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Old 02-01-2008, 10:46 AM   #41 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
Since two out of three Americans oppose the war and occupation without end in Iraq (and presumably dont want their kids to be recruited to support it), the obvious outcome in November will be a larger Democratic majority in both houses of Congress and a better than even chance of a Democratic president.
Quote:
But an immediate pull-out was much less popular in Australia (22%), the US (24%) and UK (27%) - the countries with most troops deployed in Iraq.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6981553.stm

Your phrasing was biased, obviously occupation without end is not desirable, and it should be telling to you that 1/3rd don't seem to mind that.

But if you really believe it, keep the moonbats loud and in front, I want every one of those types to be marching, protesting, waving signs, and making speeches.

People are voting against republicans, not FOR democrats, and the more the democrats remind people who they really are the better for the republicans
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Old 02-01-2008, 11:04 AM   #42 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
People are voting against republicans, not FOR democrats, and the more the democrats remind people who they really are the better for the republicans
Nice spin...but unsupportable.

Every poll, on nearly every issue (including Iraq war, but perhaps not national security), the people prefer Democrats over Republicans.

Ah...but you, like the Bush mouthpieces in the WH press office and the right wing talking heads, dont care about polls....unless they support your position.
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Old 02-01-2008, 11:19 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Reading the original stories <h3>I have to say that I love Berkeley.

Its like every moonbat stereotype come to life for me to mock.
</h3>
I can only hope these types get louder and louder come next November, for what should be obvious reasons.
From my new "Historical REAL ENEMIES" thread; funny you should mention "moonbats", because for me, nothing in that category can beat the rich ole corporatist, war mongering, nuclear football totin' MF's who Smedley Butler spoke about in his "War is a Racket" speech. You know the ones I'm talking about, they never tire of alerting us that they are "under attack", when they control almost all of the money, political power, and the key, the war apparatus that was supposed to defend us, not make them rich off the supreme sacrifices of our manipulated 19 year olds:
Quote:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...ght/index.html
Glenn Greenwald
Thursday January 31, 2008 07:33 EST
Enemies everywhere

Writing about last night's GOP debate, John Hinderaker of Powerline, Time's 2004 Blog of the Year, <a href="http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/01/019682.php">shared this observation</a>:

<i>Businessmen, in my experience, are generally more idealistic than politicians. Businessmen really do make deals with a

handshake. No one would dream of doing that with Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi or the Clintons. . . .

I don't view this as an argument in Romney's favor. <h3>As President, he wouldn't be dealing with honorable, law-abiding

businesspeople. He would be going up against the Vladimir Putins, Osama bin Ladens and Harry Reids</h3> of the world."</i>

That passage was then <a href="http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MDEzYzkxNDMzMWNlOTBiYWZhY2FiZjUzOWYyMjdlNGU=">promptly

quoted</a> by National Review's Mark Steyn, who said that Hinderaker "might be on to something."...

.....Why don't Democrats become more bipartisan? Why are liberal bloggers and The Angry Left so hateful? Why does Bush Derangement

Syndrome cause people to say such mean things, make such extreme accusations, about the Commander-in-Chief? After all, the right-

wing of the Republican Party is so reasonable and sober and so eager to work cooperatively with Democrats for what's best for the

country that it's just inexcusable for liberals to view politics as warfare and refuse to shed their hostility in order to get

things done.

And besides, the nation's poor War Cheerleaders of the Right are always so besieged by vicious Enemies lurking on every corner --

people who are ruthless, without scruples, and who are even willing to break the law. Like Vladimir Putin, Osama bin Laden, and

Harry Reid.

They're treated very unfairly everywhere -- by the press, by colleges, by political elites, by other countries, by the U.N., by

minorities. <h3>There is no more besieged and victimized group anywhere on the planet than white, Christian, American conservative

males (except, perhaps, right-wing Jews, the only worthy competitor for the glorious mantle of Most Persecuted).</h3> Among other

things, <a href="http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={0D04F5F9-E7DC-4D8E-A7D8-209D50FF9BCD}">they must battle</a.

