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Old 11-28-2007, 02:18 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Google "jury nullification".
I just became a fan again.
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Old 11-28-2007, 02:26 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
I just became a fan again.
Justice CAN come before the law. That, imho, is one of the most magnificent things, ever.
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Old 11-28-2007, 02:30 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
So you don't agree with the death penalty.

I ask you this, because so far no one else is answering.

Hypothetically someones guilt was 100% in a horrible murder. Why do you feel the death penalty is not appropriate?

I answered it, as have others.
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Old 11-28-2007, 02:54 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Justice CAN come before the law. That, imho, is one of the most magnificent things, ever.
Given the "wrong" set of jurors as opposed to the "right" set of jurors, it is also one of the most terrifying things ever.
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Old 11-28-2007, 03:48 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
There are two distinct questions here.

#1 - Hypothetically assuming guilt is 100% do you support the death penalty for some crimes?

#2 - Do you support the death penalty knowing that guilt can never be 100% proven?

#1 - I support without question. Some people are unfit to live in society in any form, and are a danger to others. Once that danger is demonstrated without a doubt they have forfeited their lives.

#2 - I support with caveats. As to what those caveats are I am not prepared to write a position paper on capital punishment, as to what 'level' of proof need be achieved or the nature of the crime. Things like premeditation, motive, and type of evidence would all play a role.
I pretty much agree, and I would not be opposed to a death penalty for guys with records of violent crimes...something like three strikes and you're dead.

EDIT: I would like to add that the thought of spending life in prison is far worse than the death penalty in my eyes.

Last edited by waltert; 11-28-2007 at 04:02 PM..
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Old 11-28-2007, 03:55 PM   #126 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ustwo
So many hours in the day, and this is my past time between patients. Now you have to wait extra time for being pushy and impatient, thats not polite.
You asked me a question and I patiently and politely answered. I would have hoped for the same consideration but I suppose that was a bit much to expect from you ...
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Old 11-28-2007, 04:27 PM   #127 (permalink)
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There are a few reasons why I against the death penalty:

1. Human error
You can also file corruption under this one too if you'd like. But quite simply, to exact such a huge punishment on a person based on a procedure that is seriously flawed (jury of peers, biased participants, lawyers etc) is a miscarriage of justice. I have sat on a couple of jury pools and witnessed the most horrifying details of our justice system. I also, unfortunately, have an intimate knowledge of the penal system and can only be grateful that I am not a part of it.

2. Raising the Standard
As a conservative, patriotic American, I take great pride in our country and is founding principles. I have traveled the world and very culturally knowledgeable. I know we have our issues and our disasters in the international arena, but I still believe in our ideals. Thus, I believe, we have to take a stand and stand by what we believe in and espouse to others. Like host said and I think Roachboy alluded to in the other thread, we have to be better than this. We have to rise above what I believe to be a barbaric act (death penalty) as punishment.If we want to hold other countries accountable to things like human rights, then we should demonstrate it ourselves and set the bar. In the same way that we don't tolerate torture etc, the death penalty should also be a thing of the past and of liberal socialist states.

3. Death Penalty doesn't work
I don't get the sense that the death penalty is a successful deterrent. Countries that have a high rate of death penalty such as China and Saudi Arabia, still have those crimes occurring. I mean, in China, they execute their corrupt officials and white collar criminals. Could you imagine that here (in the US)? Think the criminals in DC and boardrooms would continue their corrupt ways, *chuckle*? But to me the biggest point is, despite the death penalty, murder and rapes still occur.

I'm sorry, but I will channel DK here and suggest that having a well armed citizenry (lawful) serves as the best form of criminal deterrence in my opinion.
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:25 PM   #128 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jorgelito
I'm sorry, but I will channel DK here and suggest that having a well armed citizenry (lawful) serves as the best form of criminal deterrence in my opinion.
THIS JUST IN: Everybody not shot by John Smith Vigilantepants will be sentenced to life imprisonment in a cushy government resort.

Why again do we have government? To govern, perhaps?
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Last edited by Plan9; 11-28-2007 at 06:29 PM..
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:34 PM   #129 (permalink)
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Funny, here I thought the best forms of criminal deterrence were access to social programs and the elimination of poverty.
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Old 11-28-2007, 07:55 PM   #130 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
Funny, here I thought the best forms of criminal deterrence were access to social programs and the elimination of poverty.
Yes it is funny you think that.

