Berrum

In a universe without an omnipotent god, without souls, spirits and anything divine, can anything be random at all? Try to create an example!

For example, rolling a dice is not random by nature, it is simply beyond our minds (and computers) to predict its outcome, making it in effect random to us for practical reasons.

aKula

In quantum mechanics it is only possible to find the probability of where a photon or electron will strike. The distance of an electron from the nucleus is also modelled with a probabilty density function and cannot be predicted exactly. When a single nucleus will decay is also random we can only say that half of a large number of nulcei will have decayed.
So with our current understanding of physics, yes things can be random.

Silvy

Ah yes...

Note: I use "system" as a way of describing the known Universe and it's set of laws which everything must abide to.

Yes, randomness exists.

But:
Everything in our "system" behaves in accordance with a set of rules (a lot of which we haven't defined yet, but still). Electric signals in your brain would create specific predictable results if we could only detect everything there is to know about the state of your brain.
(In essence I believe the brain is a machine with input signals, output signals and a state. input signals influence the state of the machine, and the state in combination with the input signals define the output signals.)
The actions of every non-living thing can be predicted as long as you know enough about it (laws of physics and such). And, supposing the above "brain is a machine" statement is true, so can the actions of living things.
This means that anything we can detect has predictable behaviour, as long as we know enough.

So how do I claim randomness exists?

Thing is, we will never be able to gather enough information about the state of the universe to determine what will happen. Things influence each other in too many different ways and often too small to detect, but not too small to have effect. Lighting up a match releases heat making the temperature rise. This rise in temperature is global. It's effects could never be measured over any long distance but it is true.

In addition there are things we cannot know. Background radiation from space (created during the Big Bang) influences life on earth, but we cannot predict it, because it needs to get here first before we can now about it. (this is reffered to as something like "our sensory horizon", we can only know about things which are located within X-lightyears, where X is the age of the universe).

The randomness that we as humans percieve is the effect of things we have insufficient knowledge about. This includes too-subtle-to-detect influences of regular events, and things beyond our detection range.

Is that true randomness?

No, but we can't detect the difference.
Wether it is true randomness or not is only of use to an omnipotent god. As that god is the only one able to know the difference (within our "system").

The omnipotent god can introduce true randomness into our "system" only if, he/she/it is itself truly random. For if not, and that god is subjected to a set of (different) rules like we humans are, then he/she/it cannot give truly random inputs into our "system" and there for cannot create truly random events in our system.

As far as I'm concerned true randomness does not exist, but there are things "random enough" to be considered random for all practical purposes.
(like digital encryption methods)

__________________
"Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles which every man of every faith can embrace. "
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Berrum

As stated in my original question, things that we cannot at present (or ever) predict arent truely random simply because we cant grasp the governing principles or analyse or even measure the near infinite amounts of data involved.

The roll of a dice is as complex as human thought when considering it from a basic natural point of view, both are affected by a vast amounts of highly complex systems.

It has to be something totally random by nature, and i dont think such an example exists. The way an electron moves is not random, even if youd need to consider every other particle in the universe that ever existed since big bang and all their characteristics, it seems very likely that it can be predicted in theory, if never in practise.

The usefulness of determining if randomness can exist has use not only to a god, but also to consider if free will can exist without a god.

Silvy

Indeed, like I said, I do not believe true randomness exists.

However I cannot conclude that free will doesn't exist yet.
This would depend (I think) on the definitions of "free will" and "individual" vs "environment".

But to get back on topic, no examples from me.

__________________
"Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles which every man of every faith can embrace. "
- Murphy MacManus (Boondock Saints)

jonjon42

"god does not play dice with the universe"

I believe that there is a method in all the madness of the universe, no proof, just a hunch...
I will work on proving it though :P We'll get back to this in about 15 years or so for a status report

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A damn dirty hippie without the dirty part....

spongy

1. Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: random movements. See Synonyms at chance.
2. Mathematics & Statistics. Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution.
3. Of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely, as in the testing of a blood sample for the presence of a substance.

That is dictioary.com's definition or random. Do you have another to use? Because the way I read it flipping a coin is for all intents and purposes a truly random event. To say
"
For example, rolling a dice is not random by nature, it is simply beyond our minds (and computers) to predict its outcome, making it in effect random to us for practical reasons." means that anything we post could be naysaid ( is that a word) using that logic.

