Ustwo

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6981553.stm

Your phrasing was biased, obviously occupation without end is not desirable, and it should be telling to you that 1/3rd don't seem to mind that.

But if you really believe it, keep the moonbats loud and in front, I want every one of those types to be marching, protesting, waving signs, and making speeches.

People are voting against republicans, not FOR democrats, and the more the democrats remind people who they really are the better for the republicans

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dc_dux

Nice spin...but unsupportable.

Every poll, on nearly every issue (including Iraq war, but perhaps not national security), the people prefer Democrats over Republicans.

Ah...but you, like the Bush mouthpieces in the WH press office and the right wing talking heads, dont care about polls....unless they support your position.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

host

From my new "Historical REAL ENEMIES" thread; funny you should mention "moonbats", because for me, nothing in that category can beat the rich ole corporatist, war mongering, nuclear football totin' MF's who Smedley Butler spoke about in his "War is a Racket" speech. You know the ones I'm talking about, they never tire of alerting us that they are "under attack", when they control almost all of the money, political power, and the key, the war apparatus that was supposed to defend us, not make them rich off the supreme sacrifices of our manipulated 19 year olds:
,,,go over there, and read on....there was no Mafia remaining, to speak of, until the Navy OSI and the US Army revitalized it in New York and in Sicily in 1943, and that begat the heroin epidemic and hastened the fall of Cuba, and there was no opium poppy growing industry remaining in Afghanistan, after the Taleban fell in late 2001.....back when the US national debt was $3.2 trillion less, and the ole whitemen in the US, who control almost everything we're rallying the young around the flag, yet one mo' effing time.....

Willravel

A community member and concerned citizen who is liberal and has too much time on his hands.

Plan9

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

Jesus, how did I miss this? No, not based on my experience. I would have been the 5th generation Army had it not been for my heart condition and political views, but that's not relevant anyway. All I need are facts. I present my verifiable facts to people and allow them the opportunity to make an informed decision. My military experience or lack thereof have nothing to do with my facts, as one can have facts about the military and not be in the military.

Bill O'Rights

Facts. Facts based on...what, exactly? Google? Puhleeze. Stories relayed to you by non-hackers who didn't last through boot camp, 'cause it wasn't the wine and cheese party they thought it'd be? For me...personal experience is everything.

Look, Will...take a survey of the veterans just on this board. There are many of us. Ask us how many were blatantly lied to. I'm not talking about just having details glossed over. I mean actually out and out lied to.

I'll start you off. I was not lied to by my recruiter. I knew exactly what I was getting into. And I'll bet so did the majority of the rest of ex-service members here.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Plan9

Damn straight. All these cute Google links and "I-went-to-college!" opinions are garbage unless you've actually gone through the process yourself. Hill of beans, I say!

I knew perfectly well what I was getting into when I signed up. It was part of being an educated adult who couldn't afford college and wanted to embark on a life-changing adventure to gain skills and experiences that the civvie system will never be able to provide. It was part of joining the military after 9/11 and dealing with Bush's trigger-happy get-them-evil-doers policies. My recruiter told me I could either be a paratrooper or get a huge cash bonus. I still took the wings. My recruiter told me I would be deployed after basic. I knew damn well that meant a year in sunny downtown (city), Iraq. I knew it meant stepping into an atom smasher and coming out a different man.

I was never lied to once during the entire US Army recruiting process.

I get the feeling they don't have to lie much. The job really sells itself.

The military was the easiest (or dumbest?) job I ever had.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Bill O'Rights

So...

100% of the military veterans surveyed, were not lied to.

Granted...it's only two of us, so far, but that's still 100%. Statistics don't lie. They are...say it with me...facts.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Ustwo

I was approached by a recruiter while in ortho school.

I don't think he was lying when he told me, "well you won't get paid much but you won't have to do a lot of work either".

