original airing after 9/11 but before they completed the 8th episode. The last episode almost kills me when I watch it, especially when I watch the series from end to end, it's like a sad ending to a movie.

The best part though is that the tale isn't over and there's still more story to tell. Hopefully someone else will make another documentary that continues the story.

You should check out his Civil War series.

actually his brother Ken Burns made the Civil War series, although I think they may have collaborated on it. I was a little confused at first, too, I didn't know that Ken Burns had a filmmaker brother.

P has the Civil War series here and I would like to watch it when we are finished with this one. Ken Burns also did a two part biography of Mark Twain which we watched last year.

But yes, this NY film is very moving and inspiring at times. The city has such a rich and truly awe-inspiring history. I've had many jaw-dropping moments, lol, and we're not even halfway through it.

/sorry to digress...

roachboy · 08-25-2010, 03:50 AM

interesting, dogzilla. so that poll repeated the terms specific to the conservative fiction that's replaced the reality of an islamic center that's to be built a few blocks from the center of the world trade center souvenir business. and it is about the power of framing, i'd say. once again the conservative media apparatus manufactures a story. they manufacture a way to package that story (patricia geller, fascist blogger with an islam Problem) and then the well-funded populist conservative media-space repeats that manufactured story ad infinitum. it makes its way into the mainstream press as a manufactured item initially, then as a Problem with the ultra-right---look at those racists and what they're doing---but the repetition seems to eventually acquire its own tipping point.

btw ramussen polls are done nightly. they're as shallow as shallow can be.
what you're seeing with the results is bounce-back of a television signal.

but hey, those results may be laughable but they makes the tea party's racism look like its just part of a more general racism.
so therefore it must be ok to be racist.
q.e.d., yes?

dogzilla · 08-25-2010, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

btw ramussen polls are done nightly. they're as shallow as shallow can be.
what you're seeing with the results is bounce-back of a television signal.

If they are the 'bounce back' of a TV signal, then they are more likely to reflect developing trends instead of research done a month ago. Regardless, the beauty of polls is that there's so many to choose from. Just pick your favorite poll and voila, you are a public opinion expert.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

but hey, those results may be laughable but they makes the tea party's racism look like its just part of a more general racism.
so therefore it must be ok to be racist.
q.e.d., yes?

What's laughable is the Democrat/liberal attempts to portray this as solely a conservative/Tea Party issue. That might be believable if I hadn't seen instances of racism and bigotry from the liberal camp before.

I guess that Reid, Paterson and Silver are just pandering to their conservative base.

roachboy · 08-25-2010, 05:39 AM

i think this is primarily an ultra-right issue. if you look at the actual history of it--you know, what actually happened, how this "issue" came to be packaged as it now is--and there's a salon article i posted earlier in the thread that does exactly that---you will see, that this is story is entirely of conservative manufacture.

and for the record, i have mostly contempt for the democratic party. collectively, it's only consistent virtue is that it's not republican and not part of the conservative media-space that you, for example, seem to inhabit thoroughly. i am personally neither interested in nor surprised by various democrats saying nonsense about this "issue"...alot of those same heroic democrats caved in before the bush administrations entirely fabricated cases for war too.

centrists. no spine at all.

Willravel · 08-25-2010, 09:41 AM

Why don't the Democrats milk wedge issues close to elections like Republicans do? Am I missing that somehow?

Willravel · 08-26-2010, 12:02 PM

I like this simple, straightforward look at how this issue really is vs. what the astroturf protesters seem to think.

roachboy · 08-26-2010, 12:18 PM

if only it were so simple.

more depressing polls and an almost equally depressing array of ideas about the depressing polls.
with one or two exceptions.
sheesh.

Quote:

When Is a Muslim Not a Muslim?
By TOBIN HARSHAW

The Thread is an in-depth look at how major news and controversies are being debated across the online spectrum.

Do you think Barack Obama is a Muslim? According to the Pew Center, many Americans do. According to Politico’s Josh Gerstein, Time magazine’s pollsters found that a majority of Republicans do. But here’s another question: How many of the Americans who say they think Barack Obama is a Muslim actually believe that he is one? That’s not as obtuse a query as it might appear, as some of the blogosphere’s better minds have argued in recent days.

