10-21-2008, 08:28 AM | #1 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Obama and Equal Pay
Again, Obama actions are not consistent with his words. Although he is highly critical of McCain, Republicans and business in general, when he has an opportunity to serve as a role model what do we get? On the issue of equal pay we get Obama paying his female paid staff less than his male staff on average. McCain on average pays his female staff people more than the males. I wonder why we are not concerned with the inconsistencies between Obama's words and his actions?
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Of course we get the footnote about woman not holding the same jobs, I think I have heard that thousands of times before, but when business says it - it is b.s., isn't it?
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10-21-2008, 08:32 AM | #2 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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LOL.......are yoi going to cover every issue across the board with your less than complete (cherrypicked?) critique of Obama?
Hurry ....time is running outl! -----Added 21/10/2008 at 12 : 36 : 19----- I think the voters know pretty well where the candidates stand on issues affecting women....be it equal pay, family/medical leave act, violence against women's act or the most basic, women's choice.....McCain has voted against all of them.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 10-21-2008 at 08:37 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
10-21-2008, 08:38 AM | #3 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Not interested in issues. Rather discuss ACORN some more. I understand.
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10-21-2008, 08:41 AM | #4 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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The issue is that Obama supports equal pay....and McCain voted against it, as well voting against the family/medical leave act, violence against women's act (both were before Obama's time in the Senate) and doesnt have a litmus test for Supreme Court appointments, but wont appoint someone who supports Roe....and now will accept a constitutional amendment to ban abortion, which he previously opposed.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 10-21-2008 at 08:43 AM.. |
10-21-2008, 08:46 AM | #5 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Actions vs. words.
McCain had reasons for his votes. Do those reasons not matter? Do Obama's actions not matter? Obama says running his campaign is an example of his operational experience, I know the above is regarding his Senate staff but why not look at what he has done? Sure you don't want to talk about Ayers or Wright? What about Palin dancing on SNL?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
10-21-2008, 08:49 AM | #6 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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Regarding the Senate, much of pay differentials between the two staffs has to do with seniority as well as averaging the pay of administrative staff (more women than men) into the overall salary average, with McCain's staff being on the Senate payroll for a much longer time.
Its not that hard to understand.
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10-21-2008, 08:52 AM | #7 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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So, why is it so hard for people to understand when Business gives the exact same answer?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
10-21-2008, 08:59 AM | #8 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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ace, comparing the difference between Oabama's and McCain's staff to general practices within a specific business (or office) is apples and oranges.
Equal pay legislation addresses disparities in pay between those with same levels of experience. That is not the case in the differences in pay between Obama's staff and McCain's.
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10-21-2008, 09:05 AM | #10 (permalink) | |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
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Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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I think it's hard to take it seriously when the info is (yet again) cherry picked to try to distort the facts. Here's the whole article-
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10-21-2008, 10:24 AM | #11 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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The same information was included in my post. O.k. - I raise the "white flag", we have no plans of addressing the questions raised.
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10-21-2008, 10:26 AM | #12 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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The record of the candidates on equal pay and other women's issues is clear....what more need be said?
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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10-21-2008, 10:35 AM | #13 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Of course the questions have been addressed and of course I don't accept the manner in which the questions have been addressed. I apologize to all Obama supporters for being dense and having the gall to question Obama.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
10-21-2008, 10:58 AM | #15 (permalink) |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
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Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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I'll admit I didn't see that in your post. But with that information what is your point? Seems like you're trying to compare apples to oranges and then make a complaint regarding the color of the fruit inside.
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10-21-2008, 11:13 AM | #17 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Republican administrations have a track record of inclusion, including the Bush administration being diverse with no regard for sex or race. McCain chooses a female as his running mate and has females in high level staff positions, more so than does Obama. But Democrats want to call Republicans sexists. I don't get it, and I ask you folks some questions. My questions get laughed at. I know...it is always about me and my failings...I get it...no need to repeat it...please...I am whatever you think I am...but my questions are my questions. -----Added 21/10/2008 at 03 : 14 : 20----- And what point would that be?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 10-21-2008 at 11:14 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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10-21-2008, 11:26 AM | #18 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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That the main point of your OP is bunk. One would expect such an astute economic expert as yourself wouldn't be so confused by the fairly straightforward reason that women are on average paid less than men among Obama's campaign staff.
