dksuddeth

with the state senate and house assembly approving the personal protection act, it is left to Gov. Doyle if he will abide by the people of wisconsin and sign in to law this act which will allow wisconsin citizens the ability to carry concealed weapons or if he will continue to declare that the people of wisconsin are too immature and ignorant to be allowed to carry a handgun to provide for their own defense.

I certainly hope that with the governers VETO (which he promised he would do) that the senate and house override that veto and the voters remember Doyle's position next election cycle.

After that, we can work on the peoples socialist republic of illinois and run Blag and Daley out of office so the people of Illinois can defend themselves finally.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Toaster126

I couldn't quite figure out how you stand on the matter; could you please tell us?

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

Leto

defense against what?

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

dksuddeth

I am in full support of the PPA. I believe that all americans should have the ability to carry for self defense.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dksuddeth

you serious?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

kutulu

Being forced to carry openly does not equate to not being able to carry at all.

Poppinjay

I'm curious, do you think a person carrying a fully exposed sidearm is more likely to be mugged than a person carrying a tiny pistola in his pocket?

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

dksuddeth

there is nothing wrong with open carry, however, in wisconsin there is no state pre-emption so any locality can make open carry illegal within their jurisdiction for whatever reason and has been done in places like washington state for something as petty as 'alarming' the citizenry.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Leto

absolutely. dead serious.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

dksuddeth

I guess theres no crime in your part of wisconsin?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Poppinjay

There's crime in Wisconsin?

I go about DC without so much as a rusty can opener and feel safe.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Rekna

I'm not taking a position on this one but i'd like to know what the argument for carring a concealed vrs carring open is.

dksuddeth

congratulations to you. Most others in DC aren't as lucky, considering it was the number 2 murder capital of the nation in 2003.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dksuddeth

in wisconsin there is no state pre-emption so any locality can make open carry illegal within their jurisdiction for whatever reason and has been done in places like washington state for something as petty as 'alarming' the citizenry.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

As of 2000: there were 169 murders in Wisconsin. The population was about 5.4 million. Out of 50 states, Wisconsin was rated: 36 in murder, 47 in rape, 35 in robbery, 43 in assault, and 43 in burglery. (http://www.morganquitno.com/DANG00RANK.htm)
2003 CRIME RATE INDEX:

dksuddeth

Top Ten Murder Rates in 2002
The following chart shows the ranking for the top ten cities in murders per capita for 2002:

Top Ten Rankings for 2002
(cities over 500,000 population)

http://www.safestreetsdc.com/subpages/murdercap.html

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

Poppinjay was trying to tell you that even in somewhere where crime is at it's worst, it's really not that bad. I've been to D.C. many times and I've not once seen or been involved in a crime of any sort (except homelesness). In comparison to D.C., anywhere in Wisconsin is like paradise, as far as crime in concerned. Soooo, why do you need a gun again?

dksuddeth

as i've heard said before, I would rather have a gun and not need it then need a gun and not have it. while the murder rate in wisconsin may be low (I don't live there but used to live in Illinois) were I ever to move there I would like to have as much insurance as possible to make sure that I, or any of my family, become one of those few that are now statistics.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

Um, the concealed weapons can be used by criminals, too. This isn't trying to take your gun, or whatever yiou deem necessary to preotect your family, but it's taking away the danger of not knowing who is or isn't armed. If you have a gun in your house, in a drawer, then you can protect your family. If you're walking down the street and get mugged (which is basically unheard of in Wisconsin), who's to say a conceiled weapojn will work better than one that's out in the open? If guns are supposed to be a deterrant, then they should be out in the open, so as to deter. Concealied weapons are used for one thing, shooting someone who doesn't know you have a gun.

SecretMethod70

I don't have a solid opinion re: concealed carry (while I do have a solid opinion that one should be ABLE to carry, with proper licensing, training, etc), but I will say that open carry means a potential criminal KNOWS you do or do not have a gun, concealed carry means a potential criminal must wonder with every potential victim if that person has a gun or not.

That said, I'd also like to point out that I've lived in Chicago for about 5 years now and have not only not been involved in any crime, I have also not witnessed any crime nor do I know any person who has been involved in any crime. No, the statistics don't lie, but by applying a little common sense to where I'm going alone and/or at night, I have managed to stay quite safe in the fifth murderous city in the US

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Willravel

Also, the TARDIS is bullitproof. That helps.

I have considered the idea that because a criminal doesn't know if one is or isn't carrying a weapon, he or she might avoid robbery alltogether, but crime rates do not support this. There is still plenty of crime in places where you can conceal guns. Why? Because a criminal with proper and legaql owndership of a weapon can also legally conceal a gun. That's just not safe.

dksuddeth

Concealed weapons have two advantages over open carry. Open carry tends to alarm anti gun people. Many is the time in open carry states that the police have been called about 'man with a gun', usually embellished with 'waving it around'. So concealing the weapon removes the 'alarm' factor from those that seem to be afraid of them while making those who wish to prey upon others consider whether they should risk attacking someone who may be armed.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dksuddeth

Now, this can be a good argument ONLY IF you're intended criminal does NOT have any kind of felony record. For someone with a clean record to go through the legal process of applying, training, waiting period and background check, to get a handgun before he commits the crime seems a bit farfetched. Not impossible, but highly improbable, considering he can buy the gun illegally (which you wouldn't be able to stop anyway) and commit the crime in the same day.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Bill O'Rights

Time out! I'm gonna threadjack here, for just a moment.