Anyways, my stance on the death penalty is that once you have taken an innocent life you have forfeited yours. Its not about a deterrent, we don't execute frequently enough for that. Its not about rehabilitation, I don't care if they are now sorry and can convince some social worker they are fit for society. Its about punishment and vengeance and justice for those who knew the victim.
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Last edited by Ustwo; 11-28-2007 at 08:04 PM..
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Old 11-28-2007, 08:21 PM   #131 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Yes it is funny you think that.

Anyways, my stance on the death penalty is that once you have taken an innocent life you have forfeited yours. Its not about a deterrent, we don't execute frequently enough for that. Its not about rehabilitation, I don't care if they are now sorry and can convince some social worker they are fit for society. Its about punishment and vengeance and justice for those who knew the victim.
Punishment? And how would one be punished by death?
Vengeance? You've got that right.
Justice for the victims? As I've said, the victims don't feel better after the execution. In fact, often times they feel worse. That's why vengeance is traditionally frowned upon: it's hollow for people of conscience. You commit the act of vengeance and... now you feel even worse.

Is your wish for vengeance really worth making the victims feel even worse? Haven't they been through enough?
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Old 11-28-2007, 08:44 PM   #132 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Punishment? And how would one be punished by death?
Oh I dunno, something about it seems sort of harsh to me.

Quote:
Vengeance? You've got that right.

Quote:
Justice for the victims? As I've said, the victims don't feel better after the execution. In fact, often times they feel worse. That's why vengeance is traditionally frowned upon: it's hollow for people of conscience. You commit the act of vengeance and... now you feel even worse.
You rape and murder my wife, I'm not going to feel worse, sorry will, it doesn't work that way. Bunch of psychobabble there will, at least as it would pertain to me. I have to wonder why so many family members witness the executions, maybe just to feel bad eh?

Lets take a brief look at those who witnessed the execution of Timothy McVey...

Quote:

QUESTION: Could you describe the emotions in the room when he was pronounced dead?

HOWELL: Do what, sir?

QUESTION: Could you describe the emotions in your room when he was pronounced dead?

HOWELL: Well, I can tell you what my emotions were. I won't speak on behalf of the rest of them because they don't want me to. My emotions was it was just a big relief, just a big sigh come over my body and it just felt like, it felt real good, sir.

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: Could the rest of you speak to that?

HOWELL: Do what?

QUESTION: Could the rest of you -- could you...

SCOTT: We were happy.

ASHFORD: I'm elated.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../11/se.08.html

Whats hilarious is you can tell that they want them to say something bad about the execution.
Quote:

QUESTION: Please, sir, this is for French television. Except in the United States, the whole world is watching you and outside the United States, people are horrified by this execution. What do you want to say to the outside world?

SCOTT: The same way it was April 19th, 1995 when you looked at the TVs and saw what happened to the Alfred P. Murrah Building. It probably feels the same way.

QUESTION: But do you feel better today?

SCOTT: About that much, because we can't bring back the lives that were lost. I mean other than that, one life for 168.

QUESTION: Did it change your way of thinking about the death penalty?

SCOTT: No, it didn't.

QUESTION: You said you felt this great big relief and it was changing in the way you felt inside. Elaborate a bit on that for me. Was your daughter in there with you?

HOWELL: My daughter, along with my whole family, a lot of the other 30 or 40 people that I knew personally that got killed in the bombing, I was thinking about all those people and I kind of said a prayer to them and told them it's over with. And that's when the relief came to me, yes.
So sorry Willy I don't buy that pyschobabble.

Quote:
Is your wish for vengeance really worth making the victims feel even worse? Haven't they been through enough?
Oh so now being against the death penalty is for the victims eh? Give me a break, ask Mr. Howell there if he wants you to protect him from it.
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Old 11-28-2007, 08:46 PM   #133 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Yes it is funny you think that.
I never pegged you as an essentialist....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Anyways, my stance on the death penalty is that once you have taken an innocent life you have forfeited yours. Its not about a deterrent, we don't execute frequently enough for that. Its not about rehabilitation, I don't care if they are now sorry and can convince some social worker they are fit for society. Its about punishment and vengeance and justice for those who knew the victim.
....nor one whose values run parallel to the Old Testament and the Qur'an--though, I will point out that the latter takes a slightly more compassionate stance than you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Lets take a brief look at those who witnessed the execution of Timothy McVey...
How about another?