But before we get to that far remove, let’s look at the raw poll data. The Pew survey, which was taken before the president’s seeming endorsement of the mosque near ground zero last Friday and subsequent backpedaling last weekend, found that “nearly one-in-five Americans (18%) now say Obama is a Muslim, up from 11% in March 2009. Only about one-third of adults (34%) say Obama is a Christian, down sharply from 48% in 2009. Fully 43% say they do not know what Obama’s religion is.”

Time’s poll dealt with Islam more broadly:

Twenty-eight percent of voters do not believe Muslims should be eligible to sit on the U.S. Supreme Court. Nearly one-third of the country thinks adherents of Islam should be barred from running for President — a slightly higher percentage than the 24% who mistakenly believe the current occupant of the Oval Office is himself a Muslim. In all, just 47% of respondents believe Obama is a Christian; 24% declined to respond to the question or said they were unsure, and 5% believe he is neither Christian nor Muslim.

The news led the whole gang at NBC News’s First Read to climb on the same high horse: “These results don’t many anyone look good — Obama’s political opponents (who have helped spread false information about the president’s religion and birthplace), the press (which obviously hasn’t done its job here, thanks to some outlets even serving as a megaphone by running false equivalency debates), and the American populace (which should be embarrassed).”
Polls show Americans increasingly question Obama’s religious faith. But is this really just the emergence of another political code word?

Taylor Marsh, however, doesn’t think the vast right-wing conspiracy needs any willing dupes in press:

The rise in the belief that Pres. Obama is a Muslim is due to a concerted effort from the right. Barack Obama and his team should have learned this lesson from the ’90s, but instead they were too busy running from that reality. It’s why conservatives have jumped on the Corboda House issue, and why the White House political team’s bungling of it is so deadly. Like health care last August, we’ve got another festering issue out there when the public’s mood is set on fume. Pamela Geller, Newt Gingrich 9/11 rally against the mosque planned for September is going to set the stage for an emotional engine that will drive November elections. Numbers on the economy make it worse, but the bonfire hasn’t begun to blaze.

Whether the Cordoba House is moved or not hardly matters at this point. The rallying cry on 9/11 this year will be the funnel through which the right’s fury will be lit for the midterms. There isn’t a similar fire on the Democratic Left, which is no one’s fault but Pres. Obama, who chose to listen to a team of triangulating, concession fetishists, who believed that courting conservatives was more important than listening to his base and movement progressives who know how to wage a fight.

Karoli at Crooks and Liars disagrees, and apparently feels that declaring this a non-issue will make it go away:

Because it’s “let’s be stupid because Congress is on recess and we like jumping over a cliff” month, the story actually gets some traction, because it was reported by the ever-vigilant Washington Post. That the question was polled at all lends legitimacy to it. That it was reported simply offers the cynical and the stupid cover to believe what is just simply not true, not relevant, and not an issue.

Alan Colmes takes the Dawkins-Hitchens approach: “It’s a sad commentary that it even has to be stated what faith the president observes, as if it should matter whether he follows Christianity, or any religion at all. What if he were a Muslim? What if he were an atheist? Why should that matter? And let’s not forget that some of the same critics who insist that Obama is a Muslim criticized him for going to a Christian church where prayed for 20 years, got married, and baptized his children.”

And for Paul Rosenberg at Open Left, it’s all the fault of you-know-who: “More than anything, what suggests to me is the severe danger that comes from lying to the American people. The Bush Administration did it all the time. Obama promised to clean things up. But he didn’t. He lied about that. He thought that if he just played nice, the Republicans would play nice, too. So there was no need to ‘look backward,’ and examine all the sordid, mean, and nasty–not to say lethal and illegal–things the GOP had done.”

Back to grasping reality, the Washington Post’s Chris Cillizza thinks the “don’t know” number might be the most worrisome one for the White House:

The political ramifications of the growing uncertainty regarding Obama’s religious affiliation are more difficult to ascertain. There is, without question, some significant level of partisanship inherent in questions about Obama’s faith; the less you like the President, the more likely you are to say he is a Muslim. And, in truth, that 18 percent who falsely identify the President with the Islamic faith would almost certainly never be voting for him anyway.

