dksuddeth

I just became a fan again.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

Justice CAN come before the law. That, imho, is one of the most magnificent things, ever.

Elphaba

I answered it, as have others.

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

Frosstbyte

Given the "wrong" set of jurors as opposed to the "right" set of jurors, it is also one of the most terrifying things ever.

waltert

I pretty much agree, and I would not be opposed to a death penalty for guys with records of violent crimes...something like three strikes and you're dead.

EDIT: I would like to add that the thought of spending life in prison is far worse than the death penalty in my eyes.

highthief

You asked me a question and I patiently and politely answered. I would have hoped for the same consideration but I suppose that was a bit much to expect from you ...

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

jorgelito

There are a few reasons why I against the death penalty:

1. Human error
You can also file corruption under this one too if you'd like. But quite simply, to exact such a huge punishment on a person based on a procedure that is seriously flawed (jury of peers, biased participants, lawyers etc) is a miscarriage of justice. I have sat on a couple of jury pools and witnessed the most horrifying details of our justice system. I also, unfortunately, have an intimate knowledge of the penal system and can only be grateful that I am not a part of it.

2. Raising the Standard
As a conservative, patriotic American, I take great pride in our country and is founding principles. I have traveled the world and very culturally knowledgeable. I know we have our issues and our disasters in the international arena, but I still believe in our ideals. Thus, I believe, we have to take a stand and stand by what we believe in and espouse to others. Like host said and I think Roachboy alluded to in the other thread, we have to be better than this. We have to rise above what I believe to be a barbaric act (death penalty) as punishment.If we want to hold other countries accountable to things like human rights, then we should demonstrate it ourselves and set the bar. In the same way that we don't tolerate torture etc, the death penalty should also be a thing of the past and of liberal socialist states.

3. Death Penalty doesn't work
I don't get the sense that the death penalty is a successful deterrent. Countries that have a high rate of death penalty such as China and Saudi Arabia, still have those crimes occurring. I mean, in China, they execute their corrupt officials and white collar criminals. Could you imagine that here (in the US)? Think the criminals in DC and boardrooms would continue their corrupt ways, *chuckle*? But to me the biggest point is, despite the death penalty, murder and rapes still occur.

I'm sorry, but I will channel DK here and suggest that having a well armed citizenry (lawful) serves as the best form of criminal deterrence in my opinion.

Plan9

THIS JUST IN: Everybody not shot by John Smith Vigilantepants will be sentenced to life imprisonment in a cushy government resort.

Why again do we have government? To govern, perhaps?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

Funny, here I thought the best forms of criminal deterrence were access to social programs and the elimination of poverty.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Ustwo

Yes it is funny you think that.

Anyways, my stance on the death penalty is that once you have taken an innocent life you have forfeited yours. Its not about a deterrent, we don't execute frequently enough for that. Its not about rehabilitation, I don't care if they are now sorry and can convince some social worker they are fit for society. Its about punishment and vengeance and justice for those who knew the victim.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

Punishment? And how would one be punished by death?
Vengeance? You've got that right.
Justice for the victims? As I've said, the victims don't feel better after the execution. In fact, often times they feel worse. That's why vengeance is traditionally frowned upon: it's hollow for people of conscience. You commit the act of vengeance and... now you feel even worse.

Is your wish for vengeance really worth making the victims feel even worse? Haven't they been through enough?

Ustwo

Oh I dunno, something about it seems sort of harsh to me.


You rape and murder my wife, I'm not going to feel worse, sorry will, it doesn't work that way. Bunch of psychobabble there will, at least as it would pertain to me. I have to wonder why so many family members witness the executions, maybe just to feel bad eh?

Lets take a brief look at those who witnessed the execution of Timothy McVey...

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../11/se.08.html

Whats hilarious is you can tell that they want them to say something bad about the execution.
So sorry Willy I don't buy that pyschobabble.

Oh so now being against the death penalty is for the victims eh? Give me a break, ask Mr. Howell there if he wants you to protect him from it.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Baraka_Guru

I never pegged you as an essentialist....

....nor one whose values run parallel to the Old Testament and the Qur'an--though, I will point out that the latter takes a slightly more compassionate stance than you do.

How about another?

After reading the article, I'm even more convinced that not much good can come out of witnessing an execution. And remember that there are two sides to the show. This can't be healthy for anyone.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Ustwo

Shocking that a site dedicated to abolishing the death penalty would have anti-death penalty articles, I'll take my raw news feed of the witnesses instead, no time for manipulation in those.

