murp0434

check this out


Washington Times - Obama supports union organizing

well it looks as though this is going to happen. Having worked in both union and non-union jobs, I personally am very much against unions. I don't see the point other than to take a little of your money in return for ....nothing (in my experience). Now, as a manager of a non-unionized manufacturing facility, this bill really scares me. All union organizers have to do is convince a simple majority of your workers to sign off on "union cards" which constitute a vote. There is no open forum, no private ballot and no way to change your mind (like there is now). Seems like it pretty much gives free reign to union organizers to come in and establish a union without a manager even knowing. Plus it forces the union on the other half of the employee group that didn't even necessarily vote for, on or even want or know about the possible unionization.

We can all look at Detroit or the airline industry for inspiring stories of the incredible workers' unions...

Basically I completely agree with this quote: it "take[s] away the protection of a private ballot, giving union organizers free rein to publicly pressure workers into signing cards stating support for a union."

One more thing...

YouTube - Changes


Anyway those are my thoughts. What do y'all think?

__________________
These are the good old days.


How did I become upright?

filtherton

Meh. I'm indifferent. Everybody I know whose in a union benefits from it.

Willravel

I was watching TV a few weeks back, just wondering through the channels. There wasn't much on, and I was about to go run errands when I came across something on LinkTV about a strippers' union. Being a fan of both the ladies and an underdog story, I watched.

The story of the documentary followed a young woman named Julia. She had turned to stripping to make ends meet and in the process had formed srong friendships and admiration for some of the women she worked with, but she also discovered that strippers were being exploited (other than in they way they were consenting to). The club owners were starting to charge stage fees, essentially charging the women to work, and they were refusing to do anything about sexual abuse. They were even being videotaped without their knowledge. Clearly, it was not the best environment to be an exotic dancer. Instead of quitting an industry that was basically corrupt and exploited wherever you look, she decided to fight it. In response to the horrible conditions, some of the dancers contact the Service Employees International Union. The strip club owners then hire a union-busting attorney.

I ended up enjoying the narrative a great deal. It was a perfect example of some situations where unionization is absolutely, positively necessary in preventing the abuse and exploitation of workers. In the end, the women are able to form a union and get real, positive changes made.

I believe it was called "Live Nude Girls Unite!", in case you're curious.

dc_dux

One could suggest that this is a misrepresentation of the Employees Free Choice Act or at least is heavily influenced by the company side of the argument. No surprise for a Washington Times article.

Currently, if a set minority of employees (25-30%) express an interest in organizing, the NLRB could be called in to organize and supervise an election...a process that can take months.

Pressure on workers comes from both sides....or maybe you believe intimidation of workers only happens on one side (hint: IMO, it is often the side that can hire/fire/promote/reprimand, etc -- i.e. the company/employer).

During those months after 25-30% express interest in voting on unionizing, the employer can (and have) pull workers aside, one on one to "dissuade" the worker through intimidation tactics, threaten workers with replacement if they do unionize and strike at some future point in time, claim that a union would result in forcing the workplace to go out of business, etc.

Under the EFCA, a secret ballot would still be required if a majority of employees choose that method over the card check.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ASU2003

Unions have their place. But they need to be watched too.

When they only form for financial reasons, they tend to not be as effective. Though, I wonder if a union would go on strike if the CEO got a huge bonus, but the workers didn't get any bonuses?

dc_dux

In another labor victory, particularly for women who have faced pay discrimination with little recourse, among the first bills passed by the House last week were the Paycheck Fairness Act and the Lilly Leadbetter Fair Pay Act that closed the loopholes in a recent USSC decision that affirmed that discrimination suits had to be filed within 90 day of the alleged act (too bad if a woman was the subject of pay discrimination for years but didnt find out until the 91st day after the last "unfair" paycheck.

Equal Pay Bills Pass House -- Courant.com

Senate passage is expected as is Obama's signature.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

What should the relationship be between an employer and an employee? Should the relationship be "at-will", meaning the employee has a right to work or not work for the employer and the employer has a right to employ or not employ the employee at will? the assumption many have is that the employer has all or most of the power. This is far from the truth. And passing legislation based on this assumption is going to be harmful to American business and costly to American consumers. It is very difficult for employers attract and retain good qualified employees. Good employers will do what is needed to maintain a good workforce. Bad employers won't. I would suggest people spend more time and effort seeking out good employers rather than trying to force bad employers to become good. Or perhaps employees should enhance their marketable job skills so they can work for good employers.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

tisonlyi

Yes, quite so, the solution to the iniquities in the world, is to seek out those parts of this world which already are the best of all possible worlds. Don't even think of trying to improve the bad parts, it's futile of course and terribly counter-productive. Look at those horribly inefficient, 3rd world countries of Scandinavia, Europe, Japan, etc that have these disgusting 'labour laws' with those capricious, malevolent 'unions' who do nothing all day but work consciously towards their evil aims of 'fairness'...

