04-23-2007, 07:09 PM | #81 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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And the facts bear me out if you take the time to look objectively. Or post your own facts to make the case (as I asked) that Dem revenge against Reagan or GHW Bush was anything near the level of the Repub Congress "grandstanding" and "milking" of Clinton...and you can even include Dem hearings on Reagan-Iran/Contral and GHW Bush-BCCI/Iraqgate (illegal funding of arms to Iraq)...both having far more serious national policy implications that Clinton's affair. Absolutely, let the readers determine for themselves if "it" is equally balanced or tilts more one way that the other....and if anyone cares to share facts that back up their opinion, I will be happy to discuss it further in a new thread so as not to get further off track from Gonzales.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 04-23-2007 at 08:53 PM.. |
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04-24-2007, 07:52 AM | #82 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I think the "revenge" cycle is real in Washington, you seem to agree. When the Republican party was in control they abused power to embarass Democrats, you seem to agree. I agree that the worst abuse of power in my lifetime was the Clinton investigation and impeachment garbage, you seem to agree. When Democrats were in control they abused power to embarass Republicans, I guess you agree but I am not sure. And if you do agree I guess you think the Democratic Party abuses pale in comparision to abuses by Republicans-excluding the Clinton matter. And now with Democrats in control I am not sure if you think Democrats are going to showing restraint or not, but I do not and the Gonzales hearings is an example of that. Perhaps this is the key point of our disagreement. Quote:
In my opinion this Gonzales hearing is an example of what I am talking about - between this thread and the other thread on the Gonzales matter, this issue has been beat to death. Doing the same with other past issues does not interest me. I am more interested in discussing current events. I have no plans on going through the historical record to provide examples.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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04-24-2007, 08:14 AM | #83 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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You're right...I am not sure and see nothing from recent history that would suggest that Dems wont show restraint. Quote:
If this does not meet your test for oversight, what does? Are there other recent oversight hearings that you would characterize as "revenge motivated" rather than fact-finding? If not, I would ask again...if you are sure that Dems will act in such a manner, based on what?
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 04-24-2007 at 08:49 AM.. |
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04-24-2007, 09:27 AM | #84 (permalink) | |
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he selectively forgets things from a few months ago. it's not that he remembers things differently in these instances, his memory is 100% blank. i don't think he is being honest, and although you did not answer my earlier question about his honesty, i doubt you think he is being honest either. |
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04-24-2007, 10:30 AM | #85 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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It does not clearly fall into the oversight category, but it is clearly Unconstitutional and a political maneuver targeted to the black vote. The Plame testimony was political, served no purpose other than an attempt to embarass the white House. Al Gore's global warming testimony was political, served no purpose other than to give Gore a shot at the spot light. The Gonzales hearings. Or how about the Finance Committe refusing to give a hearing to Bush nominee for Deputy Comissioner post at SSA, purely political because he supports privatization. How about Pelosi's trip to Syria, purely political and only served as an attempt to embarass the White House. Quote:
At this point I am not sure what the bigger concern is - that he was not deeply involved in the firings and delegated too much, or he was deeply involved and is downplaying his role and the role of others in the White House. So far it looks like he was not deeply involved, which makes this even more pointless, in my view. Everyone knew he got the post because of his relationship with Bush and not based on competence, and now they want us to believe his competence is an issue??? I also think the standard was set after the Libby trial. People would be foolish to give specific testimony under oath if it is not spot on perfect because of the risk of perjury over issues not material to a crime. I would always qualify my answers or say I don't recall, wouldn't you.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 04-24-2007 at 10:44 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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04-24-2007, 12:19 PM | #86 (permalink) | |||||
Location: Washington DC
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Artice I, section 8This same clause has been used in the past to justify requiring DC residents to pay federal taxes (can I stop paying my fed taxes now?) and be drafted into the military (when we had a draft). The bill also adds a seat to Utah - a presumed R seat to balance a presumed D seat so how is it partisan or for a political gain rather than to give ME something approaching the same rights YOU have. I recall the Repub co-sponsor of the bill saying at one time that the reason for the bill, rather than another attempt at a Constitutional amendment (which failed in the past) is because there are many still state legislators, particularly in red states, who make it racial (like you) and equate it with a "black vote" rather than a prvilege of citizenship that should be extended to all citizens. Quote:
In the case of Plame, I think it was reasonable to give her an opportunity to refute the blatantly false charges against her spread by the right wing. In Gore's case, I would simply refer you back to the global warming hearings conducted by the Repubs. Quote:
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But you're right. They should have had a hearing, then voted him down in committee because his goal is not to protect and ensure the credible administration of SS , but to dismantle the current system. Quote:
“Before we left, we met with the State Department people and nobody told us not to go,” Hobson said, adding that none of his Republican colleagues broached the subject, either. “Nobody ever called me to say, ‘Why are you going to Syria with those people?’“The Repub attaks of Pelosi and not Hobson or the group of Repubs who went to Syria one month earlier (do you think their trip was "purely political" or just Pelosi's) is about as hypocritical and ugly partisanship as anything I have seen recently. ace...I would still ask...what is your test for reasonable and responsible oversight?