Perhaps more important from an electoral perspective, however, is the growing number of people who don’t know what religion the President identifies with. While most Americans don’t tend to vote based on religious faith — although being either a Muslim or a Mormon can, among certain demographic groups, complicate a politician’s electoral calculus — they do like to believe that their president is a man of faith.

The Atlantic’s Nicole Allan ponders a trickle-down effect:

If Obama himself were up for re-election in November, the fact that nearly one-fifth of Americans falsely believed he was Muslim, and that Americans in general don’t have the rosiest view of Muslims, might worry Democrats. But it’s unclear whether confusion about the president’s religious identity will trickle down to affect his party’s candidates in congressional and gubernatorial races.

Democrats are already worried about Obama’s plummeting approval and popularity ratings rubbing off on their party’s incumbents, who are facing fierce anti-Washington sentiment at home. The Muslim confusion may not intensify these worries, but it probably won’t soothe them either.

Curiously, Jason Kuznicki of the League of Ordinary Gentlemen, thinks the kerfuffle could actually help the Obama agenda:

Here’s where managed ignorance begins to destroy itself. I disagree with the president on a long, long list of policies and decisions — stimulus spending, health care, Citizens United, civil liberties, surveillance, his Supreme Court nominations… the list probably runs to pages if I think about it. He’s been bad in the areas where I knew he’d be bad, and he’s been even worse in the areas where I thought he might be halfway decent.

But every column-inch devoted to this idiot conspiracy theory forestalls meaningful debate by just that much. Which means we don’t get the political opposition we deserve, Obama’s policies don’t get the scrutiny they so desperately cry out for, and Obama becomes… all the more effective at doing just the things that I wish we could prevent.

On the right, Byron York of The Washington Examiner thinks the White House has itself to blame for not dealing with the issue more openly in the past:

The White House blames the situation on a “misinformation campaign” from Obama’s opponents. But Obama and his aides might also blame themselves for the way they’ve handled the Muslim issue over the years. The question did not come out of nowhere. As Obama said, his grandfather was a Muslim. His father was raised a Muslim before becoming, by Obama’s account, “a confirmed atheist.” Obama’s stepfather was a Muslim. His half-sister Maya told the New York Times that her “whole family was Muslim.”

Obama spent two years in a Muslim school in Indonesia and later, in a conversation with the Times’ Nicholas Kristof, described the Arabic call to prayer, the beginning of which he recited by heart, as “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.” Given all that, it is entirely accurate and fair to describe Obama as having Muslim roots.

Yet during the campaign his aides shouted down even a measured discussion of the topic, and Obama’s critics could face ostracism simply for uttering the candidate’s middle name…. Many people do not pay close attention to news reports. It’s entirely possible some of them blurred the distinction between “Muslim roots” and “Muslim,” especially since Obama in Cairo celebrated what his campaign had once downplayed. The public may be doing the same thing now, particularly after Obama chose a White House Ramadan iftar dinner to make a high-profile statement in support of the Ground Zero mosque

Hot Air’s Allahpundit thinks this is mostly a case of honest confusion:

As for why he’s so often accused of being Muslim, the default lefty explanation is of course racism but I think it’s more a combination of his middle name, his background growing up in Indonesia, and his attempt to win over Muslim public opinion with his Cairo speech last year. And all of that gets compounded by soundbites that are taken out of context or cleverly edited to make it sound like he’s making admissions about his “true faith.” Just last week a commenter e-mailed claiming that Obama had once told Stephanopoulos that he was a Muslim and I had to send him the link to this post from two years ago to set him right.

It’s all very lame and obnoxious, especially given the testimony from pastors that Obama takes his Christian faith seriously, but much like the Birther thing, there’s virtually nothing you can say to convince someone who’s sure that O is what he thinks he is.

The neo-neocon thinks the confusion stems from the larger haziness of the entire Obama narrative:

One might just as well say he’s a space alien and leave it at that. There is no other president about whom we’ve asked similar questions, because in some essential way we’ve known who they are/were. We didn’t and still don’t really know Obama, although we’re getting there, we’re getting there.