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pan6467

Does Randomness exist? probably..... but can perfect randomness exist is the question.... and I don't believe it can I believe even randomness has a greater pattern to it and therefore on a small basis such as a die roll..... it exists, but as the universe exists .... no.

One of my favorite Einstein quotes (not exactly a perfect quote but very close).... "The universe is so perfectly random that it proves there is something that created it."

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

duck0987

If true randomness does exist I do not believe that it could actually be observed, because by our observation of the phenomenon we would be influencing the system, thus the system would cease to be random.

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irateplatypus

the question of the toothpaste concerning random sequences flies in the phone book of young potatoes.

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~ Winston Churchill

Suave

Our observation of that particular event is also random and influences it in a random way, keeping its randomness. Mayhap everything in the universe, including ourselves and our actions, is random, and we are simply good at predicting certain random phenomena, but not others.

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duck0987

But for scientific observation of any type a outside and controlled change by the observer must be applied. The only place where I think randomness may truely exist is at the quantum level, but this is more of a probabilty game than a random in nature.

At any point a hydrogen atom's electon can be found at any point, but after several thousand observations it will appear in one area more than others so one observation would appear to be random, but overtime a patarn begins to build.

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"I've got a lot of friends who don't know how to cook, which I could never understand because not knowing how to cook is like not knowing how to fuck." --Robert Rodriguez

cybersharp

Of course, I mean think about the chaos theory that nothing can happen the exactly the same way twice... Its scientific yet not totaly reliable making even that random... that said.... I would say that randomness is simply the end equation of not knowing all equations in the first place, after all. If you know every action and reaction then there could be no randomness could there?

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0PtIcAl

zen_tom

In answer to the question, I say no - perfect randomness cannot exist - everything must have a cause and effect. But I don't see that having an effect on free will or any greater questions because I'm comfortable with the understanding that even while, perfect randomness can't exist, <i>apparent</i> randomness <i>must</i> exist for anyone paying attention (i.e. life)

We can try to push the boundaries of our understanding and sensitivity, in order to limit the amount of randomness that we accept in our lives, but no matter how far we push those boundaries, things will always have been caused by other things, and be subject to the laws of physics (whatever they may be)

xepherys

1) How is rolling dice not random? I need to know your view on this before I can answer in a way that fits the argument.

2) Why does the existance, or lack thereof, of an omnipotent god make a difference whther true randomness exists?

3) One post mentions cause and effect. How does cause and effect not allow for randomness? It could be argues that false-random, such as a computers random which is seeded is not truly random, and therefore the cause (seed) creates the response. However, the effect of something has no bearing on whether or not the initial event was random. Therefore that statement, for accuracy's sake, should read that anything with a specific cause cannot be random. To further that end, what constitutes a cause?

zen_tom

xepherys, I guess it's not random because if you built a robot just so, that could roll a dice of precise proportions, onto a surface exactly thus, you might be able to predict the outcome of any given throw (either by conducting lots of experiments, or by calculating the trajectory, bounce height and rotation of the die as it hits the surface)

We think of dice-rolls as being random because we normally aren't able to throw with that kind of precision, and because small variations in initial conditions propagate into large variations in eventual outcomes (loosing $1000 on 'snake-eyes') we consider it to be random.

The existence or otherwise of an omnipotent God doesn't hang with the concept of randomness, because for something to be random, it would have to surprise God as well, which, He being omnipotent, is likely to be tricky.

As for cause and effect, if every event has a cause (which I suppose they do), you'd have to go all the way back to the beginning of time and the universe to find an event that occurred spontaneously.

As said before, I don't see a problem with false-random, or pseudo randomness being labelled as 'random' - none of us are capable (or ever will be) of 100% accurate prediction of the future, and as such, will always be open to surprise.

xepherys

I mostly agree, but let me play devil's advocate a couple of times.

I agree with the "if you built a robot", but if randomness is described as a lack of predictability, then surely the roll of a die can be random. Change your example a bit. Pick up a six-sided die and cup it inside of both of your hands so you cannot see it. Shake it around and toss it to the ground. Since there is no knowledge if the initial lay of the die, nor it's lay before being tossed, there is no way to accurately predict it's outcome (despite vibration or trajectory) and therefore, to our human sensibility, it's random.

The flip side then is the omnipotent being vs. existence of randomness. If a being is omnipotent, why is there an assumption that random > omnipotent rather than omnipotent > random?

The two above arguments, to some degree, cancel each other out. If it's a matter of perception, than randomness can exist. If an omnipotent being rules out randomness, and such a being exists, it's still only our perception that tells us that random > omnipotence, and that the one naturally excludes the other. Either way, it's a human perception call and can easily be shown either way.

