Charlatan

I think if you look at most of us who actually are parents that have used BISS, we almost uniformly use it in the situation that raeanna describes:
What you are describing is an inflexible form of parenting that few of us would advocate.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Glory's Sun

I can understand using it when you've already explained something to a child. My whole thought process on this was it shouldn't be used the first time a child is told to do something. I still wouldn't like it after I was already given an explanation but I would have less reason to argue. Perhaps instead of saying "BISS" you could just say "I've already explained why" or "I've already given you the reason" and go from there. "BISS" just sounds so shitty.

maleficent

Why would it be permissible for a child to argue -- and I'm talking child not hormonal crazed obnoxious teenager -- be allowed to argue with a parent.

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Glory's Sun

it's not permissable.. I just like to argue.

like I said.. if an explanation has been given and the child doesn't ask a reasonable question after that.. then do what you feel is necessary.

Toaster126

Quoted for truth.

I think if you are want to do a good job at parenting, you should help your child learn the "why" of actions, not just that something needs to be done because an authority told them to.

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"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

tenchi069

I try to explain the reason for every rule. Sometimes "Because I said so" is the reason. I know we are talking semantics when i reword it, but sometimes rewording is what younger ears need to hear. To me, "Because I said so" often gets translated to "Because that is how I want it done" or very similarly, "Because I decided that is how it is."
This is how it was said to me as a child/adolecent and it worked for me, and seems to work for my stepson.

Sidenote, the head or heads of the house decide how things are, rules subject to change with or without notice, like it or lump it. When I spent some time after University to move home, I had to accept what my father and mother wanted.

To tell how I turned out from it, I am a strong believer in law, I don't back down from adversity, and I am very close to my family.

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ERROR- PLBSAK
Problem Lies Between Seat and Keyboard.

Jinn

gucci I really don't think you could have said it any better. I agree completely. There are those of us who believe that authority is earned through merit, and that everything, from power to knowledge, should be questioned. If you've failed to establish your authority by demonstrating you deserve it, then you don't get it. It's always been my fucking body and my mind, and I've will do what I want with it. Establishing that you have authority by showing me that you work 8 hours a day just so that I can enjoy my sucker.. thats legitimate authority. Veiling it in a threat of kicking me out.. that's bullshit.

I'm suddenly understanding why so many people lack critical thinking skills. Their shitty parents indoctrinated them early that asking questions when someone tells you to do something is evil. Yea, well I'll never subscribe to that belief, thank you.

And no, I don't mean to imply that those of you who do use BISS are shitty parents or any of the former, .. and as a matter of fact I think Charlatan's method is the most mature.

However, this thread makes me incredibly angry, espcially "Why should BISS not be a good enough answer?"

To me, we're talking in optimality. What's the BEST parenting method? Not BISS. Sucking at communcation is not a valid reason for BISS -- if you really mean

Then say it. Vagueness never helped anyone.

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ShaniFaye

I have a real problem trying to understand why a parent should earn the right to have authority over their child

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Jinn

Children are people too? I'm absolutely not comfortable relegating children to a sub-human position.

Authority, in its purest form, means giving someone else control over your physical and mental body or ability. I trust that their authority operates in my best interest, and I trust their judgement. I refuse to give anyone control over my physical or mental body without them first demonstrating that they're acting in my best interests, and that they've no secondary motives.

Why should children be second-class citizens?

(I understand that there are some decisions must make for their children, particularly at young age. My interest, however is at the age of 12+ -- why the "BISS" excuse should even be necessary. If your child is 12 and isn't mature enough to understand why you think something should be done without using "BISS," then I think you failed to educate your child at a young age).

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Seeker

There have been many times I have been tempted to use the "Because I said so" road. In such cases it has usually come out like this;

Because I am the parent, you are the child,
I am responsible for you and the way this house-hold runs,
When you are old enough you will move out and have your own house-hold and quite possibly, a family,
That is when you can decide how best to be responsible for yours.

Thankfully I have not had to use this too often, it's pretty much respected.

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cellophanedeity

Alright, I suppose I should have given the type of situation I meant.

I understand that by the age of 12, kids should understand why they must do certain things, such as household chores. "Your dad and I shouldn't be the only ones who work to keep the house pleasant" is generally sufficent.

My brother is fifteen and I'm nineteen. The problem is that when we question our parents, they do nothing to answer us. We don't even say "we're not doing this, we're not listening to you" we would (at least I would) just like to know their reasoning behind things.