The relevance of the speculation about Obama’s true religious beliefs is that it is a subset of the speculation on his inner core and how that is expressed in his behavior as president. What are his true wishes for, and allegiance to, this country? His actions make a great many people doubt that he has the usual conventional dedication to its history and its best interests at heart, a speculation that—despite all the arguments about the wisdom of previous presidents, and disagreements with their policies—has not been seriously leveled at his predecessors.

It is leveled at Obama, however. And it’s sticking and growing because of a combination of three things about him that are unique in presidential history:

(1) His previous track record in public life was relatively short.
(2) He has kept many of the other salient facts of his life hidden, and the press has allowed him to do so.
(3) He campaigned as one thing and has governed as another—and this is not true just of a detail or two, but of his basic political stance, including how liberal or middle-of-the-road he is.

But the conservative commentator who got the left most riled was John Hinderaker of Power Line:

Obama postures as a citizen of the world who has graced America by condescending to be our President and to instruct us. Some liberals accept this posturing gratefully, but most Americans don’t. Obama has defined himself as literally exotic. Small wonder that some Americans attribute exotic qualities to him. We’re not sure who he is, exactly, but he certainly isn’t one of us. Given the currents that swirl through world events these days, being a Muslim is one interpretation of Obama’s exoticism. Those who construe Obama in this way may well be wrong, but it is not hard to understand why they interpret his aloof non-Americanism in this way.

“I think on some level, Hinderaker is right,” responds American Prospect’s Adam Serwer, who goes on to explain why Hinderaker is mostly wrong:

Some conservatives see Obama as being different from them, and they deploy “Muslim” as an epithet to express their suspicion and anger toward him. I’m sure part of it also has to do with conservative elites reinforcing or at least winking at the notion that Obama is being deceptive about his religious beliefs and that describing someone as a “Muslim” is some kind of an insult. As the Pew poll notes, “Beliefs about Obama’s religion are closely linked to political judgments about him. Those who say he is a Muslim overwhelmingly disapprove of his job performance, while a majority of those who think he is a Christian approve of the job Obama is doing.” In a less politically correct time they probably would have used a different word.

Slate’s David Weigel runs with that thought: “Maybe before the Great Mosque Freak-Out of 2010 this would have been more surprising, this idea that ‘Muslim’ is synonymous with ‘un-American’ or ‘anti-American.’ But for three weeks we’ve been asked to admire the resilience and bravery of the family members of 9/11 victims who believe that the existence of a Muslim worship center defiles the area near Ground Zero. It’s acceptable, respectable to argue that this religion, not just the radical perversions of it, is a threat to America. So it becomes a way of describing what’s wrong with Barack Obama.”

And Washington Monthly’s Steve Benen takes it to its conclusion:

In other words, we’ve come to a point in our discourse at which “Muslim” isn’t an adjective used to describe 1.5 billion people; it’s an adjective some Americans use as an insult. While some Democrats used to criticize George W. Bush with words like “idiot” and “liar,” Obama’s detractors now use “Muslim” in much the same way. And the more the president’s support falters, the more “Muslim” he appears in the eyes of his critics.

As a cultural matter, this is insane. As a political matter, there doesn’t appear to be much anyone can do to convince Americans that the president is not, in fact, a secret Muslim.

Doug Mataconis of Below the Beltway is hardly a liberal, but he’s no less disturbed than the preceding troika:

I disapprove of the President’s job performance and I don’t think that the President is Muslim, for example… But, for some group of Americans, quite obviously, opposing the President means that you believe every stupid conspiracy theory about him, like the 22% of Americans who believe that President Bush had advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks but choose not to prevent them. There’s no rational reason for people think things like this, they just do.

That last explanation is disturbing on some level, though. If thinking badly of the President makes someone more likely to think he’s a Muslim, then the next logical conclusion is that people think there’s something bad about being a Muslim. Unfortunately, as another poll out today seems to indicate, that seems to be exactly what some Americans think … It is, quite honestly, easy to believe dark and conspiratorial things about a group of people when you don’t know anyone who belongs to that group.

His final point isn’t any less true for being familiar. What is new, however, is that you can tar the politician of your choice with those conspiracies even if you know he’s not literally a member of the group. So, I’ll ask it again: How many of the Americans who say they think Barack Obama is a Muslim actually believe that he is one? Kudos to anyone who can come up with an answer.