Do they not realise that he who is placed from on high above them, their Master, his word is law! Madness!

Truly, the only ends to their misguided efforts is the end of this, the best of all possible worlds!

What? Not everyone has the means to ignore all but the very best of all possible job offers with the very best of all possible employers? No sir! That is insanity!

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

aceventura3

In some circumstances, like with a rotten apple, you need to get rid of the rotten apple. It can not be saved. If you try to keep the rotten apple with the good one's, they may all become useless. In other circumstances the bad will become good if survival depends upon it, but if you set the bar so low that survival does not depend on being good, then every participant goes down to the minimum standard.

I don't understand how you came to your conclusion based on what I wrote. Hopefully I have clarified my position.



You think the goal of a union is fairness? Why would you think a union would stop at fairness, if they could get more? An employer will attempt to exploit labor, but labor will attempt to exploit an employer given an opportunity. Don't you agree with that?

I have never considered an employer my "master", have you? If not, what is your point?

Let's count to ten and think this through. What is different today, than let's say 75 years ago when unions were desperately needed? Today compared to then we have:

Social Security, IRA's and 401 (K)'s for retirement planning.
OSHA work place safety
EEO for work place discrimination
Child labor laws
Worker' Compensation for work place injuries
Minimum wage law.
Overtime laws
Break time regulations
Unemployment compensation
COBRA

This is just to name a few things that are now part of law that unions had to fight for back in the day.

What do unions fight for now? Political clout, power, and to get bigger? Noble causes? Times have changed.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

tisonlyi

There are good and bad unions just as there are good and bad companies. Unions and unionisation does not immediately and necessarily lead to uncompetitive organisations and excessive exploitation of management/capital.

Unions, in addition to campaigning for ongoing progression in the cause of workers, also form an adequate counter-weight to undue, capricious or hasty actions by management.

I once worked for the Civil Service in the UK, joined the union because it was required and was glad to have done so when, in direct contradiction to the advertisement for a specific position, the management unilaterally decided that they were no longer paying said bonus.

Without Union; Me vs Civil Service.
With Union; Me + Union vs Civil Service.

I got my bonus, after a fight.

Also, what makes you think workers in good companies, in danger of being excessively exploited - which does happen, granted - would be rushing to alter their splendid relationship with their employer?

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

aceventura3

I agree.

In some cases the above is true. In some cases unions protects incompetent or unproductive workers. For every example on one side of the issue, there are examples on the other.

There may have been other remedies. For example if the ad was a false inducement that caused you damages you may have had recourse through a labor board or through the courts. My point is that companies that make a habit of that type of behavior won't last long in terms of attracting talented employees. So, yes the union may have helped but there may have been other ways to avoid the problem or get the bonus promised.


A job is not a marriage in my opinion. As Zig Zigler would say, always keep your saw sharp - meaning to always maintain the skills/tools you use to make your living - if you do you always land on your feet. See you at the top.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Derwood

you seem to be unfairly judging all unions based on the handful of very powerful ones

in most cases, the unions exist to make sure those rules and regulatory bodies you listed continue to work for the laborers.

tisonlyi

Not all companies need, want or could function with well-skilled employees. Not all employees are in a position to defend themselves through the courts. Not all employees can afford to take on their employers at all.

In short, there are too many circumstances where unions are useful to make it intolerably difficult to set them up. A simple majority seems fine, and if members of staff want to leave the union, then that's up to them, of course.

There are always pluses and minuses, but overall, especially in medium+ organisations, the benefits outweigh the negatives IMHO. The balance of interests and managerial power versus individual considerations are too far out of kilter

I _believe_ that the law in the UK is different for companies with under 50 employees in regard to union representation, etc. I'd be amazed if there was no provision for small business in the proposed USian law.
-----Added 16/1/2009 at 02 : 11 : 48-----
That's all well and good, until fate jumps in and fucks you in the ass.

Me @ 23, doing all as you suggest, thinking along similar lines... Diagnosed with a very rare cancer (so rare that stats on survival were... unreliable at the least, 50/50 survival after 5 years was the best guess - try living with that uncertainty everyday) and had my face disfigured a few times over several years. Mental instability followed (as it does in a VERY large portion of serious diseases/incidents) and that careerist path was completely derailed.