I don't think they wanted me for my marksmanship though

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

That's right, because Google can only lead you to the blogs of 15 year olds or people have no no experience in the real world. Puhleeze.
Or how about this: In the mall about 4 months ago I came across a conversation between one my my little brother's friends and an Army recruitment officer. I stopped and listened. He lied. I've come to find out that CURRENT MILITARY OFFICERS are coming forward to confirm that what I saw is not an isolated incident. My best friend was lied to by his Navy recruiter. He had to get correct information from me, someone who's never been in the Navy.

Go figure.
The "it didn't happen to me thus it didn't happen" argument is the worst kind of fallacy. Maybe you can call up your recruiter buddies and ask them how many explain the stop-loss program to their recruits.

Plan9

Haha, SLSM is so popular that they're currently making a "reality" film about it.

Story of my life.

We had a LOT of time to sit on our dickbeaters in the US Army. Especially in basic training. You don't think we didn't spend endless hours talking about how we ended up in the meat grinder? Our lives before and how we got there? In a company of 300+ guys... I didn't hear a single story about a recruiter being deceitful.

Fallacy? Sure, I'm one man... but I was immersed in the system for four long years. You witness a lot of things. Recruitments. Reenlistment. All sorts of magic.

Are there statistics that quantify the bullshit present in the recruitment process? Maybe. Are they scientific enough to be any kind of proof? Definitely not.

...

We did have some guy try to kill himself with his bootlaces. His gripe? His recruiter gave him exactly what he said he'd get and the guy couldn't handle it.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Seaver

Show me one person who signed a contract which upheld things other than what happened. You won't find one, otherwise you're basing your opinion off of hearsay which is not valid in any court.

Make that three.

What did he say?

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Plan9

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

No one said anything about the papers. The papers are perfectly clear. The words coming out of the recruiters mouth's are what's in question.
In answering a question by my little bro's friend, "You won't go to Iraq."

BTW, Cromp, you joined up between 9/11 and the invasion, when recruitment was soaring. I don't think they needed to lie. Now? Most of the country wants out of the war, bodies are piling up; I would imagine recruiting may have changed between 2002 and now.

Plan9

Fun, fun.
Lies Some Recruiters Tell

Doesn't mean he is going, though. The army has quite a few posts that are non-deployable (training or logistics or necessary specialties that need to stay CONUS). Many of my friends are in them right now to avoid getting deployed for a third time. Would you like email addresses? They have signed contracts that say "non-deployable."

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Tully Mars

I'm a Veteran, fours years Navy. I served starting 1983 and got my DD-214 in 1987. I was lied to back then regarding the ability of the Navy to retain me past the 4 yrs I agreed to serve. Granted they didn't keep me longer. But they lied none the less.

That was then, this is now. Now there's a war going on and they're having trouble finding people to fill quotas. They upped the age limit. They've lowered the minimum educational requirements. They're taking people with criminal histories they would have shown the door to in years past.

My daughter is currently in the Coast Guard. She finished Cape May this past summer and is stationed in Florida. She considered several other services prior to joining the CG. I sat down with her and the recruiters from the Navy and the Air Force. They both lied on several issues. The Navy guy couldn't even keep his lies straight. Don't think he was used to dealing with people who do their homework.

So that's the end of the 100% of that survey and that too is..say it with me... "fact."

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Plan9

2 out of 3 ain't bad.

...

What were the lies about, anyway? Pay? Stations? Occupational specialty?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

Looking at the situation, there is simply no way for the recruiter to know that the kid won't go to Iraq. Considering what I've seen happen to my high school buddies, it's very likely that the young man would have been in Iraq had he signed up. Fortunately, I was there and gave him more complete answers including, "It's entirely possible that if you were to sign up you'd be stationed somewhere in Iraq."

Tully, thanks for coming forward. I hope your daughter is safe in her service.

Seaver

3 out of 4. Why do you keep ignoring me?