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 04-24-2007 at 12:47 PM.. |
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04-24-2007, 01:54 PM | #87 (permalink) | ||||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Second - The issue of DC statehood has been around for a long time. I see this as an attempted step in that direction. If DC had a Republican base a Democratic Congress would not have done this, again proving my point that it is less about representation and more about maintaining control. Quote:
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Like him or not Bush says what he wants or what he wants to do and does it. Others often say one thing and mean or want another thing. A perfect example is the DC issue. Democrats are not looking out for your right to vote, they are looking out for their ability to control more votes in Congress. Giving the issue thought-it is clear that one seat in DC will translate to more political power than one seat in Utah. And one House seat in DC is one step closer to two senate seats, which will be Democratic.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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04-24-2007, 02:58 PM | #88 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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ace.....I would urge you to read the testimony of Kenneth Starr (hardly a flaming liberal) and his argument for voting rights in the House based on the "Seat of Goverment Clause majestic in its scope" (link-pdf)
or Viet Dinh, conservative former US attorney, Georgtown Univ law professor and principal author of the Patriot Act - "The Authority of Congress to Enact Legislation to Provide the District of Columbia with Voting Represenation in the House of Representatives" (link-pdf) But beyond that, DC voting rights in the House is not a desire among most DC voting rights supporters for statehood or Senators. The supporters believe in the concept that the House of Rep is the "people's house" including the people of DC...and the Senate is the "states house" as envisoned in the Constution. Now we are way off track....but please, read up more on DC voting rights before you jump to conclusions and make broad generalizations. edit - my final thoughts on the central issue here, now that we've beaten it to death: On rereading many of your posts, IMO (and I am not trying to read your mind or put words in your mouth), it appears to me that actions that you dont agree with you tend to characterize as politically motivated for political gain (you use those expressions often), rather than having any altrustic motive or public policy value. I think its sad to have such a cynical attitude about goverment and politics, but I do understand what has driven people to that extreme.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 04-24-2007 at 03:57 PM.. |
04-25-2007, 02:33 PM | #89 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I expect people to do what they think is their best interest. When they do, I enjoy pointing it out to people who don't get it. The joy I get in looking, understanding and pointing out how decisions and actions are guided by that basic principle is the sad part, primarily because I waste so much time doing it (my wife hates it, so I come here for my regular fix). This is another one of my weaknesses, but at least I know what they are.
Just to be clear, I actually, don't have a cynical attitude about politics and government any more than I have a cynical attitude about wolves hunting and killing prey. It is just the nature of things.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
04-25-2007, 02:47 PM | #90 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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ace....just a word of friendly advice.
Its always wise to have a full set of facts before you "point out to people who dont get it"... "how decisions and actions (of other people you dont know) are guided." In the words of one of our most revered politicians: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
04-25-2007, 11:19 PM | #92 (permalink) | ||
Banned
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ace....even with the extreme politicization of the DOJ by the Bush admin., corrupt republican officials were still being indicted and convicted....and that is a good thing....appointees of a republican president investigating crime and indicting and prosecuting those republicans who are too blatantly corrupt and dishonest to be overlooked or benignly neglected:
democrats now in control of the house and the senate, just want to be sure that justice will continue to be pursued, and right now....they don't have that assurance....here is a description of "the problem" that I outlined in my <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpost.php?p=2234143&postcount=8">last post</a> over at the "two parties" thread. I think that I did a good job of supporting my contentions there with news articles, and what I posted there, matched nicely with this: <b>Consider that the following "testimony" from Sampson happened on March 29, 2007.....and....even after Sampson's obvious lies and contradictions about the justification for firing Carol Lam was videotaped (click on link displayed in next quote box), Gonzales told the same obvious lies, while testifying under oath, 3 weeks later: "Gonzales hedged the question, saying that Lam must have known that there was “interest” in and “concern” with her immigration performance. Members of Congress, Gonzales said, had complained about Lam’s performance. Gonzales allowed that she “may not have been told that if there is no change in policy, there will be a change,” but seemed to think that was an unimportant distinction." <a href="http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003055.php">Watch the Video</a> </b> Quote:
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04-26-2007, 07:15 AM | #93 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Or that a person can not comment on an issue unless they have 100% of the facts...(never mind). Or that I have never admitted an error and you have...(never mind). Or that your facts are better than mine... (never mind). You are trying to bait me into going into the gutter, aren't you? Its like waiving a peice of fresh red meat in front of a lion, but no, I will avoid it today. Quote:
I am not sure what you want from me. Do you want me to say that Republicans are bad and do everything for the wrong reasons, and Democrats are good and do everything for the right reasons? I can not do it, because it is not true. This issue is political, not an issue about justice.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 04-26-2007 at 07:20 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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04-26-2007, 09:25 AM | #94 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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MR. AG:
The House Judiciary Committee voted 32-6 (thats alot of Rebubs voting "aye") to authorize give immunity to Monica Goodling, your primarily liaison to the White House. If the Committee decides to move forward with the immunity offer, she will be compelled to testify (with no 5th amendment claim) or face contempt charges. Since she was apparently involved in crucial discussions over a two-year period with senior White House aides and would potentially be a key witness to any possible undue or improper interference from the WH..... Do you want to take one more crack at refreshing your memory and/or encouraging the WH to be more responsive to requests for key documents that appear to be "missing or lost"?
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 04-26-2007 at 09:47 AM.. |
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gonzales, grill |
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