"the unholy alliance of leftists, Islamists and multiculturalist racial pressure groups."

Every institution treats them unfairly; every sector poses a threat to their Goodness; they are surrounded by soul-less Enemies

who wish to do them harm. <a href="http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/8627.html">Nobody</a> deserves the slightest sympathy -- <a href="http://instapundit.com/archives2/014735.php">nobody's plight merits the slightest concern</a> -- except for theirs. They are

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/opinion/31Cohen.html?hp">the best people on Earth -- actually, the best people ever in
all of human history. And everyone is against them.</a> Everyone is waging war on them. Enemies everywhere work together to

threaten and harm them. It's all deeply unfair. And they must wage vicious war -- against all the Enemies, Everywhere -- if they

have any hope of being protected.
,,,go over there, and read on....there was no Mafia remaining, to speak of, until the Navy OSI and the US Army revitalized it in New York and in Sicily in 1943, and that begat the heroin epidemic and hastened the fall of Cuba, and there was no opium poppy growing industry remaining in Afghanistan, after the Taleban fell in late 2001.....back when the US national debt was $3.2 trillion less, and the ole whitemen in the US, who control almost everything we're rallying the young around the flag, yet one mo' effing time.....

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Old 02-01-2008, 12:08 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
And you would be......?
A community member and concerned citizen who is liberal and has too much time on his hands.
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Old 02-01-2008, 12:12 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
Based upon your years of experience as an active member of the United States Armed Forces?
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Old 02-01-2008, 12:25 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
Based upon your years of experience as an active member of the United States Armed Forces?
Jesus, how did I miss this? No, not based on my experience. I would have been the 5th generation Army had it not been for my heart condition and political views, but that's not relevant anyway. All I need are facts. I present my verifiable facts to people and allow them the opportunity to make an informed decision. My military experience or lack thereof have nothing to do with my facts, as one can have facts about the military and not be in the military.
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Old 02-01-2008, 01:08 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
We provide accurate information about what actually happens when one joins the military
Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
No, not based on my experience....that's not relevant anyway. All I need are facts.
Facts. Facts based on...what, exactly? Google? Puhleeze. Stories relayed to you by non-hackers who didn't last through boot camp, 'cause it wasn't the wine and cheese party they thought it'd be? For me...personal experience is everything.

Look, Will...take a survey of the veterans just on this board. There are many of us. Ask us how many were blatantly lied to. I'm not talking about just having details glossed over. I mean actually out and out lied to.

I'll start you off. I was not lied to by my recruiter. I knew exactly what I was getting into. And I'll bet so did the majority of the rest of ex-service members here.
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Old 02-01-2008, 01:18 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
Facts. Facts based on...what, exactly? Google? Puhleeze. Stories relayed to you by non-hackers who didn't last through boot camp, 'cause it wasn't the wine and cheese party they thought it'd be? For me...personal experience is everything.

Look, Will...take a survey of the veterans just on this board. There are many of us. Ask us how many were blatantly lied to. I'm not talking about just having details glossed over. I mean actually out and out lied to.
Damn straight. All these cute Google links and "I-went-to-college!" opinions are garbage unless you've actually gone through the process yourself. Hill of beans, I say!

I knew perfectly well what I was getting into when I signed up. It was part of being an educated adult who couldn't afford college and wanted to embark on a life-changing adventure to gain skills and experiences that the civvie system will never be able to provide. It was part of joining the military after 9/11 and dealing with Bush's trigger-happy get-them-evil-doers policies. My recruiter told me I could either be a paratrooper or get a huge cash bonus. I still took the wings. My recruiter told me I would be deployed after basic. I knew damn well that meant a year in sunny downtown (city), Iraq. I knew it meant stepping into an atom smasher and coming out a different man.

I was never lied to once during the entire US Army recruiting process.

I get the feeling they don't have to lie much. The job really sells itself.

The military was the easiest (or dumbest?) job I ever had.
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Old 02-01-2008, 01:27 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Location: In the dust of the archives
So...