Quote:
These men and women were displaying many of the reactions usually associated with acute stress. They had difficulty managing the emotions that the execution aroused. More than half of our sample said they felt distant from their own emotions, a third reported that they felt "confused and disoriented," 60 percent were "estranged or detached from other people," and more than half said they tried to "avoid thoughts or feelings about the execution." One-third reported feeling "despair or hopelessness," and 20 percent felt "uncontrollable and excessive grief." I happened to speak to the wife of one of them some six months later. When I asked how her husband was doing, she replied: "He is a basket case. If he ever covers another execution, we're getting a divorce."
Quote:
One family member of a victim of the Oklahoma City bombing put it best when she snapped at a reporter: "The only 'closure' I'm ever going to have is when they close the lid on my coffin."
After reading the article, I'm even more convinced that not much good can come out of witnessing an execution. And remember that there are two sides to the show. This can't be healthy for anyone.
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Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 11-28-2007 at 09:07 PM..
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:16 PM   #134 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
I never pegged you as an essentialist....

....nor one whose values run parallel to the Old Testament and the Qur'an--though, I will point out that the latter takes a slightly more compassionate stance than you do.

How about another?

After reading the article, I'm even more convinced that not much good can come out of witnessing an execution. And remember that there are two sides to the show. This can't be healthy for anyone.
Shocking that a site dedicated to abolishing the death penalty would have anti-death penalty articles, I'll take my raw news feed of the witnesses instead, no time for manipulation in those.

Perhaps which makes this topic somewhat comical to me is the thread in sexuality about male rape. How many men there stated they would kill their rapist. Apparently sticking a dick in another mans ass is grounds for death yet not the murder of innocents.

Edit: Oh and it was the reporters they surveyed? Dear jebus.......those poor reporters.

Edit:Edit QUIT EDITING YOUR POST AS I RESPOND YOU HOSER. You neglected in your quote to point out it was the REPORTERS who had a hard time, not the victims families.
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Last edited by Ustwo; 11-28-2007 at 09:19 PM..
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:18 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Oh I dunno, something about it seems sort of harsh to me.
The punishment is the time before death. The death itself really isn't anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
You rape and murder my wife, I'm not going to feel worse, sorry will, it doesn't work that way. Bunch of psychobabble there will, at least as it would pertain to me. I have to wonder why so many family members witness the executions, maybe just to feel bad eh?
Psychobabble isn't a word that I recognize. Kinda like when people call police officers "pigs". You'll have to use something else if people are going to understand what you're communicating.

The people witness the deaths now being aware of what's to come, considering that having a looking glass into the future really is quite rare and all. The nice thing about being educated on a subject is that when I say something I know and that I've had extensive training with and someone without the benefit of that training simply says "Nope, not true," it just tells me that I was very fortunate to have that education. The reality, based on studies and precedence, is that most of the family and friends of victims in a case in which the accused is executed tend to have higher and more severe depression after the execution. Odds are if, in some bizarro alternate universe, I were to rape and kill your wife, be arrested and found guilty, and was sentenced to death, you'd end up worse off from a psychological standpoint after my execution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Lets take a brief look at those who witnessed the execution of Timothy McVey...

Whats hilarious is you can tell that they want them to say something bad about the execution.

So sorry Willy I don't buy that pyschobabble.

Oh so now being against the death penalty is for the victims eh? Give me a break, ask Mr. Howell there if he wants you to protect him from it.
I'm sure you'll notice that this interview was very soon after the execution. The day after, in fact. Had you been properly instructed and educated, you'd understand that depression rarely sets in after less than 24 hours. As a matter of fact, it can take months. So all that you've done here is demonstrated a state of mind called shock. Statistically speaking, Mr. Howell probably did go through some sort of serious depression some time after this interview. It's possible he didn't, just like it's possible that I can flip a coin and get heads a few dozen times in a row, but realistically speaking it's not unreasonable to guess.
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:20 PM   #136 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel

I'm sure you'll notice that this interview was very soon after the execution. The day after, in fact. Had you been properly instructed and educated, you'd understand that depression rarely sets in after less than 24 hours. As a matter of fact, it can take months. So all that you've done here is demonstrated a state of mind called shock. Statistically speaking, Mr. Howell probably did go through some sort of serious depression some time after this interview. It's possible he didn't, just like it's possible that I can flip a coin and get heads a few dozen times in a row, but realistically speaking it's not unreasonable to guess.
I'm sure he did, really I'm sure, because you said so.
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:29 PM   #137 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ustwo
I'm sure he did, really I'm sure, because you said so.
It's because I have the first clue about how it works and because it happens to most everyone. Do you have anything to back up your claim beyond how you'd imagine things might be in a hypothetical situation in which I (a pacifist, bleeding heart liberal, anti-death penalty, anti war flower child) rape and kill your wife? Is that the entire foundation of your argument? "I think I might react this way, you know, cause I'd be all pissed and shit".
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:12 PM   #138 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
It's because I have the first clue about how it works and because it happens to most everyone. Do you have anything to back up your claim beyond how you'd imagine things might be in a hypothetical situation in which I (a pacifist, bleeding heart liberal, anti-death penalty, anti war flower child) rape and kill your wife? Is that the entire foundation of your argument? "I think I might react this way, you know, cause I'd be all pissed and shit".
I'm sorry will you do have an agenda here. You are looking for a secondary reason as its not your primary reason for opposing the death penalty.

Its witnessing an execution traumatic? Sure, but so what. You are trying to claim you oppose it for the victims which is just bullshit, I'll let them answer not some young psychologist who is fundamentally opposed to the entire concept.

So sure they were happy about it after, but we need to wait months and months and THEN see they were depressed they were thinking about their loved one and the execution, see its traumatic on them! I mean who would have thought that the murder of a loved one might come back to haunt someone even after an execution!

And yes I'm sure at times it does bring up old wounds, after all it takes so fucking long to execute someone. Perhaps speeding it up such as with McVey will help that part out too.

I have an idea will, lets let the next of kin decide and render your argument moot. Oh wait I forget, as a liberal, people don't know whats good for them and you need to get the government to decide for them, my bad
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Last edited by Ustwo; 11-28-2007 at 10:28 PM.. Reason: comma
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:28 PM   #139 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
I'm sorry will you do have an agenda here. You are looking for a secondary reason as its not your primary reason for opposing the death penalty.

Its witnessing an execution traumatic? Sure, but so what. You are trying to claim you oppose it for the victims which is just bullshit, I'll let them answer not some young psychologist who is fundamentally opposed to the entire concept.
So when someone gives evidence supporting their position, that automatically means you ignore the evidence?

Victim's welfare is one of many reasons I oppose the death penalty. I also oppose it because of it's inability to deter, the inability of the justice system to actually find guilty people guilty and innocent people innocent, the horrible methods by which we kill, the amount of time someone spends on death row, the idea that the state can just up and kill people, the fact that it has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with vengeance... the list goes on. The welfare of the victims is part of a much larger case, but you brought it up so I figured I'd address it. Primary? I dunno. It's there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
So sure they were happy about it after, but we need to wait months and months and THEN see they were depressed they were thinking about their loved one and the execution, see its traumatic on them! I mean who would have thought that the murder of a loved one might come back to haunt someone even after an execution!
Again, you're talking about something you have absolutely no experience with or education for. The depression from the death is compounded by the execution, not alleviated by it as you would have people (including yourself) think. People who don't go through the experience of having the guilty or supposedly guilty party put to death don't have that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
I have an idea will, lets let the next of kin decide and render your argument moot. Oh wait I forget, as a liberal people don't know whats good for them and you need to get the government to do decide for them, my bad
Why are you so afraid of the learned and trained professionals who know exactly what's going on? I'll tell you what, let's compromise and have a licensed therapist speak to the next of kin to the victim who was killed by someone who was eventually put to death. Then we can have the therapist tell us how the death of the convicted criminal was wonderful for them, in the short term (months) and the long term (years).
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:36 AM   #140 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin
Why again do we have government? To govern, perhaps?
no, not to govern. That is such a huge misconception that is taken entirely at face value now so as to make me sick. I did not elect a king, monarch, baron, or warlord. I elected someone to protect my rights, which is what governments under this countrys constitution were created for, to protect our rights. nothing else, nothing more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Psychobabble isn't a word that I recognize. Kinda like when people call police officers "pigs". You'll have to use something else if people are going to understand what you're communicating.
um, how about 'non-sensical ramblings of strung together words that are related to psychiatric and psychological fields of medicine, which are designed to either intimidate or denigrate another person in to feeling that they aren't educated enough to understand what the person is really saying is bullshit'?
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Last edited by dksuddeth; 11-29-2007 at 02:40 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:45 AM   #141 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dksuddeth
no, not to govern. That is such a huge misconception that is taken entirely at face value now so as to make me sick. I did not elect a king, monarch, baron, or warlord. I elected someone to protect my rights, which is what governments under this countrys constitution were created for, to protect our rights. nothing else, nothing more.
*gameshow buzzer* Sorry, you'll have to submit your answer in the form of something that isn't akin to wishing on shooting stars or really hoping that unicorns exist because you want to ride one down a rainbow some day. The only thing that should make you sick here is that our fine republic-based society has developed into this bipartisan bullshitfest that means minimal progress for those who actually need it and that Botox'd stuffed shirts pretty much dictate / regulate just about every important (and some not) part of our lives from fuel prices for your oversized SUV to how much you pay to kill yourself with booze and alcohol to if you can still possess a privately civilian firearm (those "brutal tools from a by-gone age").