Ayn Rand is wonderful, if everything repeatedly goes your way.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

aceventura3

I presented my statements as questions. I do not really know what roles unions have today or what they are fighting for. Do you know?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Derwood

I know what the unions in my field are fighting for, but not much beyond that. The union members in my field (and I'm not one of them) are in unions to ensure a standard of pay, rules concerning breaks and work times, and to contract work with certain companies.

aceventura3

Keep your head up and do the best to stay positive.
-----Added 16/1/2009 at 02 : 34 : 33-----
So the union is like an agent without the 10% commission but instead union dues. Should I have the right to negotiate my own deal without the union? I would say yes. What would Obama and the Democrats say?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

tisonlyi

Unions and opportunities created by regulation are more helpful than platitudes.

Still, thanks.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

aceventura3

I think unions proved to be an invaluable tool for labor during the industrial revolution. Union efforts resulted in some very power work place legislation that was needed to balance the power between labor and employers. However today I think the role or need for unions no longer exists or has materially changed. The work place has evolved, employee needs have evolved, I think many people are holding on to unions like a child holds on to a security blanket. Both are false senses of security.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Derwood

not agents exactly. it's more about locking certain venues into having x% of union labor. the % varies depending on venue size, location, etc.

in this particular instance, one is allowed to work in non-union venues, but it's generally frowned upon if you work at a "union gig" under a different agreement than the approved union contract, if that makes sense

murp0434

For once I agree with Ace here.

The only example I can use is my own real-life experience.

At my plant we already pay above average for our area and have above-average benefits for our area. Locals drop off applications every day. Many of our employees are long-term 10-year +, 20-year+, 30 year + employees. NOW that being said...

one of the main benefits of a union is that those who are tenured get better pay. That is to say, those with higher seniority. I have two employees in particular who have been in the same position for 30 years with no more than a 3% annual raise. They are content to stay in this position (we've asked numerous times). However, a unionized plant would have us moving these employees into the highest-paid position in the plant b/c they are the most senior, even though they may not be the most qualified or even desire it. Why?

Additionally, I disagree with the simple majority clause. If 51 people in the plant want a union, and sign the cards, then the plant is union. Union reps come to the plant, pressure everyone to join who initially didn't want to, and stir up other related trouble in order to "negotiate" with mgt to pay even better wages and even better benis when the fact is we pay better than everyone else around (50 mile radius - I did the wage survey myself)...my question is WHY? Unions are outdated and unnecessary. At least in my line of work (manufacturing). We as a country already manufacture much more than we need in the hopes of keeping people employed...but that is another thread I suppose.

__________________
These are the good old days.


How did I become upright?

Derwood

So every "union organizer" is some trouble maker who is out to get The Man? Doubtful.

Baraka_Guru

One of my college instructors for business management claimed that most unions are a result of bad management.

I can't imagine a union being formed in a workplace that is well managed.

Here, I think we are overlooking the most common role of unions today: collective bargaining on issues such as pay, working hours, and working conditions. Unions are meant to give workers power within reach of the power of management.

In many cases, unions make it easier for workforces to enact the powers within legislated workers' rights.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Seaver

I've never been anti-union until I moved to Chicago.

I will never join a union and expect about as much from Unionized Workers as a retarded monkey.

I'm sure there are good Unions out there... but my experience with Unions are they are a way for people to get paid to not work (and prevent you from doing the work in order to get it done in a timely manner).

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Derwood

what line of work have you run into this problem?

Seaver

I work in foodservice, operations and sales. I floated between 5 different warehouses in 5 cities in Texas (all non-union), never had any problem. Here in Chicago the warehouse is all union. They wait until we have an order which needs picked to take their breaks. They pick/load the product onto the trucks, and I've had 1 day in 1.5 years in which they actually were counted correctly (usually only 100 pieces, not rocket science). When the trucks are not loaded with accurate count, we must wait until the warehouse workers get off break (as they wait until we show up with mispicks) and then a 15 min union sanctioned meeting (where absolutely nothing is discussed... it's just a 2nd 15min break).

My employees are commission, not hourly. It drives me up the wall we must waste time in the morning due to other people's mistakes... and again when we try to get them to correct this. I went and picked 1 piece from the shelf 10ft from me when they told me I would have to wait 2hours before they could get someone to pick it... and they had a walkout the next day as I violated Union contract.

Under contract, each mis-pick results in a write up to the Union employee. However, as the Union protested the high level of write ups.. the complaints are simply tossed in the trash.