100% of the military veterans surveyed, were not lied to.

Granted...it's only two of us, so far, but that's still 100%. Statistics don't lie. They are...say it with me...facts.
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Old 02-01-2008, 01:38 PM   #50 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
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I was approached by a recruiter while in ortho school.

I don't think he was lying when he told me, "well you won't get paid much but you won't have to do a lot of work either".

I don't think they wanted me for my marksmanship though
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:06 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
Facts. Facts based on...what, exactly? Google? Puhleeze. Stories relayed to you by non-hackers who didn't last through boot camp, 'cause it wasn't the wine and cheese party they thought it'd be? For me...personal experience is everything.
That's right, because Google can only lead you to the blogs of 15 year olds or people have no no experience in the real world. Puhleeze.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
Look, Will...take a survey of the veterans just on this board. There are many of us. Ask us how many were blatantly lied to. I'm not talking about just having details glossed over. I mean actually out and out lied to.
Or how about this: In the mall about 4 months ago I came across a conversation between one my my little brother's friends and an Army recruitment officer. I stopped and listened. He lied. I've come to find out that CURRENT MILITARY OFFICERS are coming forward to confirm that what I saw is not an isolated incident. My best friend was lied to by his Navy recruiter. He had to get correct information from me, someone who's never been in the Navy.

Go figure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
I'll start you off. I was not lied to by my recruiter. I knew exactly what I was getting into. And I'll bet so did the majority of the rest of ex-service members here.
The "it didn't happen to me thus it didn't happen" argument is the worst kind of fallacy. Maybe you can call up your recruiter buddies and ask them how many explain the stop-loss program to their recruits.
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:11 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Maybe you can call up your recruiter buddies and ask them how many explain the stop-loss program to their recruits.
Haha, SLSM is so popular that they're currently making a "reality" film about it.

Story of my life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
The "it didn't happen to me thus it didn't happen" argument is the worst kind of fallacy.
We had a LOT of time to sit on our dickbeaters in the US Army. Especially in basic training. You don't think we didn't spend endless hours talking about how we ended up in the meat grinder? Our lives before and how we got there? In a company of 300+ guys... I didn't hear a single story about a recruiter being deceitful.

Fallacy? Sure, I'm one man... but I was immersed in the system for four long years. You witness a lot of things. Recruitments. Reenlistment. All sorts of magic.

Are there statistics that quantify the bullshit present in the recruitment process? Maybe. Are they scientific enough to be any kind of proof? Definitely not.

...

We did have some guy try to kill himself with his bootlaces. His gripe? His recruiter gave him exactly what he said he'd get and the guy couldn't handle it.
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:23 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Location: Fort Worth, TX
Quote:
The actions of Berkeley residents are proportional. The military recruiters there have been warned before by many people (including me) that deceiving people won't be tolerated. They decided to ignore us. These are the consequences.

It's clear that the military recruiters can't be bothered to act responsibly or honorably. The military won't hold them responsible. As such, it's up to the community to hold them responsible.

So maybe change the word in your post from "reprehensible" to "responsible".
Show me one person who signed a contract which upheld things other than what happened. You won't find one, otherwise you're basing your opinion off of hearsay which is not valid in any court.

Quote:
So...

100% of the military veterans surveyed, were not lied to.

Granted...it's only two of us, so far, but that's still 100%. Statistics don't lie. They are...say it with me...facts.
Make that three.

Quote:
He lied.
What did he say?
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:29 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basic Training Cadence, Week One
Sitting at home, wastin' my youth,
Nowhere to go, nothin' to do.
My recruiter said to me,
Come join the Army!

I used to drive a Cadillac,
with all my homies in the back!
My recruiter lied to me,
Be what you wanna be!

I used to wear my baggy Jeans,
now I'm wearing army greens.
My recruiter lied to me,
Be what you wanna be!

I used to eat at Micky D's,
Now I'm eating these MREs,
My recruiter lied to me,
Be what you wanna be!