As a sidenote, I would assume that an omnipotent being would be outside of the realm of randomness. By the lines fo the above arguments, it could be said that because we perceive time, god cannot exist because god would have to be outside of time (being omnipresent). Is time > omnipresence or is omnipresence > time?

Berrum

Xepherys: the thread about randomness wasnt for it its own purpose, but important to some ideas in this thread: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...t=93055&page=2

I think it explains what you wanted to know and why something that is in effect random to us doesnt qualify. (2nd page).

asaris

I don't see why, for something to be random, it would have to surprise God. Don't the same objections apply as to saying that the existence of God is incompatible with the existence of free will?

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"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

zen_tom

I'm assuming that the universe consists of cause and effect, and that God knows all the causes and all the effects. It's a question of computability - otherwise, there must be some magic that makes things occur without normal regard to the laws of nature.

genuinegirly

Randomness...
now htat's a good question.
I need to think on this one some more but I think that randomness is a possibility in a world without a god. Because I see that randomness isn't a reality in a world with a supreme being. A roll of the dice is predictable to someone who knows all of the factors. But in a world without a supreme being, who can know every factor?

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xepherys

Maybe nobody knows every factor, but if amongst all people all factors are known, would it still count as random?

zen_tom

Wait a minute, we're getting side tracked here. I think the question boils down to two choices, Soft Randomness and Hard Randomness

Where Soft Randomness states that Something is random if it is unpredictable under normal circumstances
and
Hard Randomness states that something can only be truely random if it is unpredictable under ANY circumstances.

Where 'circumstances' are the practicalities/possibilities of gathering all the bits of information necessary to determine what something is going to do.

I think it's reasonable to place things like dice rolls, roulette spins and coin tosses in the soft category, and other things like quantum behaviours into the hard category. Though I would argue (from a point of faith rather than anything concrete) that even the quantum world might operate on the 'hidden variable' principle, nudging even that back into the soft category.

GMontag

Hidden variables in Quantum Mechanics have been ruled out by things like Bell's Inequalities. Quantum scale phenomena such as radioactive decay are truely random and causeless.

zen_tom

They have not been ruled out by Bell's Inequalities - yes, they and locality have been shown to be mutually inconsitant, but locality itself is having difficulty standing up to close scrutiny.

In fact, all Bell's Theorum does in practice is replace 'hidden variables' with the equally magical 'quantum entanglement' - there is still a cause and effect, and we're still unable to see it. What's the difference (with respect to this discussion and the nature of randomness) between hidden variables and quantum entanglement?

genuinegirly

But if no one puts all the factors together, it will gain nothing.

Aside from that, with all this talk of quantum mechanics I'm afraid I can't follow. Oh well, have a blast with the debate.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

hrandani

As a side note, my single biggest pet peeve is the overuse of the word random by people speaking of inane happenings during their day. "Oh, you know what was so RANDOM today?" When in fact, it was quite likely their ex-boyfriend was going to call after 3 years given the vast range of things that could have happened.

Had they in fact, proferred that a black hole had zipped through the universe colliding with Earth in a precise fashion completely unnoticed by anyone except for the small fact that it prevented their drying machine cycle from finishing (somehow taking yet another sock along with it)...

That would be random.

ElvenDestiny

When looking at the idea of whether or not randomness exists I look at it this way and in many of my long sleepless nights this is the answer I came up with this type of question.

And for anyone who reads my journal or other posts you will find this also contradicts my own idea with religion lol. (But I believe that’s the point of evening having an idea, to weight it in against all others)

For the sake of argument imagine if you can a room about 20 ft x 20 ft.

(Even though this would probably be physically impossible for a human to do bear with me)
In every possible location on the room’s floor set down a domino, in my thoughts I estimated this would probably take about 10,000 dominos if not more lol.

Now here you have a representation of existence, there is no way anyone would be able to tell exactly where these dominos will drop or if any will be left standing as they go.

Now what you do not have is a governing force to start the cycle, that’s where religion comes in (playing the hand of some type of deity) and you push the first domino.

I believe a lot of people look at this governing force as the big bang theory, as the theory is very much unknown to me cause I haven’t read it, and what I do know of it makes it kind of hard for me to believe that all of existence started because something exploded, but I guess it’s a possibility. (And I maybe mislead with my knowledge of this theory)

Immediately after pushing the first domino the cycle will begin, one domino dropping after another and since there is so many there is no set path, and there is no way to tell what way the force will travel.