Perhaps which makes this topic somewhat comical to me is the thread in sexuality about male rape. How many men there stated they would kill their rapist. Apparently sticking a dick in another mans ass is grounds for death yet not the murder of innocents.

Edit: Oh and it was the reporters they surveyed? Dear jebus.......those poor reporters.

Edit:Edit QUIT EDITING YOUR POST AS I RESPOND YOU HOSER. You neglected in your quote to point out it was the REPORTERS who had a hard time, not the victims families.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

The punishment is the time before death. The death itself really isn't anything.
Psychobabble isn't a word that I recognize. Kinda like when people call police officers "pigs". You'll have to use something else if people are going to understand what you're communicating.

The people witness the deaths now being aware of what's to come, considering that having a looking glass into the future really is quite rare and all. The nice thing about being educated on a subject is that when I say something I know and that I've had extensive training with and someone without the benefit of that training simply says "Nope, not true," it just tells me that I was very fortunate to have that education. The reality, based on studies and precedence, is that most of the family and friends of victims in a case in which the accused is executed tend to have higher and more severe depression after the execution. Odds are if, in some bizarro alternate universe, I were to rape and kill your wife, be arrested and found guilty, and was sentenced to death, you'd end up worse off from a psychological standpoint after my execution.
I'm sure you'll notice that this interview was very soon after the execution. The day after, in fact. Had you been properly instructed and educated, you'd understand that depression rarely sets in after less than 24 hours. As a matter of fact, it can take months. So all that you've done here is demonstrated a state of mind called shock. Statistically speaking, Mr. Howell probably did go through some sort of serious depression some time after this interview. It's possible he didn't, just like it's possible that I can flip a coin and get heads a few dozen times in a row, but realistically speaking it's not unreasonable to guess.

Ustwo

I'm sure he did, really I'm sure, because you said so.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

It's because I have the first clue about how it works and because it happens to most everyone. Do you have anything to back up your claim beyond how you'd imagine things might be in a hypothetical situation in which I (a pacifist, bleeding heart liberal, anti-death penalty, anti war flower child) rape and kill your wife? Is that the entire foundation of your argument? "I think I might react this way, you know, cause I'd be all pissed and shit".

Ustwo

I'm sorry will you do have an agenda here. You are looking for a secondary reason as its not your primary reason for opposing the death penalty.

Its witnessing an execution traumatic? Sure, but so what. You are trying to claim you oppose it for the victims which is just bullshit, I'll let them answer not some young psychologist who is fundamentally opposed to the entire concept.

So sure they were happy about it after, but we need to wait months and months and THEN see they were depressed they were thinking about their loved one and the execution, see its traumatic on them! I mean who would have thought that the murder of a loved one might come back to haunt someone even after an execution!

And yes I'm sure at times it does bring up old wounds, after all it takes so fucking long to execute someone. Perhaps speeding it up such as with McVey will help that part out too.

I have an idea will, lets let the next of kin decide and render your argument moot. Oh wait I forget, as a liberal, people don't know whats good for them and you need to get the government to decide for them, my bad

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

So when someone gives evidence supporting their position, that automatically means you ignore the evidence?

Victim's welfare is one of many reasons I oppose the death penalty. I also oppose it because of it's inability to deter, the inability of the justice system to actually find guilty people guilty and innocent people innocent, the horrible methods by which we kill, the amount of time someone spends on death row, the idea that the state can just up and kill people, the fact that it has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with vengeance... the list goes on. The welfare of the victims is part of a much larger case, but you brought it up so I figured I'd address it. Primary? I dunno. It's there.
Again, you're talking about something you have absolutely no experience with or education for. The depression from the death is compounded by the execution, not alleviated by it as you would have people (including yourself) think. People who don't go through the experience of having the guilty or supposedly guilty party put to death don't have that.
Why are you so afraid of the learned and trained professionals who know exactly what's going on? I'll tell you what, let's compromise and have a licensed therapist speak to the next of kin to the victim who was killed by someone who was eventually put to death. Then we can have the therapist tell us how the death of the convicted criminal was wonderful for them, in the short term (months) and the long term (years).

dksuddeth

no, not to govern. That is such a huge misconception that is taken entirely at face value now so as to make me sick. I did not elect a king, monarch, baron, or warlord. I elected someone to protect my rights, which is what governments under this countrys constitution were created for, to protect our rights. nothing else, nothing more.

um, how about 'non-sensical ramblings of strung together words that are related to psychiatric and psychological fields of medicine, which are designed to either intimidate or denigrate another person in to feeling that they aren't educated enough to understand what the person is really saying is bullshit'?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Plan9

*gameshow buzzer* Sorry, you'll have to submit your answer in the form of something that isn't akin to wishing on shooting stars or really hoping that unicorns exist because you want to ride one down a rainbow some day. The only thing that should make you sick here is that our fine republic-based society has developed into this bipartisan bullshitfest that means minimal progress for those who actually need it and that Botox'd stuffed shirts pretty much dictate / regulate just about every important (and some not) part of our lives from fuel prices for your oversized SUV to how much you pay to kill yourself with booze and alcohol to if you can still possess a privately civilian firearm (those "brutal tools from a by-gone age").

