Catmandu

The background... I have a daughter who just finished her freshman year in high school. She's an advanced student. She hates math, and just got a 'C' in Advanced Algebra ('A's in everything else). Where math is involved, she does just enough to get by. She and my wife have been away on vacation for the last 3 weeks, so I had to call them and tell the news about the grades. My wife's initial reaction was to make my daughter take the class again. My thought was that she didn't flunk, and that maybe this would be a wake-up call. I was thinking that she should be allowed to advance, if the teacher thought she could handle it.

What do you guys think? I usually rely on my wife for decisions like this, due to her being a teacher and administrator. However, re-taking a class can be a very traumatic experience in high school. It's possible that my daughter was just in over her head. Any thoughts?

la petite moi

I would say that she should retake the class. It isn't traumatic, at all. My first semester of high school, I was in advanced Algebra 2. I got a D in it because I didn't understand anything! The second semester, I dropped to Algebra 1, and I ended up getting an A, I think.

Another story: My junior year of HS, I took two semesters of Geometry. I did very poorly- I got a C both semesters. Mostly, this was because I didn't pay attention enough. I ended up retaking it during the summer, and I got two As. I was very proud of myself, and the class was much easier since I had taken it before AND because it was the only class I was doing during the summer!

If your daughter is planning on going to a good university, she should retake the class. Even if she isn't, a C in high school is like a D or F in college- it's just not good, even if it IS considered "passing." Also, if she is an advanced student who "likes" to get good grades, she most likely would feel worse keeping the C on her transcript than retaking the class during the summer.

I would say take my advice on this matter, because I just graduated high school last year, and it sounds like I was very much like your daughter my freshman year.

The Magic

Do not make her retake the class.

Just because she got a C does not mean she won't be able to handle the next class.

First, check and see if you can find out if she was turning in all her homework and projects. I assume if she got a C (and is able to get As in all other classes) her problem is beyond not being a math person. To do well she will have to be completing every assignment (and no bsing on them, a lot of times students are able to just show some random work and give a random answer and get points for their homework because they "tried"). Not doing the homework for a math class can seriously stifle progression (much more than other classes).

Catmandu

You see? This is why I asked the question. Very different responses, both of which outline the exact issue. I'm glad to hear that retaking a class is not that big a deal. I won't worry about that any more. So I guess the issue is getting a true indicator of whether she learned enough.

la petite moi

Algebra is definitely something that one should get under his/her belt before moving on. Every class you take after Algebra is BASED on Algebra. If she doesn't learn it now, she will struggle throughout her math career. I took a college course just this spring, and I was SO happy that I learned Algebra well, because I was one of a few that wasn't struggling to understand Finite Math due to a lack of basic Algebra understanding. Although HS points are based a LOT on homework, etc., you should seriously think into getting her signed up for a summer school class. Barely passing should not be acceptable, especially for a girl of her capacity!

Tell her she can ask me for help! (I was an Algebra tutour a couple years ago.)

maleficent

The question I would have for your daughter is why does she hate math? Is it because it's hard, or she doesn't understand it? Or does she not see the use for it? It could also be the teacher... I was a math major in college, I had one class in college that I completely tanked on - -I talked the professor into giving me a withdraw passing (to save my GPA) the day before the final because I think I had on average a 35 in the class. I retook the class the next semester with a differnt professor and it all became clear... Not because I took it the second time, but because the second time it was taught differently, in a way that made sense to me.

Algerbra is the easiest of all the math levels.. it only gets harder and each year builds on the next year you migh want to ask her what she wants to do... and if she thinks she's ready to go on to the next level.

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la petite moi

mal, I hated math all throughout high school. During high school, I would never have been able to tell you WHY I hated it so much, but now that I look back...I would have to say that I hated math due to the challenge it presented me. In high school, I was like Catmandu's daughter- Very good grades, advanced student, etc. However, math was a true challenge, and I actually had to DO my homework (which is tedious, as you know); whereas, with my other classes, I just had to basically sit on my duff and get a good grade.

Like mal said, though, you should talk to your daughter. Communication is the key to understanding any situation.

