Charlatan

I have been avidly reading the machinations of the Canadian Parliament over the weekend.

Last week Harper's Minister of Finance, Jim Flaherty put forward an interim budget meant to provide stimulus to the economy. Instead, he presented what was a very partisan budget. The opposition parties didn't like what they saw and threatened to vote no confidence and bring down the government that was brought into power only a few week's ago.

So does this mean we are heading for another election? You would think so, but no so fast. The Liberals and the NDP (with the support of the Bloc) have suggested that they will approach the Governor General with the idea that they will form a coalition government.

I have just been watching as the news articles have been flowing in... It looks like this is going to happen.

The plan sees the Liberals with 75% of the cabinet positions and the NDP 25%. It also appears that Dion, the current leader of the Liberals, will *not* be the PM. Instead, Michael Ignatief will be voted into leadership by the Liberal caucus. In a last minute deal that would have seen Ignatief scuttle the coalition (he did not like the idea of Dion being PM and has a large amount of support in the caucus), the other leadership candidates agreed to step aside in favour of Ignatief.

The open vote that would have allowed the non-confidence motion was to have happened on Monday but Harper postponed the vote until next week buying himself some time.

If the opposition decides to go through with this, the only thing that should be able to stop them is if Harper suspends the Parliament (he has the power to do this).


What are you thoughts on this? Is this a "coup d'etat" as Harper colours it? Does the fact that the Conservatives only have 37% of the popular vote colour your view of things? Could you support this coalition?


I am not entirely sure how I feel about it except that it sure makes for exciting times. On one hand, I don't like the Harper. On the other, this sets an interesting precedent. One that might not be so palatable with different parties forming the coalition. Regardless, it looks like it will continue to be an interesting year for politics in Canada (even if nobody outside Canada knows about it).

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Leto

If Ignatief did indeed act in such a ballsy manner, then perhaps a Liberal led coalition will be strong enough to take over the government. My view of the Dion is that he is intelligent, but not hard enough to make decisions. Rae? well I remember the mess he made in Ontario, and as intelligent as the guy is I don't want to go down that path again. Even though It may have been a Peterson hang-over, we need a strong (& popular) hand on the tiller. The Conservatives just can't shake the Reform aspect of their party.

This could also provide a stable transition and a fully functional role for the G-G for once.

*by the way, I'm still waiting for Harper's split income changes....

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Sticky

I just want to clear up a few things and then I will add my own opinion.

Here is the most recent article from the CBC on this topic
Liberals, NDP, Bloc sign deal on proposed coalition

The next thing that happened is that the Conservatives backed down on the two major items that the other parties said they had issues with
- The took out the dropping of the $1.95 subsidy per vote each party gets
- The also removed the notion of dissalowing strikes by federal employees for the next x amount of time (I think it was two years)

The conservatives then also decided to deliver their yearly budget a month early - end of January rather than February.

We also found out the this plan was in the works before the issue of this budget (or finance update) came about.


Actually they all agreed that Dion would lead the coalition according to the latest reports.

For now it still seems to be set for Dec. 8 (Monday) acording to the article linked above.

I believe that he can only do this with the approval of the Governor General. The other parties also need the approval of the Governor General in order to for a coalition rather than Canadians heading back to the polls.



Well, who said that Canadian politics were not exciting?

My first thoughts are - the rules are there and this fits within them.
What I don't like is the Governor General deciding what is best for the country. The argument by coalition will be that they represent the majority of Canadians and the argument by the Conservatives will be that in the coming tumultuos times it is not a good idea to have a the country led by a coalition. I just don't like the idea of this being up to an unelected official representing another government.

As to the idea that the Conservatives only got 37% of the vote - definately true but at the same time not a sinlg Canadian (0%) voted for the Liberal-NDP-Bloc coalition.

Had the Liberals and NDP run tegether I am sure that they would have garnered alot of votes and maybe even more than the 37% the Conservatives got. But they did not.
I am not as confident that had the 3 parties run together they would have received that many votes.

Forgetting about the expense of an election for a minute, I wonder if did go to an election would the public be unhappy with the Conservative budget (financial update) and vote them out or would the results remain about the same as they were about a month ago.