This kind of goes along with the idea others have stated that we may never know whether or not true randomness exists because there are too many possibilities to look at and everything is so vast that it would be impossible to look at all these possibilities.

Also you have to factor in that we do have free will, whether or not anyone else agrees I am stating my opinion here and in it we do have free will lol. So at any given moment (since taking into consideration the domino’s represent everything in existence) one of those dominos could step out of the way of the oncoming force and not be knocked down. Of course there is no way for the domino to know the outcome because its randomness by moving he may have done what he exactly tried to prevent and in doing so could have caused his own toppling.

(I’m also picturing someone walking behind the domino’s setting them all back up kind of like an idea of reincarnation or whatever you want. lol) but both of these last two things are a little off topic.

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A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality.
A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away.

ElvenDestiny

Hrandani I would have to agree the latter you stated doesn’t sound vary random. But would you be inclined to say this wasn’t random?

Your walking down the street and you happen to approach a tree, for whatever reason you stand near it for a minute, maybe your lighting a smoke, maybe your adjusting whatever your holding, maybe you've decided you want to hug it, you dictate that part lol. Anyway, so you stand there just long enough for a person not paying attention to toss a bucket of water out of the window right on top of your head, and you get drenched.

Is this randomness in your eyes? Or did something else dictate that whole event? Obviously it’s impossible to really tell because there are other factors to take into consideration, but in your eyes, was it randomness?

Also with your first statement of the girls boyfriend calling not being random, there’s other possibilities you have to take into consideration there too, Id find it pretty random if my x girlfriend of 3 years ago called me to day but only if she had died 3 years ago.

__________________

A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality.
A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away.

xepherys

Okay, I think I see what you're saying about soft/hard randomness. But I don't believe I agree per se.

Weather, I believe, is at least partly random in so much as it is dictated by chaotic motion. While chaotic motion must be 'sensitive to initial conditions' as says chaos theory, those conditions vary, and are difficult, at best, to determine. Aside from that, ongoing conditions change drastically, and with any imaginable human creation, it would be unreasonable to assume we could measure existing weather, human movement, spontaneous pollution, butterfly effect, atomic motion, cosmic rays and every other single possible variable that would be required to know exactly where any given rain drop may fall. Is there a pre-determine factor? Well, not exactly... there are millions. Part of those factors are due to human influence which, if free will exists, cannot be predicted.

Also note that I don't believe any of the above prove the existance of or non-existance of any ethereal, omnipotent or omniscient beings.

ElvenDestiny

One thing the probably bothers me a lot with the quarrel between science and religion is just that religion (more so the christian paths) are so worried that science is trying to prove them wrong. Where as some scientist maybe trying to do just that science IMO sits more in a position of like "ok so what if god started it all we don’t care about that, we want to know everything from the moment god pushes the button to now how it all took place."

If you look at it logically even if every possibility was considered, Even if someone could possibly live long enough to in every second of his life factor in these millions of possibilities what would his ending result be? Would it be "Ok the big bang did this, it sent out millions of pieces of dirt that spread across the universe, after millions of factors taken into consideration two of them collided together and each start to spin, they spun so fast and furiously that they traveled all around the newly created universe and picked up other of the displaced pieces of dirt and started to become larger, eventually other pieces of dirt effected by this movement set into place, at some point after millions of more factors this piece of dirt bounced off that piece of dirt and sent it spinning so fast it heated up into a ball of fire, which in turn pulled more pieces of dirt that have become enlarged to it and started spinning them around in the cycle thus creating our solar system.

Then as the world spun (yet another million factors come into play) an electromagnetic field began to stir from whatever movement and between it and the heat from the newly made sun and all the other millions of factors now taken into consideration, elements have now been created, now after a million more factors taken into consideration life has been created. Now Billions of years later each moment of existence a million other factors considered life is, as we know it.

What have we accomplished? A wasted life to explain something that half the people of the world will not understand. What else? Nothing, still remains what caused the big bang? Can that be proven to have existed? No. Why cause no one was there to see it, it happened so long ago how could we even believe we can determine 1) whether or not it happened or 2) what dictated it happening.

I apologize for my abundance of lamin terms and babbling in that statement lol.

