Disk_Pusher

Howdy all:

My SO and I were having a conversation about discipline and our soon to be born son, Jeffery, and I was curious about the views of other parents. In my family, discipline from a young age was important as it helped define the concept of self-responsibility. I spoke to my mother about this and she said that she and my father actively used punishment when I was as young as 1 1/2 to ensure I had ample time to develop a since of responsibility. Punishment usually was isolation according to my mother, in response to unending crying when all physical needs had been met (dry diaper, fed, not too cold or warm) and "wrapping" - bundling me if I refused to obey the rules, such as no crawling on the couch. Obviously these were what she used when I was very young, although the isolation remained a very popular form of punishment for my parents.

My SO believes that a child does not have the ability to develop a defined since of self responsibility until much older (4 to 5), and that until then, punishment is quite useless. The example he uses is if a child breaks a vase. He claims that asking the child "Why did you do that?" is quite useless, because they will be unable to answer the question. Furthermore, asking "Who did this?" is also useless. He claims the best thing to do in this situation would be to show the child the vase, and tell them, "YOU broke this vase.” I've been raised to believe that words are very, very useless, and the only way to emphasize that the child is responsible for the broken vase is to punish them somehow, regardless of age.

I don't want to have an unbalanced approach to discipline, as I believe that causes more problems in a child-parent relationship than anything else. I was curious about how discipline was dealt with in your household, and how disputes over the correct course of discipline were resolved. At what age does discipline begin, or rather, at what age can a child benefit from punishment? Also, do you see a difference between discipline and punishment? The words have been used interchangebly my entire life, and I don't see a difference between them.

At this time, I simply want to work out the best course of action - I'm not stuck on any course of action, nor am I convinced that my upbringing was the best way to do things.

Thank you for your input and wisdom in regards to this, and I apologize for the long thread.

~Liz

raveneye

I'm not sure I understand completely what your SO is saying about punishment, but I think you certainly can reinforce or discourage all kinds of behaviors at just about any age. There's really no limit to the number of ways that you can shape a child's behavior, but I agree with you that words alone are not very effective. Our daughter really doesn't respond much to any verbal threats or explanations unless she knows full well that they will be backed up by action.

We never spank or hit; rather we give time-outs (I guess you're calling this isolation), and they generally are very effective. As a toddler she would throw tantrums at the drop of a hat, and we were very strict about ignoring them or putting her in a time out until she was ready to behave. As soon as she understood better, we would explain to her during her timeouts what she did wrong and expect her to apologize and describe how she should have behaved, and promise that she would try to behave better the next time. Accompanying the explanation with a little sympathy and understanding regarding the reason she misbehaved can work wonders.

We never did the "wrapping"; that to me seems a little extreme. For a very small child, I agree that there isn't much you can do, but we did scold and give her short timeouts. They can understand what you're saying a lot more than you might think.

Discipline and punishment to me are different; I'd say punishment is a subset of discipline. Discipline is to me is things like making sure the rules are clear and consistent; establishing a predictable routine and clear expectations; making it clear that there will be consequences for misbehavior; making sure that all this is understood and explained in her language, since the rules are going to become more and more complicated as she gets older.

You might want to pick up a book or two on the subject and read it with your SO, that might provide a good springboard for developing a strategy you both can agree on.

f6twister

I have to disagree with you and your parents. My biggest disagreement is that words have no meaning. Children understand many more words than they can say. Teaching them early on that when you say "NO" that they are to stop what they are doing is very beneficial. My 15 month old son already understands the word no. He likes to pull the CD's out of the holder. All it takes is for one no to come out of my mouth and he stops and leaves it alone.

For us, discipline began when he began showing signs of individuality (trying to crawl, becoming upset when he didn't get his way). Obviously, telling a 2 month old to stop crying isn't going to get a response but once a child cries when they don't get the toy they want or if they will cry when fed vegetables but not fruit or dessert, they need to start learning who makes the decisions. We decided to teach him to respond to no by saying the word then removing him from the situation or redirecting his attention. It took some time but he now understands. When we say no, he redirects himself to something he knows is approved for him to play with.

pun·ish·ment (n). A penalty imposed for wrongdoing; rough handling; mistreatment

dis·ci·pline (n). Training expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior, especially training that produces moral or mental improvement.
Controlled behavior resulting from disciplinary training; self-control.

Which one of these sounds better to use when raising a child?