Middle school civics suggests that governments maintain order, establish standards, host civil services, and protect rights. Other stuff too, I'd imagine... the national debt has to be rocking into a squillion digits as I write this so there must be a few other things somewhere out there.

The thing that makes me sick? People who still think this country is "by the people, for the people" while crapping on their own Constitution. Not suggesting that you are... but let's get real about the America-Fuck-Yeah complex.

When was the last time someone you voted for actually did something for you and did it involve the chess club in high school?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

1) These are excerpts; it's everyone's responsibility to read the article, 2) the article was published in the Washington Post, 3) reporters are human, so are victims. I think they share the similar physiology and psychology.... I'm not sure. I'll try to dig up some articles on that. 4) Did you read the article? 5) Would you comment on some of the key points? 6) Or would you rather continue paring everything down to fragments of meaning so they continue to support your view? 7) Do you know how to be comprehensive?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Sun Tzu

Im not saying I disagree with you, Im just wondering if you could steer me in the write direction of statisitics that gave you this information.

Thanks

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Willravel

Sun Tzu

Interesting information, according to the information not only is the death penalty not a deterent- the murder rate is lower in states without capital punishment. (for anyone interested)

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

dksuddeth

Or it could serve as notice that criminals won't kill their victims to remove witnesses to their crimes because a death sentence is no longer feared. Notice that it does nothing to deter crime, it only serves as providing no incentive to kill witnesses. Some people are ok with this, a high crime rate but less murders, still with no way to deter crime.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Baraka_Guru

Would this mean that states holding onto the death penalty are those with deeper social problems? Is it worth noting that besides the U.S., those who still carry out the death penalty are (for the most part) most of Asia, the Middle East, and Africa?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

Deterrence doesn't work. Prevention does. It is the one and only solution to crime.

Plan9

Said deterrence would work a lot better if death row wasn't 15 years of Constitution-raping ritualistic appeals.

That and skull poles outside the White House.

...

Capital punishment needs to be revised to be effective.

We can't lock up the entire planet.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

The idea isn't to lock everyone up, it's to prevent crime in the first place. Imagine almost empty prisons, no death row, and very low crime rates. Not a bad place, eh?

Plan9

Preventing crime is preventing human nature. Our existence is a story of conflict over time. The variables may change, but the equation is the same.

...

We're so civilized in our stability. I like how the riots during Katrina proved it.

Somebody... somewhere... has to hold a big stick.

The question is: Who do you want holding said stick?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

Stability?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

How many times have you committed premeditated and unprovoked murder? Never? So does that mean you can actually behave in a way that's contrary to "human nature", or does that mean that killing someone isn't human nature?

Hain

@ Willravel:
While I find Crompsin's statement far fetched, when taken down a notch it has truth. Can you honestly say that you haven't contemplated murdering someone at some point in your life? If you haven't... wow...

The potential for heinous crimes is always there as at some point the thoughts of heinous crimes will appear. The difference always is what is innate to us (how the brain is wired), and what was imprinted to us (experiences that shaped our thinking). You being a psych major know that one is intricately connected to the other, however you cannot argue with me that sometimes there is just something wrong with one's brain that lets these heinous thoughts become actions.

The questions is: how do we work at that level to prevent crime? Describe other levels of crime prevention? More cops? More awareness? What?

Again, I am against the death penalty. However, what are countries with the death penalty (and have very high murder rates, like the USA) doing wrong compared to countries without the death penalty?

EDITS: let me amend this thought. We are arguing whether death penalty works as a deterrent. What other methods of deterrence are their? Do we have more cops? Institute some kind of social awareness? Bring in the Salvation Army? What? Countries with the death penalty have it because they feel that there is nothing left for them to try to stop the murder rate. What are these countries with the death penalty not trying?

CLARIFICATION: How many people have honestly not wanted the premature death of another person? Whether it was imagined at one's own hand or by that of a bus? In your mind you still wanted that person dead; part of being human. The potential to follow through such acts is based on then life experiences and the innate and uncontrollable wiring of one's brain. If someone has honestly never once thought, "I wish that person was dead," ... give that someone a medal.