We leave the Union warehouse in a couple months... and no one can wait for it. Also, the new company which purchased us promises to fire each warehouse worker if they attempt to unionize as they see what it causes.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Derwood

with all due respect, those workers are retards and give unions a bad name

TheNasty

And yet, we continually read or hear stories with the exact theme.

It must be easy to dismiss cases like these as outliers.

This isn't really an argument for or against letting Unions exist. Under current laws Unions exist and are thriving.

This is legislation to make Unions even more powerful. Knowing the current market place, do we need this, or are Unions fulfilling their function as intended under the current laws?

From all the personal experiences I've read over many different forums, it seems to me that Unions already are doing the task they are intended to do, in many different areas of the economy. What is the reasoning to giving them even more power?

Why should this be seen as anything other than an Obama administration tipping its' hat to a group that helped him get elected?

tisonlyi

Some bosses/investors/criminals/bankers/politicians/unionised workers/human beings game the system to their own advantage. What time is the news?

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

filtherton

That is why I don't support anything.

murp0434

AFL/CIO gave millions to the obama campaign. nothing else can be expected.

HOWEVER

let it be duly noted that at this current time only 7% of workers are unionized in the US...compared to 50% in the 1950s and 30% in the 1970s...



That's a bullshit excuse for apathy

__________________
These are the good old days.


How did I become upright?

filtherton

I know it's bullshit. It's also bullshit to write off all unions because some of them were naughty.

dc_dux

Its certainly bullshit to suggest that only unions are naughty or use intimidation tactics in labor negotiations.

The history of employer/company abuses of workers and denial of basic collective bargaining rights is far greater.
-----Added 18/1/2009 at 11 : 46 : 16-----
When Obama signs the Paycheck Fairness Act and the Lilly Leadbetter Fair Pay Act will that be "tipping his hat" to women voters or correcting an injustice that had been codfied into law and affirmed by the Supreme Court that limited the rights of women who were the victims of pay discrimination?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

roachboy

the existing union structures have been more or less crippled by the rearrangement of manufacturing that's happened over the past 30 years or so. this was and remains intertwined with the development and collapse of neoliberalism, which opposes all forms of organization outside the military and other instruments of repression, and which advocated a radical narrowing of the field of political action.

what's been amazing about it is the extent to which the ideological correlates of neoliberalism have become part of the cognitive apparatus of so many americans, who are not persuaded that being powerless and atomized is somehow preferable to being organized and taking power from capital through local conflict/interaction with capital.

the present situation of american trade-unions is also intertwined with the particular history of the union movement in the united states, which was about attempting to make unions as non-political as possible by developing a sector-monopoly model. fear, always fear, was a primary motive--fear of pluralism translating fear of evil marxist language translating as fear of the left.

you reap what you sow.

i think unions represent an important tool for self-organization on the part of folk who sell their labor power for a wage. i think that anything which encourages that organization is good--but i wonder if american union activists will find themselves boxed in by the history of the american union movement, taking it as not a particular history but as a necessary and inevitable part of union organization in general. this would follow from parochialism, from a lack of awareness of transnational history, which enables folk to relativize american history as a particular model full of consequences following from choices that were not and are not necessary and which produced a situation in the context of which the union movement in the states could have been crippled by neoliberalism because the unions came to be duplicates of an older, outmoded organizational model and could not adapt to what we call globalizing capitalism.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Tully Mars

Oh, come on MAN! Can't you see it's all one sided. The world really is black and white- Good v. Evil et el. It us verses them... always... and forever. And we're always right, who ever 'we" are. We are the right ones and they are the wrong ones. Period. End of story.

In some odd twisted way I think both sides try to keep these thoughts going in some odd, twisted strategy to win battles and in the end hopefully the war. I think, at times, both sides loose sight of who the causalities are or they simply don't care. It's become all about winning. All about being "right." Or maybe it's like the "war on drugs" and the "war on terror" it's just a self fueling never ending means to a means. No end, just means.

In all honesty I'm hopeful more now then before that there is a hint of a chance. Maybe it's a slim chance with a narrow window but it's seems like there's a perfect storm brewing that things could change for the better. But the first step has to be getting the country gets out of it's Us v. Them mindset. Least I think that's the first step. Maybe we're the drug addict that's hit rock bottom and there no where to turn but to each other to climb back out of the holes we've dug.

I see it going that way or each side's just going to go back to seeking bigger shovels.
-----Added 18/1/2009 at 12 : 53 : 00-----
I missed this, classic.

In a way it reminds me of Clark Griswold's classic, yet longer rant, from the movie Christmas Vacation-

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Seaver

OR it could be I will forever refuse to join a Union because I can make it better on my own skill and dedication than handed to be simply by the amount of time I invest.

