11-28-2007, 05:34 AM | #81 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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11-28-2007, 06:13 AM | #82 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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So, no, I don't agree with hanging Saddam. Justice must be applied equally to all - from gangsters to domestic murderers to those guilty of war crimes.
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Si vis pacem parabellum. |
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11-28-2007, 06:40 AM | #83 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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We can join the rest of the free world I suppose and abolish the death penalty. But again...justice. dictionary.com has this as the 5th meaning and the one that applies here... 5. the administering of deserved punishment or reward. So what is the deserved punishment for murder? For 10 murders? For a 100? For a million? For some of you, apparently its life in prison. Now I can't say that life in prison would be a happy time, but how many of you will be committing suicide rather than face a life in prison? Not to many. Where there is life, there is hope. Maybe I could escape, maybe a bunch of hippie types get on the state supreme court and change the life without parole law with their typical judicial activism, maybe I finally work on the writing I've been putting off for 10 years. But justice? No, my victims, they are gone, dead, no life, but me, I'd have hope, and in my view, an undeserved hope. You can oppose the death penalty based on human error, I can respect that, but don't talk about justice while doing so.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-28-2007, 07:17 AM | #84 (permalink) | ||
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
Location: In the dust of the archives
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Look. If your wife, or girlfriend, disappears, or turns up dead, guess who they're going to focus on. All investigation will be conducted to gain a conviction of the most likely suspect. You. There will be little, if any, effort expended to ascertain what really happened. Evidence that is contradictory to the prefered theory will be overlooked and ignored. The prosecutor wants a quick win, to add to his resume when it comes time to run for State Attorney General. The judge wants to demonstrate how tough he is on crime when it comes time for re-election. Death is a pretty high price to pay, just to be a political pawn. Are there people out there who deserve to be executed? Oh, you bet your ass there are. But, thier lives are not worth the price of a single innocent person being put to death. Quote:
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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt. Last edited by Bill O'Rights; 11-28-2007 at 07:20 AM.. |
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11-28-2007, 07:28 AM | #85 (permalink) | |
Young Crumudgeon
Location: Canada
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Otherwise, my opinion has been well represented by Bill O'Rights, roachboy et al.
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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame |
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11-28-2007, 07:37 AM | #86 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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A deserved punishment for murder is one that restores at least some semblance of harmony to society. Life imprisonment removes guilty parties from free society for an extended period of time. Killing them causes more discord.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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11-28-2007, 07:39 AM | #87 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Having said all that, Iraq is effectively a third world country these days and it is not surprising they wish to maintain a death penalty and a rather dodgy court system, nor that other nearby nations also cut hands off thieves and whip women who go about with their faces uncovered.
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Si vis pacem parabellum. |
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11-28-2007, 07:57 AM | #88 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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I ask you this, because so far no one else is answering. Hypothetically someones guilt was 100% in a horrible murder. Why do you feel the death penalty is not appropriate?
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-28-2007, 08:14 AM | #89 (permalink) | ||
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
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11-28-2007, 08:16 AM | #90 (permalink) |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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I think I've stated my opposition quite clearly more than once.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
11-28-2007, 08:19 AM | #91 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-28-2007, 08:24 AM | #92 (permalink) | ||
I Confess a Shiver
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I like how supporting the death penalty questions my patriotism, too. ... We're talking about the death penalty for heinous crimes here, right? I get the feeling a lot of people are forgetting that aspect. Death Penalty Criteria (3rd grade edition): A: A particularly brutal crime was committed (murder, rape). B: There is evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant committed the crime. C: Society believes that this individual is a threat to lawful citizens. D: The jury feels that the crime warrants the death penalty. E: Automatic appeal covers any legal issues are ironed out (in theory). This, of course, is in the best of all possible worlds. Last edited by Plan9; 11-28-2007 at 08:31 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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11-28-2007, 08:27 AM | #93 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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11-28-2007, 08:35 AM | #94 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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11-28-2007, 08:36 AM | #95 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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11-28-2007, 08:40 AM | #96 (permalink) | |
I Confess a Shiver
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Some: "No, no, no! Death penalty is all bad and never works and makes baby Jesus cry!" |
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11-28-2007, 08:49 AM | #97 (permalink) | ||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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By that logic if your imprisonment can cause enough social unrest than by default it is best you are let free. No I see no justice in this logic. Quote:
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 11-28-2007 at 08:51 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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11-28-2007, 09:27 AM | #98 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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It conforms with my general world view that we (Western societies at any rate) are evolved cultures and we view the taking of a life as little more than revenge and not either an effective deterrant nor a way to improve society as a whole. It is the action, the concept, of state-sanctioned murder that offends me and, I think, many others, not the virtues or lack thereof of the convicted party nor of the individual crime. Do I think the system we have in Canada is perfect? Of course not. I'd like to see hard-labour introduced. But we've also had Donald Marshall, Steve Truscott, and dozens of others - cases of men convicted of crimes they did not commit and who would be dead in Texas or Florida. So, for both the concept of state-sanctioned taking of life and the fact that even one innocent death is too much, I do not support the death penalty. I think of note, when it comes to the nations that support the death penalty, we often equate the US to Iraq or Sudan or some third world hell hole, but perhaps it is also due to the impersonal aspect of crimes in the US due to the A) the amount of crime, and B) the size of the population. Many of the nations with the largest populations support the death penalty and people look upon the death of "just another criminal" a bit more remotely and with detachment.