For instance, last night my mum told my brother that he couldn't go play cards with his friends, even though he'd have a ride there and back. He asked why, and mum said "because I said so."

Or, mum places curfews on me. "Why does it matter if I'm home at 2:00 or 3:00 on a weekend?" "Because I said so."

It's more along those lines. There is no open communication or dialogue regarding our freedoms and responsibilities. That's the real problem.

ngdawg

That's obviously just throwing authority without reason. If one of my kids wants to go somewhere and they have it worked out, I don't argue the plans with BISS. I tell them, "I have no reason why not."
But, I do lean toward my father's doctrine when, as a teen, I said what a lousy democracy our home was: "This isn't a democracy, it's a dictatorship and guess who's in charge?"
All our lives, we will have to do things we don't want to do, but are demanded of us, whether through work, at home, whatever. It seems quite interesting that those who had the hardest time with parental authority as children are also, as adults now, many times have the most difficulty with the authority of work and the demands that just mere living places on them.
This, I think, is more a reflection on how that parental authority was meted out. Extremes either way don't do anyone any good.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

iblade

Young children do not need a reason to trust and obey their parents. They do it naturally, provided authority is implemented by the parents. I see everyday children who are 2 y.o. never doing what they are told, or parents explaining over and over again the same things: "Don't get close you'll get hurt." etc... At such a young age children should listen to their parents without needing a reason, and parents should not treat their children like they are adults.

Of course, for educationnal purposes, parents should explain, later on when children grow up, why they should do as they are told in such or such particular cases.

If the questionning of the child continues even after the initial explanation, it is only a form of defiance from the child to the parent. "Because I said so!" is only a way of reasserting the parent's authority, and is a very suitable answer...

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We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

Charlatan

To me that indicates either lazy parenting or a lack of imagination.

To use BISS in this case shows that your mother can't muster up a reason right now as to why she wants you home or your brother to now go play cards. She simply wants to control your activities and can't be bothered to give a reason.

With a little imagination she could have come up with an excuse that, while not neccessarily being the truth, could have satisfied your desire for an explaination.

In my mind, it comes down to control. She still sees both of you as her babies and can't let go. Emancipate yourself.

You are 19. 19! And while, yes, you are living under their roof, there really needs to be a shift in the power structure. You can (and should) follow her rules BUT, there has to be an acknowledgement that you are now an adult. You need to either negotiate some new rules or more out. Is she still giong to give you a curfew when you are 20? What about when you are 21?

My mother's rules where simple. If I was going to be out past midnight, just call her and let her know. That way she wouldn't be up all night worrying about me. I had this rule from about 17 onwards.

When I moved away for University I was 18. I moved back home that first summer. It was very difficult to submit to living in someone else's house. When I went back to school in the fall, I never moved home again.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Shadefire

Cello,
Yeah, BISS is BS when it comes to an adult still living at home. That I can agree with. Even my mother let me do whatever when I was living at home as an adult. All that she asked was help with the cleaning and that I was actively searching for a job if I wasn't gonna be in school.

So, if you don't follow all of her rules, like a curfew, is she the type of person who would actually kick you out?

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canuckguy

Wow, just wow at this thread! So much to say, so much to quote.....


Cello, in your situation, I would agree that BISS is not being used correctly. Your parents need to explain why and not just say no.


This thread is an example of what frustrates me sometimes. To me atleast it was clearly stated in this thread that BISS was only used after the parent had explained themselves multiple times why before using BISS. And that it was wrong to use BISS just because, without explaination. But yet people ignored this and argued that BISS is wrong to use without explaination, which everyone seems to agree on? odd


It is easiler to say BISS is wrong when you never been in the situation yourself. Kids can be annoying just to be annoying.

You wait until you've explained to your 8 yr old that he is too young for a gun 4.2 billion times. After explaining yourself why he is too young for gun for the millionth time, the kid is no longer asking you for an explaination, the kid is asking to annoy you and to hope you'll cave in. BISS is the only reason that kids needs at that time.

xepherys

With Brett, my 10-year old son, I've had to say this on occasion. I usually attempt an explanation if the situation fits. Sometimes, however, there either isn't time for one, or the reasoning may be beyond their grasp (a two year old doesn't understand most of the finer points of social graces). If I had to abruptly stop Brett from doing something, I'd usually ask "Do you know why I stopped you?" or something to that effect. More than half the time he KNEW what he was doing was wrong (when he was 2 or 3) but that's part of childhood at that age.. .pushing boundaries to see what you can do.

