11-28-2007, 02:18 PM | #121 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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11-28-2007, 02:30 PM | #123 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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I answered it, as have others.
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"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007 |
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11-28-2007, 02:54 PM | #124 (permalink) | |
Winter is Coming
Location: The North
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11-28-2007, 03:48 PM | #125 (permalink) | |
Insane
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EDIT: I would like to add that the thought of spending life in prison is far worse than the death penalty in my eyes. Last edited by waltert; 11-28-2007 at 04:02 PM.. |
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11-28-2007, 03:55 PM | #126 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Si vis pacem parabellum. |
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11-28-2007, 04:27 PM | #127 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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There are a few reasons why I against the death penalty:
1. Human error You can also file corruption under this one too if you'd like. But quite simply, to exact such a huge punishment on a person based on a procedure that is seriously flawed (jury of peers, biased participants, lawyers etc) is a miscarriage of justice. I have sat on a couple of jury pools and witnessed the most horrifying details of our justice system. I also, unfortunately, have an intimate knowledge of the penal system and can only be grateful that I am not a part of it. 2. Raising the Standard As a conservative, patriotic American, I take great pride in our country and is founding principles. I have traveled the world and very culturally knowledgeable. I know we have our issues and our disasters in the international arena, but I still believe in our ideals. Thus, I believe, we have to take a stand and stand by what we believe in and espouse to others. Like host said and I think Roachboy alluded to in the other thread, we have to be better than this. We have to rise above what I believe to be a barbaric act (death penalty) as punishment.If we want to hold other countries accountable to things like human rights, then we should demonstrate it ourselves and set the bar. In the same way that we don't tolerate torture etc, the death penalty should also be a thing of the past and of liberal socialist states. 3. Death Penalty doesn't work I don't get the sense that the death penalty is a successful deterrent. Countries that have a high rate of death penalty such as China and Saudi Arabia, still have those crimes occurring. I mean, in China, they execute their corrupt officials and white collar criminals. Could you imagine that here (in the US)? Think the criminals in DC and boardrooms would continue their corrupt ways, *chuckle*? But to me the biggest point is, despite the death penalty, murder and rapes still occur. I'm sorry, but I will channel DK here and suggest that having a well armed citizenry (lawful) serves as the best form of criminal deterrence in my opinion. |
11-28-2007, 06:25 PM | #128 (permalink) | |
I Confess a Shiver
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Why again do we have government? To govern, perhaps? Last edited by Plan9; 11-28-2007 at 06:29 PM.. |
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11-28-2007, 06:34 PM | #129 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Funny, here I thought the best forms of criminal deterrence were access to social programs and the elimination of poverty.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
11-28-2007, 07:55 PM | #130 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Anyways, my stance on the death penalty is that once you have taken an innocent life you have forfeited yours. Its not about a deterrent, we don't execute frequently enough for that. Its not about rehabilitation, I don't care if they are now sorry and can convince some social worker they are fit for society. Its about punishment and vengeance and justice for those who knew the victim.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 11-28-2007 at 08:04 PM.. |
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11-28-2007, 08:21 PM | #131 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Vengeance? You've got that right. Justice for the victims? As I've said, the victims don't feel better after the execution. In fact, often times they feel worse. That's why vengeance is traditionally frowned upon: it's hollow for people of conscience. You commit the act of vengeance and... now you feel even worse. Is your wish for vengeance really worth making the victims feel even worse? Haven't they been through enough? |
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11-28-2007, 08:44 PM | #132 (permalink) | ||||||
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Lets take a brief look at those who witnessed the execution of Timothy McVey... Quote:
Whats hilarious is you can tell that they want them to say something bad about the execution. Quote:
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-28-2007, 08:46 PM | #133 (permalink) | |||||
warrior bodhisattva
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Location: East-central Canada
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 11-28-2007 at 09:07 PM.. |
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11-28-2007, 09:16 PM | #134 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Perhaps which makes this topic somewhat comical to me is the thread in sexuality about male rape. How many men there stated they would kill their rapist. Apparently sticking a dick in another mans ass is grounds for death yet not the murder of innocents. Edit: Oh and it was the reporters they surveyed? Dear jebus.......those poor reporters. Edit:Edit QUIT EDITING YOUR POST AS I RESPOND YOU HOSER. You neglected in your quote to point out it was the REPORTERS who had a hard time, not the victims families.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 11-28-2007 at 09:19 PM.. |