Sage

I say figure out why she got the bad grade, and then go from there. If it was because she didn't understand what was being taught, then have her re-take the class and make sure she's understand everything. I was always pretty bad at math in high school- it took me three weeks to just understand the Unit Circle in Trig. Apparently, there's been a study done (according to Martel who can't remember where he saw it) that girls reach a certian point in school, around freshman year of HS, where they decide if they're good or bad at math, and this attitude affects all the math classes they have after that point. So your daughter might have just decided she's not good at math. Anyway, get her help- she will be happy with the good grade, and with the math knowledge she's got under her belt!

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Catmandu

I think we'll be having a family discussion in a couple of nights. It's hard on my kid, cuz she always thinks we're ganging up on her. But somehow we need to find out where she stands. She's an artsy-fartsy type, so I guess she's one of those teenagers you guys mentioned that decided she doesn't need math. This is hard for my wife and I because we are both very strong in our math skills, and enjoyed the challenge of the classwork.

I am going to print all of this out and discuss it with my wife. I seriously appreciate all of the comments and suggestions. It will be a huge help.

vanblah

Have you asked your daughter what she thinks? Maybe she'll want to re-take the class. If she doesn't, then you should let her know why you want her to. Or rather her mother, since she's the one who seems to want this.

If she's an advanced student then she'll understand the reasons for re-taking a class.

la petite moi

If you want, I could talk to your daughter about it. Sounds like she and I are alike in a lot of ways!

shakran

I almost wonder if your daughter doesn't hate math because of its rigidity. When I was a little kid I loved math because my dad is a freaking math genius and he used to teach me all sorts of cool stuff. I learned a ton of interesting shortcuts for various stuff. But then I hit "real" math (higher than arithmatic) and the teachers expected you to not only get the answer right, but they wanted you to do it in a specific way. Even if you had a way that gave you the right answer every time, they'd docks you because you didn't do it THEIR way. That's guaranteed to piss off anyone who doesn't blindly follow whoever's in charge. I remember a furious argument about 48 squared. She wanted me to do 48x48, which was a needless step. My method was a neat shortcut that works every time, but she'd have none of it, and gave me an F. Crap like that turned me off of math for a VERY long time.

I would certainly not make her retake the class, especially if she hates math because of the teaching methods. All retaking the class will do is reinforce the idea that math is a chore. Besides, I honestly wouldn't be overly concerned about one C from a straight A student. Find out from her why she didn't do well, then work with her to correct the problem. If it's because she just doesn't understand the math, work with her over the summer. If it's because she didn't try, find out why - she's obviously trying everywhere else. Something about that class must have stopped her. Find out what it is and figure out how to overcome it.

theusername

I got C's in math throughout high school. Just hated it. In college I only had to take one Math Class, got a B- and Im done with it. Either way, she'll be fine.

I'd say ask her what she feels would be best for her future and make sure to take that into consideration and what her reasoning for doing poorly in the class is. Also find out if she got a 69.8 or a 79. The grade C tells you very little about her actual performance/understanding of the material.

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Jinn

Thats a tough one...on one hand you have her future math success, and on the other hand you have ... her future math success. By not making her retake the class, she may not have the algebraic skillsets necessary for every other Math class.. especially Calculus. By making her retake the class, she might become jaded towards Math due to her resentment for re-learning it. If she's got the space in her high school schedule to re-take a class (I didn't) and she's not blatantly against it, I don't think retaking it would be very difficult. She's seen it all before, anyway..

My senior year of high school I took Calc 1 and 2 and ended up barely getting a C in the class -- not becuase I didn't understand it -- because I never turned in homework. I learned the most I have ever learned from that class, and the teacher was brilliant.. but I hated the homework. By that time, I'd already become bored of the repetetive "proving" that I knew the material and simply refused to do the homework. Luckily, my teacher recognized my performance on tests (98%+) and was kind enough to raise my homework grade enough to get a C. Grades can be arbitrary and not indicative of what's been learned, but they can also be very telling. Ask the teacher WHAT caused the C.. if it's tests or quizzes, I'd certainly recommend your daughter retaking the class.

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Charlatan

Personally I dropped math as soon as I could (which was right after I scored a 50% in grade 10 math). To get into University for a BA I needed either math or a second language. I took French and never looked back.

I have never needed math nor really wanted it in my life (by this I mean advanced math).

For the record, I would be considered an artsy-fartsy type, I have a University degree and a job that compensates me well (and I don't do math, except for basic stuff).


My advice is do not retake the course. She is an A in everything else. She seems to excel in everything else, let her be.