I think this is not about what the Canadian people want and need, this is about power and what the parties think they can get away with. This time around it just happens to be the Liberals and the NDP. They think that they can get away with it.
What they are risking, however, is that the Governor General decides not to let them form a coalition and sends the country to an election. If that happens you will see some very unhappy Canadians and they will take it out on the Liberals and NDP.

Oh - One more issue that I have. Should the Governor General allow them to form a coalition government, how do we keep that government in check. They will have a majority of seats but what if they are not effective and can't get anything done becuase of fighting amongst themselves? I don't believe that there is any mechanism for forcing an election.

I just don't like it. I don't like these guys playing around pretending to represent us.

But I am also a guy who like rules. The rules are there and this is allowed. If the Canadian people are unhappy about this then in the end someone will pay.

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Sticky

Some good points in this article:

She could just say no

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Charlatan

The Bloc has agreed to support the coalition in confidence votes until June 2010 and in general votes until June 2009.

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Tully Mars

So what are the odds harper bites it?

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percy

I am not a fan of any of the leaders but I think this move, at this time is absolutely ridiculous. Actually I am outraged that these wannabe misfits think this is good for the country. And to have the treasonous Bloc having a say in the day to day matters of Canada. ....if anyone says they are a proud Canadian and accepts that notion,..go shake your head. You are a disgrace. Unbelievable. These 3 fuckwits couldn't manage a paper bag convention for crying out loud.

If the three stooges wanted a coalition government, they should have decided that before the election, not after. And what happens if the coalition succeeds, and that in a year or 2 the Liberals call an election and receive a minority government. Then what? A coalition between PC, NDP and the Bloc a month after that election. More of the same and nothing gets done. Meanwhile Canada's standing in the world doesn't say "Proudly Canadian" anymore, but rather "Banana Republic."

And worst of all, if a non-confidence vote is taken and stands to topple the government, we have the GG, who is nothing more than a fucking glorified hostess, deciding the fate of the nation. Good Lord, save us all.

It is going to be interesting how western Canada reacts if this coalition is accepted. I am hearing rumblings of separation already.

Charlatan

I have been rolling this around in my head for a while and I am still not sure how I feel about it.

1) What the opposition parties are doing is perfectly legal. This is not a coup. It's not even a new idea. In fact, Harper signed onto an agreement a few year's ago to run a coalition with the support of the NDP and the Bloc should they have have toppled Martin's Liberal government of the day (this is the non-confidence vote that ended with one vote in favour of confidence).

The members of Parliament are servants of the Crown (embodied by the GG). They lead only at the behest of the Crown. If a ruling party does not have the confidence of the house, the Crown can either call an election or ask someone else to form the government. The latter is increasingly likely in the face of a recent election.

While some may say this sucks and is undemocratic... it is is the system we have. If you don't like it, lobby for a Republic, lobby for a system other than one based on Westminster.

2) The Conservatives' stimulus plan. What Finance Minister Flaherty tabled last week was the most partisan document that I've seen come out of the Canadian Parliament in my memory. While Flaherty was the bad man, this was Harper's doing and I place the blame for this current crisis squarely at his feet.

Yes, he's backed down on the some of the more odious bits of legislation BUT he has shown incredibly bad judgement. This sort of behaviour leads to loss of confidence in the house (see: Joe Clarke's short term as PM and the gas tax bill that he put forth that brought him down).

This is the thing. If you are running a minority government, you can't pull these sorts of stunts. You must rule with an ear to the other parties. You cannot rule like a majority government.

3) To the question of democracy. In Canada, we do not vote for the leader of our country. We also do not vote for the party that will rule our country. We vote for local representation... a member of Parliament. It is the party with the most seats that, generally, gets to form the government. But coalitions have formed in the past under Trudeau and Borden. The point here is that *nobody* voted for a Conservative government. Nobody voted for a Liberal government. Nobody voted for an NDP government. You all voted for a representative.

If you don't like this system, lobby to change it.