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A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day. Calvin

Seeker

I strongly agree with F6twister's definitions..

I cannot comprehend when a parent punishes a very young child that has not had first a discipline for the happening or event.

Whenever my daughter did something that I saw was wrong or incorrect for whatever reason, I first ran her history through my mind to see if she had an experience or discipline in the circumstance or behaviour. Sometimes this meant a punishment, other times I could see that she needed a more disciplined approach.

Using your example of the broken vase; First, did the behaviour come from a perspective where the child knew the vase would break? You might be really upset because you loved the vase, but most of the time the child may not have expected that a certain action would cause the vase to break.

Another example from when my daughter was about 1 1/2 years old; My mum and I were cleaning her windows.. my daughter somewhere through our activity found some white shoe polish and proceeded to wipe it all over one of the first windows we had washed.. my mum immediately went into punishment mode, until I interjected and made her realise that my daughter was 'helping'.. how could a child of that age intentionally undo what we had done, it seemed apparent to me that she just did not realise that you don't use shoe polish to clean windows.

All in all, this was my approach and I found it worked very well for me as being a sole parent, I had to both be her friend and teacher. I wish you both the best!...

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To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

Sage

*not a parent, just playing one on TFP...*

personally based on what I've learned of cognition in young children, I think that the best thing to do would be follow what has been said before- make sure you're taking appropiate action based on the history of the child. Also, make sure you aren't acting out of anger, but instead out of love and compassion (ie- you love your son and want him to grow up knowing right from wrong, so you discipline/punish him). One of the greatest stories I've ever heard from my friends is when her young son (4yo) kept throwing rocks and eventually broke the back windshield of the car, she had enough presence of mind to go in the house and calm down BEFORE she disciplined the kid. That way, she was level headed enough to sit down with him and say "I told you not to do that, you kept doing it, and therefore you will be punished." I think there are wayyy too many parents who don't communicate with their children, and to me that's the key in discipline. You broke the vase when we told you not to throw your ball in the house, therefore You are going to clean up the mess and (insert disciplinary action here). Make sure they know WHY mom and dad are doing what they're doing. Whenever I did anything wrong, I got a smack on the butt and boy, did I not do it again!

Congradulations on your new bundle of joy!

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EULA

Hmm. I could have a field day with this tread, but I have other things to do. Discipline is imposed onto a child; self-discipline comes from within the child. Don't expect the former to lead to latter. Don't expect the latter to come until the child is around 5-6.

Hands down, the funniest thing I have EVER seen on a parenting site:
I would hold off on physical punishments until the child can effectively use and understand language (say around 5 or so). If they do something "wrong" say no. If they do it again, physically remove them from the situation and 'entertainment' immediately.

Disk_Pusher

I am very greatful for everyone's input. If I may, a few questions/comments.

raveneye - Do you have any specific books you'd recomend? I did a quick glance through Barnes and Noble and was overwhelmed with the amount of books on the subject.

f6twister - I apreciate your input, and I am jelous of how well your son responds to "no". I hope to have similar results, but only time will tell. Saddly "no" did little to prevent me from stringing my father's tape collection all over the house... (Sorry dad!)

Seeker - Thanks for your comments on the vase - I believe that is more the point that my SO was trying to make. As for the shoe pollish - that's adorable! (until you have to clean it up, I supose.)

Sage - I am currious, when was physical punishment used in your household? I know getting smaked for mouthing off worked wonders for me - I never talked back to my mother.

EULA - Please forgive my thick skull, but I don't understand why what f6twister wrote was funny. Would you mind explaining it to me?

Thanks again to all of you - I apreciate your input, but I'm sure my son will more in the long run (I hope!).

raveneye

I'd recommend Robert Coles The Moral Intelligence of Children as a very good start.

Lebell

I posted it in another thread, but Jim Fey's "Love and Logic" approach, http://www.loveandlogic.com/ , stresses consequences over discipline, which to me makes more sense, since the idea is to train your child to eventually cope in an adult world where there are consequences for your actions.

And no, there is no age too young to start. The trick is to make the consequences age appropriate so that the child can understand that when he/she does a, then b happens, and that they really don't like b so they choose not to do a.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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sexymama

^To piggy back Lebell, here are several age appropriate examples.