I'm more interested in the disparities between what the different campaigns have paid Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae lobbyists (as in, which campaign has employed them as campaign staff) and how those disparities mesh with each campaigns professed desires about "keeping the special interests out of Washington," but that's just me. By all means, let's talk about distorted interpretations of statistics like they aren't distortions and then act all incredulous when we're ignored. |
10-21-2008, 11:43 AM | #19 (permalink) | ||
Living in a Warmer Insanity
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10-21-2008, 11:47 AM | #20 (permalink) |
Please touch this.
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Location: Manhattan
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ace, can I have your attention for a moment? I have read this thread and am prepared to comment on the issue.
First, your point that Obama's campaign is paying women less than the men on average is nullified by the paragraph that Tully Mars highlighted. The one point that you based this entire thread on was discounted in your own original post. There are simply less women in senior roles for McCain and therefore the math cannot possibly add up for Obama. Second, this point is based off of improperly organized statistics. If we were to compare women of the same role to men of the same role within Obama's campaign, versus the same scope within McCain's campaign, we might have an argument. Instead, these numbers simply reflect the total women in each campaign against the total men in each campaign. This is not good statistical analysis. It is irresponsible news reporting. Now that I have responded to your points directly (instead of working on you personally) are you willing to concede this point or push further?
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10-21-2008, 11:51 AM | #21 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Next level - Obama has made attacks against McCain on the Equal pay issue, you agree there are complexities to the issue - are Obama's attacks against McCain fair? Are Obama's attacks on "business" fair?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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10-21-2008, 11:55 AM | #22 (permalink) |
Please touch this.
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Location: Manhattan
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You'll have to provide me with some source material. The only "attack" on "business" that I've detected from Obama center on big corporations. He seems to favor small businesses with his spoken word. Give me a quote in context and we can evaluate it as a community.
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10-21-2008, 12:55 PM | #23 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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and here is a summary of one of the bills McCain did not support. Quote:
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This bill could bankrupt small businesses. A simple strategy for every woman would be to file a lawsuit after leaving a company and be eligible for not only legitimate damages but 2 years of additional compensation. Why not? the employer (accept for Obama) is going to be presumed guilty based on our histroy. The Ledbetter decision was decided correctly and properly frames potential damages and the time frames for correcting any wrong doing. There are often legitimate reasons for pay discrepancies and legitimate reasons to vote against legislation.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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10-21-2008, 01:15 PM | #24 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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10-21-2008, 01:21 PM | #25 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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The Supreme Court effectively affirmed that a woman couldnt file a pay discrimination lawsuit after six months of the first discriminatory paycheck.
The Fair Pay Restoration Act that McCain opposed (but did not vote) would have expanded the opportunity for women to file a pay discrimination claim. Such clams are very difficult to prove and very time consuming in preparing and are denied more often than not. Six months to file a lawsuit after first discovering possible pay discrimination is not a hell of alot of time. Pay discrimination is not frivolous...its a fact. There is nothing to suggest that it would lead to a "strategy for women to file lawsuits" ...unless they had a legitimate claim And there is even less to suggest that it would bankrupt small businesses. But if thats what McCain believes, thats what he should be judged on. Although I dont quite understand how he can dismiss the issue with a comment like "They (women) need education and training" ...as the solution to pay discrimination. Just as Obama should be judged on his voting record, not some silly notion as the OP's "his actions are not consistent with his word" and a baseless comparison of salaries of his staff vs McCain's staff.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 10-21-2008 at 01:32 PM.. |
10-21-2008, 01:46 PM | #26 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that the Ledbetter decision hinged on good law.