__________________

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Baraka_Guru

There is a difference between: 1) we have the desire and capacity to commit murder as a part of our nature, and 2) we have the capacity to commit murder, and, under certain conditions, we do commit such an act.


A man who goes through his entire life without wanting to murder (or actually murdering) another is not denying his nature. What has been accomplished is that he has left out in his life certain human experiences that he deemed unsavoury, non-essential, or a combination thereof.

EDIT: The death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent because of this: Few people avoid the act of murder out of fear of state-sanctioned executions. They avoid it simply because they don't want to get caught at all. They avoid it because of the danger involved, or, perhaps, because of the inconvenience of having to "lay low" for a while.

So why do people murder, then, if they know there are penalties or inconveniences? I doubt these factors play much a role when the decision is made. I'm sure murderers hope for the best in their actions. "I won't get caught; I'll leave no witnesses." But, realistically, I'm sure many acts of murder involve lapses in thought. Deterrents are useless when they don't factor in at all. Fear, anger, madness. That the idea of death row doesn't come into mind wouldn't surprise me.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Deltona Couple

I am curious where you got your information from? Do you not consider China or the Russian Federation as an "industrialized" nation? Both of these countries support and use the death penalty. Also, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, has anyone considered that in those contries as well, their crime rate is lower than in the U.S. BECAUSE their death penaties are actually LESS strict than here in the U.S.?


Will, while I support your rights to oppose the death penalty, I would prefer that you used the media, and public voice to fight against it, than try to, in my opinion, sneak in the back door.


Also, earlier in this thread it was mentioned I believe that Texas has the highest criminal population, as well as the highest execution rate than any other state.... Um.... HELLO! Texas has the largest POPULATION as well...I think that MIGHT have something to do with it.

Interesting article, however I am curious how the individual states break down based on poulation DENSITY as well as overall population. (This leading to the thought of is the murder rate higher in relation to the DENSITY of the population, compared to the overall population fo the individual states) Also, I do not see that there is any PROOF that the death penalty is not a deterent. This page is a factual breakdown of the numbers. Only by interviewing each and every criminal that commited a murder could one TRULY find out if that states death penalty, or lack therof had any input in their decision. Remember that a large number of murders are "crimes of passion" where there was no premeditation, or opportunity to CONSIDER the ramifications of their actions. I find that this article, while informative, does not properly calculate the true reasons behind "do i commit murder or not based on this state's capital punishment laws?"

__________________
"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison

Baraka_Guru

The numbers in Texas are also higher when you consider the rate expressed as a percentage or as per 100,000 people, which is a fairer comparison. The real population number is highest likely because of the total population of Texas, but even so, the rate of incarceration and execution is disproportionate as compared to most other states.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

Well look at it this way: should there be only people who support the death penalty on juries where the death penalty may be an option? Does that seem fair?
Texas does not have the largest population. We do here in California. 22m in Tex, and 36m in Cal.

Hain

@ Baraka_Buru:
I will clarify so that there is no case 1 and 2. How many people have honestly not wanted the premature death of another person? Whether it was imagined at one's own hand or by that of a bus? In your mind you still wanted that person dead; part of being human. The potential to follow through such acts is based on then life experiences and innate uncontrolled wiring of one's brain. If someone has honestly never once thought, "I wish that person was dead," ... give that someone a medal.

Also, It is not a fair compromise to use numbers based on per 100,000 people, because we'd be assuming that there is a linear correlation between criminal population and population density. I have no numbers and do not know where to begin to back up this analogy. Look at a concert: if there are few people, there there is a less chance of a mosh happening. Many people, mosh pit. When adding more people, do you think that a proportionate amount of people are not going to be moshing? For instance, every 4 people you send into a moshing crowd, will 2 always not participate in the fight? Remember more people more and more likely chance to start bumping around. It is comparable to a mob mentality, in this example. Due note, I am not suggesting that a high murder rate in a region is self-propagating.

Again, I am all for those other ways to deter and prevent murders, WILL! [kidding, but any reading material on the subject would nice. even sits on the back of the pot reading material]

__________________

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Deltona Couple

On statement 1: I am NOT in any way suggesting that. but by having someone deceive the court knowingly, whether directly or indirectly makes me concerned. Of course I guess with the imperfect system we have already there isn't that much of a difference.

On statement 2: Sorry, I forgot that California has a larger population.


If the numbers are as you say, why does the website not show this? I would like to see your research that proves this data.

__________________
"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison