To the Folks Who Post that They Don't Post Here, Anymore..... - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

mixedmedia · 03-13-2007, 08:07 AM

Well, if neither the left nor the right is really dealing with seemingly intractable problems like classism and racism in America, and I believe this is true, then what purpose does it serve to align yourself with one of them? This happens to be an issue that I care very much about. Yet, I consider myself to be politically moderate. For me, being moderate is not so much about compromise. It's a rejection of the stalemate and assimilation, that you also seem to perceive, in American two-party politics.

roachboy · 03-13-2007, 08:51 AM

there's two questions crunched into each other in the last post i put up:

1. the particular functions of pan's mode of interaction in this place when it comes to structural problems and debate about them and
2. an outline of the type of problem in the actually existing world (whatever that means, really) that moderate-ness as processed through (1) would functionally exclude.

then a little rant got started and took on a life of its own.

anyway: i guess my position would come down to: the dominant political parties in the states both operate within ideological boxes that are geared around avoidance of structural problems.

the shared assumptions: capitalism is in itself rational. the parties differ on the extent of that rationality and on what needs to be done compensate for its shortcomings--but both believe that capitalism is in itself rational.

because capitalism is in itself rational, then it follows that the united states, which is the belly of the beast, is in itself rational. problems that arise then are adjustment issues, not functions of problems with the underlying rationality itself. so problems that arise, and which cannot be avoided (avoidance being always plan a, it seems), therefore can be addressed by tacking on some extra element that will be charged with making the necessary adjustment.

but the assumption that the socio-economic order within the united states is necessarily rational because, somehow, it cannot be otherwise a priori is a shared assumption that cuts across party divisions.

obviously, when it comes to fashioning these extra adjustment mechanisms, reps and dems diverge: the right prefers a kind of voluntarism (discourse of the will--they LOVE it), the democrats a more socially-oriented response.

when it comes to educational policy, the right favors privatization, the democrats--well, what? they default into defending the existing system because, and ONLY because, when compared with the lunacy of the conservative educational philosophy, the status quo doesnt look so bad.

but think about it. the educational system is the primary mechanism of social reproduction--what it reproduces is the class system that is in place---but the american economic order has been fundamentally transformed since the late 1970s--and there is talk about adjustments, but no adjustments--time passes, the reorganization of the american socio-economic order accelerates, affecting sector after sector---and along with that the class profile being reproduced by the american educational system and the profile of the labor pool diverge more and more. think the disappearance of the american working class. think the much graver problems that result for the poor. the ideological order within which we operate would assign everyone either a place in the "middle class" or they disappear. the ideology under which we operate is geared around denial. it is a mechanism of denial.

addressing this process would require asking certain questions: does it make sense for the united states to simply allow its internal organization to be remolded by the reorganization of capitalism? does it make sense to assume that the logic of this remolding will simply be given by capitalism itself?

it appears that the right imagines this will happen, and in this the right is operating with an understanding of the relations between registers of a particular mode of production that is so crude that it would have made even stalin blush.
how exactly are markets rational?
is social reproduction a market function?
clearly it is not--it feeds into labor pools but is not itself a function of those pools--it does not move along with the structure of labor pools, there is nothing automatic about the relation. the relation requires a degree of planning.

the right's "plan" is to surrender: privatize everything, kids. that way, when the shit hits the fan politically as a result of a defunctionalized educational system that chooses social control over social opportunity, particularly when it comes to the poor, who in conservativeland are self-evidently expendable, there will be no political consequences to be bourne. that way, the populations whose futures are maimed can choke in silence. and that, apprently, is the american way, that is the way it should be.

the democrats default into defending the status quo. the argument that the status quo is preferable to crackpot notions like school vouchers is certainly persuasive in itself (to me anyway)--but the effect of this pseudo-debate is to marginalize critiques of the system itself--there is no space for such critiques.

but the problems that are being performed by the public education system in the states are structural. they speak to the inability of the dominant ideology to provide an adequate framework for thinking about the nature, meaning and responses to conditions that are unfolding beneath your feet, within your city, in real time, all around you.

it simply seems to me that the dominant ideology in the states is about avoiding all this. and we are talking here about ONE SECTOR. there are lots of sectors. there are lots of deep problems. this globalizing capitalism thing isnt working out as the neoliberals halluncinated that it would. and this is not a process that is only fucking around the southern hemisphere: it is generating and/or excerbating many real problems in the states as well.

and there is no debate. there is no discussion. there are no adjustments. there are no options. there IS avoidance. and this primarily because the spectrum of political positions that the americans confuse with a viable range of alternatives simply doesnt allow for this kind of issue to be addressed coherently.
so i dunno.

StanT · 03-13-2007, 10:04 AM

Quote:

If you've stopped posting on this forum, but you still lurk here, if you've posted that you've stopped posting, but you still post to explain why....or, if you just post less, than you used to.......this question is for you......

....is a major reason why you are participating less, or not at all, here, because you have been challenged.....with increasing frequency, to provide support.....in other words....to back up the opinions....the statements that you've posted?

I don't mind backing up my opinions, but I have no interest in researching or composing a thesis, either. My middle of the road political opinions seem to get trampled by the extremes of both sides, both of which have canned arguments readily available.

I read the discussion here, make up my own mind, and keep my mouth shut. It isn't worth the effort.

ubertuber · 03-13-2007, 10:19 AM

Pan:

You've definitely got my respect and admiration for having the heart to fight the good fight, however small and hard-fought the gains are.

While I don't disagree with the thrust of your feelings on negativity, I think there's also a trap in single-minded focus on "solutions". When I was still in school, this mindset was frequently employed by the administration as the ultimate criticism killer. Don't like the way housing is allocated? Come up with a better method. Don't think our vendor contracts are negotiated to students' advantage? Figure out a better system. Disagree with the way teacher evaluations are handled? YOU fix it. This was so effective at shutting down unwanted feedback because the people with the ground-level view were not the ones with the resources and knowledge, to say nothing of responsibility, to solve the problems. In my year working in that administration, I got a lot of attention for telling students to come to me with problems because it was my job to fix them.

I think a certain level of this translates to what goes on at tfp - and it's a question central to who we think we are and what our space will become. So far as I know, none of us are politicians. None of us have the whole picture, the knowledge, the resources, or the responsibility to fix these problems. To insist that every post or thread without a solution packaged is nothing more than negativity is to lock us into choosing between silence and pie-in-the-sky posts.

I'm perfectly happy to learn about and discuss problems here. I know that none of us is likely to come up with anything as grand as a solution. For me, the reward is in learning to use some insight that one of you posts and think about the world around me in a clearer fashion...

host · 03-13-2007, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

there's two questions crunched into each other in the last post i put up:

1. the particular functions of pan's mode of interaction in this place when it comes to structural problems and debate about them and
2. an outline of the type of problem in the actually existing world (whatever that means, really) that moderate-ness as processed through (1) would functionally exclude.

then a little rant got started and took on a life of its own.

anyway: i guess my position would come down to: the dominant political parties in the states both operate within ideological boxes that are geared around avoidance of structural problems.

the shared assumptions: capitalism is in itself rational. the parties differ on the extent of that rationality and on what needs to be done compensate for its shortcomings--but both believe that capitalism is in itself rational.

because capitalism is in itself rational, then it follows that the united states, which is the belly of the beast, is in itself rational. problems that arise then are adjustment issues, not functions of problems with the underlying rationality itself. so problems that arise, and which cannot be avoided (avoidance being always plan a, it seems), therefore can be addressed by tacking on some extra element that will be charged with making the necessary adjustment.

but the assumption that the socio-economic order within the united states is necessarily rational because, somehow, it cannot be otherwise a priori is a shared assumption that cuts across party divisions.....