At age 2, breaks vase -- "uh oh, look what happened, come help me clean it up." Then have the child hold the dust pan or take the trash out, or vacuum -- whatever s/he can do safely. (Also, "baby proof your house so other breakables are also non-touchables. It is your child's job at age two to explore and learn. Please make it safe to do so!)

At age 4, breaks vase -- "oh dear, I imagine it felt really bad when your broke that. I know I don't like it when I accidently break something. Let me help you clean it up." Then clean it up together, letting him/her sweep, vacuum, do whatever s/he can do safely. (Know that at this age the job is to figure out that consequences and actions are connected. When we do A, B happens, so, as you are cleaning, talk about how the vase broke -- but don't judge! Show sympathy for the mistake, after all we all make them!)

Age 6 and on - vase breaks out of carelessness. At this age, maybe your son/daughter gets an allowance. She/he cleans up the broken vase (or is taught to clean it up if she/he has not been taught how to clean up broken glass yet.) She/he is also asked to help replace the vase with a new one either by buying it out of his/her allowance (keep the new vase price age appropriate) or by doing an extra chore to earn the money to buy a new vase.

I have used the above method with all five of my children and the 3 that are adults all have good jobs, good ethics (they are all known as hard workers) and are happy. They have each come to me individually and thanked me for, well, let me quote from this year's mother's day card from one of my sons: "Thanks for helping to mold me into the responsible adult I am today." No parent could ask for a better compliment.

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If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

Ustwo

My child is too young to understand no (7 months) but my friends 3yr old has no problem knowing things he shouldn't do and say.

That doesn't mean you spank him for doing something wrong, but if you wait till they are 5-6, good luck

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sapituca

I have a 2.5 y/o boy. He has NO problem understanding what is acceptable and what is not, PROVIDED he had exposure to at least one (or maybe two...) previous examples of what is not acceptable behaviour. Many times he heads down on the path of *unacceptableness* surely fully aware that what he is about to do is wrong. One can usually tell just by the facial expression, or by his/her desire to move away from the radar screen to experiment the dark side. Else, you can tell they have no idea they are about to break rules just because they are following their curiosity and minds and are not aware of any previous reprimend/consequences. It's very, very easy to tell one from another.
The * help" cleaning the window is a perfect example of a positive mistake.
I suggest you watch the Brit. TV series "Supper Nanny", there is some pretty good advice in there.
Incidentally, I am only answering this topic because of Foucault's "Discipline & Punishment" classic...., which caught my eye. I am a lurker. http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~felluga/punish.html

william

Parenting doesn't come w/a book. I took the belt until I was about 8 - my brother didn't care until he was 11. What works for one child doesn't always work w/another. Personally, I think todays kids have too many privledges. (TVs, phones, etc) Perhaps because their parents didn't have them, and think their kids should. (?) Parents should aim for the younger ones to do better; but do they have to spoil them?

cheeterbo

after our fourth kid, i really dont care much when it comes to material possessions getting ruined. but i do care about how they were ruined.

seeker & f6twister are on the mark. eula, with all due respect, i think you need to stay out of parenting threads until you are a parent.

our 18 month old is proving the most frustrating. only recently has he learned the word no. the first three picked it up much earlier.

also, this one cries forever. he has an iron will to cry.

as to punishment and discipline, i can't improve on what has been said.

our six and five year old get (punishment or discipline) of no xbox, tv or dessert.

the 18mo crying because he wants more food to throw on the floor gets punishment or discipline of being ignored. if he continues to try to empty the garbage or get out a door, he gets put in a large gate in the family room and he cries until he starts playing with a toy or one of the other kids hop in and start playing with him.

rhaevyn

I'm not a parent, but I've helped raise my nephew (who will be 6 next month) and for my summer job, I'm babysitting a 4 year old girl. I just wanted to give a bit of my experience.

The parents of this girl I'm babysitting do very little by way of punishment and discipline. They give her many chances to listen to them and obey them, and then they'll put her in time-out for three minutes. It doesn't do a damn thing. While she's in time-out, she's given her "blankie," to make her feel better, which I think defeats the purpose of being punished. When the three minutes is up, she is immediately coddled again.

As a result, she gets pretty much whatever she wants. The neighbor and I think that the parents go along with whatever the girl wants just because it's easier, but as a result of that, she's a spoiled, obnoxious little girl who doesn't listen, who yells and screams and kicks and hits her parents.

Discipline is necessary from a very young age if you want your child to listen and obey you later in life.

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