4) The Bloc. This is the part that makes the coalition hard to stomach. On the one hand, the Bloc is a progressive party. They share many values with the Centre-Left so the fit is reasonable. On the other hand, the Bloc are a separatist party. They would like to see Quebec leave Canada. I personally don't think this is a reality today. The separatists have lost. What the Bloc is today, despite what they say, is a regional party with the interests of one province only (not unlike what the Reform party was at one time).



While I don't see the coalition as an ideal situation, I don't think Harper has shown that he is worthy of the confidence of the house. I say let the coalition take power. Then let the Conservatives elect a new leader. Hopefully their dormant Progressive Conservatives (remember them?) will rise up and shake some sense into the reformists...

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fresnelly

I'm torn too.

I don't like the idea of a coalition government but then I'm pissed that the Conservative put forth such a short sighted and self serving budget. It confirms my fears about how they would run a majority parliament.

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percy

Harper is a disappointment for sure. I had hopes, especially for having a prime minister not from Quebec again, that he may have the leadership traits that encompasses the country, but I think he misses the mark. I think he is very smart and has a plan but his silence and lack of willingness to reach out and explain to people his motives are a detractor. Funny, Chretien was similar in that sense but was never questioned at length or in detail like Harper is. I guess people trusted Chretien but they don't trust Harper.

And the pact that was to involve the PC, NDP and Bloc in 2006 wasn't a coalition. It was a pact to introduce a posibble non-confidence vote. What we have today is a signed coalition of the 3 parties that have agreed to become the government. Big difference.

I hope the coalition doesn't take over. On one hand you have a very pissed off electorate that wants action from it's elected representatives. This will not instill confidence but worse, if a coalition takes place and it becomes the train wreck I think it will become, there will be non-confidence votes in the streets that will slow everything else down leaving not only the government at a standstill, but everything else.

Dion is incompetant,..completely and utterly. Layton is a micromanager who belongs in Alice and Wonderland, not having a hand in governing the country. And Duceppe doesnt give a flying fuck about anything regarding this country as long as the cash flow continues to flow freely into Quebec. Now he is in the ultimate of blackmailing positions because he can virtually ask for a blank cheque or with hold his support. Lovely, billions and billions of more of Canadians money so that we can keep up this ludicrous farce we call unity.

The more I think about it, the more I realize this isn't about one party or the next. It's personal. It's the coalition against Harper. I think they are forcing his card to resign,..because they know the longer he stays, the more danger they are of getting screwwed 10 times worse by him.

Charlatan

And there is the reason the opposition cannot back down. Harper has shown his true colours.

The only way out of this crisis is for Harper to fire Flaherty and resign. As a minority government, the Conservatives should have taken the high road and worked with the Liberals to craft a solid response to the economic crisis. They could still do this but they need to get rid of Harper first.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Leto

All very lucid points Charlatan, and well crafted to shine some non-emotional clarity on the matter.

I would further say that the Conservatives, as they are now, are still a regionally motivated party dominated by Reform ideology. When they blunder so badly, as they did last week, it just demonstrates the lack of savvy and/or shows true arrogance. Not to worry, I think that the Hill does that to people. I was no fan of Trudeau's antics in the late '70's either. And Joe Clark? Well, there was a man with integrity, but poor handlers.

Harper has not only succeeded in uniting the Right, or should I say taking advantage of the decimated PC's and dominating the Right, last week he successfully managed to unite the Left.

The Conservatives need to dump Harper and start fresh. Flaherty (who can believe this guy any more??? weren't the Harris years enough? I can't believe that his constituents elected him, but then again, times were goood back then eh?) has to go too.

What I can't understand is how the Conservatives can mis-manage public sentiment on a continuous basis. They attack penny-ante programmes, and tell us all to sit tight and not worry about the bigger problems. For this they will feel the full effect of our type of democracy.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

CandleInTheDark

If it were for having the possibility of the three children in office this would be funny. While it may not have been savy for Harper to introduce the elimination of government subsidized along with an otherwise excellent economic update, it will be our three stooges who wear the damages. You absolutely cannot vote to continue your own subsidization and expect the people not to be pissed. It is the exact same as if they voted to increase their own salaries.