.....and there is no debate. there is no discussion. there are no adjustments. there are no options. there IS avoidance. and this primarily because the spectrum of political positions that the americans confuse with a viable range of alternatives simply doesnt allow for this kind of issue to be addressed coherently.
so i dunno.

Great post, roachboy...change will come, as it always does....via economic dislocation...I fear that we are in the early stages of a "weimar republic" scenario:

Quote:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...id=chix-sphere
A Mystical Boom
Monday, Mar. 04, 1974

Investors have concluded lately that most major currencies will lose much of their purchasing power in the months ahead. The doubts have set off a worldwide stampede to buy tangible commodities of all kinds: copper, silver, sugar, even potatoes. Most of all, the nervous are buying gold, a mystical symbol of eternal value. The price of gold rocketed up to a record $163 an ounce in London last week, almost double the quote a year ago, and up $23.50 in less than a month (see chart).

The gold rush is paradoxical for two reasons. Gold price leaps used to reflect primarily doubts about the worth of the dollar—but the dollar's price in foreign currencies has generally been climbing for the past several months. Also, the values of most major currencies are no longer formally tied to gold. But now investors are disturbed by forecasts that inflation will average close to 9% in the U.S. this year, 10% to 15% in Europe, as much as 20% in Japan. That means that paper currencies will buy steadily fewer goods and services, no matter what the price at which they can be exchanged for each other.

Now, gold is being purchased avidly by just about anyone with assets to protect: corporations, banks, Arab oil sheiks, offshore mutual funds, Germans who still remember the wallpaperization of their currency in the Weimar years, and French farmers.

and today, gold is <a href="http://www.kitco.com/">$645.00</a>, up from a recent low of April 2, 2001, when the price was <a href="http://www.kitco.com/londonfix/gold.londonfix01.html">$255.95.</a>

"Change" will come, roachboy....but only when the people "who matter", "important people", lose large amounts of money in our current "experiment" with "capitalism". In the scheme of things, education has been commoditized

Quote:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...eek+exclusives
..... With virtually no mass transit in Bangalore, Indian technology firm Infosys Technologies Ltd. spends $5 million a year on buses, minivans, and taxis to transport its 18,000 employees to and from Electronics City........

..... India's high-tech services industry has set the country's economic flywheel spinning. Growth is running at 9%-plus this year. The likes of Wal-Mart (WMT ), Vodafone (VOD ), and Citigroup (C ) are placing multibillion-dollar bets on the country, lured by its 300 million-strong middle class. ......

......and "outsourced", just like everything else. I don't think that changing the US education system matters so much. The "jobs" in the future, I fear, will be in private security and law enforcement, and figuring out how to scratch by on a subsistence living, and the economic conditions will drive us into some sort of dictatorship.....the degree of benevolence or oppressiveness is the open question......

<center><img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/1y/n/new"> 
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/1y/l/lend"> 
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/1y/n/nfi"> 

and the next one???
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/1y/c/cfc">

and after that...will it be the "big enchilada" ???
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/5y/_/_dji"></center>

Americans will only see the "unfairness" of the current economic "system", when it is "unfair" to them....when it bites them in the ass....turns them out of a job, a home, and out of their retirement savings....that will be the catalyst for an economic and education "revolution"......

roachboy · 03-13-2007, 11:35 AM

damn it.
this just won't work.
i'll try again later.

jorgelito · 03-13-2007, 12:14 PM

Gold is down to $645 from a high of $800 something not too long ago.

Up and down, up and down, round and round we go.

Nothing to see here. For every economist or expert opinion there is an equal and opposite opinion.

Que serra serra, whatever will be will be......

Host, I'm a little short on time but I will do my best to come back and complete my post. I want to give some references and stuff. I want a chance to respond to your position on the economy (RE: price of gold etc).

Thanks.

mixedmedia · 03-13-2007, 12:19 PM

I don't disagree with you, roachboy, but I don't agree with you either. I don't agree that conservative policies and social agendas are inherently evil and predicated on the exploitation of the poor. And I don't believe that the globalization experiment has had the chance to yet be deemed a failure. I do believe the world must gain some homogeneity in regards to economic opportunity and that in the process, cultural distinctions will become less so and it will cause much strife and struggle around the world. I believe that the way of life we have taken for granted in the West will (continue to) take a downturn as people in places we normally haven't given much thought to start to claim their own piece of what we used to so charmingly refer to as the "American Pie" - as if it were the bottomless dessert tray that just naturally comes along with Manifest Destiny. I don't know what to think about liberals who decry the American capitalist system and then cry when the American capitalist status quo starts to dissolve under their feet. You can't have it both ways. Yes, corporate entities are taking advantage of cheaper labor to make more money. But they are also giving jobs to people who would do just about anything to scrub toilets in a fast-food restaurant so they could have the privilege of not watching their children starve to death. Yet we liberals here in the states want to be able to sit at a nice little table outside of Starbucks with our four dollar cafe latte and bemoan how bad off we are, how horrible capitalism is and the how evil the conservatives are when the truth is that the roots of the problem are so much deeper, more daunting and more horrible than we even want to begin thinking about. I don't have a lot of patience for it.

My point is, I don't think pure liberalism (ie, socialism) is anymore of an answer than pure conservatism (ie, capitalism). I think the answer will lie somewhere in the middle. In a system that gives people both social and economic opportunity. More control over their communities and more control over their lives. From the standpoint of the world we are living in now, I think this outcome is more likely than that of the world slaveholder cum, corpo-illuminati dictatorship model and that of the world-sharing, level playing field model.

Thusly, I find myself self-identifying as a moderate. Granted, I am not the most knowledgeable person around here and I don't have a compendium of graphs and articles to base my opinion on. My ideas are based on my own observations and what I believe is a pretty well-grounded sense of pragmatism. And that's about that.

pan6467 · 03-13-2007, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubertuber

Pan:

You've definitely got my respect and admiration for having the heart to fight the good fight, however small and hard-fought the gains are.

While I don't disagree with the thrust of your feelings on negativity, I think there's also a trap in single-minded focus on "solutions". When I was still in school, this mindset was frequently employed by the administration as the ultimate criticism killer. Don't like the way housing is allocated? Come up with a better method. Don't think our vendor contracts are negotiated to students' advantage? Figure out a better system. Disagree with the way teacher evaluations are handled? YOU fix it. This was so effective at shutting down unwanted feedback because the people with the ground-level view were not the ones with the resources and knowledge, to say nothing of responsibility, to solve the problems. In my year working in that administration, I got a lot of attention for telling students to come to me with problems because it was my job to fix them.

I think a certain level of this translates to what goes on at tfp - and it's a question central to who we think we are and what our space will become. So far as I know, none of us are politicians. None of us have the whole picture, the knowledge, the resources, or the responsibility to fix these problems. To insist that every post or thread without a solution packaged is nothing more than negativity is to lock us into choosing between silence and pie-in-the-sky posts.

I'm perfectly happy to learn about and discuss problems here. I know that none of us is likely to come up with anything as grand as a solution. For me, the reward is in learning to use some insight that one of you posts and think about the world around me in a clearer fashion...