__________________

A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality.
A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away.

zen_tom

Elven, what have we accomplished? If we are able to determine what processes created the universe, we are then better able to see and understand those processes happening across the galaxy and perhaps one day stand a greater chance of finding either a planet that might sustain us long after our own one fizzles out, or even, a place where another race of intelligent life might have sprung into existance. Those two laudable goals aside, it's just our nature - and must be in the nature of intelligent, technology capable life.

Finding out the methods by which nature operates allows you better control and prediction over nature. No we might not be able to work out exactly, nor proove one way or another what caused the big bang, but the process of trying to find out will bring us (and has already brought us) all sorts of practical and applicable knowledge in the meantime.

ElvenDestiny

My.. What have we accomplished, was more from a religious aspect not really meant to minimize what science as discovered and I apologies that it sounded that way, I'm very happy at what we have discovered so far, but im more of a sitting in the present and looking into our past, I could personally care less about what the universe holds im a simple person Plus what the future holds, well judging by what we have done to our planet thus far, it doesn’t hold must to be excited about.

__________________

A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality.
A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away.

Berrum

Not really. i lose TONS of socks that way, i swear it!

florida0214

Very bad example. There have been people who have been able to manipulate dice. They can make the dice to produce a desired effect. I saw it on the history Channel so it has to be real. It was on the breaking vegas program. really good show. However I do not think that anything is random or things such as luck exist. there is a reason for everything. Every action has an equal and opposite re-action. a plan is behind everything.
Think about it if things were tuly randon it would mean that things happen for no reason therefore nothing is your fault and you are responsible for nothing we simply are always in the right place and the right time or vice versa. Peace and happiness you all.

zen_tom

Just out of interest, what's wrong with that? It sounds reasonable to me (with some clarifications on the nature of 'responsibility')

xepherys

So for anything to be truly random, EVERYTHING must be truly random? That means our actions are random and therefore we do NOT have free will. I don't believe that to be the case.

florida0214

that is good. very good. I truly do not know how to respond to that. WE do have free will at least I think. however i believe somebody or somethign knows the outcome of all our choices. Does that make any sense.

ElvenDestiny

IDK my opinion has always been for as long as I can remember thinking about it that we do have free will and that the universe is only structured to a point.

But instead of looking at the whole universe look simply here at were we live.

Our world was once balanced; it had a perfect cycle to life and existence, since the dawn of technology that cycle has slowly been destroyed.

Was it meant to happen like that? Was the human race meant to slowly destroy the world?

I would like to think that we could blame it on our ignorance and stubbornness.

We have become a culture who needs material things and without stuff we would surely parish, nature is distant and unknown to us.

At some point in time even humans worked with nature in a peaceful cycle, though there was still war as far back as we can recall, the war that one tribe fought against another still held the cycle. There were unwritten and unspoken rules to these wars.

And yes for the better in some cases our technology has done a world of things to save and help people, but for as many good things it has done it has done just as many bad things.

It’s hard for me to believe that there is something dictating the actions and choices people make in life, if randomness doesn’t exist than neither does choices.

I cannot possibly see how a higher power of some sort decided that the human race would destroy the world created for them, if in fact a higher power did it.

If it wasn’t a higher power than how could randomness not exist what other governing forces but a higher power could make things have a set path and foresee the written path of everything in existence?

Of course a debate one whether or not randomness exists can go on forever because there is a lot that proves both arguments, and no one knows for sure and we may never know.

So in the end all we can really do is rely on our own instincts, what makes you feel safe at night? Is it that someone is watching over you and have a path set out for you so that you are reassured that your existence is not a wasted one? Or is it that we all have free will and randomness in our life and our choices in life really matter because there is no way to know where you are going or what is coming? I prefer the second personally, I like to think that our own destruction is caused by us an no one else is to blame, I like to think that no one is truly judging my actions, and my actions only affect what they appear to affect and do not in actuality touch the that of a higher power.

__________________

A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality.
A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away.

xepherys

We are a part of that cycle. The balance was never perfect. It was never a circle. It was ovoid... oblong... weighted. The ice age is a perfect example of that. The atmospheric and oceanic conditions moved along until a breaking point, the ice age hit, reset it and over we started. Anything a human makes is natural as we are part of nature. Us building a house is no different, in all logical sensibility, than a bird building a nest. Us puffing smoke out of a factory is no different that a cow letting loose litres of methane. This is true in the same sense that there really can be no such thing as "supernatural". Everything that is real and exists is natural.

As a side note, if you believe in free will, how can you then ask if something was "meant to happen"? Those two things counter each other in most logical processes.