I have 3 friends in the Military who will never go to Iraq. 2 are Logistics and 1 is trainer. So not a lie.

No one person signed a contract which resulted in different outcomes. That is the key, they are specifically TOLD TO READ THE ENTIRE CONTRACT. I went through recruitment twice, both times this was carried out. For those who don't read the contract I have as much sympathy as a person who pays 20% interest on their mortgage, it's their own fault.

Sorry, but you have a stupid friend if he thinks he signs up in a time of not one but two wars and won't fight. While possible, he should realize the reality.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Plan9

Meatloaf song, dude. C'mon. I know some of you turds are older than me!

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Tully Mars

I'll assume you mean lies directed at my daughter recently?


"You're female so it not even legal for us to send you to Iraq"

"Look, you join, you get to boot camp and you find it's not for you all you have to do is ring a bell outside the dorm and you're on the next flight home. No questioned asked, we don't want you if you don't want to be there."

"You're female, we need females. The day you complete Basic you'll make E-4. E-4 will get you guarantied off base housing even being single. That alone can nearly double your pay."


I was lied to, my daughter was lied to. That's 50%... not 2 out of 3.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Willravel

Your admission that my friend is stupid means that you understand that the recruiter misinterpreted the truth. Thank you for that, whether it was intentional or not.

Plan9

1. Hah. Which is why so many of my guys got laid by sweaty women wearing uniforms.

2. Boot camp does not equal USN BUDS training.

3. *snort-cackle-snort-turns-blue*

Yeah, those would all be lies. Hopefully everybody could smell the bullshit.

...

And I'm sorry, but the "we need females" line made me cackle.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Tully Mars

So you say you have three friends who will never go to Iraq, so it's not a lie...

and...

you're saying someone else is stupid if they believe that if they join during two wars they won't go to war.

That logic seems to contradict itself.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Plan9

Enlisted members who have jobs that don't deploy + possibility of joining and not getting a job that is non-deployable = logic to me.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Tully Mars

Coast Guard guy told her the same thing. She and a male friend signed and swore in on the same day. Her signing bonus was double his, 12k. I don't know the real story because she had nearly completed her B.S. degree. Don't know where he was in school.


I think the bottom line is more and more pressure is being put on recruiters to deliver. The result of that is more and more often the recruiters are cutting corners to get slots filled.

I know I read an article sometime back where at least one recruiter was using his own urine to get clean UA's on would be recruits.

Went back and read it again= still bad logic to me.


I don't see where you can respond to a statement that a person was lied to when told "you won't go to Iraq" with:

I have 3 friends in the Military who will never go to Iraq. 2 are Logistics and 1 is trainer. So not a lie.

And state:

Sorry, but you have a stupid friend if he thinks he signs up in a time of not one but two wars and won't fight. While possible, he should realize the reality.

But it does sound like you agree the guy's being lied to, just that he's stupid for believing it.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Seaver

If you have half a BS, you are considered to have an Associates Degree. You get a bigger bonus plus generally rank of E2 upon leaving Boot Camp.

It does happen, the likelihood is small though. That's like saying if we knew someone won the lottery, someone spending money on it is a smart investment.

Besides, my friends were in the military prior to 9/11. Those non-deployable positions are few and far between, getting into one in a time of war is difficult to say the least (though still possible).

So you and your daughter were lied to, that is unfortunate. My question remains, did anyone present a contract which contradicted what would actually occur?

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

dc_dux

From the GAO report on Military Recruiting Irregularities in 2005, based on reporting by the DoD:
38 cases of coercion
74 cases of fall promises
38 cases of misconduct

also:
420 cases of recruiter concealing medical/criminal record of potential recruits
110 cases of recruiter falsifying documents
47 cases of illegal testing
61 cases of "other" irregularities

Not included: the more than 6,000 "unsubstantiated cases" of recruiting irregularities when it was recruiters word against the recruits.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

HA! So we've gone from it doesn't happen to it does, but it's rare. Are we really going to have to dance until you finally, and begrudgingly accept this is common practice?
I already answered this strawman.
Clear enough? This is about the words coming out of mouths, not pages and pages of paper.

sprocket

Nah, I'm much less enthusiastic about RP these days. I even toyed with voting for Fred Thompson for a while, even though I think his foreign policy was wrong. But I can still be a libertarian conservative, and think RP would make a bad president

__________________
Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

Martian

Logic! Whee!