Thanks Uber............. I truly am thankful for the kind words.... and I agree, it is a double edged sword saying "find the solution." In politics it is the politician's job to fix things and keep them running smoothly, however, it is up to us the people to find the politicians who have good ideas and are willing to take chances, are willing to listen to all sides and find solutions that people may not like but can live with.

Again, if we discuss problems here and we find something that may work, we have some idea what to ask from our politicians and what to look for in them.

But if all we do is hate and ignore..... our politicians will be as negative as we are..... hence corruption, hence greed, partisan politics, etc. etc.

What have we got to lose by trying to be positive and focus positively on issues and try to find positive ways to handle them?

Nothing more than we already have lost and are losing.

==============================================================

And so it goes and Host and RB's posts are perfect examples of what I started in this thread with..... instead of debating .... RB and Host all of a sudden turn the thread into "let's blame the Right and show economic injustice".

Great, but that wasn't the point I was trying to get across in saying I am trying to stay positive and I don't post because people here seem to want to stay negative and not work on finding middle ground.

On the other hand these 2 proved my point as to why it is utterly useless to try to post anything here............ They don't like the flow they change the subject to what they want and totally disregard what was being said.

(Not just Host and RB do this.)

Hence, the elitism on this board.... you play by THEIR rules and when THEY decide the topic isn't worthy instead of starting a new thread or just saying they have nothing more to say they bog the thread down, change topic and fuck anyone who might have been interested in what was being said.

Thanks for demonstrating the answer guys, I am not trying to attack you anymore than you tried to change the subject on me. And decided what I had to say and others who may have had something to say on a topic you obviously were bored of..... wasn't worthy of your respect.

smooth · 03-13-2007, 09:54 PM

what are you talking about?
and how did you possibly read roachboy's post to "blame the Right?"
if anything, roachboy argued that CAPITALISM creates economic injustice and that NEITHER party can get past the idea that capitalism and the structural problems it brings are part of the natural order of things.

it's that kind of interpretation that makes my eyes boog out when I read your responses and wonder how you consider yourself liberal or even moderate. it seems the level of critique you offer isn't anything other than baseless, everyone hates everyone else comments and that's all there is to it according to your analysis. even if it were true, it's tedious to read it in every thread and damn near every post.

EDIT: and I had to go back and reread how we even got to here from there and I find it bizarre, to say the least, that not a few posts of roachboy's back you actually congratulated him on engaging in a discussion with you. and his posts seemed to me to be in response to your questions...so I'm confused as to why you would then turn around and use these same responses as a negative example of what you were trying to show in the beginning of this thread.

host · 03-13-2007, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

.......And so it goes and Host and RB's posts are perfect examples of what I started in this thread with..... instead of debating .... RB and Host all of a sudden turn the thread into "let's blame the Right and show economic injustice".

Great, but that wasn't the point I was trying to get across in saying I am trying to stay positive and I don't post because people here seem to want to stay negative and not work on finding middle ground.

On the other hand these 2 proved my point as to why it is utterly useless to try to post anything here............ They don't like the flow they change the subject to what they want and totally disregard what was being said.

(Not just Host and RB do this.)

Hence, the elitism on this board.... you play by THEIR rules and when THEY decide the topic isn't worthy instead of starting a new thread or just saying they have nothing more to say they bog the thread down, change topic and fuck anyone who might have been interested in what was being said.

Thanks for demonstrating the answer guys, I am not trying to attack you anymore than you tried to change the subject on me. And decided what I had to say and others who may have had something to say on a topic you obviously were bored of..... wasn't worthy of your respect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

there's two questions crunched into each other in the last post i put up:

1. the particular functions of pan's mode of interaction in this place when it comes to structural problems and debate about them and
2. an outline of the type of problem in the actually existing world (whatever that means, really) that moderate-ness as processed through (1) would functionally exclude.

then a little rant got started and took on a life of its own.

anyway: i guess my position would come down to: the dominant political parties in the states both operate within ideological boxes that are geared around avoidance of structural problems.

the shared assumptions: capitalism is in itself rational. the parties differ on the extent of that rationality and on what needs to be done compensate for its shortcomings--but both believe that capitalism is in itself rational.

click to read the rest.... click to show

because capitalism is in itself rational, then it follows that the united states, which is the belly of the beast, is in itself rational. problems that arise then are adjustment issues, not functions of problems with the underlying rationality itself. so problems that arise, and which cannot be avoided (avoidance being always plan a, it seems), therefore can be addressed by tacking on some extra element that will be charged with making the necessary adjustment.

but the assumption that the socio-economic order within the united states is necessarily rational because, somehow, it cannot be otherwise a priori is a shared assumption that cuts across party divisions.

obviously, when it comes to fashioning these extra adjustment mechanisms, reps and dems diverge: the right prefers a kind of voluntarism (discourse of the will--they LOVE it), the democrats a more socially-oriented response.

when it comes to educational policy, the right favors privatization, the democrats--well, what? they default into defending the existing system because, and ONLY because, when compared with the lunacy of the conservative educational philosophy, the status quo doesnt look so bad.

but think about it. the educational system is the primary mechanism of social reproduction--what it reproduces is the class system that is in place---but the american economic order has been fundamentally transformed since the late 1970s--and there is talk about adjustments, but no adjustments--time passes, the reorganization of the american socio-economic order accelerates, affecting sector after sector---and along with that the class profile being reproduced by the american educational system and the profile of the labor pool diverge more and more. think the disappearance of the american working class. think the much graver problems that result for the poor. the ideological order within which we operate would assign everyone either a place in the "middle class" or they disappear. the ideology under which we operate is geared around denial. it is a mechanism of denial.

addressing this process would require asking certain questions: does it make sense for the united states to simply allow its internal organization to be remolded by the reorganization of capitalism? does it make sense to assume that the logic of this remolding will simply be given by capitalism itself?

it appears that the right imagines this will happen, and in this the right is operating with an understanding of the relations between registers of a particular mode of production that is so crude that it would have made even stalin blush.
how exactly are markets rational? .......

pan, please reread the first part of roachboy's post.....I thought that he responded to you by trying to find out from you hwere you thought the "divide" between Americans actually and why it has to be so narrow, so limiting, so confining, soooooo "to the right".....I think he was challenging you to look at your own arguments "outside of the box"....to look at the indoctrination of the "student" by the American system of education/socialization, so that you might recognize that, on the whole, Americans are trained to live in a narrow little of view that is decidedly to the right of where world economic "dynamics" are continuing to move them towards. The vast majority of Americans are educated to believe in a "system" that is moving rapidly away from being
in their best interests......and that they are already much more "united" and in accord with a belief system that hasn't and won't benefit them.....

If he' s right, pan....what discussion can be aspired to, that will not be based on "everybody knows"......but are actually non-constructive assumptions as a foundation for what to do "to come together" to improve "things"....to improve "the system". Consensus building in a society that is rapidly becoming poorer and has less opportunities of the pre- 1970's variety....a consensus aimed at improving "our way of life".....may actually, pan....offer the potential for a way to block "real" improvement, if....."our way of life"...the socio economic political order that is the root of our "politics"......the two "right leaning" major party politics is the foundational "problem".

...hence the idea that "heated" debate is the outcome of the status quo, and what you regard as "division" is actually a mild form of disagreement, compared to the "fireworks" that must take place, if there is still to be a "middle" economic "class" in the US.....a country that is more and more resembling Manhattan, with only the "haves" and those there to serve them, inhabiting the place......