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11-28-2007, 09:18 PM | #135 (permalink) | |||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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The people witness the deaths now being aware of what's to come, considering that having a looking glass into the future really is quite rare and all. The nice thing about being educated on a subject is that when I say something I know and that I've had extensive training with and someone without the benefit of that training simply says "Nope, not true," it just tells me that I was very fortunate to have that education. The reality, based on studies and precedence, is that most of the family and friends of victims in a case in which the accused is executed tend to have higher and more severe depression after the execution. Odds are if, in some bizarro alternate universe, I were to rape and kill your wife, be arrested and found guilty, and was sentenced to death, you'd end up worse off from a psychological standpoint after my execution. Quote:
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11-28-2007, 09:20 PM | #136 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-28-2007, 09:29 PM | #137 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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11-28-2007, 10:12 PM | #138 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Its witnessing an execution traumatic? Sure, but so what. You are trying to claim you oppose it for the victims which is just bullshit, I'll let them answer not some young psychologist who is fundamentally opposed to the entire concept. So sure they were happy about it after, but we need to wait months and months and THEN see they were depressed they were thinking about their loved one and the execution, see its traumatic on them! I mean who would have thought that the murder of a loved one might come back to haunt someone even after an execution! And yes I'm sure at times it does bring up old wounds, after all it takes so fucking long to execute someone. Perhaps speeding it up such as with McVey will help that part out too. I have an idea will, lets let the next of kin decide and render your argument moot. Oh wait I forget, as a liberal, people don't know whats good for them and you need to get the government to decide for them, my bad
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 11-28-2007 at 10:28 PM.. Reason: comma |
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11-28-2007, 10:28 PM | #139 (permalink) | |||
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Victim's welfare is one of many reasons I oppose the death penalty. I also oppose it because of it's inability to deter, the inability of the justice system to actually find guilty people guilty and innocent people innocent, the horrible methods by which we kill, the amount of time someone spends on death row, the idea that the state can just up and kill people, the fact that it has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with vengeance... the list goes on. The welfare of the victims is part of a much larger case, but you brought it up so I figured I'd address it. Primary? I dunno. It's there. Quote:
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11-29-2007, 02:36 AM | #140 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." Last edited by dksuddeth; 11-29-2007 at 02:40 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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11-29-2007, 03:45 AM | #141 (permalink) | |
I Confess a Shiver
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Middle school civics suggests that governments maintain order, establish standards, host civil services, and protect rights. Other stuff too, I'd imagine... the national debt has to be rocking into a squillion digits as I write this so there must be a few other things somewhere out there. The thing that makes me sick? People who still think this country is "by the people, for the people" while crapping on their own Constitution. Not suggesting that you are... but let's get real about the America-Fuck-Yeah complex. When was the last time someone you voted for actually did something for you and did it involve the chess club in high school? Last edited by Plan9; 11-29-2007 at 03:50 AM.. |
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11-29-2007, 04:36 AM | #142 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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11-30-2007, 08:44 PM | #143 (permalink) | |
Conspiracy Realist
Location: The Event Horizon
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Thanks
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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking |
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12-01-2007, 10:31 AM | #145 (permalink) |
Conspiracy Realist
Location: The Event Horizon
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Interesting information, according to the information not only is the death penalty not a deterent- the murder rate is lower in states without capital punishment. (for anyone interested)
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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking |
12-01-2007, 10:42 AM | #146 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Or it could serve as notice that criminals won't kill their victims to remove witnesses to their crimes because a death sentence is no longer feared. Notice that it does nothing to deter crime, it only serves as providing no incentive to kill witnesses. Some people are ok with this, a high crime rate but less murders, still with no way to deter crime.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
12-01-2007, 10:43 AM | #147 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Would this mean that states holding onto the death penalty are those with deeper social problems? Is it worth noting that besides the U.S., those who still carry out the death penalty are (for the most part) most of Asia, the Middle East, and Africa?
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
12-01-2007, 11:40 AM | #149 (permalink) |
I Confess a Shiver
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Said deterrence would work a lot better if death row wasn't 15 years of Constitution-raping ritualistic appeals.
That and skull poles outside the White House. ... Capital punishment needs to be revised to be effective. We can't lock up the entire planet. Last edited by Plan9; 12-01-2007 at 11:43 AM.. |
12-01-2007, 11:45 AM | #151 (permalink) |
I Confess a Shiver
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Preventing crime is preventing human nature. Our existence is a story of conflict over time. The variables may change, but the equation is the same.