I used to fuck the prom queen,
but now I rod this M-16.
My recruiter lied to me,
Be what you wanna be!

I used to drive a Coup De Ville,
with the leather-wrap steering wheel.
My recruiter lied to me,
I shouldn't have joined the Army!
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:32 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
Show me one person who signed a contract which upheld things other than what happened. You won't find one, otherwise you're basing your opinion off of hearsay which is not valid in any court.
No one said anything about the papers. The papers are perfectly clear. The words coming out of the recruiters mouth's are what's in question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
What did he say?
In answering a question by my little bro's friend, "You won't go to Iraq."

BTW, Cromp, you joined up between 9/11 and the invasion, when recruitment was soaring. I don't think they needed to lie. Now? Most of the country wants out of the war, bodies are piling up; I would imagine recruiting may have changed between 2002 and now.
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:35 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Fun, fun.
Lies Some Recruiters Tell

Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
In answering a question by my little bro's friend, "You won't go to Iraq."
Doesn't mean he is going, though. The army has quite a few posts that are non-deployable (training or logistics or necessary specialties that need to stay CONUS). Many of my friends are in them right now to avoid getting deployed for a third time. Would you like email addresses? They have signed contracts that say "non-deployable."
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:38 PM   #57 (permalink)
Living in a Warmer Insanity
 
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Location: Yucatan, Mexico
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
So...

100% of the military veterans surveyed, were not lied to.

Granted...it's only two of us, so far, but that's still 100%. Statistics don't lie. They are...say it with me...facts.
I'm a Veteran, fours years Navy. I served starting 1983 and got my DD-214 in 1987. I was lied to back then regarding the ability of the Navy to retain me past the 4 yrs I agreed to serve. Granted they didn't keep me longer. But they lied none the less.

That was then, this is now. Now there's a war going on and they're having trouble finding people to fill quotas. They upped the age limit. They've lowered the minimum educational requirements. They're taking people with criminal histories they would have shown the door to in years past.

My daughter is currently in the Coast Guard. She finished Cape May this past summer and is stationed in Florida. She considered several other services prior to joining the CG. I sat down with her and the recruiters from the Navy and the Air Force. They both lied on several issues. The Navy guy couldn't even keep his lies straight. Don't think he was used to dealing with people who do their homework.

So that's the end of the 100% of that survey and that too is..say it with me... "fact."
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:40 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tully Mars
So that's the end of the 100% of that survey and that too is..say it with me... "fact."
2 out of 3 ain't bad.

...

What were the lies about, anyway? Pay? Stations? Occupational specialty?
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:56 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin
Doesn't mean he is going, though. The army has quite a few posts that are non-deployable (training or logistics or necessary specialties that need to stay CONUS). Many of my friends are in them right now to avoid getting deployed for a third time. Would you like email addresses? They have signed contracts that say "non-deployable."
Looking at the situation, there is simply no way for the recruiter to know that the kid won't go to Iraq. Considering what I've seen happen to my high school buddies, it's very likely that the young man would have been in Iraq had he signed up. Fortunately, I was there and gave him more complete answers including, "It's entirely possible that if you were to sign up you'd be stationed somewhere in Iraq."

Tully, thanks for coming forward. I hope your daughter is safe in her service.
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:58 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Location: Fort Worth, TX
Quote:
2 out of 3 ain't bad.
3 out of 4. Why do you keep ignoring me?

Quote:
In answering a question by my little bro's friend, "You won't go to Iraq."
I have 3 friends in the Military who will never go to Iraq. 2 are Logistics and 1 is trainer. So not a lie.

No one person signed a contract which resulted in different outcomes. That is the key, they are specifically TOLD TO READ THE ENTIRE CONTRACT. I went through recruitment twice, both times this was carried out. For those who don't read the contract I have as much sympathy as a person who pays 20% interest on their mortgage, it's their own fault.

Quote:
Fortunately, I was there and gave him more complete answers including, "It's entirely possible that if you were to sign up you'd be stationed somewhere in Iraq."
Sorry, but you have a stupid friend if he thinks he signs up in a time of not one but two wars and won't fight. While possible, he should realize the reality.
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:59 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
3 out of 4. Why do you keep ignoring me?
Meatloaf song, dude. C'mon. I know some of you turds are older than me!
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:04 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin
2 out of 3 ain't bad.

...

What were the lies about, anyway? Pay? Stations? Occupational specialty?
I'll assume you mean lies directed at my daughter recently?


"You're female so it not even legal for us to send you to Iraq"

"Look, you join, you get to boot camp and you find it's not for you all you have to do is ring a bell outside the dorm and you're on the next flight home. No questioned asked, we don't want you if you don't want to be there."

"You're female, we need females. The day you complete Basic you'll make E-4. E-4 will get you guarantied off base housing even being single. That alone can nearly double your pay."


I was lied to, my daughter was lied to. That's 50%... not 2 out of 3.
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:07 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
Sorry, but you have a stupid friend if he thinks he signs up in a time of not one but two wars and won't fight. While possible, he should realize the reality.
Your admission that my friend is stupid means that you understand that the recruiter misinterpreted the truth. Thank you for that, whether it was intentional or not.
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:07 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tully Mars
"You're female so it not even legal for us to send you to Iraq"

"Look, you join, you get to boot camp and you find it's not for you all you have to do is ring a bell outside the dorm and you're on the next flight home. No questioned asked, we don't want you if you don't want to be there."

"You're female, we need females. The day you complete Basic you'll make E-4. E-4 will get you guarantied off base housing even being single. That alone can nearly double your pay."
1. Hah. Which is why so many of my guys got laid by sweaty women wearing uniforms.

2. Boot camp does not equal USN BUDS training.

3. *snort-cackle-snort-turns-blue*

Yeah, those would all be lies. Hopefully everybody could smell the bullshit.

...

And I'm sorry, but the "we need females" line made me cackle.
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:10 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
3 out of 4. Why do you keep ignoring me?



I have 3 friends in the Military who will never go to Iraq. 2 are Logistics and 1 is trainer. So not a lie.

No one person signed a contract which resulted in different outcomes. That is the key, they are specifically TOLD TO READ THE ENTIRE CONTRACT. I went through recruitment twice, both times this was carried out. For those who don't read the contract I have as much sympathy as a person who pays 20% interest on their mortgage, it's their own fault.



Sorry, but you have a stupid friend if he thinks he signs up in a time of not one but two wars and won't fight. While possible, he should realize the reality.
So you say you have three friends who will never go to Iraq, so it's not a lie...

and...

you're saying someone else is stupid if they believe that if they join during two wars they won't go to war.

That logic seems to contradict itself.
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:14 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tully Mars
That logic seems to contradict itself.
Enlisted members who have jobs that don't deploy + possibility of joining and not getting a job that is non-deployable = logic to me.
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:18 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin
1. Hah. Which is why so many of my guys got laid by sweaty women wearing uniforms.

2. Boot camp does not equal USN BUDS training.

3. *snort-cackle-snort-turns-blue*

Yeah, those would all be lies. Hopefully everybody could smell the bullshit.

...

And I'm sorry, but the "we need females" line made me cackle.
Coast Guard guy told her the same thing. She and a male friend signed and swore in on the same day. Her signing bonus was double his, 12k. I don't know the real story because she had nearly completed her B.S. degree. Don't know where he was in school.


I think the bottom line is more and more pressure is being put on recruiters to deliver. The result of that is more and more often the recruiters are cutting corners to get slots filled.

I know I read an article sometime back where at least one recruiter was using his own urine to get clean UA's on would be recruits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin
Enlisted members who have jobs that don't deploy + possibility of joining and not getting a job that is non-deployable = logic to me.
Went back and read it again= still bad logic to me.


I don't see where you can respond to a statement that a person was lied to when told "you won't go to Iraq" with:

I have 3 friends in the Military who will never go to Iraq. 2 are Logistics and 1 is trainer. So not a lie.