When Is a Muslim Not a Muslim? - NYTimes.com

Pearl Trade · 08-26-2010, 12:42 PM

Quote:

I disapprove of the President’s job performance and I don’t think that the President is Muslim, for example… But, for some group of Americans, quite obviously, opposing the President means that you believe every stupid conspiracy theory about him, like the 22% of Americans who believe that President Bush had advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks but choose not to prevent them. There’s no rational reason for people think things like this, they just do.

That describes what I feel about this.

Good post, roachboy. Thanks for not talking about the "evil right" for once, I would have never thought you'd make a post I'd agree to.

roachboy · 08-26-2010, 12:48 PM

neo-fascism concerns me.
maybe it doesn't concern you.
i dunno.

Wes Mantooth · 08-26-2010, 01:19 PM

Seems like business as usual to me, has there ever been a in a time in the US when some group or minority wasn't demonized and mistreated? Considering our past the treatment Muslims in the this country since 9/11 has been breath of fresh air (well maybe not fresh air...a little less dank and moldy perhaps).

At least these idiots aren't in the majority, at least we haven't passed laws baring Muslims from running for office, we haven't rounded them up and put them in camps...the mosque/community center will probably get built and if it does it just goes to show that those protesting really have no power over anything and legally its just noise. As sad as this may sound our country might be making progress when it comes to dealing with minorities, and things that are "different". Who knows in a few generations we might actually collectively move past this stuff all together.

Imagine if this whole Muslim/Mosque thing was being debated 50 years ago. I would think...well for one Barack Obama would be nowhere near the White House...but the numbers being sighted in most polls would probably be light years higher and the fallout much, much uglier.

Pearl Trade · 08-26-2010, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

neo-fascism concerns me.
maybe it doesn't concern you.
i dunno.

It does, but it's not as pressing to me as it is to you. Maybe one day (God forbid) we'll see stronger elements of fascism, but I don't think we're on that track just because some people who belong in the looney bin are spouting off their crazy ideas.

Willravel · 08-26-2010, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth

Seems like business as usual to me, has there ever been a in a time in the US when some group or minority wasn't demonized and mistreated?

This gives me an upset stomach.

08-24-2010, 09:39 AM	#241 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Americans aren't known for their long memories. Maybe they're still so caught up in 9/11 because "Ground Zero" hasn't been rebuilt yet. They don't seem to have a problem with Pearl Harbor anymore. Look at all those Sony Playstations. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

08-24-2010, 09:52 AM	#243 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	for profit and short-term political advantage in a faction fight over control of the far right. dick army---which is still my favorite name for a national politician ever---has appointed himself "leader" of the teabaggers and is threatening conservatives with hell to pay in the coming mid-terms if they do not tow the teabagger line---pull them out of the water at the appropriate time, presumably. what concerns me really is a scenario of political paralysis and economic crisis in a context wherein a mobilized neo-fascism is getting media play and--to my horror--some traction. what seems more likely to happen is that the neo-fascist right is doing itself tremendous damage by exposing its racist underpinnings so obviously. they'd be better off staying vague. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-24-2010, 10:34 AM	#246 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	so let's see if i have this straight, dunedan: post after post to this and other threads about the rise of this new racist meme amongst aspects of the right that connect it to a faction fight---which presuppose differentiations amongst the right, which means that not everyone is being tarred with the same brush---even as the neo-fascism that's being used to mobilize these people is being criticized---and rightly so, goddamn it.... and you come in with a goofball driveby based on nothing---at all---but projections. in order to---GASP!---play the conservative-as-victim game. great. well, that totally changes how i view the situation. well played. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 08-24-2010 at 10:36 AM..