Do you think pan, that the US seems closer to a system that could spawn this

Quote:

http://www.coha.org/2006/10/10/pragm...south-america/

........"Among those in the ten South American countries polled, Peru registered the highest approval of the United States, with 71 percent having either a very good or good opinion of the U.S. The country with the lowest assessment was Argentina, with a mere 32 percent. The most anti-Bush governments, Bolivia and Venezuela, respectively had 50 percent and 41 percent of those polled answering either very good or good. When asked to rate leaders on a scale from 1 to 10, on which 10 was the best, South Americans gave Bush a score of 4.1, while Chávez received a 5.2 figure.".....

....or this:

Quote:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...ow/1759706.cms

......... To many Mexicans, who make Mr Slim richer with nearly every phone call or trip to the mall, his rise shows their businessmen can run world-class companies. He’s widely praised for turning Telmex - once notorious for taking months or years to install a phone line - into a modern, professional operation. But he also has kept phone rates high in a country where the minimum wage is about 50 cents an hour, and his success inspires anger among Mexicans who resent the concentration of wealth in the hands of the nation’s relatively tiny elite. “Why should we want a few people to hoard all the wealth, if the majority of Mexicans don’t have enough to eat and 30 million Mexicans live on less than 22 pesos ($2) a day?” thundered former leftist presidential candidate Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador.

Now worth an estimated $49 billion, the 67-year-old Slim is the son of a Lebanese father who built a small family fortune from retailing. Mr Slim’s Telefonos de Mexico controls more than 90% of the nation’s fixed phone lines and made $15.9 billion in 2006; his America Movil controls about 70% of cell phone service in Mexico and made $21.6 billion.

click here to read the rest... click to show

Would libertarian majorities in Wash. DC, discourage the concentration of wealth of a Carlos Slim, or foster a tax system that would encourage a Buffet or a Gates to such high levels or philanthropy?

Would the wealth of Buffet or Gates or Carlos Slim, ever be concentrated in the hands of one person, in the first place, uder the Chavez style economic "reforms" so popular in South America?

The point pan, is that there is no "left" side in the US, there is basically only the side leaning much more heavily to the right than you may accept now.
So....there is really no "debate"...embracing US "style". present day "capitalism", which seems more closely akin to the even more rightist "corporatism", to me..... So the question is....what do you advocate us coming together to do.....to form a unified, even more right leaning, pro status quo agenda of continued indoctrination in our schools to support a system that is rotting out our economic security and our futures?

I believe that we need to challenge and, at this stage, brutally criticize the status quo and the current economic "system", and the two rightist "money parties....and I think disagreement will probably mirror the everyday world, and it won't be friendly....just as Chomsky would not be enthusiatically received here. Our system is broken, things must be shaken up.

It will be "in you face", as it is on Pelosi's lawn.....with a challenge from middle leaning folks who many would consider the "extreme left".....democrats against the continued war who see Pelosi as hindering withdrawal legislation, instead of leading it.

You can't seperate money and power from politics, pan....it is the "business" of taking, dividing, and distributing both....the process evokes emotions, even in a "capitalist" society. United right leaning Americans will result in things like the ISG and the 9/11 commission, when what we need for the benefit of the greater good, is a serious dialog about the pros and cons of the rationality of markets, or capitalism, and what we can learn that is helpful to the most of us, about the "work" and policies of Chavez and the leaders of Brazil and Bolivia, and ways to lessent the chances of other Carlos Slims and Bill Gates, without loosing the benefits to society of their vision, planning and execution.

I'm angry pan.....angry for radical change.....and fearing that it's already too late...hence the impatience, and the less than eager embrace of a "why can't we all just get along" movement....that stays in it's "to the right" sphere.

Most already do "get along", pan....and it's tendency is to blind as it binds...

pan6467 · 03-13-2007, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

what are you talking about?
and how did you possibly read roachboy's post to "blame the Right?"
if anything, roachboy argued that CAPITALISM creates economic injustice and that NEITHER party can get past the idea that capitalism and the structural problems it brings are part of the natural order of things.

it's that kind of interpretation that makes my eyes boog out when I read your responses and wonder how you consider yourself liberal or even moderate. it seems the level of critique you offer isn't anything other than baseless, everyone hates everyone else comments and that's all there is to it according to your analysis. even if it were true, it's tedious to read it in every thread and damn near every post.

EDIT: and I had to go back and reread how we even got to here from there and I find it bizarre, to say the least, that not a few posts of roachboy's back you actually congratulated him on engaging in a discussion with you. and his posts seemed to me to be in response to your questions...so I'm confused as to why you would then turn around and use these same responses as a negative example of what you were trying to show in the beginning of this thread.

You are absolutely right, he offered up debate to the point. Never once did he say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

and there is no debate. there is no discussion. there are no adjustments. there are no options. there IS avoidance. and this primarily because the spectrum of political positions that the americans confuse with a viable range of alternatives simply doesnt allow for this kind of issue to be addressed coherently.
so i dunno.

Sounds like someone willing to work with others to find a viable solution. You're right, what was I thinking?

I did compliment him. He seemed focussed and willing to talk about trying to find positive answers and at least converse the matter with open mind..... until.

Then Host jumps in and we're debating Capitalism..... but what about my discussion on bringing in positive solutions?

I forgot they were answered with open mind here .... again I quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

and there is no debate. there is no discussion. there are no adjustments. there are no options. there IS avoidance. and this primarily because the spectrum of political positions that the americans confuse with a viable range of alternatives simply doesnt allow for this kind of issue to be addressed coherently.
so i dunno.

So in the end, he gets his way. Those that want to work for a positive solution are told there cannot be one.... no debate necessary, people aren't smart enough.... people get confused too easily.... but Roachboy has all the answers he tells us right here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

and there is no debate. there is no discussion. there are no adjustments. there are no options. there IS avoidance. and this primarily because the spectrum of political positions that the americans confuse with a viable range of alternatives simply doesnt allow for this kind of issue to be addressed coherently.
so i dunno.

what I had to say was not worth the time.... but let's talk about Capitalism and how the Right want to destroy everything, turn everything private.... the Left is useless and again.... Debate???? Yeah right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

and there is no debate. there is no discussion. there are no adjustments. there are no options. there IS avoidance. and this primarily because the spectrum of political positions that the americans confuse with a viable range of alternatives simply doesnt allow for this kind of issue to be addressed coherently.
so i dunno.

And yes, I am pretty liberal socially, moderate to a degree fiscally (I believe in cutting waste and abuse but not programs. And I believe the other side wants the same... it's all a matter of compromise and working TOGETHER to find viable solutions. But that must be too boring.... let's turn the thread into a bash against Capitalism. Why? Because Roachboy tells us right here that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

and there is no debate. there is no discussion. there are no adjustments. there are no options. there IS avoidance. and this primarily because the spectrum of political positions that the americans confuse with a viable range of alternatives simply doesnt allow for this kind of issue to be addressed coherently.
so i dunno

.

But I'm the negative one.

OK........

smooth · 03-13-2007, 11:30 PM

pan,
did you think those statements about no debate and no discussion related to you and him? or participants in this thread?

because I read them as a conclusion to his point why nothing is resolved in Congress, for example. That mambers of the two main political parties are unable to debate or discuss things rationally because they are locked in a particular paradigm--namely, that the order of business as it stands today is a natural product of human interaction...so it's hard for them to think of the system as a system and to therefore difficult to discuss the system itself.

as far as I can he was trying to engage with you why he sees people speak past one another other than the fact that they just hate each other. that inability to see one another's point is a function of systems, not a function of personality clashes.