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Si vis pacem parabellum. Last edited by highthief; 11-28-2007 at 09:55 AM.. |
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11-28-2007, 09:31 AM | #99 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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11-28-2007, 09:39 AM | #100 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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11-28-2007, 09:40 AM | #101 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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And then if it happens you can't manipulate the jury because you happen to not be the smartest guy there for once? You possess an amazing degree of certainty in your statements.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-28-2007, 10:02 AM | #102 (permalink) |
has a plan
Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere
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Despite the rage I feel for murders and rapists living in prison eating three hots and sleeping on a cot and getting better health care than my own family only because it would be cruel and unusual to let them suffer illness in prison... I don't support the death penalty. The system isn't perfect, and it is not equal. Men who can afford their own private justice seem to be able to do whatever they feel like doing. That does not make them any less guilty or any less deserving of the punishment fit for them... What we call punishments are more like consequences of actions. The death penalty is a finality---if it cannot be distributed evenly, then it shouldn't be distributed at all, because we can't make up for that punishment.
Even if guilt was 100% possible, I still would not let be them executed: make them work. Somehow scrounge some sort of usefulness out of them for society. Also, something has to be done about that health care system. My father, whom worked 16 hours a day at the same job on a fixed salary for 25 years, has a bum ticker. He has never done a damn thing wrong in his life... and he can't get that kind of health care prisoners receive? Shit, prisoners can receive state-paid hormone treatments... but my pops can't see a decent doctor for his heart? /rant
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Last edited by Hain; 11-28-2007 at 10:07 AM.. |
11-28-2007, 10:08 AM | #103 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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"Would you support the death penalty under any circumstance?" "By support, do you mean, 'Will I ever sentence someone to death'?" "Well no, I can't actually ask that." Will wins. |
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11-28-2007, 10:16 AM | #104 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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will doesn't win.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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11-28-2007, 10:24 AM | #105 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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11-28-2007, 10:24 AM | #106 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Just because you personally don't see discord, it doesn't mean it isn't there.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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11-28-2007, 11:48 AM | #107 (permalink) | |
Winter is Coming
Location: The North
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Important safety tip: You're a juror. You have a specific and prescribed role in the judicial system. If you want to do anything else, get a JD or get elected and stop mucking around with the process in furtherance of your own personal crusade. Obviously the result isn't as extreme, but from a legal perspective it's no different than vigilantism-you're eliminating the legal process and replacing it with your own beliefs. Last edited by Frosstbyte; 11-28-2007 at 11:52 AM.. |
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11-28-2007, 12:13 PM | #109 (permalink) |
has a plan
Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere
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@ Frosstbyte:
willravel did just say, "You can't possibly think that was a serious answer. Jesus," and proceeded to mock the system where the lawyer avoids outright saying, "Yes you will be a juror for a trial where your determination can sentence someone to death." I thought that is what he said but I never was good at making inferences---seriously I am not.
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11-28-2007, 12:34 PM | #110 (permalink) | ||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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BTW, "vigilantism"? If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that was actually perfectly legal. Google "jury nullification". The google "I don't know anything about the legal system". |
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11-28-2007, 01:09 PM | #111 (permalink) | |
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
Location: In the dust of the archives
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A jury of my peers? Exactly.
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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt. |
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11-28-2007, 01:25 PM | #112 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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11-28-2007, 01:33 PM | #113 (permalink) |
Winter is Coming
Location: The North
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I know very well what jury nullification is, thanks, but you misrepresenting your beliefs in order to get on a jury to "force" the jury to come to the resolution that you've decided BEFORE THE TRIAL is not jury nullification. That's you taking your outside thoughts and beliefs into the jury box, ignoring the attorneys and then convincing the rest of the jurors to agree with you, effectively trying to act as attorney, judge and juror which sounds remarkably like vigilantism to me.
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11-28-2007, 01:37 PM | #114 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-28-2007, 01:41 PM | #115 (permalink) | |||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Last edited by Willravel; 11-28-2007 at 01:41 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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11-28-2007, 01:42 PM | #116 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-28-2007, 01:42 PM | #117 (permalink) |
Winter is Coming
Location: The North
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Your beliefs are not illegal, but making decisions about any part of a case before you've heard the evidence or the arguments undermines the entire purpose of an adversarial legal system presented to an impartial jury of peers.
I want jurors to do their job in the case at hand and not be activists for causes in an improper venue. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about that and hope we're never on one another's juries. Last edited by Frosstbyte; 11-28-2007 at 01:45 PM.. |
11-28-2007, 01:49 PM | #118 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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11-28-2007, 01:54 PM | #119 (permalink) |
has a plan
Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere
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What decision has he made? He has no preconceived notions pertaining to the guilt of the person to be on trail. The only thing he has brought is his legal belief that there is no reason to punish by death. If the lawyer refuses to specify whether or not the case warrants the death penalty, Will has every right to refuse to answering the lawyers question. As I noted about his previous comment before: he was joking.
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11-28-2007, 02:04 PM | #120 (permalink) |
Winter is Coming
Location: The North
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As his multiple statements to the contrary evidence, while he may have been joking about that exact phraseology, he was in no way joking about the underlying principle.
As for what decision he's made, he has decided ahead of time that he would not give the death penalty no matter what the circumstances presented to him were. While that doesn't affect his impartiality in the guilty/not guilty part of the process, he has made a decision about sentencing, which is another part of the process in which we expect jury neutrality and impartiality. Where juries are allowed to make determinations of death sentences, they should be just as impartial about the sentence as they are about guilt. Going into the trial knowing that you won't give it under any circumstances makes you by definition not impartial. |
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death, penalty |
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