It seems like you've formed your opinion based on secondary and third party sources, rather than primary ones. How could Ledbetter sue for damages any earlier than she knew she had been payed inappropriately? Maybe she wasn't discriminated against, but her suit couldn't even go forward to determine that since the justices focused on the statute of limitations. A number of crimes don't have statute of limitations for good reasons, and there are good reasons for maintaining statutes of limitations in other cases, but I'm not sure how you justify barring people from suing for redress within a reasonable time when they learn a potential harm has been done to them.
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10-22-2008, 04:48 AM | #27 (permalink) | ||
You had me at hello
Location: DC/Coastal VA
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The economy could bankrupt small businesses. The McCain tax cut could destabilize the SBA. A butterfly flapping its wings could cause Pop's Li'l IT Shop to close. If your business isn't good enough to pay women in equal positions equal pay, then why do you exist? I don't want you putting tires on my car.
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10-22-2008, 07:22 AM | #28 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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in 1997 they resolved 1,172 cases (keep in mind that many prefer to file lawsuits rather than have the EEOC resolve their claims) with a average resolution amount of $2,047. In 2007 the EEOC resolved 796 cases with an average resolution amount of $11,683. There are two questions, why did the number of resolved cases go down ( and actually the number of filed cases) and why did the average resolution amount go up, given the lessening disparity in pay? Then the question is what would happen under the proposed legislation? If a case is worthy of punitive damages a person filing a claim has a right to claim punitive damages in a lawsuit. I don't see the necessity to change the existing law. I simply see changes as a new opportunity to file lawsuits and do it after employment ends rather than having issues resolved during employment. I think situations similar to Obama's could easily be the basis for new types of lawsuits under these new laws subjecting small business to additional uncertainty and more lawsuits. I don't think these new laws will promote equal pay, and they will be harmful to small business.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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10-22-2008, 07:45 AM | #29 (permalink) |
Mad Philosopher
Location: Washington, DC
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The problem is that the current statute, as interpreted by SCOTUS, will often bar people from recovery for the sole reason that they didn't discover the pay disparity until the statute of limitations had passed. That would seem to be a problem; if they current law is fair (and it seems to me to largely be unfair to people with claims, not the other way around), then this seems like a reasonable fix.
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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche |
10-22-2008, 07:49 AM | #30 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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10-22-2008, 08:17 AM | #31 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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But if you want play "what if" scenarios, the Supreme Court decision effectively tells employers that if you can "cover up potential pay discrimination for six months, then you are home free and can discriminate openly." (the Court said that workers must uncover and claim pay discrimination within 180 days of the first alleged discrepancy.) BTW, the Fair Pay Restoration Act did not remove the cap on damages....so another argument of yours is invalid. Back to the central issue of the OP, in terms of the issue of equal pay, I suspect most voters will judge Obama and McCain on their voting records and public statements. Obama voted for the Fair Pay Restoration Act and McCain opposed it but did not vote and offered a ludicrous solution to the pay equity issue..."They (women) need education and training..."
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 10-22-2008 at 08:31 AM.. |
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10-22-2008, 08:29 AM | #32 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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What would happen under the proposed legislation? Presumably, a person would be able to receive the money they were due if they could prove in a court of law that they had experienced wage discrimination, but failed to file a claim within the standard statute of limitations. Your position seems to be: I don't want to allow legitimate legal recourse to people who have been subject to wage discrimination because I am afraid that there might be some people who file erroneous claims. Seems like you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Quote:
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10-22-2008, 12:09 PM | #33 (permalink) | ||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I am still baffled by the fact that we can look at national general statistics and conclude there is a problem. From a legal stand point a claimant can make a prima facia case against an employer on general statistics for that employer. But when we look at Obama's statistics, we immediately accept an explanation that normally would carry no weight until the statistics were proven. Given Obama's ad against McCain, I would think it fair to take a deeper look into Obama's employment practices. Quote:
I also think the discrepancies in pay based on race has more to do with education and training than racial discrimination. Do you agree?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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10-22-2008, 12:12 PM | #34 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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why are you talking about punitive damages?
did you mean something else? because punitive damages are not for compensation of the harm done, but rather damages meant to elicit changes in behavior. For example, let's say my cell company regulary jacks people around on their bills. I sue for $300 (the excess charges) in damages and 1 million dollars in punitive damages. The million is simply to make my cell phone company think twice before jacking people's bills anymore, not on the basis of any real damages I've incurred from them.