I don't know how his post got converted in your read of it into a position that you and he are unable to sit down and discuss ideas together outside that complex of systems that inform all of our thought processess...

host · 03-13-2007, 11:44 PM

pan.... I just attempted to explain to you why I reacted to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

.......there IS avoidance. and this primarily because the spectrum of political positions that the americans confuse with a viable range of alternatives simply doesnt allow for this kind of issue to be addressed coherently...........

...in the way that I did.

If you have lost faith, like I have....in a "system" that in the best of times, experiences 45 million without health insurance and the bottom 20 percent with no "net worth", while the top one percent holds 30 percent of the total wealth,

and is a "system" that experiences large spikes in inflation and, that, twice in the last 75 years, has featured a decline to 1/5....or less of the recent high valuation of one of it's major stock exchanges, along with high unemployment,
and has produced, in the present decade, an increase from $300 billion annually, in defense and intelligence gathering spending, to more than $700 billion presently.....as it "unwinds" huge numbers of formerly wage and benefit rich "union" jobs.....

.....while the large majority of my countrymen describe that system as the "American way of life", and accept, as a given, that this is a universal belief,
where is the "poltical division", and the "left" vs. "right" "divide" that you condemn as unproductive? Where is the "left" portion of the partisanship that you want to diminish?

pan6467 · 03-13-2007, 11:49 PM

Host,

The attitude you and RB give is that we are doomed and we need radical changes.

It ain't happening unless you want civil war and a nation that may truly not allow freedoms.

Let me ask you this, what is your solution?

You 2 tell us how bad things are, how gloom and doom things are, how there is no hope..... but where are YOUR solutions???????

Where are your plans to change things?

All I have been saying is you open up both sides look at what the majority of the people want, sit the politicians down and find answers. If your senator or Representative doesn't want to find answers then elect new ones.

Debate for positive changes and demand positive changes.... ringing the bell and telling everyone how bad things are does NOTHING, offers NOTHING and takes away any hope that still exists.

In the end you get more people apathetic with politics that way and you create that which you say and speak out against.

So where are your answers??????? Not the problems, everyone knows what the problems are, how would Host and RB solve them and solve them to a degree that the majority will be happy with???????

Oh I forgot the 2 of you do have positive responses:

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

and there is no debate. there is no discussion. there are no adjustments. there are no options. there IS avoidance. and this primarily because the spectrum of political positions that the americans confuse with a viable range of alternatives simply doesnt allow for this kind of issue to be addressed coherently.
so i dunno.

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

I'm angry pan.....angry for radical change.....and fearing that it's already too late...hence the impatience, and the less than eager embrace of a "why can't we all just get along" movement....that stays in it's "to the right" sphere.

Host, turn your anger into something positive, not negative. Work for true change not "radical change" you dream of.... it won't happen.

Radical changes happen in steps and take time.... or if forced happen but end with negative results: Castro, Chavez, Vietnam, China, the old USSR, need I go on?

You have legit points but Host, you will never get a majority to agree to this radical change you are so wanting of.... what you will end up getting is people who want power and they will be far worse than what we have.

I say change the system from within and work in a way that the majority can agree with, have hope in and take part in because they feel positively about it.

matthew330 · 03-14-2007, 03:10 AM

oops, my bad

pig · 03-14-2007, 05:49 AM

I don't really see the problem here. I understand that you're frustrated pan, but if this is the an internet bulletin board thingy (and i think it is) and if both roach and host (and i think i can probably throw smooth in there as well) feel that one of the problems with political discussion is that we aren't asking the correct questions - why would you want to stifle that viewpoint? i have to agree with smooth here; it seems that you are internalizing their comments and pretty blatantly trying to shut down that mode of conversation.

and host, i don't think its too late. i do think it will likely have to get much worse before we reach critical mass, and the solution may not be such that america emerges with its current standard of living.

roachboy · 03-14-2007, 06:05 AM

pan:

you simply misunderstood the posts i put up.

there were two points, really. one was specific to the forum, the other a series of examples of structural problems. the irony, i guess, is that as i was talking about examples of structural problems, i more or less anticipated how you would react--i put it in the posts for gods sake...

anyway, you decided for some reason to isolate the last paragraph of no. 82. that paragraph follows from the previous paragraphs in the post and does not mean what you take it to mean.
here it is in context:

Quote:

the right's "plan" is to surrender: privatize everything, kids. that way, when the shit hits the fan politically as a result of a defunctionalized educational system that chooses social control over social opportunity, particularly when it comes to the poor, who in conservativeland are self-evidently expendable, there will be no political consequences to be bourne. that way, the populations whose futures are maimed can choke in silence. and that, apprently, is the american way, that is the way it should be.

the democrats default into defending the status quo. the argument that the status quo is preferable to crackpot notions like school vouchers is certainly persuasive in itself (to me anyway)--but the effect of this pseudo-debate is to marginalize critiques of the system itself--there is no space for such critiques.

but the problems that are being performed by the public education system in the states are structural. they speak to the inability of the dominant ideology to provide an adequate framework for thinking about the nature, meaning and responses to conditions that are unfolding beneath your feet, within your city, in real time, all around you.

it simply seems to me that the dominant ideology in the states is about avoiding all this. and we are talking here about ONE SECTOR. there are lots of sectors. there are lots of deep problems. this globalizing capitalism thing isnt working out as the neoliberals halluncinated that it would. and this is not a process that is only fucking around the southern hemisphere: it is generating and/or excerbating many real problems in the states as well.

and there is no debate. there is no discussion. there are no adjustments. there are no options. there IS avoidance. and this primarily because the spectrum of political positions that the americans confuse with a viable range of alternatives simply doesnt allow for this kind of issue to be addressed coherently.

i put the crux of the section in bold. the last paragraph refers to it.
the premise concerned both political parties in the states.
the set-up was the claim that both parties assume capitalism to be in itself rational---and the outline is as smooth pointed out above.

in no. 80, i included this:

Quote:

now judging from the way in which you present yourself, pan, it would appear to follow that for someone to dwell on this kind of problem, and to do it here, would be tantamount to introducing some vibe of "hate and negativity"---in this case, these empty terms that you like to throw around function simply to exclude issues from debate. and if the claim underpinning this exclusion centers on concern for the future, then i think you create a problem for yourself: i dont see how the future is served by avoiding difficult problems.

and i dont see anything in your preferred exlcusionary categories of "hate and negativity" but a desire to avoid complex problems in the name of maintaining some facile optimism.

"no no, let's not talk about that, man, it's bumming me out."