... We're so civilized in our stability. I like how the riots during Katrina proved it. Somebody... somewhere... has to hold a big stick. The question is: Who do you want holding said stick? Last edited by Plan9; 12-01-2007 at 11:48 AM.. |
12-01-2007, 12:07 PM | #152 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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12-01-2007, 12:57 PM | #153 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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12-01-2007, 01:16 PM | #154 (permalink) |
has a plan
Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere
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@ Willravel:
While I find Crompsin's statement far fetched, when taken down a notch it has truth. Can you honestly say that you haven't contemplated murdering someone at some point in your life? If you haven't... wow... The potential for heinous crimes is always there as at some point the thoughts of heinous crimes will appear. The difference always is what is innate to us (how the brain is wired), and what was imprinted to us (experiences that shaped our thinking). You being a psych major know that one is intricately connected to the other, however you cannot argue with me that sometimes there is just something wrong with one's brain that lets these heinous thoughts become actions. The questions is: how do we work at that level to prevent crime? Describe other levels of crime prevention? More cops? More awareness? What? Again, I am against the death penalty. However, what are countries with the death penalty (and have very high murder rates, like the USA) doing wrong compared to countries without the death penalty? EDITS: let me amend this thought. We are arguing whether death penalty works as a deterrent. What other methods of deterrence are their? Do we have more cops? Institute some kind of social awareness? Bring in the Salvation Army? What? Countries with the death penalty have it because they feel that there is nothing left for them to try to stop the murder rate. What are these countries with the death penalty not trying? CLARIFICATION: How many people have honestly not wanted the premature death of another person? Whether it was imagined at one's own hand or by that of a bus? In your mind you still wanted that person dead; part of being human. The potential to follow through such acts is based on then life experiences and the innate and uncontrollable wiring of one's brain. If someone has honestly never once thought, "I wish that person was dead," ... give that someone a medal.
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Last edited by Hain; 12-02-2007 at 03:43 AM.. Reason: clarification |
12-01-2007, 01:27 PM | #155 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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There is a difference between: 1) we have the desire and capacity to commit murder as a part of our nature, and 2) we have the capacity to commit murder, and, under certain conditions, we do commit such an act.
A man who goes through his entire life without wanting to murder (or actually murdering) another is not denying his nature. What has been accomplished is that he has left out in his life certain human experiences that he deemed unsavoury, non-essential, or a combination thereof. EDIT: The death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent because of this: Few people avoid the act of murder out of fear of state-sanctioned executions. They avoid it simply because they don't want to get caught at all. They avoid it because of the danger involved, or, perhaps, because of the inconvenience of having to "lay low" for a while. So why do people murder, then, if they know there are penalties or inconveniences? I doubt these factors play much a role when the decision is made. I'm sure murderers hope for the best in their actions. "I won't get caught; I'll leave no witnesses." But, realistically, I'm sure many acts of murder involve lapses in thought. Deterrents are useless when they don't factor in at all. Fear, anger, madness. That the idea of death row doesn't come into mind wouldn't surprise me.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 12-01-2007 at 01:34 PM.. |
12-01-2007, 09:28 PM | #156 (permalink) | ||||
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Also, earlier in this thread it was mentioned I believe that Texas has the highest criminal population, as well as the highest execution rate than any other state.... Um.... HELLO! Texas has the largest POPULATION as well...I think that MIGHT have something to do with it. Quote:
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"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison |
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12-01-2007, 10:33 PM | #157 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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12-01-2007, 11:05 PM | #158 (permalink) | ||
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12-02-2007, 03:41 AM | #159 (permalink) |
has a plan
Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere
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@ Baraka_Buru:
I will clarify so that there is no case 1 and 2. How many people have honestly not wanted the premature death of another person? Whether it was imagined at one's own hand or by that of a bus? In your mind you still wanted that person dead; part of being human. The potential to follow through such acts is based on then life experiences and innate uncontrolled wiring of one's brain. If someone has honestly never once thought, "I wish that person was dead," ... give that someone a medal. Also, It is not a fair compromise to use numbers based on per 100,000 people, because we'd be assuming that there is a linear correlation between criminal population and population density. I have no numbers and do not know where to begin to back up this analogy. Look at a concert: if there are few people, there there is a less chance of a mosh happening. Many people, mosh pit. When adding more people, do you think that a proportionate amount of people are not going to be moshing? For instance, every 4 people you send into a moshing crowd, will 2 always not participate in the fight? Remember more people more and more likely chance to start bumping around. It is comparable to a mob mentality, in this example. Due note, I am not suggesting that a high murder rate in a region is self-propagating. Again, I am all for those other ways to deter and prevent murders, WILL! [kidding, but any reading material on the subject would nice. even sits on the back of the pot reading material]
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Last edited by Hain; 12-02-2007 at 03:44 AM.. |
12-03-2007, 06:37 AM | #160 (permalink) | ||
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On statement 1: I am NOT in any way suggesting that. but by having someone deceive the court knowingly, whether directly or indirectly makes me concerned. Of course I guess with the imperfect system we have already there isn't that much of a difference. On statement 2: Sorry, I forgot that California has a larger population. Quote:
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"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison |
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