08-24-2010, 10:50 AM	#248 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i don't remember anyone saying all conservatives are participating in these demonstrations, in these actions---but there's no doubt that alot of conservatives ARE participating in it. but i imagine that those who aren't participating are kinda pissed off. where are they? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-24-2010, 11:53 AM	#250 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Can someone post a political ad from a Republican nominee who is running on a non-alarmist, moderate platform? I haven't seen one. This can only lead me to believe that the majority of Republican voters are motivated by these issues. So while I sympathize with appeals from Republican voters who are not of that ilk, I can't help but be left with the impression that they do not have a voice in their party at the moment. This should give pause to anyone who enjoys the rational idea of an America where everyone is (essentially) free. I've been slowly watching a 10-part documentary on NYC for the past several weeks and it's striking to note how the resistance to the city's enormous influx of immigrants seemed to really heighten and seethe at times of economic crisis and war - sometimes resulting in terrible violence. I can't help but think we are experiencing yet another wave of this same sort of race-based apprehension in America right now. Not that I necessarily believe that there will be lynchings in the streets any time soon, but since when is a little bit of evil ok? __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce Last edited by mixedmedia; 08-24-2010 at 11:54 AM.. Reason: clarification

08-24-2010, 10:26 AM	#245 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	[goatfucker] But...but...but...Ron Paul! Racist Loonytarian Teabagger conservative joke from TEXAS for God's sake! He can't POSSIBLY be supporting the rights of Muslim Americans! He can't POSSIBLY be calling people out on their collectivist bullshit! He just...CAN'T! He's WHITE and CONSERVATIVE! [/goatfucker]

08-24-2010, 10:37 AM	#247 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	If I was trying to change how you see the situation, I'd have given up a long time ago. The entire point of that "drive by," as you put it, was to point out that the Conservative wing of American politics is neither as monolothic, nor as uniform, as many folks would like. It makes it a lot easier to imagine Conservatism as a giant pastiche of racism and revenge fantasies and argue against -that-, but that doesn't make it accurate. -That- was my point. That and getting a chance to use "Goatfucker" again, since "Teabagger" now seems to be back on the menu around here.

08-24-2010, 11:59 AM	#251 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	mix, I don't think either party represents my viewpoints at all only some. what documentary is that? __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

08-24-2010, 12:21 PM	#252 (permalink)
Wes Mantooth Junkie Location: Tennessee	Yup I've felt left behind by both parties for...well most of my life. I guess maybe I wasn't left behind so much as just not able to find a proper fit. I have a hard time identifying with either party and watching them fight over issues like this, to me, is just beyond pathetic. Hungry ticks attaching themselves to the underbelly of this story in a sad attempt to get attention and votes, its disgusting. Never the less for every talking head, out of touch politician jumping and average Joe jumping all over this as the hot button du jour the level headed and rational still exist on both sides. Sadly they just seem to get lost in the mindless din and forgotten about at the polls. Controversy sells. __________________ “My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”

08-24-2010, 12:32 PM	#253 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	well fine...that means that none of you folk are out there for these xenophobic little demonstrations. but there are people who participate and they operate in the name of conservatism--they take it over, they rebrand it. i would hope that they're doing conservatism alot of damage as well, but that's just me. thing is that--again--i don't understand why there's no conservative push-back on this. why no conservative counter-demonstrations? why so few national level conservatives denouncing this neo-fascist turn? speaking as someone well to the left of alot of folk here, there's a side of me that's content to watch the right eat itself. but there's also the scenario that alarms me of political paralysis (which the republicans have been working on, which the tea party promises to only make more systematic) and economic crisis (27% drop in housing sales for the last month anyone? just saying, as an example--indicators or realities can come flying out of nowhere) combine as these neo-fascists give the appearance of a mass movement (and fascisms everywhere give the impression of being such a movement until they get into power, at which point they can remake themselves into a mass movement by fusing with the state and systematizing the violence that's implicit in strategies of exclusion)... that said, though: where are all these alienated conservatives? is this alienation ok with you? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-24-2010, 12:51 PM	#254 (permalink)
Cimarron29414 Still Free Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!	Regarding Posts 239 and 240: Opposing the building of a mosque within a one square mile radius in one city is not exactly the same as supporting the rounding up of all the Islamic, brown people and moving them to the old Japanese internment camps. I think you guys are letting your imaginations get the better of you - vilifying to the extreme. Just as a reminder, I do not oppose the building of the mosque. I think the notion is tacky, but I don't oppose it. __________________ Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." Last edited by Cimarron29414; 08-24-2010 at 01:12 PM..