QED.

i'm all for working out solutions, pan: but it makes no sense to me to think about that if the issues as framed are too limited, or if entire areas of problems are excluded up front from debate.

i'm all for solutions--i just think it is better if the solutions are coherent----call me cranky that way.

i'm all for solutions--i just dont exclude the possibility that for solutions to structural problems to unfold, it might require a far more radical political change than folk like you are anticipating.

i dont exclude radical change. i dont exclude a political project that would tend toward revolution. in many ways, i think that radical political transformation is desirable--BUT i do not default into this position. i couldn't if i wanted to: i have spent far too many years tracking the history of the devolution of the left and of the old style of revolutionary politics.

i think that you can argue that structural problems are created by the unfolding of capitalist rationality and that the source of the problems is the rationality itself. from that, what i said about the basic position i operate from follows----i lean toward--am at least open to--that position. the problem is that the position itself is empty. if there is to be a revolutionary project, it has to be rebuilt from the basic conceptual level on up. this is at the core of my academic work: it runs through almost everything that i do in that context.

at the same time, however, i am in this world and there are problems. i live here and part of me would prefer that these problems be manageable within this framework: but i also am open to the possibility that they are not.

last thing: none of these problems are inevitable, none of them spring from Nature or from History (if you understand that as some abstract force that orders the world)--WE MAKE THEM. WE MAKE THEM WHEN WE REPEAT THEM. WHEN WE REPEAT THEM, WE ARE THEM.

pan6467 · 03-14-2007, 09:37 AM

RB,

I do feel it is the right and duty of everyone to push the government to do better. That includes asking tough questions and finding the answers.

However, I'm also a realist and realistically what we have now, as imperfect as it maybe, as one sided as it may seem it is the best form of government and freedom man has seen in modern day history. But it doesn't mean we have to stop there. We build onto it, we take away from it as needed and when needed. If Bush is evil.... we have only 2 more years... we vote him out and we find a new guy to pin everything on. Unless we decide to get positive and we elect someone with true ideas and plans to better the country.

We get only what we want... we want negative politicians we get them... we want to be apathetic we are.... we want to be bullied by extremists we will be.... we want the press to tell us how to be.... we will be told..... Negativity = easy.

I've stated many times, this nation is primarily a nation of centrists. The vast majority are not radical. Maybe one one or two issues but they are pretty much middle ground.

I am not of the belief that "both parties are the same because that is how the powers that be want it." They are what they are because WE are. There isn't much difference because there isn't much difference in what the needs and wants are.

If we have negative corrupt politicians, it isn't because of some grand scheme, or master plan.... it's because we put them there. Again, negativity begets negativity. People don't demand true change until the nation goes too far one way.

Are we ever going to have a perfect society, where everyone is treated equally, everyone has the same amount of money, everyone is fed etc etc?

No, it's impossible. The only thing possible is to take what we have and make it better. The only way to make it better is to open dialogue between the 2 sides stop pushing the to be defensive over everything they believe and embrace the possibility that together they may find answers and solutions.

If I am beat over the head every day for a belief that the sky is pink and purple polka dotted..... I am eventually going to do 1 of 2 things.... 1) I will get defensive and never change my mind ....... or 2) I will eventually get tired of fighting and comply, but also have hatred and an "I'll show them" attitude. That is what we are doing to society today.

The media, politicians, politics board theorists..... etc all are beating down people with how they should believe.

The Dems are told to believe this way..... the GOP that way.... but in doing so the middle ground and the majority of people who want middle ground are used as warfare and pushed and pulled and dictated to by the 2 extremes.

It's time to stop letting the extremes run the country and find poistive solutions.

This country is not black and white but full of grays and can grow.... but we allow the politicians, press and so on to tell us it's all black and white and there is no other choice. They beat us down and tell us how horrid the other side is and run by fear.

Solutions, compromises and bettering the country is out there and within reach, it's just a matter of truly working to find how best to achieve them.

It's like I asked of you and Host, or anyone here. Stop complaining, stop telling everyone how bad everything is and come up with solutions and debate those..... people watch, they learn they see what they like and then they get opinions and add input and soon people are no longer scared to speak out, or feel they are not smart enough, or feel left behind.... but that they are included and what they say matters.

That is the key to this country and to bettering our society. Not ringing bells, blowing whistles, telling everyone how bad everything is.... but giving everyone the oppurtunity to have a voice, to embrace their ideas (on local levels and then their reps and senators take them higher), to give everyone hope and a feeling of belonging in society.

Greed, chasing the Smiths, etc. etc. stems from one problem: the people are losing their sense of community belonging. They don't feel a part of the community, they don't feel a sense of having a voice and way to input ideas.... so they go out and buy all the neat stuff that allows them to feel they belong.

Man is a social animal.... however the individual needs to feel that what they do matters .......... if anything is truly wrong with this country.... it's that we have allowed that sense, that needs to be dismissed and taken away from us.

It's time to get it back, even if it is only on this insignificant forum at first.... good ideas and positive energy while they have to work harder are heard, seen and spread like wildfire.... not that they take immediately but people see them and start thinking and begin to believe there can be better.... that's a start.

roachboy · 03-14-2007, 12:25 PM

i debated for a while whether to respond to this last post or not.
i still havent really decided.

basically, all i see in it is a restatement of where you started from, pan.

it seems to me that the refusal to engage with the positions others outline is far more negative in the context of a discussion or debate than anything even the most extreme political activist could post, so long as that activist actually listened to--or read in this case--what others say.

i am not sure that i see the point in continuing with this discussion: it is not getting anywhere and holds out no promise that it will get anywhere.

raveneye · 03-14-2007, 01:12 PM

Thanks, host, your posts here are much much more valuable than most people seem to comprehend, and it’s always good to check in and see you strong and on target and not taking any crap . . . . And I envy your patience

tecoyah · 03-20-2007, 03:24 AM

Toward the end of my time spent in TFPolitics, I found myself watching as threads degraded into sidelines of the intended topic. Often these discussions were quite interesting and informative, but did not draw me into reply as they were often sparring matches , and ego redemption. As this became more and more prevelant I simply lost interest in the forum politics and went elsewhere.
Each and every debate forum has its own personality and focus, as intended, and the members have the ability to guide these things if willing to put forth the intellect and energy required to enact change. This forum is case in point, as it is an ever evolving conglomeration of the people who frequently post and reply.
The point is, you all can make this little slice of opinion exchange into whatever you want it to be, if you have the inclination to do so......

dc_dux · 03-20-2007, 07:44 PM

Quote:

The point is, you all can make this little slice of opinion exchange into whatever you want it to be, if you have the inclination to do so...

It come down to whether the TFP political community simply wants an "opinion exchange" or a more thought provoking fact-based discussion forum.

It was the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan (among others) who said, "We are each entitled to our own opinion, but no one is entitled to his own facts."

The most informative exchanges and discussions here have been those in which opinions on both sides of an issue are supported with facts. Unfortunately, IMO, that has not been the case in many such exchanges and discussions.

The first step to Pan's stated vision of compromise and consensus building for the greater good, which I (and I believe most here) share, is working from a mutually acceptable, factual based, data set.