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streak_56

Why cannot your daughter decide what she wants to do? If she feels that she does not need to take the course then what is the point forcing her into something she does not want to do? She is an excellent student and does very well is everything else, why hold her back in math. Just discuss this between the three of you and see what the outcome is.

Catmandu

It would be great if my daughter could make the decision on her own. But for the fact that she has a habit of looking for the easy way out of everything. I don't want to force her to do anything against her will. But if it does come down to a re-take, I hope we can convince her that this could be an opportunity. She can meet new guys!

sashime76

Remember, not everyone likes Math or is good at Math. My wife said she sucked at Math until around 10 grade, when she moved to Canada. Her Math teacher had a totally different way of teach, interpreting problems. She finished advanced Calculus in university even though she isn't a Math head. I got as far as Pre-Cal, figured that was enough of Math.

If she isn't interested in the field or her Math teacher can't get her interested in the subject, it won't matter how hard you try or how many time you make her repeat the course.

Janey

math is one of those subjects that builds upon a strong foundation. A C in grade 9 may translate to a C in or lower in Grade 10 and so on. I tmay not be her forte and is not necessary for all University programmes (as per Charletan).

Having said that, gr 9 math is generally a review and may be too boring. So the above argument may not hold true for a brainy kid. Also, University only looks at the last year of highschool for marks. So Grade 12 math (assuming she stays in the academic/University stream for math) is the critical year to 'perform' in.

Re-doing the course in summer school may be an option as a confidence builder, to set her up for a run at Gr 10.

clavus

The only "C" I ever got was in Spanish 2. The next thing I did was pass a test that gave me the equivalent of 2 years college Spanish.

Don't make her take the class over. She PASSED the class. She gets it enough to pass. She may excel at the next level.

BTW - My dad paid me $1 for every A on my report card. I paid him $5 for every C. It was a good system.

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Lead543

Haha. Your daughter sounds exactly like me.

We have two streams of Math in Alberta. Pure is advanced. Applied is not so advanced and Math 24 is...well...does you no good.

I started off in Grade 10 with Pure math. 56%
Grade 11, Applied Math. 65%
Grade 12, Applied Math. 66%

I got 93% in Art this year and 92% in English (Grade 11).

What does she want to do with her life? I decided from the beginning that I wouldn't be doing a career involving Math or Science because I don't enjoy those subjects and no matter how hard I work myself I can never excell in them.

If this were her last year, I advise retaking it, the higher your grades the better chance you have of post secondary acceptance. Unless a C will prevent her from moving to the next stage let it go.

If however, once you talk to her you find out that she truly didn't understand the concepts a tutor may be needed. In my math class the material went by way too fast for me to even wrap my head around sometimes, resulting in little knowledge and poor test marks.

All the best to you when you have "the conversation" I definitly feel where your daughter's coming from.

TM875

Hmm...math is so drastically different than every other subject, that it's difficult to think of a concrete solution.

I was much like your daughter in highschool...very gifted, never had to work hard (even though my "not working hard" was 150% more work than most people did), and frankly HATED math. My middle-school math grades were decent, 9th grade geometry was a waste of time, as was 10th grade Alg. II. The problem with me is that, in class, everything is simple. Watching the teacher do the problem, it all made sense. Doing it on my own - pfft, forget it. I was able to ace all of my math courses, but mainly through participation and homework grades - tests were typically B averages.

My junior year of HS, I had Trig. That, finally, was a beacon of understanding and enjoyment. Why? Because trigonometry is real. It can be seen, it has logic, and can be memorized through that logic. I couldn't find that in other forms of math.

I was an Economics major in college. First semester of my freshman year, I had to take basic Calc. It was torture. Again, eveything made clear sense when presented on the board, but I was stymied when it came to doing it myself. Part of that was that the course was at 8am. Part of that was that I didn't do homework because I didn't have to and that it's tedious and boring. Part of that was that the teacher was terrible. She was brilliant, but couldn't explain anything to kids that weren't as math-oriented as her. Oh, and I never learned to factor in high school. That might have had something to do with it, too.

As I explained to her, I could recite every therom, every step to problem completion. Ask me how to derive. Ask me how to find limits. I could define it all. I could even supply positives and negatives to each approach. But damned if I could factor an equation. Future calc. classes were better - I had a better teacher who explained things realistically and physically.

