Poppinjay

Don't forget the part where spit beechnut in someone's eye and run a trout line.

Couldn't resist.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

dksuddeth

let me guess, you're spinning this so that you can call every criminal with a gun, whether they technically own the gun or not, an irresponsible gun owner so you can lump a larger group together, right?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

xepherys

Holy... crap...

Against whatever you may legitimately ned defending against.

Where in D.C.? Try walking around Detroit, MI or Flint, MI at night. Maybe Gary, IN? Chicago, IL? Hmmm...

False! People cannot then legally carry a concealed weapon. This does not mean you are safe to assume that nobody is carrying a concealed weapon. Those that one might need to defend against will carry however they see fit regardless of the local laws.

It's our business as Americans, actually...

Are you married? What if someone broke into your house tied you up at gunpoint and had his way with your wife? I bet you'd be glad you were a law abiding citizen that didn't own a gun. Because, of course, he'll be caught, and punished, and that justice will satisfy you and your wife. WTF world do you live in will?

Wow... I'd rather shoot someone, and maybe kill them, then risk that they may be willing to commit violent crimes against me and my family. If they already BROKE INTO MY HOUSE, their well-being is not my concern.


Okay, I'll stop now...

Willravel

Spin? 'Irresponsible gun owner without a permit', or rather one who obtained a firearm illegally, and has mal intent. Better?
Not false. If it is illegal to have a concealed weapon, and someone is caught with a concealed weapon, that's it. The gun is gone, and they are in trouble. This applies to both the legal gun owners who will be slapped with a fine, and the illegal gun owners who will be tried and convicted. I realize that this law clearly won't ensure that everyone will get caught, far from it in fact, but as we've already argued: why would a legal gun owner need to conceal a weapon?
Well, in my case, it would be easier to rape me than my wife...gun or not. My wife is better at martial arts (which included disarmament of people using a gun) than I am. I live in reality where there is a difference between taking responsibility for your own safety, without needing to shoot and kill anyone and everyone who could pose a threat, and your world where everyone lives in the matrix, and you can shoot and kill everyone and be all important because of it. Take the blue pill, you're not the one.

dksuddeth

Close. You are making the same assumption that alot of people who are against guns make. You are assuming that anyone who has a gun that is illegal is irresponsible. The truth is that there are millions around the country who own guns, illegal or not, that ARE responsible. You would never know that they had a gun, but that gun is still there for there protection.

I've explained this to you before Will. In some states where open carry is legal (washington state for example) the police will generally harass people who are carrying legallly, because those police think that a licensed person carrying is more dangerous than a criminal concealing. what kind of logic is that? On top of that, because of the continued misrepresentation put out there by the antis, people continually think that ANYONE with a gun is bad.

This is perplexing to me. People that continually believe that because they know 'self defense' or martial arts think that they don't have to worry about breakins or assaults are just asking for that eye opening, world shattering, life threatening experience. I'm sorry to say it Will, but you don't live in reality. People who carry for their protection ARE taking responsibility for their own safety. Just because its a way you don't approve of is irrelevant. Read the stories I posted in the other thread and tell me that you still believe that every one of them could have defended themselves without a gun.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Leto

Holy... crap...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
defense against what?

Against whatever you may legitimately ned defending against.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppinjay
There's crime in Wisconsin?

I go about DC without so much as a rusty can opener and feel safe.

Where in D.C.? Try walking around Detroit, MI or Flint, MI at night. Maybe Gary, IN? Chicago, IL? Hmmm...


Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Um, the concealed weapons can be used by criminals, too. This isn't trying to take your gun, or whatever yiou deem necessary to preotect your family, but it's taking away the danger of not knowing who is or isn't armed.

False! People cannot then legally carry a concealed weapon. This does not mean you are safe to assume that nobody is carrying a concealed weapon. Those that one might need to defend against will carry however they see fit regardless of the local laws.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StanT
If the majority of people in Wisconsin, Illinois, and California (or their legally elected representatives) decide that concealed carry is a bad idea, why is it any of your business as a Texan?

It's our business as Americans, actually...


Quote:
willravel]That is a case where someone broke the law. Not only did the man own a gun illegally, but he discharged it illegally. He should be prosecuted alongside of the person who was obviously guilty of breaking and entering. It's not insane, it's the law. What if I wanted to rape someone? What if I wanted to own slaves? I can't just do it because I think the laws are wrong. That's insane.