So...there's more violent crime, per capita, in Nebraska than there is in New York? Even taking the population density into account...that just doesn't seem right somehow.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Willravel

But if it's legal to carry an exposed weapon, and you're not doing anything illegal or alarming (shooting children, waving it around at a gas station), then let people be alarmed by the mear sight of it. Hopefully anyone with ill intent will also be alarmed.
Yeah, it's not like we can take steps to deter illegal gun sales. It's much easier to arm every citizen.

StanT

It's a long stretch from a sentence written 200 years ago:
to right to carry a conceal weapons.

If the majority of people in Wisconsin, Illinois, and California (or their legally elected representatives) decide that concealed carry is a bad idea, why is it any of your business as a Texan?

I'm indifferent as hell to gun ownership. I won't own one and couldn't care less if you do. I live in Colorado where concealed carry is fairly common and previously lived for 40+ years in Illinois where it is difficult. I have never lived anywhere where I felt a need to carry a gun (I'd move if I did). I have never felt that owning a gun would make myself or my loved ones safer. I think it is sad that your environment is so much more dangerous than mine.

Does that speak more to my naiveté or your paranoia?

dksuddeth

that statistic includes property related crimes also.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

Good observation! I didn't notice that dksuddeth was from Texas. That explains a lot. I've gotten the same stuff from a lot of Texans about the San Francisco gun ban. I'm ure you're happy with your gun laws. We're happy with ours.

dksuddeth

In states that do NOT have pre-emption laws, local law enforcement can arrest you for just carrying it in a holster if someone calls 911.

should citizens not be allowed to defend themselves from criminals? why would you want to give the advantage to criminals and leave law abiding people defenseless against them?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dksuddeth

I was born and raised in Illinois and still have family there. So i'm concerned for them. On top of that, I'd like to be able to provide for my protection when I go to visit them.

If you wish to call me paranoid, go ahead, so long as if I ever need the weapon, I can have it.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Leto

i don't live in Wisconson, but rather in a metropolitan area of 5.2 million people. And I must confess that I have never seen a "crime" committed. I have lived here since 1986, continuously. To be sure there are crimes committed, it's always in the news, and also to be sure, innocent people often get victimized.

I just don't see how having a gun will stop a by stander from being a victim, unless there is a situation such as car jacking, or a bank hold up. If you are mugged, i would expect that by the time you "reach" you will either be popped, or pistol whipped.

And if i see a crime committed, I would more likely call the police, rather than pull a 'batman' with my weapon.

I am just surprised that it is an issue in a place like Wisconson.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Willravel

Don't strawman. I specifically said "it's legal to carry an exposed weapon", in other words, where it is lgal to carry a weapon.
How many justifiable homicides were there in the US last year? How many people have guns in their homes? The answers might surprise you.

dksuddeth

you should ALWAYS be aware of your surrounding environment.

So you'd just dial 911 then run away while someone gets beat to death?

Crime is an issue everywhere. What should be considered more threatening to you is that, legally, the police are not required or obligated to protect you personally. YOU are responsible for your own safety and protection. why would you not ensure that?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dksuddeth

It's no strawman. IT actually happens. In Glenview IL, a homeowner is facing a gun possession charge. The city has made ALL firearm possession ILLEGAL, yet when the homeowner shot at an individual who had broken in to his home, the homeowner was charged. THAT is insane. In certain locales in wisconsin open carry has been made illegal because people who are unaware of the legality of open carry call the police. That legally carrying individual COULD be arrested for causing a public disturbance at the minimum.

there is a real serious flaw with that argument. You're basically telling the entire country that because you're odds of being killed are so low, you don't deserve to protect yourself.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Leto

i agree. and i am.


a hypothetical situation. However, you are correct with respect to 911, but incorrect about running away. I think it is unfair of you to suggest something like that.

Like I said, I have never seen such an action, and I remind you I live in the downtown area. But if I did, i would call the police. This is what any citizen would do.

[IMG]

I agree. and I do take responsibility for my own safety (part of point 1 above) having a gun is not a guarrantee. In fact I would submit that it is more of a liability.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Willravel

So you'd be able to tell who was about to victimize you 100% of the time?
That's black and white thinking. One can dial 911, then try to interveine.
Having a gun is not ensurance of safety. It is ensurance of having a weapon, but there are no absolues as far as safety.

dksuddeth

and in that 90 seconds to 5 minutes that it takes an officer to respond to your call, what happens to that victim?


I disagree, with the liability. Is it a guarantee? no, but it improves your odds of surviving over not being armed.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

That is a case where someone broke the law. Not only did the man own a gun illegally, but he discharged it illegally. He should be prosecuted alongside of the person who was obviously guilty of breaking and entering. It's not insane, it's the law. What if I wanted to rape someone? What if I wanted to own slaves? I can't just do it because I think the laws are wrong. That's insane.
I can protect myself from crimes without a gun. Many Americans own guns. This helps to boost production fro gun companies, which makes guns more available for everyone, including criminals. I'm suggesting that gun hungry people are partially responsible for all gun crimes because of their unwillingness to back down from MAD.

dksuddeth

no, unless you have spidey sense, but you'd be more aware and have a better chance of responding if need be.

Would you jump in on a 5 on 1?

again, I've never said that having a gun will ensure your survival. It just increases the odds and thats better than being defenseless.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dksuddeth

It's insane to defend your home and family? please explain that logic?

I call bullshit. It is completely insane and illogical for anyone to tell me that I do not have the right to defend myself or my family. Absolutely ludicrous.

Tell me, how do you protect yourself from a home invasion without a gun?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."