And state:

Sorry, but you have a stupid friend if he thinks he signs up in a time of not one but two wars and won't fight. While possible, he should realize the reality.

But it does sound like you agree the guy's being lied to, just that he's stupid for believing it.
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:45 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Quote:
I don't know the real story because she had nearly completed her B.S. degree. Don't know where he was in school.
If you have half a BS, you are considered to have an Associates Degree. You get a bigger bonus plus generally rank of E2 upon leaving Boot Camp.

Quote:
But it does sound like you agree the guy's being lied to, just that he's stupid for believing it.
It does happen, the likelihood is small though. That's like saying if we knew someone won the lottery, someone spending money on it is a smart investment.

Besides, my friends were in the military prior to 9/11. Those non-deployable positions are few and far between, getting into one in a time of war is difficult to say the least (though still possible).

So you and your daughter were lied to, that is unfortunate. My question remains, did anyone present a contract which contradicted what would actually occur?
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:52 PM   #69 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
Facts. Facts based on...what, exactly? Google?
From the GAO report on Military Recruiting Irregularities in 2005, based on reporting by the DoD:
38 cases of coercion
74 cases of fall promises
38 cases of misconduct

also:
420 cases of recruiter concealing medical/criminal record of potential recruits
110 cases of recruiter falsifying documents
47 cases of illegal testing
61 cases of "other" irregularities

Not included: the more than 6,000 "unsubstantiated cases" of recruiting irregularities when it was recruiters word against the recruits.
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:53 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
It does happen, the likelihood is small though. That's like saying if we knew someone won the lottery, someone spending money on it is a smart investment.
HA! So we've gone from it doesn't happen to it does, but it's rare. Are we really going to have to dance until you finally, and begrudgingly accept this is common practice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
So you and your daughter were lied to, that is unfortunate. My question remains, did anyone present a contract which contradicted what would actually occur?
I already answered this strawman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel, in response to one of your posts
No one said anything about the papers. The papers are perfectly clear. The words coming out of the recruiters mouth's are what's in question.
Clear enough? This is about the words coming out of mouths, not pages and pages of paper.
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:56 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
....waiting for the Ron Paul commercial.
Nah, I'm much less enthusiastic about RP these days. I even toyed with voting for Fred Thompson for a while, even though I think his foreign policy was wrong. But I can still be a libertarian conservative, and think RP would make a bad president
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:56 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Logic! Whee!

Logically,

"I have three friends in the military who will never deploy,"

and

"new recruits are likely to be deployed,"

are not contradictory statements. Even if we take the second statement as a certainty (ie, "new recruits will always be deployed,") there's still no contradiction inherent unless the three friends are new recruits. If we apply these two statements analytically to the recruiter's statement "you will not deploy," we still can't draw any firm conclusions although it does point to the probability that the recruiter was at the least stretching the truth a bit. Without knowing the context in which the recruiter made that statement, it's difficult or impossible to say with any certainty that he was lying. If, for example, the prospective recruit had asked "what if I get assigned to job X?" with job X being his job of choice and also being one of the jobs that is non-deployable, the recruiter could have made his statement without contradicting either of the two above.

Also, oversimplifying leads to heated arguments over nothing. 'Some recruiters lie some of the time' != 'all recruiters lie all the time.' Inversely, 'some recruiters are honest with all new recruits' != 'all recruiters are honest with all recruits.'

I am not American and I have a permanent disability that disqualifies me from service, so the larger debate really has no bearing on me whatsoever. If anyone wants to accuse me of bias, however, I will be glad to facilitate it by pointing out that if I didn't have a permanent disability I'd probably be in the forces today.