Are you married? What if someone broke into your house tied you up at gunpoint and had his way with your wife? I bet you'd be glad you were a law abiding citizen that didn't own a gun. Because, of course, he'll be caught, and punished, and that justice will satisfy you and your wife. WTF world do you live in will?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto
he what???? shot at somebody because they broke into his house??? wtf? where is his mind at? He could have killed whoever that was. Yes the person was breaking and entering, but holy shit, that's not worth killing somebody. Where is this going to go?

Wow... I'd rather shoot someone, and maybe kill them, then risk that they may be willing to commit violent crimes against me and my family. If they already BROKE INTO MY HOUSE, their well-being is not my concern.


Okay, I'll stop now...




!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



like i've posited before... a completely different mind-set. not mecesarily bad, just different, probably developed for a different environment.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Willravel

If you own a gun without a permit, you are breaking the law. Breaking the law is iiresponsible. It's no more complicated than that.
Then those specific cops are idiots, and people should report them. There are plenty of pro gun police officers.
I don't fear criminals. Most of them are stupid. Most of them are desperate. Most of them have little to no training (in gun fire or fighting). This isn't about your reality, in which the world is out to get you. This is about the reality reflected in EVERY statistic in the country. This is the reality in which the odds of my house being broken into are so small that making an investment like a gun would not only be a waste of money but would bring a very dangerous weapon into a house with a two year old girl in it. That is what I deep a larger danger. I've seen too many stories about kids playing with guns, even when they are locked up, and hurting or killing with those guns accedentally. Even on the microscopic chance that my house is broken into, the odds are that the person is just down and out and looking for some stuff to hawk. I'm not saying this person isn't dangerous, but this person probably isn't a career criminal. Let's say that the odds are really not in my favor and I hit the lottory and a real career criminal does break in. Well, and you can ask Long about this in the other thread, odds are that they will break in when we are not home. Career criminals know that their job is much easier when there is no one home, so they usually strike during the dat when the house is empty, or when the amily is on vacation. Confrontation is not on the top of their list of things to do. I have the financial security where I can afford to lose a TV or DVD player. Now lets say that I really get struck by lightning, and the person who breaks in doesn't want to steal frim us, but breaks in with the pure intention of doing harm. This is the person that matters. This is the person where we would have to fight back. Do you know what the odds are that a person like this will break in to my house? I challenge you to find the statistics, and then convince me that I am in any kind of danger.

dksuddeth

so you ARE equating illegal gun ownership with murder. it's no more complicated than that.

Have you ever filed a complaint against a police officer? It's not as easy as it sounds. try it sometime and see.

Again, you do not live in reality. Read the stories I posted. What do you think THEY thought the odds were about being invaded? I'm sure THEY thought that confrontation was not on the criminals mind either, and yet it happened. It's like playing russian roulette with your family. THAT is insane.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

xepherys

That's cute! I never said anything about shooting and killing anyone and everyone who could pose a threat. I think in the spot you quoted me before saying this, I was talking about someone who had violated the law, my private space, and may possibly cause my family harm. I don't consider that a movie-goers experience... I consider it a possible, real-life nightmare. It DOES happen. Actually, it happens fairly frequently in metro cities. Watch the news in Detroit, Chicago, Atlanta, LA, NY, Dallas... 5:00 news... you'll see something similar at LEAST once or twice a week. I don't personally carry a gun... and currently I don't have one in my home, simply because I have not purchased one... however, I feel it's a good thing, and that with proper care and use, the ownership of a firearm is a huge benefit from a safety perspective.

Yes, most criminals are stupid... some are VERY bright. There's also organized crime, which involves both types of people. Yes, the chance is minimal, but this chance also varies depending on where you live. Go buy a house in Hamtramck, MI and try to tell me the chance of something happening to you is minimal. As for the two-year-old daughter... that comes down to good parenting. In rural areas, where nearly every house has a rifle or shotgun for hunting and safety uses, children are MUCH less likely to shoot themselves or someone else than in urban areas where parents try to "hide" the gun from their kids. Children have an amazing capability to learn. Just be a parent and teach your child about guns and gun safety, and she's FAR more likely to be safe around the house with a firearm in it. *shrug*

Again, not every criminal is there with intent to steal. There are rapists, murderers, kidnappers. Those types are more likely to break in when you ARE home... they don't want your DVD player or TV... they want to harm you. I'm not paranoid. I lock my doors and that's about it. I don't have an alarm system, or sleep with a gun under my pillow... but I also think you are mildly delusional, or you live in an EXTREMELY safe area. Either way, good for you, but not everyone does. In fact, the vast majority of the US population live in dense urban areas, which also happen to be the places with the highest occurance of violent crimes.