03-13-2007, 08:07 AM	#81 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Well, if neither the left nor the right is really dealing with seemingly intractable problems like classism and racism in America, and I believe this is true, then what purpose does it serve to align yourself with one of them? This happens to be an issue that I care very much about. Yet, I consider myself to be politically moderate. For me, being moderate is not so much about compromise. It's a rejection of the stalemate and assimilation, that you also seem to perceive, in American two-party politics. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

03-13-2007, 08:51 AM	#82 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	there's two questions crunched into each other in the last post i put up: 1. the particular functions of pan's mode of interaction in this place when it comes to structural problems and debate about them and 2. an outline of the type of problem in the actually existing world (whatever that means, really) that moderate-ness as processed through (1) would functionally exclude. then a little rant got started and took on a life of its own. anyway: i guess my position would come down to: the dominant political parties in the states both operate within ideological boxes that are geared around avoidance of structural problems. the shared assumptions: capitalism is in itself rational. the parties differ on the extent of that rationality and on what needs to be done compensate for its shortcomings--but both believe that capitalism is in itself rational. because capitalism is in itself rational, then it follows that the united states, which is the belly of the beast, is in itself rational. problems that arise then are adjustment issues, not functions of problems with the underlying rationality itself. so problems that arise, and which cannot be avoided (avoidance being always plan a, it seems), therefore can be addressed by tacking on some extra element that will be charged with making the necessary adjustment. but the assumption that the socio-economic order within the united states is necessarily rational because, somehow, it cannot be otherwise a priori is a shared assumption that cuts across party divisions. obviously, when it comes to fashioning these extra adjustment mechanisms, reps and dems diverge: the right prefers a kind of voluntarism (discourse of the will--they LOVE it), the democrats a more socially-oriented response. when it comes to educational policy, the right favors privatization, the democrats--well, what? they default into defending the existing system because, and ONLY because, when compared with the lunacy of the conservative educational philosophy, the status quo doesnt look so bad. but think about it. the educational system is the primary mechanism of social reproduction--what it reproduces is the class system that is in place---but the american economic order has been fundamentally transformed since the late 1970s--and there is talk about adjustments, but no adjustments--time passes, the reorganization of the american socio-economic order accelerates, affecting sector after sector---and along with that the class profile being reproduced by the american educational system and the profile of the labor pool diverge more and more. think the disappearance of the american working class. think the much graver problems that result for the poor. the ideological order within which we operate would assign everyone either a place in the "middle class" or they disappear. the ideology under which we operate is geared around denial. it is a mechanism of denial. addressing this process would require asking certain questions: does it make sense for the united states to simply allow its internal organization to be remolded by the reorganization of capitalism? does it make sense to assume that the logic of this remolding will simply be given by capitalism itself? it appears that the right imagines this will happen, and in this the right is operating with an understanding of the relations between registers of a particular mode of production that is so crude that it would have made even stalin blush. how exactly are markets rational? is social reproduction a market function? clearly it is not--it feeds into labor pools but is not itself a function of those pools--it does not move along with the structure of labor pools, there is nothing automatic about the relation. the relation requires a degree of planning. the right's "plan" is to surrender: privatize everything, kids. that way, when the shit hits the fan politically as a result of a defunctionalized educational system that chooses social control over social opportunity, particularly when it comes to the poor, who in conservativeland are self-evidently expendable, there will be no political consequences to be bourne. that way, the populations whose futures are maimed can choke in silence. and that, apprently, is the american way, that is the way it should be. the democrats default into defending the status quo. the argument that the status quo is preferable to crackpot notions like school vouchers is certainly persuasive in itself (to me anyway)--but the effect of this pseudo-debate is to marginalize critiques of the system itself--there is no space for such critiques. but the problems that are being performed by the public education system in the states are structural. they speak to the inability of the dominant ideology to provide an adequate framework for thinking about the nature, meaning and responses to conditions that are unfolding beneath your feet, within your city, in real time, all around you. it simply seems to me that the dominant ideology in the states is about avoiding all this. and we are talking here about ONE SECTOR. there are lots of sectors. there are lots of deep problems. this globalizing capitalism thing isnt working out as the neoliberals halluncinated that it would. and this is not a process that is only fucking around the southern hemisphere: it is generating and/or excerbating many real problems in the states as well. and there is no debate. there is no discussion. there are no adjustments. there are no options. there IS avoidance. and this primarily because the spectrum of political positions that the americans confuse with a viable range of alternatives simply doesnt allow for this kind of issue to be addressed coherently. so i dunno. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-13-2007, 10:19 AM	#84 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	Pan: You've definitely got my respect and admiration for having the heart to fight the good fight, however small and hard-fought the gains are. While I don't disagree with the thrust of your feelings on negativity, I think there's also a trap in single-minded focus on "solutions". When I was still in school, this mindset was frequently employed by the administration as the ultimate criticism killer. Don't like the way housing is allocated? Come up with a better method. Don't think our vendor contracts are negotiated to students' advantage? Figure out a better system. Disagree with the way teacher evaluations are handled? YOU fix it. This was so effective at shutting down unwanted feedback because the people with the ground-level view were not the ones with the resources and knowledge, to say nothing of responsibility, to solve the problems. In my year working in that administration, I got a lot of attention for telling students to come to me with problems because it was my job to fix them. I think a certain level of this translates to what goes on at tfp - and it's a question central to who we think we are and what our space will become. So far as I know, none of us are politicians. None of us have the whole picture, the knowledge, the resources, or the responsibility to fix these problems. To insist that every post or thread without a solution packaged is nothing more than negativity is to lock us into choosing between silence and pie-in-the-sky posts. I'm perfectly happy to learn about and discuss problems here. I know that none of us is likely to come up with anything as grand as a solution. For me, the reward is in learning to use some insight that one of you posts and think about the world around me in a clearer fashion... __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

03-13-2007, 11:35 AM	#86 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	damn it. this just won't work. i'll try again later. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 03-13-2007 at 11:39 AM..

03-13-2007, 12:14 PM	#87 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Gold is down to $645 from a high of $800 something not too long ago. Up and down, up and down, round and round we go. Nothing to see here. For every economist or expert opinion there is an equal and opposite opinion. Que serra serra, whatever will be will be...... Host, I'm a little short on time but I will do my best to come back and complete my post. I want to give some references and stuff. I want a chance to respond to your position on the economy (RE: price of gold etc). Thanks. Last edited by jorgelito; 03-13-2007 at 12:35 PM.. Reason: add paragraph

03-13-2007, 12:19 PM	#88 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	I don't disagree with you, roachboy, but I don't agree with you either. I don't agree that conservative policies and social agendas are inherently evil and predicated on the exploitation of the poor. And I don't believe that the globalization experiment has had the chance to yet be deemed a failure. I do believe the world must gain some homogeneity in regards to economic opportunity and that in the process, cultural distinctions will become less so and it will cause much strife and struggle around the world. I believe that the way of life we have taken for granted in the West will (continue to) take a downturn as people in places we normally haven't given much thought to start to claim their own piece of what we used to so charmingly refer to as the "American Pie" - as if it were the bottomless dessert tray that just naturally comes along with Manifest Destiny. I don't know what to think about liberals who decry the American capitalist system and then cry when the American capitalist status quo starts to dissolve under their feet. You can't have it both ways. Yes, corporate entities are taking advantage of cheaper labor to make more money. But they are also giving jobs to people who would do just about anything to scrub toilets in a fast-food restaurant so they could have the privilege of not watching their children starve to death. Yet we liberals here in the states want to be able to sit at a nice little table outside of Starbucks with our four dollar cafe latte and bemoan how bad off we are, how horrible capitalism is and the how evil the conservatives are when the truth is that the roots of the problem are so much deeper, more daunting and more horrible than we even want to begin thinking about. I don't have a lot of patience for it. My point is, I don't think pure liberalism (ie, socialism) is anymore of an answer than pure conservatism (ie, capitalism). I think the answer will lie somewhere in the middle. In a system that gives people both social and economic opportunity. More control over their communities and more control over their lives. From the standpoint of the world we are living in now, I think this outcome is more likely than that of the world slaveholder cum, corpo-illuminati dictatorship model and that of the world-sharing, level playing field model. Thusly, I find myself self-identifying as a moderate. Granted, I am not the most knowledgeable person around here and I don't have a compendium of graphs and articles to base my opinion on. My ideas are based on my own observations and what I believe is a pretty well-grounded sense of pragmatism. And that's about that. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

03-13-2007, 09:54 PM	#90 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	what are you talking about? and how did you possibly read roachboy's post to "blame the Right?" if anything, roachboy argued that CAPITALISM creates economic injustice and that NEITHER party can get past the idea that capitalism and the structural problems it brings are part of the natural order of things. it's that kind of interpretation that makes my eyes boog out when I read your responses and wonder how you consider yourself liberal or even moderate. it seems the level of critique you offer isn't anything other than baseless, everyone hates everyone else comments and that's all there is to it according to your analysis. even if it were true, it's tedious to read it in every thread and damn near every post. EDIT: and I had to go back and reread how we even got to here from there and I find it bizarre, to say the least, that not a few posts of roachboy's back you actually congratulated him on engaging in a discussion with you. and his posts seemed to me to be in response to your questions...so I'm confused as to why you would then turn around and use these same responses as a negative example of what you were trying to show in the beginning of this thread. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman Last edited by smooth; 03-13-2007 at 10:00 PM..