EDIT -

Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
From the GAO report on Military Recruiting Irregularities in 2005, based on reporting by the DoD:
38 cases of coercion
74 cases of fall promises
38 cases of misconduct

also:
420 cases of recruiter concealing medical/criminal record of potential recruitee
110 cases of recruiter falsifying documents
47 cases of illegal testing
61 cases of "other" irregularities

Not included: the more than 6,000 "unsubstantiated cases" of recruiting irregularities when it was recruiters word against the recruitee.
Out of curiosity, do you know what the overall recruitment figures for 2005 were? It'd be interesting to see what those figures amount to in the context of total recruits.
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:57 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
If you have half a BS, you are considered to have an Associates Degree. You get a bigger bonus plus generally rank of E2 upon leaving Boot Camp.



It does happen, the likelihood is small though. That's like saying if we knew someone won the lottery, someone spending money on it is a smart investment.

Besides, my friends were in the military prior to 9/11. Those non-deployable positions are few and far between, getting into one in a time of war is difficult to say the least (though still possible).

So you and your daughter were lied to, that is unfortunate. My question remains, did anyone present a contract which contradicted what would actually occur?
I'm a little lost on your Lotto analogy, but not sure it matters.

She walked out of basic an E-3.

In regards to contradictions by contracts. In my case yes, but the contract where basically shoved in your face and you signed then back then. Everyone I talked to in basic said nearly the same thing.

In regards to my daughter the Navy and Air Force were never pursued to the point of any contracts being viewed.

When she signed with the Guard they went through everything line by line. Even had a DVD they showed us. Everything was covered honestly, as far as I know.
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Old 02-01-2008, 04:07 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Hilarious:

http://www.foxnews.com/printer_frien...327466,00.html

Quote:
U.S. Senator Wants to Revoke Funding From City of Berkeley, Calif., for Vote to Boot Marines

Friday , February 01, 2008



ADVERTISEMENT

WASHINGTON —

U.S. Sen. Jim DeMint, R-S.C., says the City of Berkeley, Calif., no longer deserves federal money.
DeMint was angered after learning that the Berkeley City Council voted this week to tell the U.S. Marine Corps to remove its recruiting station from the city's downtown.

"This is a slap in the face to all brave service men and women and their families," DeMint said in a prepared statement. "The First Amendment gives the City of Berkeley the right to be idiotic, but from now on they should do it with their own money."

"If the city can’t show respect for the Marines that have fought, bled and died for their freedom, Berkeley should not be receiving special taxpayer-funded handouts," he added.

Sen. DeMint will appear Saturday on FOX News Channel — on FOX Online With Jamie Colby — between noon and 2 p.m. ET.

Click here to read Jamie Colby's blog, The Colby Files, and for more information about the show.

In the meantime, a senior Marine official tells FOX News that the Marine office in Berkeley isn't going anywhere.

"We understand things are different there, but some people just don't get it. This is a part of the military machine that gives them the right to do what they do, but what they are doing is extreme," the official said.

DeMint said he will draft legislation to rescind any earmarks dedicated for the City of Berkeley in the recently passed appropriations bill — which his office tallied to value about $2.1 million. He said that any money taken back would be transferred to the Marines.

DeMint's office provided a preliminary list of items that would be subject to his proposal:

— $975,000 for the University of California at Berkeley, for the Matsui Center for Politics and Public Service, which may include establishing an endowment, and for cataloguing the papers of Congressman Robert Matsui.

— $750,000 for the Berkeley/Albana ferry service.

— $243,000 for the Chez Panisse Foundation, for a school lunch initiative to integrate lessons about wellness, sustainability and nutrition into the academic curriculum.

— $94,000 for a Berkeley public safety interoperability program.

— $87,000 for the Berkeley Unified School District, nutrition education program.

The Marine official, speaking with FOX News on Friday, said Marine Commandant Gen. James Conway scoffed at the news, but there are no plans for to protest the City Council's decisions. There are definitely no plans to move the recruiting station either.

"To actually put something into law that encourages the disruption of a federal office is ridiculous. They are not going to kick a federal office out of its rightful place there, and this is not going to discourage those young patriots who want to be Marines," the official said.

The Berkeley City Council this week voted to tell the Marines their downtown recruiting station is not welcome and "if recruiters choose to stay, they do so as uninvited and unwelcome guests," according to The Associated Press.