However, I think that "Do as I say, not as I do" and "Because I said so" are perfectly acceptable explanations to kids, and I will use them with my baby when he gets older (at 7 days old, there is no reasoning with them!!!). Frankly, it's a matter of respect. Having a military background, I firmly believe that sometimes the rules are the rules whether you know why or not, whether you like them or not, or even whether they are good or not. *shrug*

Catdaddy33

All kids have the job of exporing their boundries, and part of that is to rebel against authority, yes, I use to get BISS from my folks and I swore never to use it. Well, I do, but I understand why. Our most recent exchange with my now 12 year old daughter (today is her birthday)

Last Friday Night:

Me: It's 11, you need to get in bed (this is her known weekend bedtime)

Her: Why?

Me: Cause it's your bedtime

Her: Are you guys staying up?

Me: Yes, we're going to watch a movie

Her: Why can't I stay up since you guys are?

Me: BISS, now get in bed...

She KNOWS that its her bedtime, she is just prodding for a weak moment and hoping that we will let her stay up later, she needs no explanation of why she must go to bed at 11, she knows as it's been explained many times in the past (she'll sleep half the day if she goes to bed any later).

As for it just being used, cause the parent is to lazy to come up with a good excuse, that's a crock....

Charlatan

Catdaddy... you have just given a great example of having explained yourself many times in the past and using BISS as a short hand for, "I have explained to you that it is your bedtime, many times. You know you have to get up for school tomorrow and... etc." BISS sums all of that up nicely.

Where BISS would be misued in this case would be if you had never given an explaination in the first place.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Marvelous Marv

Bingo. On a trip to see family once, we bought my kid a blowgun. No, really.

The things are really cool. With a little practice, you can hit an object the size of an orange from across a large room.

The problem arose when he didn't want to let it out of his sight, meaning he wanted to carry it on the plane for our return flight. He was about 11, and he hauled out every negotiating tactic in the book. After a few minutes of discussion, my answer was BISS.

On the other hand, I have observed my wife debate with the kid literally for hours, over something like my kid's desire not to get a shot from the doctor. Whose mind do you think is going to get changed in that scenario?

Throughout my parenting years, I've explained things once, maybe twice, and if it was a black and white decision, the third time was BISS. What was really idiotic was that my wife would argue, reason, or whatever, a situation like the shot, and then come to me and tell me I needed to inform the kid that he WOULD be getting a shot. My response, not that it did any good, was "So why did you waste the last hour debating this?" Then I'd tell the kid, he'd walk off muttering, and he'd go get the shot.

Oh, an example of one thing I do that they probably hate worse than BISS.

Kid: My friend wants to sell me his non-running car for $100.
Me: Bad idea. You don't have the money to fix it.

Kid: But it's a great deal!
Me: No it isn't. You're not doing it.

Kid: Why? (Note: I've already answered that.)

Me: I've already told you. Now you can sit here and argue for the next hour if you want, but the answer is still going to be no. How much time do you plan to keep wasting?

Note to Jinn and Gucci: If you'd behaved in my house as you've related, you would certainly have moved out at the earliest opportunity, because there is no way I'd pay the bills for a kid like either of you. Those eighteen years would certainly seem like a long time, since you wouldn't be able to afford any music, and your only shoes would be saddle oxfords.

He who has the gold makes the rules.

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MSD

The way most of you explain it, it should be replaced with, "I already explained it." For the rest of situations, all it's going to do is either teach them to resent authoriy, or worse, to blindly obey orders without any consideration of the reasoning. xephrys' question of, "Do you know why ..." is also a much better solution. At the bare minimum, a child should know the logic behind a rule, even if they won't agree with it.

I've also tended to view "my house, my rules" as a pretty lame excuse if not backed up with reasoning, mainly due to my mother's insistence of having three-hour shouting matches with my brother (age 17) every Sunday before dragging him to church with empty threats of an even bigger set of severe consequences each week (I think the worst was the threat of being forced to sleep outside in a hammock in a rainstorm for a few days, with a bar of soap so he could bathe with the hose.*) She still barely accepts the fact that he's an atheist and didn't respond well to years of brainwashing.



* - I suggested this just to see if she would actually say it

Catdaddy33

BISS closes the conversation as there is no way for a response. If I say that "I've explained it.." that leaves it open for that wonderful "child-memory-lapse-syndrome".. Where she says "explained what?" then I get to repeat what has been said every weekend for the past ___ years....

I don't use BISS a lot, but I do use it for those special situations