08-24-2010, 01:04 PM	#256 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	for what it's worth, cimmaron, there is no mosque being built at or next to the giant hole in the ground. and if you want tacky, you should check out the "Ground Zero" souvenir industry. nothing leads americans in general to explosions of bad taste quite the way memorials do, particularly when they get a bit of that jingo powder mixed in like kool aid. but i digress. if we were collectively to start banning stuff on the grounds of tackiness tho...we might get along better because it'd be fun, but there'd be a whole lot of stuff that'd disappear. i don't think anyone's confusing the mounting racist climate directed against muslims that's building of this fake ground zero meme with the more actively racist stuff that's playing out in aridzona and, more recently, florida (at the level of draconian law at least). for myself, i react more strongly to the islamophobia because of the network of folk i'm close to personally in meat-space. it concerns me that it's nauseating and freaking out people i love. what's happening in arizona is to me more objectively foul, if you know what i mean. they seem to me of a piece, almost connected: the same kind of ultra-rightwing political sensibility. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-24-2010, 01:11 PM	#257 (permalink)
Cimarron29414 Still Free Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!	Woah, I was referencing the Japanese internment camps from WWII when I said that. Your reply made me realize it could be taken as rounding up illegals in Arizona. Hmmmm, I'm going to go edit that post. Sorry, for the confusion. ....To go on, I suppose tacky might not be the best word. Perhaps, lack of sensibility? It's such a complicated mix of emotions for those involved, but they are only emotions - which is where rule of law steps in and where their right to build is absolute. Having said all of that, I would challenge those who oppose it to tell me what an acceptable range is? 3 blocks? 4? How far out does the intolerant outrage reach? Perhaps we should string up a "Caution, no muslims allowed" tape around the circumference of intolerance, just so "they" will know where they can apply for building permits. Oooh, oooh! Or use some of those "Your stimulus money at work" signs to post around the "green zone"...er..."red, white, and blue zone?" __________________ Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." Last edited by Cimarron29414; 08-24-2010 at 01:26 PM..

08-24-2010, 01:11 PM	#258 (permalink)
Wes Mantooth Junkie Location: Tennessee	I think the problem is that at the end of the day issues like the Mosque just aren't that important to a lot of people out side of something to talk about around the water cooler or on a message board, why protest something you just don't care about one way or the other? People are going to support a party they can identify with and for some that, for better or worse, is the Republican party. The average person just doesn't put that much time and energy into thinking about the latest hot button issue because they either don't have the time or simply don't care, when you're trying to scratch out a living and support a family these issues just stop carrying the weight some like to put behind them. So whats the average right of center minded person supposed to do? Vote Democrat? Throw away a vote on a third party? Of course not, they support the party that gives them the best chance of getting the government and policies they want regardless of weather or not they disagree with them on certain issues. __________________ “My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”

08-24-2010, 02:44 PM	#260 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	even so, it's sometimes good to be reminded of certain things we all know, one way or another. like what martin niemoller said in 1946: "THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. THEN THEY CAME for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. THEN THEY CAME for me and by that time no one was left to speak up. and what no passaran refered to at. say, the siege of madrid (1936 for those keeping score at home). i've repeated it a bunch and would much rather be on to something else because there's lots of things to be interested by in the world. this does not interest me: it repulses. these people are neo-fascists. straight up. they dont have power and are kinda clowns, but the history that they align with---whether you like it or not---is littered with people who seemed like clowns. i think they should be actively opposed. it's not ok that the tea party---particularly not this manifestation of it, this racist dimension---gets such sweetheart coverage on faux news. it's not ok that there is an ideological infrastructure that is able to perpetuate and extend the reach of this reactionary business. it's not ok that there is an institutional frame that sees playing with this neo-fascism something that might be a tactical advantage. this situation is not ok. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 08-24-2010 at 02:50 PM..