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
10-22-2008, 12:23 PM | #35 (permalink) |
Mad Philosopher
Location: Washington, DC
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Actually, Ace, the Supreme Court has consistently held, over and over again, that statistics alone cannot prove employment discrimination. (Interesting side note: I met my girlfriend in my Employment Discrimination class. Hi Sweetie!)
And the issue isn't the timeframe for filing suit as such. It's whether or not the time should toll until such a time as the employee knew or should have known about the disparity. That's all.
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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche |
10-22-2008, 12:25 PM | #36 (permalink) | ||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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People currently have legitimate legal recourse. But, my position is that I think people should make attempts to resolve problems while the problems can be resolved. For example if a female is coaching a female college volleyball team and is being paid $30,000, and a male is coaching a male college volleyball team and is being paid $40,000 and the salaries are public. I personally would want the female to make a claim with the administration at a time when the administration can do something, not for example after she retires or gets fired. In some cases the discrepancy can be willful, in other cases the discrepancy might be an oversight. If the discrepancy is willful and the complaint is ignored, I would be the first one to support, nominal compensatory and punitive damages. I think the general trend for legitimate pay discrimination is positive (less of it) and I think with increased awareness of the issue with proactive action the number of formal complaints should be going down. Given what I think, I would not support legislation intended to change those trends when there is no underlying need to. Perhaps, trial attorneys don't agree, and certainly Obama does not agree. -----Added 22/10/2008 at 04 : 27 : 04----- Quote:
-----Added 22/10/2008 at 04 : 36 : 33----- Quote:
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 10-22-2008 at 12:36 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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10-22-2008, 12:47 PM | #37 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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I don't think you get punitive damages easily for salary disputes. I could be wrong, but they aren't generally awarded over contractual disputes and the behaviors has to be malicious and egregious; I also think juries award punitive damages and judges can adjust them. At least, the point is that they aren't generally of the nature of "ask and ye shall receive". There's probably a lot more to it, civil law is a world apart from criminal law, but whatever the type of damages are not what's at issue here so if I were you I'd drop that prong of your argument unless you were absolutely sure it's necessary to argue over the type of damages (as in looked it up yourself and read the relevant cases, not damn I'm never wrong sure) because it's not going to add any weight to your point.
there's obviously an argument to be made for the way things currently are, I'd start by reading the supreme's decision, but it only harms rather than helps one's stance to form spurious arguments. at least, it's already been decided, so read how they arrived at their conclusions and reframe your argument in a stronger fashion rather than piling up other factors and abandoning what the original issue was. it's annoying to meet a moving target.
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman Last edited by smooth; 10-22-2008 at 12:54 PM.. |
10-22-2008, 12:54 PM | #38 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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10-22-2008, 01:21 PM | #39 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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like I said, I wasn't sure.
but also like I said, it's not the point. you said that you didn't have a problem with punitive damages, and didn't see why the current law should be changed. that's a non-sequitur the way you posted it, so I asked why you were brining it into the discussion. the current law doesn't need to be changed with regard to punitive damages, it needs to be changed because you can't sue someone six months after the first discriminatory paycheck. so go back to your argument, and reframe it without the logical fallacy.
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
10-22-2008, 01:27 PM | #40 (permalink) | ||||
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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If you don't work for someone, then they can't discriminate against you via pay. How could someone quit their job, wait a while, and then sue their former employer for back pay? Quote:
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