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Silvy · 09-03-2005, 03:46 AM

Ah yes...

Note: I use "system" as a way of describing the known Universe and it's set of laws which everything must abide to.

Yes, randomness exists.

But:
Everything in our "system" behaves in accordance with a set of rules (a lot of which we haven't defined yet, but still). Electric signals in your brain would create specific predictable results if we could only detect everything there is to know about the state of your brain.
(In essence I believe the brain is a machine with input signals, output signals and a state. input signals influence the state of the machine, and the state in combination with the input signals define the output signals.)
The actions of every non-living thing can be predicted as long as you know enough about it (laws of physics and such). And, supposing the above "brain is a machine" statement is true, so can the actions of living things.
This means that anything we can detect has predictable behaviour, as long as we know enough.

So how do I claim randomness exists?

Thing is, we will never be able to gather enough information about the state of the universe to determine what will happen. Things influence each other in too many different ways and often too small to detect, but not too small to have effect. Lighting up a match releases heat making the temperature rise. This rise in temperature is global. It's effects could never be measured over any long distance but it is true.

In addition there are things we cannot know. Background radiation from space (created during the Big Bang) influences life on earth, but we cannot predict it, because it needs to get here first before we can now about it. (this is reffered to as something like "our sensory horizon", we can only know about things which are located within X-lightyears, where X is the age of the universe).

The randomness that we as humans percieve is the effect of things we have insufficient knowledge about. This includes too-subtle-to-detect influences of regular events, and things beyond our detection range.

Is that true randomness?

No, but we can't detect the difference.
Wether it is true randomness or not is only of use to an omnipotent god. As that god is the only one able to know the difference (within our "system").

The omnipotent god can introduce true randomness into our "system" only if, he/she/it is itself truly random. For if not, and that god is subjected to a set of (different) rules like we humans are, then he/she/it cannot give truly random inputs into our "system" and there for cannot create truly random events in our system.

As far as I'm concerned true randomness does not exist, but there are things "random enough" to be considered random for all practical purposes.
(like digital encryption methods)

09-03-2005, 03:46 AM	#3 (permalink)
Silvy paranoid Location: The Netherlands	Ah yes... Note: I use "system" as a way of describing the known Universe and it's set of laws which everything must abide to. Yes, randomness exists. But: Everything in our "system" behaves in accordance with a set of rules (a lot of which we haven't defined yet, but still). Electric signals in your brain would create specific predictable results if we could only detect everything there is to know about the state of your brain. (In essence I believe the brain is a machine with input signals, output signals and a state. input signals influence the state of the machine, and the state in combination with the input signals define the output signals.) The actions of every non-living thing can be predicted as long as you know enough about it (laws of physics and such). And, supposing the above "brain is a machine" statement is true, so can the actions of living things. This means that anything we can detect has predictable behaviour, as long as we know enough. So how do I claim randomness exists? Thing is, we will never be able to gather enough information about the state of the universe to determine what will happen. Things influence each other in too many different ways and often too small to detect, but not too small to have effect. Lighting up a match releases heat making the temperature rise. This rise in temperature is global. It's effects could never be measured over any long distance but it is true. In addition there are things we cannot know. Background radiation from space (created during the Big Bang) influences life on earth, but we cannot predict it, because it needs to get here first before we can now about it. (this is reffered to as something like "our sensory horizon", we can only know about things which are located within X-lightyears, where X is the age of the universe). The randomness that we as humans percieve is the effect of things we have insufficient knowledge about. This includes too-subtle-to-detect influences of regular events, and things beyond our detection range. Is that true randomness? No, but we can't detect the difference. Wether it is true randomness or not is only of use to an omnipotent god. As that god is the only one able to know the difference (within our "system"). The omnipotent god can introduce true randomness into our "system" only if, he/she/it is itself truly random. For if not, and that god is subjected to a set of (different) rules like we humans are, then he/she/it cannot give truly random inputs into our "system" and there for cannot create truly random events in our system. As far as I'm concerned true randomness does not exist, but there are things "random enough" to be considered random for all practical purposes. (like digital encryption methods) __________________ "Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles which every man of every faith can embrace. " - Murphy MacManus (Boondock Saints)