08-24-2010, 03:22 PM	#261 (permalink)
Wes Mantooth Junkie Location: Tennessee	"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. THEN THEY CAME for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. THEN THEY CAME for me and by that time no one was left to speak up." I've always loved this quote and I wish more people would take it to heart (maybe we can slap this on front lawn of court houses instead of the 10 commandments) because they would care more about issues that don't immediately have any impact them (and I'm as guilty of that as the next guy...but I do try). BUT that doesn't really reflect the average person in my opinion and at the end of the day, for most, issues that have a direct impact on their lives will always trump issues that don't. In turn stuff like the ground zero mosque will be allowed to fester and grow while they worry about voting in somebody who will lower taxes (or whatever). Then again our history here in the US is riddled with issues like this and no matter how ugly they seem to get at the height of the controversy we seem to do an okay good job at getting them worked out in the end. As troubling as some of this is, perhaps its not the worst idea in the world to just leave it alone and let those involved play it out. Facing an issue head on, getting our deepest thoughts and fears out on the table now, no matter how irrational might go a long way in getting people to think about it, learn from it and work on creating a better world tomorrow. Sometimes looking at raw ugliness right in the face can get people to realize that the values and beliefs they hold need to change. __________________ “My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”

08-24-2010, 06:45 PM	#268 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Note the smiley, folks. (I couldn't find a tongue-in-cheek smiley, sorry.) It was my idea of a sardonic dig on stats relating to people's values and opinions on a large scale. I've seen too many tonight, I think, and I went overboard. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

08-25-2010, 03:50 AM	#270 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	interesting, dogzilla. so that poll repeated the terms specific to the conservative fiction that's replaced the reality of an islamic center that's to be built a few blocks from the center of the world trade center souvenir business. and it is about the power of framing, i'd say. once again the conservative media apparatus manufactures a story. they manufacture a way to package that story (patricia geller, fascist blogger with an islam Problem) and then the well-funded populist conservative media-space repeats that manufactured story ad infinitum. it makes its way into the mainstream press as a manufactured item initially, then as a Problem with the ultra-right---look at those racists and what they're doing---but the repetition seems to eventually acquire its own tipping point. btw ramussen polls are done nightly. they're as shallow as shallow can be. what you're seeing with the results is bounce-back of a television signal. but hey, those results may be laughable but they makes the tea party's racism look like its just part of a more general racism. so therefore it must be ok to be racist. q.e.d., yes? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 08-25-2010 at 03:53 AM..

08-25-2010, 05:39 AM	#272 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i think this is primarily an ultra-right issue. if you look at the actual history of it--you know, what actually happened, how this "issue" came to be packaged as it now is--and there's a salon article i posted earlier in the thread that does exactly that---you will see, that this is story is entirely of conservative manufacture. and for the record, i have mostly contempt for the democratic party. collectively, it's only consistent virtue is that it's not republican and not part of the conservative media-space that you, for example, seem to inhabit thoroughly. i am personally neither interested in nor surprised by various democrats saying nonsense about this "issue"...alot of those same heroic democrats caved in before the bush administrations entirely fabricated cases for war too. centrists. no spine at all. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-25-2010, 09:41 AM	#273 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Why don't the Democrats milk wedge issues close to elections like Republicans do? Am I missing that somehow?

08-26-2010, 12:02 PM	#274 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I like this simple, straightforward look at how this issue really is vs. what the astroturf protesters seem to think.

08-26-2010, 12:48 PM	#277 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	neo-fascism concerns me. maybe it doesn't concern you. i dunno. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-26-2010, 01:19 PM	#278 (permalink)
Wes Mantooth Junkie Location: Tennessee	Seems like business as usual to me, has there ever been a in a time in the US when some group or minority wasn't demonized and mistreated? Considering our past the treatment Muslims in the this country since 9/11 has been breath of fresh air (well maybe not fresh air...a little less dank and moldy perhaps). At least these idiots aren't in the majority, at least we haven't passed laws baring Muslims from running for office, we haven't rounded them up and put them in camps...the mosque/community center will probably get built and if it does it just goes to show that those protesting really have no power over anything and legally its just noise. As sad as this may sound our country might be making progress when it comes to dealing with minorities, and things that are "different". Who knows in a few generations we might actually collectively move past this stuff all together. Imagine if this whole Muslim/Mosque thing was being debated 50 years ago. I would think...well for one Barack Obama would be nowhere near the White House...but the numbers being sighted in most polls would probably be light years higher and the fallout much, much uglier. __________________ “My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”