Now in a Seperatist Coalition, the Liberals are fucked. They voted to continue their subsidies, tried to usurp power with the Bloc as a partner, and are essentially saying "Suck it Westerners" given the fact that they have little support past Kenora. This Coalition is not their salvation, it is their death throes. I am surprised more Liberals don't see it.

As for the fact that this is legal and constitutional well that is certainly true. That doesn't mean it is right. The Conservatives went to the people for a mandate and increased it. Now the Liberals, who were absolutely rejected by the public are attempting to take power. All informal polling suggests that Canadians do not want this Coalition.

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highthief

Here's how I see it:

1) Harper is too stupid to continue breathing, let alone be allowed to run the country. He starts off with a minority government - which means he needed to be concialitory and to create a good working relationship with at least one of the other parties. Instead, he says "fuck you" to the other parties while doing absolutely nothing to help the economy. What a nimrod.

2) The coalition should have gotten together right at the outset (after the election) and done this. They could have formed a government at that time.

3) The Conservatives should dump Harper for his incompetence and replace him with some higher form of mammalian life - the other parties are not strong right now, if Harper goes and someone sensible like Prentice comes in, they'll have half a chance of coming out on top.

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Charlatan

I don't think you understand what the subsidy is meant to do. The subsidy was meant to reduce the impact of corporate money on the parties. You see, a few years back the amount of corporate money available to the parties was reduced to $5,000 per company. To compensate for this, a public subsidy based on votes earned in the election wsa set up. That $5,000 was further reduced by Harper to $1,000.

You cannot kill the subsidy without increasing the funding elsewhere.

Add to this the fact that currently the Liberal Party is in debt while the Conservatives are loaded with cash.

This was a budget that was meant to crush the opposition. It was as partisan as it comes.

As for the "stimulus" part of the package... industry commentators also felt the package was anemic.

__________________
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- Old Man Luedecke

percy

As of today/ tonight the pundits figure the GG will grant the PC's until January. I think that is a sensible thing to do. I have lost a level of confidence in Harper but am willing to see what he can do in a month especially with a first ministers meeting scheduled before a tabled budget. I absolutely don't even want to think of what the coalition will do if they get a chance.

I agree with Candle in the Dark. The majority of Canadians are outraged at all involved, but especially with the coalition, and I think with perfect right to be. It will only hurt them more if they don't work with Harper (assuming Parliament will shut down) more than hurting Harper since all eyes are on him to prove he can do something constructive. If the coalition keeps circling like a pack of wolves, they will all be resigning. The public will make sure of it.

highthief

I don't have a problem with the Coalition, even if I'm not a fan of Dion or the way this has come about or the timing of it.

This is a parliamentary democracy and if I hear one more moron on talk radio say "this is treason" or some such nonsense, I'll snap. Such talk pushes me further away from the Conservative Party, a body which, provincially and federally, I have voted for 5 or 6 times.

Canadians elect Parliaments, not Prime Ministers. If the current Prime Minister loses the confidence of Parliament, Parliament can sit someone else's butt in the big chair.

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Charlatan

Voting for the Conservatives aside I agree with this.

This is the natural progression of a Parliamentary system. Have a look at some of the European Parliaments... they frequently run on coalitions, coalitions that sometimes have opposing parties working together. As we continue to mature as a nation and develop more political parties, this sort of thing is inevitable.

Harper's cries of "treason" and "coup d'etat" are the cries of a desperate man. He fucked up and now he is paying the price.

That said, I have been thinking about the proroguing of the Parliament and while it is probably putting off the inevitable, I am willing to give Harper a month to get his shit together. Take a month and come back with a budget that doesn't make the assumption he is in a majority government. Pay attention to the fact that 2/3 of the nation did not vote for you.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

highthief

I've also voted Liberal, Green and Lemon Party in my time as well, it's not an exclusive arrangement!