Middle school civics suggests that governments maintain order, establish standards, host civil services, and protect rights. Other stuff too, I'd imagine... the national debt has to be rocking into a squillion digits as I write this so there must be a few other things somewhere out there.

The thing that makes me sick? People who still think this country is "by the people, for the people" while crapping on their own Constitution. Not suggesting that you are... but let's get real about the America-Fuck-Yeah complex.

When was the last time someone you voted for actually did something for you and did it involve the chess club in high school?
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Old 11-29-2007, 04:36 AM   #142 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Oh and it was the reporters they surveyed? Dear jebus.......those poor reporters.
1) These are excerpts; it's everyone's responsibility to read the article, 2) the article was published in the Washington Post, 3) reporters are human, so are victims. I think they share the similar physiology and psychology.... I'm not sure. I'll try to dig up some articles on that. 4) Did you read the article? 5) Would you comment on some of the key points? 6) Or would you rather continue paring everything down to fragments of meaning so they continue to support your view? 7) Do you know how to be comprehensive?
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Old 11-30-2007, 08:44 PM   #143 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I also oppose it because of it's inability to deter,
Im not saying I disagree with you, Im just wondering if you could steer me in the write direction of statisitics that gave you this information.

Thanks
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Old 11-30-2007, 08:47 PM   #144 (permalink)
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http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=167
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:31 AM   #145 (permalink)
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Interesting information, according to the information not only is the death penalty not a deterent- the murder rate is lower in states without capital punishment. (for anyone interested)
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:42 AM   #146 (permalink)
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Or it could serve as notice that criminals won't kill their victims to remove witnesses to their crimes because a death sentence is no longer feared. Notice that it does nothing to deter crime, it only serves as providing no incentive to kill witnesses. Some people are ok with this, a high crime rate but less murders, still with no way to deter crime.
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:43 AM   #147 (permalink)
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Would this mean that states holding onto the death penalty are those with deeper social problems? Is it worth noting that besides the U.S., those who still carry out the death penalty are (for the most part) most of Asia, the Middle East, and Africa?
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:54 AM   #148 (permalink)
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Deterrence doesn't work. Prevention does. It is the one and only solution to crime.
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Old 12-01-2007, 11:40 AM   #149 (permalink)
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Said deterrence would work a lot better if death row wasn't 15 years of Constitution-raping ritualistic appeals.

That and skull poles outside the White House.

...

Capital punishment needs to be revised to be effective.

We can't lock up the entire planet.
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Old 12-01-2007, 11:44 AM   #150 (permalink)
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The idea isn't to lock everyone up, it's to prevent crime in the first place. Imagine almost empty prisons, no death row, and very low crime rates. Not a bad place, eh?
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Old 12-01-2007, 11:45 AM   #151 (permalink)
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Preventing crime is preventing human nature. Our existence is a story of conflict over time. The variables may change, but the equation is the same.