Back to your daughter. Retaking the course will most likely lead her to being even more bitter and frustrated. The reality is that she might get the same grade even if she takes it again. Now, what would look better on a transcript, one C or two? My suggestion is to let her advance, but encourage her to get extra help if needed. A different type of math course (like geometry or trig) might be better understood by her. I enjoyed both of those, but always hated Algebra. Might be the same for her.

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la petite moi

TM875, when you retake a class in high school, in most schools, the better grade goes on your transcript.

Also, I think it's ridiculous how people think an advanced student should get off with a mediocre grade.

maleficent

Not mine - the classes were averaged together... (Yes, I was the first person in the history of my high school to flunk ceramics!!! YAY ME!)

now many many many moons ago when I was in high school, I was in nothing but AP Classes.... a C in an AP class had the same GPA weight as a A- in a regular class... Our GPA was not only based on the actual grade but what class and what level it was in.

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la petite moi

AP classes now are as follows: if you get a D or F, you did not pass. If you get a C, you get the GPA for a B; if you get a B, you get the GPA for an A; if you get an A, you get an extra GPA point.

Catmandu

Well, the ladies come home from vacation later tonight. We'll have the "discussion" sometime in the next few days. The point about a 'C' means she passed was quite valid. In fact, that's where I was coming from at the beginning. I would like to let her go on if she can somehow show us that she has the basic understanding. My wife wants to talk with the teacher. She's a teacher, too, so maybe she can get some good info.

la petite moi

You definitely have the advantage that your wife is a teacher. Frankly, saying that it's okay that she got a less-than-okay grade, math or not, is teaching your daughter that she can do that for other things too. If she plans on going to a good college, they will see that.

cellophanedeity

I failed math in grade eleven. I got 11% on the exam. I really really failed.

But, since I have no interest in maths and science, I just stopped taking them. My average that I submitted to university was over 90% and I got into all of the schools I applied to.

I don't know the way it works in the States, but if she were in Canada, I wouldn't recommend taking the class again.

ngdawg

I have twins 2 years younger than your daughter. Both usually get high honors across the board, but my son ended the year with a C in Honors Lit. He said the teacher was difficult. I am surely not going to make him take the class over!
Freshman and Sophomore years in high school are the 'slacking off' times. But come her Junior year, PSAT's, college recruitments and college prep courses will generally get a fire going under kids' seats.
If she really does struggle, perhaps she should be taking Math classes that she can handle. I sucked at Math, failed almost every one or got by with a D. What did I do straight out of high school for the next 11 years? Accounting clerical.....:\

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Catmandu

We've heard the "teacher was difficult" story too. It may be true, but it needs to be proven. One thing I've learned about high school teachers is that because of the larger volume of students they deal with, they tend to care lesser about individuals than grade school teachers. It's therefore that much harder to get special attention if you are having difficulty in a class. I really don't want to make a decision on this issue based on whether the teacher is too hard. We've all had to deal with that at some point, haven't we?

snowy

A bad math teacher can ruin a student's experience of math, moreso than any other subject. I had some terrible math teachers that really ruined my enjoyment of the subject. In 9th grade I scored higher in math on the state testing than English, yet thanks to bad teachers I lost any love I had for the subject. I'm now finishing my college degree in English.

Don't make her take the class over again. If she's not planning on using math in a future career, the likelihood is that she knows enough algebra to get on. A C in advanced algebra is not going to prevent her from getting into college. I got Cs in math in both 10th and 11th grades, yet at university I'm an honor roll student and I did get an A in the 1 math class I had to take.

If she doesn't want to do it, don't make her do it. While yes, you are her parents, the fact is that she is of an age to decide what she wants to do, and you should give her the choice.

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raeanna74

DON'T make her retake it. DO talk to her about her struggles with it. I myself was in advanced classes in all my classes. I was even in an afterschool advanced Math program where elementary school kids learned Algebra. I HATE math. ALWAYS have. I know how to manage the problems, I know the methods and how to work the problems but I think through things slowly. I manage to figure out puzzles and very difficult logical problems quite well because I think very slowly and methodically. In math classes they place a lot of emphasis on speed. Many times the grades given in math are based on speed tests and other tests where there is a limited amount of time. I would do ok in regular assignments but would flunk nearly all of the tests. This pulled my overall grade down.