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Amaras

Well, here are my 0.02c;

While I didn't vote Conservative, I honestly don't mind Harper as a leader.
At least with him I feel a semblance of leadership qualities and direction.
I'm chagrined that this occurs during the world's present economic downturn,
what with Canada supposedly in a relatively rosy position.
It's within the rules, but still smacks of 3 kids ganging up on one, and
"outvoting" him for a change in a game he was winning. Like all three are
sullen losers, pouting and getting their way.

The stimulus package that so many wanted, I wonder, do we all view that as
a magical solution? I'm a child of the 70's, and while God Bless Pierre Trudeau,
his fiscal policies were only being paid off when Paul Martin was the Finance
Minister, indeed, what is our debt to date, international credit rating, and so on...
Anyone know offhand?

Remember Joe Clark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia?
Not the same thing, but an interesting antecedent, so to speak.

I worry this will hurt our ability to adapt in a cohesive manner, if we are a troika
of vested interests, rather than shaped by just one ideological POV. If nothing
else, they may be pretty bland, sort of like a committee agreeing on a
recipe.

Is anyone ever going to invest in our infrastructure, do anything that will
last more than one news cycle in our National memory?
Is Government even all that relevant? I think so, but then I look at Italy
and say their Vita is still pretty Dolce, n'est pas?

I love living here, I don't want to live in the US, but it would be choice
#4 at this point.

All in all, it is pretty interesting, I look to forward to seeing it unfold.

Do we have a pool on the next election?
I say by next July.

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percy

And also remember that 3/4 of the people didn't vote Liberal, 4/5 didn't vote NDP and 9/10 people didn't vote Bloc.

Sorry. Couldn't resist Charlatan. Just busting your balls a bit.

Elections Canada - National

Charlatan

No worries Percy... I know that too.

The more I am thinking about this, the more I am coming to the conclusion that what we are seeing is Democracy in action. This coalition will represent 2/3 of the voters... in this case Progressive Voters.

The one reason I want to see this happen is that it will show that coalitions are possible and may be a *good* thing for Canada. It's problematic that is is happening at a time when the economy is in trouble but sometimes that's what it takes.

The follow on to this is that if the coalition fucks it up, there won't be another coalition government for *many* years.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

percy

In that spirit, I would feel better if the coalition was Chretien, Broadbent and Bouchard. Wait a minute,..that is who are pulling the strings behind the scenes sans Bouchard isn't it?

I see your point Charletan and I admit it would be interesting to see something different like that,..I just don't like the cast involved. Maybe it's the glow of infered greatness bestowed onto Obama that really casts a pale over our **gulp** leaders.

Tully Mars

You guys watch his speech tonight? I caught it on CTV on my Sat. I'm not sure, seems to me he didn't really say much other then "Hey those guys are worse then me. Give me some time and I'll get this all worked out." I don't know jack about Canadian politics, having enough trouble with the US system. Also found it odd that he taped it and it was released? Is that normal? Or did I just catch a recorded version?

Kind of fun to watch from the outside looking in.

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Martian

Hmm.

Yes, this is exciting times for Canada. The potential embodied in this coalition government is huge. Possibly unprecedented. The stakes, however, are equally huge. Canada has come off relatively light in this global economic downturn so far, but anyone who doesn't think we're teetering on the brink of absolute catastrophe is fooling themselves.

I make no secret of my dislike for Harper. Flaherty is the fallguy on the budget issue, but given Harper's iron fist policy when it comes to his party, I don't think we can really put on the blame on sorry Jim's shoulders.

So who steps up to the plate if Harper resigns? Prentice? Maybe. My impression of Prentice is that he's more of an industry pitbull than anything. As Minister of Industry he refused to advocate for consumer rights, and in the case of cellular providers double dipping on text messaging charges, even implicity condoned abuses by industries in power. Prentice is a minister, and a poor one at that. He is not a party leader.

The Harper government was far too arrogant. I think they expected the opposition to simply roll over and take whatever they put forth, for fear of sparking another election so soon. What I think the Conservatives are failing to realize is that a lot of their support was not due to their own merits, but moreso due to the faults of their opponents. Public opinion of Dion seems to be that he's just this side of useless, and the NDP have never been a viable alternative on the Federal level. What other choice was there? For a lot of Canadians (including, anecdotally, a significant portion of my own riding) the Conservatives were the only real option.