...

We're so civilized in our stability. I like how the riots during Katrina proved it.

Somebody... somewhere... has to hold a big stick.

The question is: Who do you want holding said stick?
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Old 12-01-2007, 12:07 PM   #152 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Crompsin
We're so civilized in our stability. I like how the riots during Katrina proved it.
Stability?
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Old 12-01-2007, 12:57 PM   #153 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin
Preventing crime is preventing human nature. Our existence is a story of conflict over time. The variables may change, but the equation is the same.
How many times have you committed premeditated and unprovoked murder? Never? So does that mean you can actually behave in a way that's contrary to "human nature", or does that mean that killing someone isn't human nature?
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:16 PM   #154 (permalink)
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@ Willravel:
While I find Crompsin's statement far fetched, when taken down a notch it has truth. Can you honestly say that you haven't contemplated murdering someone at some point in your life? If you haven't... wow...

The potential for heinous crimes is always there as at some point the thoughts of heinous crimes will appear. The difference always is what is innate to us (how the brain is wired), and what was imprinted to us (experiences that shaped our thinking). You being a psych major know that one is intricately connected to the other, however you cannot argue with me that sometimes there is just something wrong with one's brain that lets these heinous thoughts become actions.

The questions is: how do we work at that level to prevent crime? Describe other levels of crime prevention? More cops? More awareness? What?

Again, I am against the death penalty. However, what are countries with the death penalty (and have very high murder rates, like the USA) doing wrong compared to countries without the death penalty?

EDITS: let me amend this thought. We are arguing whether death penalty works as a deterrent. What other methods of deterrence are their? Do we have more cops? Institute some kind of social awareness? Bring in the Salvation Army? What? Countries with the death penalty have it because they feel that there is nothing left for them to try to stop the murder rate. What are these countries with the death penalty not trying?

CLARIFICATION: How many people have honestly not wanted the premature death of another person? Whether it was imagined at one's own hand or by that of a bus? In your mind you still wanted that person dead; part of being human. The potential to follow through such acts is based on then life experiences and the innate and uncontrollable wiring of one's brain. If someone has honestly never once thought, "I wish that person was dead," ... give that someone a medal.
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:27 PM   #155 (permalink)
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There is a difference between: 1) we have the desire and capacity to commit murder as a part of our nature, and 2) we have the capacity to commit murder, and, under certain conditions, we do commit such an act.


A man who goes through his entire life without wanting to murder (or actually murdering) another is not denying his nature. What has been accomplished is that he has left out in his life certain human experiences that he deemed unsavoury, non-essential, or a combination thereof.

EDIT: The death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent because of this: Few people avoid the act of murder out of fear of state-sanctioned executions. They avoid it simply because they don't want to get caught at all. They avoid it because of the danger involved, or, perhaps, because of the inconvenience of having to "lay low" for a while.

So why do people murder, then, if they know there are penalties or inconveniences? I doubt these factors play much a role when the decision is made. I'm sure murderers hope for the best in their actions. "I won't get caught; I'll leave no witnesses." But, realistically, I'm sure many acts of murder involve lapses in thought. Deterrents are useless when they don't factor in at all. Fear, anger, madness. That the idea of death row doesn't come into mind wouldn't surprise me.
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Old 12-01-2007, 09:28 PM   #156 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Elphaba
For many reasons, several given in this topic, I have come to believe that the US should abolish the death penalty again. One reason that has not been given, is that the US is the only "industrialized" nation to continue the practice.
I am curious where you got your information from? Do you not consider China or the Russian Federation as an "industrialized" nation? Both of these countries support and use the death penalty. Also, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, has anyone considered that in those contries as well, their crime rate is lower than in the U.S. BECAUSE their death penaties are actually LESS strict than here in the U.S.?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Tzu
Would anyone here refuse to serve a jury duty if they knew the guilty verdict would result in capitol punishment?
Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
It wouldn't lead to capital punishment if I were on the jury. I'd actively prevent it.

I'd tell him I do support the death penalty and of course be referring to the death penalty for the lamb I'd eaten the night before. He'd need to be ridiculously specific in order to get a straight answer out of me.
Will, while I support your rights to oppose the death penalty, I would prefer that you used the media, and public voice to fight against it, than try to, in my opinion, sneak in the back door.