I became a manager with my company within 6 months of joining, where many management spent 15-20years. This happened because I busted my ass every day. I was more accurate, more structured, and required less attention by my managers than anyone else. For every work day I worked upwards of 12 hours a day, with no overtime pay, because I was taught that hard work would pay off. It did.

If I had joined a Union, not only would I have been pressured not to go above and beyond, there would be no hope for a fast promotion as they are almost entirely seniority based.

I'm willing to put in the extra time and effort, therefore I'm 10x better off going it alone without paying dues to another fat cat. I've not been taught that being "powerless and atomized" is preferable, I've been taught that I can more or less control my own destiny by taking the reigns.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

roachboy

what the difference in our respective positions comes down to is a version of a very old debate about whether the interests of working folk are or are not the same as those of the holders of capital.
i tend to think that they're not the same, particularly when i'm in historian mode.

but it's hard to say why your lat post needed the quote from my earlier one, seaver.
you could have made the point without it, so i'm wondering if you could say more about the way in which it is a response to it.
just curious.

what'll be interesting is the way in which union organization will have to change in order to adapt to a quite different way of organizing production than obtained during the 30s-early 50s, which was the period of ascendancy of what was the american union model.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Locobot

Really interesting reading the different experiences people have had, thanks for sharing Seaver and tisonlyi. Seaver how would your experiences have been different if you had a family to support while you were putting in your 12 hour days? (I think I know enough to assume you didn't then).

Seaver

I didn't. Instead of devoting my time with my family, I had the option to devote the time to myself. In essence I could go home and play videogames, or work an extra 1/2 day. That is something other people couldn't do. However, they got to go home to a bunch of people who loved them unconditionally... I had my X-Box.

This worked much the same as college. I put in a lot of time and effort for a period of time and was rewarded. I wouldn't have put in that time if I was not chasing the promotion, which is why I'm against seniority based unions. It kills all drive and desire to do more for the company.

When I finally have a family I'll be a couple promotions in and be much higher on the hog so I won't have to work those 12hour days anymore.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

dc_dux

seaver.....your work ethic and ambition are to be commended.

But not every worker can become a manager.

There is no workplace without the worker bees and in many manufacturing and service industries, these worker bees, including those with the least education and experience and many of whom are recent immigrants, are often the least likely to fully understand their basic rights in the workplace and the process for ensuring that those rights are not abused.

The question that remains is who will represent their interests w/o a union? The company?

That being said, I agree that many unions have over reached and need to rethink their role in the workplace.
-----Added 20/1/2009 at 07 : 59 : 06-----
I support the Employee Free Choice Act.

I could be convinced that it is not necessary if other safeguards were in place to prevent employer intimidation of workers seeking to organize or protect workers' rights.

From a purely political perspective, while the EFCA was probably not a major factor in voter choice in the recent election, IMO, it is still a loser issue for Republicans...unless they want to continue to turn off minority voters and a swing demographic group -blue color white voters.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Tully Mars

There's also the flip side of Seaver's experience. I'm glad it worked out for him but I've not only seen that backfire I've had it back fire on me. While in the Navy I worked my ass off while assigned to the "general work shop" of my ship. We were in charge of fixing everything from broken ladder railings to clogged toilets. I worked my ass off for a couple reasons. I knew the guy in charge of running the shop was leaving and the more I kept busy the faster the time flew by. Basically I'm happier keeping busy then sitting around doing nothing. When the PIC (petty officer in charge) did leave there was a big meeting with the Chiefs, Senior Chiefs and the Lt. regarding who was going to take over the shop. It really came down to me and another E-5, we were the only two guys with the needed time in rate for the position. I thought it was a no brainer, the other guy spent his days drinking coffee, nursing hang overs and dodging work chits. The guy would disappear with an hour tops work chit and not be seen again until the end of the day. When they announced the position I was stunned. I went up to a Sr. Chief I knew pretty well and politely said "WTF!" He explained to me that they decided he was safest sitting at a desk handing out work chits, if nothing else then they'd know where he was all day. That and I was producing so much that it just made sense. I told him I thought that was complete bullshit. I work my ass off and he does jack shit yet gets the much need supervisory skills in his service record making it easier for him to make E-6. Me- I go back to unclogging toilets. Within a month or two I was assigned a desk job as the supply petty officer for my division. Which beat cleaning toilets but didn't get me the needed supervisory check mark in my service jacket. I left the Navy an E-5 about a year later. Then I left the other guy was an E-6.

I've seen variations of that same thing happen several places, from fast food restaurants to court house offices. Bottom line, as DC points out- someone has to be the worker bee.

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club