As an aside, it's misleading to say that Canadians vote for representatives. It's true that the Honourable Barry Devolin represents me in Federal Parliament. But that isn't to say that voters don't consider party politics when placing their votes.

So, the exciting thing about this coalition is that it is democracy in action. A minority government by definition does not have the support of the majority of Canadians. When that government acts in bad faith and loses the confidence of the people it represents, it's time for a change. Since we can't agree on an alternative through an election, the coalition is ideally the way to satisfy the majority of Canada. Harper's desperate cries of treason and outrage notwithstanding, I suspect that such an action at least has the potential to steer Canada in the right direction.

I think it's naive to allow an issue like party lines come to the fore at this late date. Canada is on the brink of national crisis, and that must be what our government addresses. Harper's budget showed no intention of doing so in any meaningful way. I reckon it's time to let someone else have a go.

EDIT - Interestingly, immediately after I posted this, this story popped up in my news feed about Saskatchewan premier Brad Wall. The banal: he, like all coalition opponents, raises the separatist bogeyman. The interesting: he suggests that the answer is yet another election. I would think an elected official would have sufficient understanding of the democratic process to understand why an election in February would be a phenomenally bad idea.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Tully Mars

Another election? Very interesting.

As for Harper the only thing I've heard him talk about cutting is funding for campaigning. So campaigns are publicly funded in Canada? And now that his party is in power he wants no more public funding? How much could that actually amount to?

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Martian

The funding isn't for campaigning, precisely.

Political parties in Canada are prohibited from accepting donations from any corporation exceeding $1000 (it was $5000, but Harper reduced it in what, in retrospect, may have been a precursor to this). In order to make up for this and in recognition of the fact that running a political party takes money, each party receives a subsidy of about $2 for every vote they receive. In theory, this means that the public funding received by the parties is in direct proportion to their public support.

Harper now wants to eliminate the subsidies. However, with the exception of his own Conservative party, every party in the House receives the majority of their funds from public financing rather than private donations. That's why this is a blatant and transparently partisan move; it's designed to rob the other parties of funding so that they can't mount an effective opposition.

There are other issues with the proposed budget that are rather dubious, but that is certainly the big ticket item.

Harper is crying foul now like a stuck pig. He realizes the magnitude of his mistake, I think, but doesn't plan on going quietly. He's actually seeking to suspend Parliament now in order to prevent this; the problem is that strictly speaking the power to prorogue Parliament belongs to the Governor General, and he can only suggest it. Historically, the Governor General has followed the Prime Minister's advice, but in this situation Ms. Jean has several options available to her and may choose not to do so.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Tully Mars

Thanks, that makes more of what I'm seeing. I see these news reports on CTV but without a understanding the system some of it doesn't click.

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Charlatan

FYI: The only time that the Governor General did not do what the PM asked was when PM Mackenzie King asked GG Byng to suspend parliament and call and election. Instead, Byng asked the Conservatives to try and form a government. king byng affair

FYI: The total budget for funding the parties is about 26 million dollars. In the big picture, this is not a lot of money.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Tully Mars

The story I saw had Harper making it sound like cutting it out would solve any and all budget problems. I was thinking "how much do you guys spend on bumper stickers?"

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Martian

Based on the number of electors in Canada, the theoretical maximum (including cost of overhead) ought to be somewhere around $50 million. I realize that Canada's budget is much smaller than that of our neighbours to the south, but this is a rather paltry amount even for us. As noted by Charlatan, the actual amount spent is quite a bit less than the maximum.

This move is purely political in nature, and would have virtually no impact on the overall budget.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Tully Mars

Seems like a dumb move on his part. But until he renames french fries and starts calling them freedom fries... by an act of parliament. Well I think we still hold the worlds stupidity record- politically speaking.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Charlatan

It was a massively dumb thing for Harper to do. He took a gamble that the opposition would not risk calling another election only two months after the last one. His leadership style is a centralized one. His ministers do not speak out of turn and policy is directed from his office. This sits squarely on his shoulders.