Also, earlier in this thread it was mentioned I believe that Texas has the highest criminal population, as well as the highest execution rate than any other state.... Um.... HELLO! Texas has the largest POPULATION as well...I think that MIGHT have something to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Tzu
Interesting information, according to the information not only is the death penalty not a deterent- the murder rate is lower in states without capital punishment.
Interesting article, however I am curious how the individual states break down based on poulation DENSITY as well as overall population. (This leading to the thought of is the murder rate higher in relation to the DENSITY of the population, compared to the overall population fo the individual states) Also, I do not see that there is any PROOF that the death penalty is not a deterent. This page is a factual breakdown of the numbers. Only by interviewing each and every criminal that commited a murder could one TRULY find out if that states death penalty, or lack therof had any input in their decision. Remember that a large number of murders are "crimes of passion" where there was no premeditation, or opportunity to CONSIDER the ramifications of their actions. I find that this article, while informative, does not properly calculate the true reasons behind "do i commit murder or not based on this state's capital punishment laws?"
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:33 PM   #157 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Deltona Couple
Also, earlier in this thread it was mentioned I believe that Texas has the highest criminal population, as well as the highest execution rate than any other state.... Um.... HELLO! Texas has the largest POPULATION as well...I think that MIGHT have something to do with it.
The numbers in Texas are also higher when you consider the rate expressed as a percentage or as per 100,000 people, which is a fairer comparison. The real population number is highest likely because of the total population of Texas, but even so, the rate of incarceration and execution is disproportionate as compared to most other states.
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Old 12-01-2007, 11:05 PM   #158 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltona Couple
Will, while I support your rights to oppose the death penalty, I would prefer that you used the media, and public voice to fight against it, than try to, in my opinion, sneak in the back door.
Well look at it this way: should there be only people who support the death penalty on juries where the death penalty may be an option? Does that seem fair?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltona Couple
Also, earlier in this thread it was mentioned I believe that Texas has the highest criminal population, as well as the highest execution rate than any other state.... Um.... HELLO! Texas has the largest POPULATION as well...I think that MIGHT have something to do with it.
Texas does not have the largest population. We do here in California. 22m in Tex, and 36m in Cal.
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Old 12-02-2007, 03:41 AM   #159 (permalink)
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@ Baraka_Buru:
I will clarify so that there is no case 1 and 2. How many people have honestly not wanted the premature death of another person? Whether it was imagined at one's own hand or by that of a bus? In your mind you still wanted that person dead; part of being human. The potential to follow through such acts is based on then life experiences and innate uncontrolled wiring of one's brain. If someone has honestly never once thought, "I wish that person was dead," ... give that someone a medal.

Also, It is not a fair compromise to use numbers based on per 100,000 people, because we'd be assuming that there is a linear correlation between criminal population and population density. I have no numbers and do not know where to begin to back up this analogy. Look at a concert: if there are few people, there there is a less chance of a mosh happening. Many people, mosh pit. When adding more people, do you think that a proportionate amount of people are not going to be moshing? For instance, every 4 people you send into a moshing crowd, will 2 always not participate in the fight? Remember more people more and more likely chance to start bumping around. It is comparable to a mob mentality, in this example. Due note, I am not suggesting that a high murder rate in a region is self-propagating.

Again, I am all for those other ways to deter and prevent murders, WILL! [kidding, but any reading material on the subject would nice. even sits on the back of the pot reading material]
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Old 12-03-2007, 06:37 AM   #160 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by willravel
Well look at it this way: should there be only people who support the death penalty on juries where the death penalty may be an option? Does that seem fair?

Texas does not have the largest population. We do here in California. 22m in Tex, and 36m in Cal.

On statement 1: I am NOT in any way suggesting that. but by having someone deceive the court knowingly, whether directly or indirectly makes me concerned. Of course I guess with the imperfect system we have already there isn't that much of a difference.

On statement 2: Sorry, I forgot that California has a larger population.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
The numbers in Texas are also higher when you consider the rate expressed as a percentage or as per 100,000 people, which is a fairer comparison. The real population number is highest likely because of the total population of Texas, but even so, the rate of incarceration and execution is disproportionate as compared to most other states.
If the numbers are as you say, why does the website not show this? I would like to see your research that proves this data.
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