Logically,

"I have three friends in the military who will never deploy,"

and

"new recruits are likely to be deployed,"

are not contradictory statements. Even if we take the second statement as a certainty (ie, "new recruits will always be deployed,") there's still no contradiction inherent unless the three friends are new recruits. If we apply these two statements analytically to the recruiter's statement "you will not deploy," we still can't draw any firm conclusions although it does point to the probability that the recruiter was at the least stretching the truth a bit. Without knowing the context in which the recruiter made that statement, it's difficult or impossible to say with any certainty that he was lying. If, for example, the prospective recruit had asked "what if I get assigned to job X?" with job X being his job of choice and also being one of the jobs that is non-deployable, the recruiter could have made his statement without contradicting either of the two above.

Also, oversimplifying leads to heated arguments over nothing. 'Some recruiters lie some of the time' != 'all recruiters lie all the time.' Inversely, 'some recruiters are honest with all new recruits' != 'all recruiters are honest with all recruits.'

I am not American and I have a permanent disability that disqualifies me from service, so the larger debate really has no bearing on me whatsoever. If anyone wants to accuse me of bias, however, I will be glad to facilitate it by pointing out that if I didn't have a permanent disability I'd probably be in the forces today.

EDIT -

Out of curiosity, do you know what the overall recruitment figures for 2005 were? It'd be interesting to see what those figures amount to in the context of total recruits.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Tully Mars

I'm a little lost on your Lotto analogy, but not sure it matters.

She walked out of basic an E-3.

In regards to contradictions by contracts. In my case yes, but the contract where basically shoved in your face and you signed then back then. Everyone I talked to in basic said nearly the same thing.

In regards to my daughter the Navy and Air Force were never pursued to the point of any contracts being viewed.

When she signed with the Guard they went through everything line by line. Even had a DVD they showed us. Everything was covered honestly, as far as I know.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

sprocket

Hilarious:

http://www.foxnews.com/printer_frien...327466,00.html

__________________
Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

Willravel

It should also be stated that it's VERY likely that most of this is not reported. Just looking at this thread, in which only a few military people have posted, we've already found glaring examples of dishonesty in recruitment. Either we hit the lotto, or Occam's razor tells us that this is quite common.

Seaver

Federal Funding Law:

There, fixed it for ya.

Sorry, this is not a strawman. The best example of lying recruiters in recent history was proven to contradict your statement.

I had the exact same experience both times, minus the DVD.

Thank you.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

dc_dux

I think a better measure is the number of recruiters, not the number of recruits.

There were 13,000+ recruiters, with an "irregular" practice rate of 4.7%. That roughly translates into 1 out of 20 to 25 recruiters doing something irregular, unethical or illegal, depending on multiple infractions by recruiters.

And again, these are only the "substantiated" irregularities.

An acceptable rate of unethical/criminal behavior? I wouldnt want my child to be dealing with that "one".

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

I've just written Jimmy DeMint. I hope he reads my message carefully:
Edit: the verification code to this page is broken. I'll be calling it in tomorrow or Monday.

Martian

A sample size of six isn't really enough to draw any conclusions, and Occam's razor is not applicable to this discussion in any way, shape or form.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Willravel

What are the odds of getting a 1/6 poll from a statistic like 6,000/every recruit in the past year? Not good, which leads us to...
What is more reasonable, we got a lotto winner or it's more common? The most likely answer is that it's more common, thus Occam's Razor is applicable.