Go over things with her. Look at her tests. If you feel this is really important then get her a tutor to work with her and help her find her strengths in Math. I did not manage to get anywhere with Math until I got help outside of school. I still don't like math and have to write it down but that's simply my weekness. I cannot picture more than two numbers in my head no matter how many digits long it is. I think if I'd gotten help earlier I would have gotten a handle on it better. Now as an older student I have to fight to improve.

At your daughters age, I think repeating the class would only make her dislike the subject more and present more of a block to succeeding at it. Let her go on but find her extra help or personally spend time with her on it. Give her tests and compete with her to see if she can finish it before you finish your copy of it. Make it a game and she'll sharpen her skills without realizing it.

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Suave

Just because she did badly doesn't mean she's bad at it. I was a C/C+ average type of student in math, and most of it wasn't that hard for me, it was just so utterly boring that I couldn't bring myself to put that much effort into it. Not only that, but I always got killed by small mistakes (missing a small addition/multiplication error, etc and screwing up a whole problem).

First find out whether or not she understands it, then if she doesn't, she should probably re-take it.

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kangaeru

Coming from someone who slacked their ass off in high school and totally found motivation and kicked it into gear in college, don't worry about an Algebra I grade of C affecting an otherwise good report card, and her chances of getting into a good college.

I always had bad math / science grades because I hated the tedium of the stuff. My core GPA when I graduated from high school was a 2.93 I think, if you take into account only english social studies math and science courses--core ciriculum stuff. I go to UMass, Amherst, which isn't ivy league, but it's competitive and definitely up there. My SAT's were 1280, and the average for the school when I entered was an 1130, so that definitely worked in my favor.

Then in college I ended up taking advanced japanese courses, and now I'm working on incorporating an economics degree into there too. I went to japan for 4 months, I speak japanese conversationally, etc. I couldn't even pass a vocab test without cheating in my high school french classes. It's all about helping her find her motivation.

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Catmandu

Thanks again for all of the input. We haven't had our talk yet, but I'm beginning to think she's not real happy about the 'C'. My current feeling on the matter is this: if she understands the material, AND she's aware of what she could have done better, then let's move on. One thing it's important to understand is this: she didn't get a 'C' in Algebra 1, it's Advanced Algebra. She was doing work that was 2 years ahead of other kids her age. If she was failing to grasp what we being taught, that's perfectly OK. We just need to know that. We want her to be happy and successful. That said, I would like to offer an opinion that some of you have already indicated you would disagree with. I don't think a 15-yr-old can make a decision that math will never play a part in their life, so let's blow it off. Uhn uh. No way. Most of us may never need to go beyond algebra, but now is not the time for that decision. I come across algebraic and/or trigonometic questions every day. And I mean real life stuff; not just at my job.

la petite moi

Very true, Catmandu. Perhaps your daughter should try doing what I did. I made the decision to go back to Algebra 1, in order to get the grasp of math I needed. I did a great job in that class. And I was forever grateful that I didn't just shrug off the "barely passing" D I got in my Algebra 2 class.

Catmandu

An educated decision, and I applaude you for it. How old were you when you decided to take that class?

la petite moi

I was 14, going on 15 (Freshman year). For the first semester, I thought I could deal with the stress of an advanced Algebra 2 class. Obviously, that didn't work out, and I got a D, which counted for "barely passing" at my high school. I went to my counselour and asked to be placed in a regular Algebra class. Thank god I made that decision, or I would have been struggling since.

Rlyss

I agree with your thinking Catmandu.

I realized at the end of 10th grade that I just can't do numbers. I can do the basic stuff and the intermediate stuff, but anything beyond that just doesn't work in my head. Some people have bad joints and can't run or walk well. They can do physiotherapy and get better at it but they may never be as good as someone who runs as a hobby.

I'm like that with numbers and math. It just doesn't 'work' in my head. I did very well in every other class in high school, I have a university degree with a double major and now have a job I enjoy. I do some accounting and financial stuff for my work but with a calculator and Excel I manage just fine.

It sounds like she is trying and she's not happy with her grade. That's a great sign to me. If she really just isn't a math person then don't pressure her. See if she wants to take a class that more people in her age group are taking, or perhaps one just one grade above her and see how she copes.

Catmandu

I think the best thing I have heard in all this is that the 'C' she just got isn't the end of the world. It sounds like her showing improvement over the 4 years would mean a lot.