He has been known as a brilliant strategist.
-----Added 4/12/2008 at 05 : 16 : 36-----
I just saw this interview with Michael Ignatief on YouTube. I haven't been a fan of his but it's nice to see a politician that can speak. Dion's address to the nation was terrible.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Sticky

A few things:
- Jim Flaherty's economic update was not a budget. A few people keep on calling it that. Should it have had more real stuff in it? Sure but it is still not a budget.
- Tully Mars to be completely clear, in proposing to cut the subsidies to the parties Harper's parties subsidies would also be cut.
-Harper leadership style is centralized. In most cases this has helped his cause as he could not trust the people around him from blundering. In this case it was his idea to slip these controversial items in Flaherty's economic update. Layton and Dion, however, are not much different this time. The coalition idea did not come from the members of their party and they did not seek apporval for this coalition from the members in parliament (I just read this this morning. I am trying to find it).


How about John Baird as leader of the Conservatives?

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Sticky The Stickman

Tully Mars

I got that. Just seemed like an bad move. Sounds like "Now that I'm elected in let's make this whole getting elected more difficult.

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

highthief

We've been prorogued.

Don't like it - it subverts Parliamentary democracy.

I'd have liked the GG to have said "OK, we'll prorogue, but you harper have to quit and someone else from the Consevative party has 6 weeks to fix this."

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Sticky

Actually what I find most odd about it is if you look at the US the money from the Right used to be much more than from the left but things have changed. Obama was able to raise multiple times the amount of money that was raised by the republicans.
If this is any sort of North American trend you would expect that while the Conservatives may raise alot of money now that perhaps with a more dynamic leader than Stephane Dion the Liberals, in the future, may see more money being raised for their party.
If this is the case then it would seem shortsighted to cut this subsidy if it may be needed in the future.

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Sticky The Stickman

CandleInTheDark

Quite frankly I will never buy into any argument that a subsidy of political parties is needed. Coercing a person to support a political or moral cause is wrong, and that is exactly what the subsidy is. You can certainly kill subsidies to political parties and NOT increase the handouts they get elsewhere. Let them adapt. Let them argue to the votes to voluntarily submit their 1.95 to the party. The current subsidy, like all subsidies, is tantamount to stealing.

As for the prorouging of parliament, I don't particularly agree with it. I'd rather have had an election as the three stooges which likely to have lost a lot of seats in; or Harper should've handed the reigns to the "Coalition" which would have been just enough rope to hang themselves with.
-----Added 4/12/2008 at 12 : 49 : 28-----
On second thought, I expect the Coalition will implode between now and when parliament resumes so maybe it's for the better. Canadians will get a chance to see how well the three headed turkey walks

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Where there is doubt there is freedom.

Tully Mars

I'm sorry I know I'm asking dumb ass questions here, but my educational system didn't even seem to think the names nor number of provinces and territories in Canada were important. Hell, I didn't even know there were any territories until Nunavut was added in the 90's(?)

Anyway, this move by Harper (with an assist from the GG) is a delay and not an end of the issue, right? Seems like Harper bought some time to put together a real budget rather then what he first put out (from my read his budget wasn't well received.) So now he has time to get a realistic budget and plan put together.

I may be reading this situation all wrong but his actions remind me of Bush Jr. Seems like he's taken a "my way or the highway, boys" attitude. Bush got away with that crap for years because his party was in control of a two party system. Canada's system doesn't seem very conducive to this type of governing.

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Sticky

He is a my way or the highway type of guy but that is not really what is happening here. You are correct that it is just about buying time. He will now have to come up with a Budget that is acceptable enough to any of the other parties if he wants it to be passed. If not his government will be defeated and the Governor General will either allow for the calling or ask if some other party would like to try and form a government.
I would rather that it goes to an election (my opinion).

CandleInTheDark I feel that there is another side the subsidy where I see a benefit. My ridding always votes Liberal by a huge majority. This subsidy allows me to give something to the party that I want in power even though there is no way that my vote will ever get them into power. It makes me feel like my vote is worth somethin (1.95 to be specific)

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Sticky The Stickman