03-13-2007, 11:30 PM	#93 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	pan, did you think those statements about no debate and no discussion related to you and him? or participants in this thread? because I read them as a conclusion to his point why nothing is resolved in Congress, for example. That mambers of the two main political parties are unable to debate or discuss things rationally because they are locked in a particular paradigm--namely, that the order of business as it stands today is a natural product of human interaction...so it's hard for them to think of the system as a system and to therefore difficult to discuss the system itself. as far as I can he was trying to engage with you why he sees people speak past one another other than the fact that they just hate each other. that inability to see one another's point is a function of systems, not a function of personality clashes. I don't know how his post got converted in your read of it into a position that you and he are unable to sit down and discuss ideas together outside that complex of systems that inform all of our thought processess... __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

03-14-2007, 03:10 AM	#96 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	oops, my bad Last edited by matthew330; 03-14-2007 at 06:09 AM..

03-14-2007, 05:49 AM	#97 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	I don't really see the problem here. I understand that you're frustrated pan, but if this is the an internet bulletin board thingy (and i think it is) and if both roach and host (and i think i can probably throw smooth in there as well) feel that one of the problems with political discussion is that we aren't asking the correct questions - why would you want to stifle that viewpoint? i have to agree with smooth here; it seems that you are internalizing their comments and pretty blatantly trying to shut down that mode of conversation. and host, i don't think its too late. i do think it will likely have to get much worse before we reach critical mass, and the solution may not be such that america emerges with its current standard of living. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

03-14-2007, 09:37 AM	#99 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	RB, I do feel it is the right and duty of everyone to push the government to do better. That includes asking tough questions and finding the answers. However, I'm also a realist and realistically what we have now, as imperfect as it maybe, as one sided as it may seem it is the best form of government and freedom man has seen in modern day history. But it doesn't mean we have to stop there. We build onto it, we take away from it as needed and when needed. If Bush is evil.... we have only 2 more years... we vote him out and we find a new guy to pin everything on. Unless we decide to get positive and we elect someone with true ideas and plans to better the country. We get only what we want... we want negative politicians we get them... we want to be apathetic we are.... we want to be bullied by extremists we will be.... we want the press to tell us how to be.... we will be told..... Negativity = easy. I've stated many times, this nation is primarily a nation of centrists. The vast majority are not radical. Maybe one one or two issues but they are pretty much middle ground. I am not of the belief that "both parties are the same because that is how the powers that be want it." They are what they are because WE are. There isn't much difference because there isn't much difference in what the needs and wants are. If we have negative corrupt politicians, it isn't because of some grand scheme, or master plan.... it's because we put them there. Again, negativity begets negativity. People don't demand true change until the nation goes too far one way. Are we ever going to have a perfect society, where everyone is treated equally, everyone has the same amount of money, everyone is fed etc etc? No, it's impossible. The only thing possible is to take what we have and make it better. The only way to make it better is to open dialogue between the 2 sides stop pushing the to be defensive over everything they believe and embrace the possibility that together they may find answers and solutions. If I am beat over the head every day for a belief that the sky is pink and purple polka dotted..... I am eventually going to do 1 of 2 things.... 1) I will get defensive and never change my mind ....... or 2) I will eventually get tired of fighting and comply, but also have hatred and an "I'll show them" attitude. That is what we are doing to society today. The media, politicians, politics board theorists..... etc all are beating down people with how they should believe. The Dems are told to believe this way..... the GOP that way.... but in doing so the middle ground and the majority of people who want middle ground are used as warfare and pushed and pulled and dictated to by the 2 extremes. It's time to stop letting the extremes run the country and find poistive solutions. This country is not black and white but full of grays and can grow.... but we allow the politicians, press and so on to tell us it's all black and white and there is no other choice. They beat us down and tell us how horrid the other side is and run by fear. Solutions, compromises and bettering the country is out there and within reach, it's just a matter of truly working to find how best to achieve them. It's like I asked of you and Host, or anyone here. Stop complaining, stop telling everyone how bad everything is and come up with solutions and debate those..... people watch, they learn they see what they like and then they get opinions and add input and soon people are no longer scared to speak out, or feel they are not smart enough, or feel left behind.... but that they are included and what they say matters. That is the key to this country and to bettering our society. Not ringing bells, blowing whistles, telling everyone how bad everything is.... but giving everyone the oppurtunity to have a voice, to embrace their ideas (on local levels and then their reps and senators take them higher), to give everyone hope and a feeling of belonging in society. Greed, chasing the Smiths, etc. etc. stems from one problem: the people are losing their sense of community belonging. They don't feel a part of the community, they don't feel a sense of having a voice and way to input ideas.... so they go out and buy all the neat stuff that allows them to feel they belong. Man is a social animal.... however the individual needs to feel that what they do matters .......... if anything is truly wrong with this country.... it's that we have allowed that sense, that needs to be dismissed and taken away from us. It's time to get it back, even if it is only on this insignificant forum at first.... good ideas and positive energy while they have to work harder are heard, seen and spread like wildfire.... not that they take immediately but people see them and start thinking and begin to believe there can be better.... that's a start. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 03-14-2007 at 09:45 AM..

03-14-2007, 12:25 PM	#100 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i debated for a while whether to respond to this last post or not. i still havent really decided. basically, all i see in it is a restatement of where you started from, pan. it seems to me that the refusal to engage with the positions others outline is far more negative in the context of a discussion or debate than anything even the most extreme political activist could post, so long as that activist actually listened to--or read in this case--what others say. i am not sure that i see the point in continuing with this discussion: it is not getting anywhere and holds out no promise that it will get anywhere. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-14-2007, 01:12 PM	#101 (permalink)
raveneye Born Against	Thanks, host, your posts here are much much more valuable than most people seem to comprehend, and it’s always good to check in and see you strong and on target and not taking any crap . . . . And I envy your patience

03-20-2007, 03:24 AM	#102 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Toward the end of my time spent in TFPolitics, I found myself watching as threads degraded into sidelines of the intended topic. Often these discussions were quite interesting and informative, but did not draw me into reply as they were often sparring matches , and ego redemption. As this became more and more prevelant I simply lost interest in the forum politics and went elsewhere. Each and every debate forum has its own personality and focus, as intended, and the members have the ability to guide these things if willing to put forth the intellect and energy required to enact change. This forum is case in point, as it is an ever evolving conglomeration of the people who frequently post and reply. The point is, you all can make this little slice of opinion exchange into whatever you want it to be, if you have the inclination to do so......