Willravel

I'm equating illegal gun ownership with breaking the law. Jeez.
I've had an officer screamed at by a judge, does that count? If you write me a speeding ticket for going 38 in a 35 zone, you're not protecting the welfare of society, you're trying to meet quota. If there is no evidence of you committing a crime, then what will they charge you with? You don't need to go to the police, a lawyer can make them get back in line.
Let's say that I have a random number generator that will pick a number between 1 and 30,000. What are the odds that you'd guess correctly on the first time? You are more likely to guess the correct number, between 1 and 30,000, than you are to be murdered in Wisconsin in a given year (and that's murder total, not just gun related murders). There is no danger.

Let's talk about those stories you posted. How many stories are there out there about a family that lives through the night and wakes up alive and well the next morning? Tes, there is crime. No crime is not a big deal.

Russian roulette gives you a 1 in 6 chance, not a 1 in 50,000-60,000 chance.

Willravel

Unless you take into account how many justifiable homicides there are every year in the US. According to the FBI data, there were 1,412 justified homicides in the United States from 1987 through 1991 (the most recent figures available). That's about 141 justifiable homicides a year, on average. How many people in America own guns? I'd guess about 8 million. Those figures don't equate.
I'm more likely to be hit by lightning that to be broken into and murdered in San Jose. Even still, I take more preventative measures for the breaking and entering threat (the security doors were kinda expensive).
Rapists: Not really a threat because most rapists aren't trained fighters. ALSO, my wife and I are home at the same time at almost all times. 2 fighters who have a combined experience of almost 30 years vs. one rapist (they don't travel in packs) = I'm not too worried.
Murderers: Statiscitcally speaking, it's a virtual impossibility. San Jose is the safest large city - city of over 1,000,000 - in the US (we either rank #1 or #2, either way, not too bad). Combine that with security doors, and having good connections with neightbors, and we;re quite safe.
Kidnappers: this would be my greatest concern. I can't guerentee my daughters safety when she's in daycare, but no one really can. Having a gun wouldn't really help me in this scenereo.

We shouldn't use me and my family as examples, though. Not everyone has training in martial arts. Not everyone lives in San Jose. Not everyone has security doors.

Would you mind if we were to use you?

dksuddeth

if theres even a SLIGHT chance, and I mean 1 in 5,000,000,000 that you're house could be broken in to and your family injured and you DON'T do everything necessary to protect your family, you are the failure. end of story. your family is the most important thing in the world, don't play the odds, because if you lose, you lose big time.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

Then you are a failure in protecting your family from a volcano. your family is the most important thing in the world, don't play the odds, because if you lose, you lose big time. There could be volcanic activity beneith your house right now!

This is, of course, absurd. Everyone lives their life playing the odds. You could be hit by lightning tomorrow as you pick up your morning paper, BUT you venture out into the unknown despite the possible danger! Everything in existence works on odds possibilities. Things tend to happen. You could be invaded by a home invader, and you could get flesh eating bacteria. The odds of being effected by either of those things makes preperation a bit silly.

xepherys

will-

Sure, use me. My wife and I are both soldiers in the US Army. We've both been trained in hand-to-hand and armed combat. We live in Phoenix, specifically Tempe, AZ which is fairly safe. We have no alarms. Our front door has two bolt locks, and our back is a slidign glass door. What is different in these scenarios? What is the same? Also note that being a trained fighter doesn't always give you the upper hand. The person breaking into your house in the middle of the night gains a lot of that back out of sheer suprise alone. Also, how do you know they aren't trained? Why is a criminal somehow less likely to have martial arts training or firearms target practice? I can't see a logical path to that conclusion.

dksuddeth

you're making the stupidest comparisons. this is the mark of someone who knows they don't have a stronger argument. my gun can't stop a volcano but it can stop a criminal. comparing criminals to volcanos is like comparing guns to seatbelts.

hows that for torpedoing stupid arguments.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

You've been shut down and you're frustrated, I can understand that.