The council also voted to explore whether a city anti-discrimination law applies to the Marines, with a focus on the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy that prevents open homosexuality in the military.

The council also voted to give the antiwar group Code Pink a parking space in front of the recruiting office once a week for six months, as well as a protest permit.

The Marine recruiting office in Berkeley has been open for about one year, but has been the subject of recent protests by Code Pink members.

FOX News' Justin Fishel and Trish Turner contributed to this report.
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Old 02-01-2008, 04:07 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian
Out of curiosity, do you know what the overall recruitment figures for 2005 were? It'd be interesting to see what those figures amount to in the context of total recruits.
It should also be stated that it's VERY likely that most of this is not reported. Just looking at this thread, in which only a few military people have posted, we've already found glaring examples of dishonesty in recruitment. Either we hit the lotto, or Occam's razor tells us that this is quite common.
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Old 02-01-2008, 04:16 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Quote:
Hilarious:
Federal Funding Law:

There, fixed it for ya.

Quote:
I already answered this strawman.
Sorry, this is not a strawman. The best example of lying recruiters in recent history was proven to contradict your statement.

Quote:
When she signed with the Guard they went through everything line by line. Even had a DVD they showed us. Everything was covered honestly, as far as I know.
I had the exact same experience both times, minus the DVD.

Quote:
Logic! Whee!
Thank you.
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Old 02-01-2008, 04:18 PM   #77 (permalink)
 
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Location: Washington DC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian
Out of curiosity, do you know what the overall recruitment figures for 2005 were? It'd be interesting to see what those figures amount to in the context of total recruits.
I think a better measure is the number of recruiters, not the number of recruits.

There were 13,000+ recruiters, with an "irregular" practice rate of 4.7%. That roughly translates into 1 out of 20 to 25 recruiters doing something irregular, unethical or illegal, depending on multiple infractions by recruiters.

And again, these are only the "substantiated" irregularities.

An acceptable rate of unethical/criminal behavior? I wouldnt want my child to be dealing with that "one".
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Old 02-01-2008, 04:20 PM   #78 (permalink)
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I've just written Jimmy DeMint. I hope he reads my message carefully:
Quote:
Senator DeMint, maybe you should concentrate on fixing the massive problems that South Carolina, your constituents and the people you are responsible to serve, face. I know that health care is a big problem in SC, considering how common cancer is (the second leading cause of death). I'm also aware that you had problems with voting machines in Horry County just this last week that probably deserve your attention. Meddling in the affairs of a community on the other side of the country that has nothing to do with you or other South Carolinians is shameful politicking. If you wanted to make policies about California, you're welcome to run for Senate here.

How would you like it if Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feinstein, two very well known Senators who have done a great deal for their state, were to suddenly threaten to draft legislation about something dealing with South Carolina? I'm sure you'd be more than a little perturbed.

As you are a Southern conservative who supports the military, it's likely you're Christian, so I'll end with a Bible verse that illustrates my point: "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Matthew 7:3. I sincerely hope that you can serve your constituents well and work to improve your own state.

Thanks.
Edit: the verification code to this page is broken. I'll be calling it in tomorrow or Monday.

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Old 02-01-2008, 04:20 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
It should also be stated that it's VERY likely that most of this is not reported. Just looking at this thread, in which only a few military people have posted, we've already found glaring examples of dishonesty in recruitment. Either we hit the lotto, or Occam's razor tells us that this is quite common.
A sample size of six isn't really enough to draw any conclusions, and Occam's razor is not applicable to this discussion in any way, shape or form.
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Old 02-01-2008, 04:26 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian
A sample size of six isn't really enough to draw any conclusions
What are the odds of getting a 1/6 poll from a statistic like 6,000/every recruit in the past year? Not good, which leads us to...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian
and Occam's razor is not applicable to this discussion in any way, shape or form.
What is more reasonable, we got a lotto winner or it's more common? The most likely answer is that it's more common, thus Occam's Razor is applicable.
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