Let's keep the anti-gun/pro-gun stuff in the san fran thread, as this thread is about being able to conceal a weapon in Wisconsin.

Do you have a lightning rod on your house? You CAN protect youself and your family from the dangerous effects of lightning with a lightning rod. Of course the odds of a lightning strike are small (but bigger than the odds you are broken into).

dksuddeth

i've shown more than was necessary to prove to any reasonable minded individual that a gun can be necessary for defense. I can't help it if you refuse to acknowledge reality because of your judgemental perceptions. good luck with that ban in san fran. when it doesn't work, can i tell you i told you so? also, with this ban, will san fran become liable for their citizens safety?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

sprocket

Just curious but have you or your wife ever been in a real live actual fight, with someone who was actually trying to hurt you? If not, then your sum total experience in those types of situtations is 0. The criminal is likely to have the upper hand.

__________________
Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

Willravel

I have been in 22 seperate street fights in my life (not counting fights in grade school or HS). All have been defensive, all I have won without difficulty. Your assumption that because I am a martial artist that I have no real life experience is telling of your experience with martial artists.
This thread is about the right to conceal a gun in Wisconsin.

dksuddeth

you're right. between the two, i've gotten em mixed up.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

I'm right there with you. I made the same mistake.

Strange Famous

the wider the ownership of guns, the more people are killed by guns, this is a pretty clear correlation.

Any law allowing citizens to arm themselves will cause more deaths, whoever puts in place such a law will have blood on their hands.

And of course, the point isnt really that every citizen of Wisconsin is too irresponsible to own a gun, the point is that you can only tell the people who will kill after the fact most of the time. A gun is a tool, created only with one intention, to deal death to another living creature. Every move to limit the ownership of such a tool is positive and humane, every move to increase the ownership of weapons of destruction is negative, and an act of human destruction.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Strange Famous

and in terms of the common argument, that law abiding people need guns so that they can "protect themselves" from someone breaking into their house (ie - that they have the ability to slay the person breaking into their house)

In a situation where gun ownership is widespread, both housebreaker and homeowner are likely to be armed, and the situation is probably going to end in SOMEONE getting shot and poissibly killed.

In a situation where gun onwership is strictly prohibited, and illicit guns are expensive, illegal and rare - neither party will be armed, and the likely result of a robbery is simply a robbery.

For myself, and IMO the decent opinion of mankind, it is by 1000 times preferable to allow yourself to be robbed, than to have to kill someone to defend yourself. I would allow a burgular to take every possession rather than have to shoot him. Or risk myself or someone I cared about being shot.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

dksuddeth

better them than me comes to mind.

and stopping crime isn't the agenda, is it. why do anti gun people support letting the criminal do what they want?

thats a fallacy. banning guns in a city isn't going to make guns more expensive and as far as neither party being armed....I laugh in your general direction. In the absence of a gun, a criminal will use a knife or a club of some sort. But i guess the homeowner getting his head bashed in is much better than the criminal getting shot, right?

so when is the 'come in, i'm open' sign going up on your front lawn?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

james t kirk

Americans never cease to amaze me how they love their guns and ammo.

ziadel

I take this to mean you don't have a lot of self respect.

__________________
Ron Paul '08
Vote for Freedom
Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

Leto

that's an odd interpretation. I took it to mean that mere possessions are not worth the taking of a life. Regardless of the circumstances. Smacks of hubris.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Willravel

Self respect: due respect for oneself, one's character, and one's conduct.
Strange would not respect himself if he were to kill someone. I am the same way.

Is your self worth and respect built on your posessions, or is it on the way you live?

sprocket

I didnt assume anything, I was just curious, thats why i asked

__________________
Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

Strange Famous

And the UK has 200 gun deaths a year and the US has 10,000

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Strange Famous

And do I take it you have material things you value higher than taking someone life?

I own nothing that I would not lose 100 times before I killed someone for it. Please God it will always be this way

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Leto

with respect to material possessions. I am with you 100%. If it comes to self preservation of myself ormy family... I will be like a wolverine...

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I