Lebell

Thank you very much, Rekna.

I think it was in church where I heard, in the end, it doesn't matter if you believe in creationism or evolution, because we live in the here and now, and here and now is where Jesus expects us to love and respect each other.

So no harm done and peace.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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kiaora

I believe that the bible should be taken literally because God says that everyone is open to his grace. You don't have to be very itellectual to understand the bible. For example the very first verse of the bible. 'In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.' this tells us that there was a beginning, there is a God and he created the Heavens and the Earth.

If you don't take the bible literally, how do you determine what is true or happened to what is just a metaphor.

If God created the world in billions of years why does his word, the bible say that he created it in six days. Gods not a liar.

lindseylatch

I heard a story from the Bible, where God was explaining to a shepherd boy what one day was to him. The boy would count the sheep that passed him by moving one small stone from one pill to another. When he had 10 small stones, he would replace them with a larger stone.
Then God explain that one day to him was equivalent to that process times 3 of human days (1,000 ).
I don't think i got that exactly right, but I'm sure you get the idea. A day in God's eyes is not the same as a day for us. So, both science and the Bible could be right.

Now, another note: The Bible, although it may have come directly from God, was written by men, who are not perfect. They may have put various ideas or prejudices into the book that God did not mean. So, if you take the Bible as The Word, you're going to be accepting those prejudices.
Accepting the general feel of the Bible, and interpreting it with the help of a theologian, will allow you to truly see what God meant.

All that said, I am NOT a Christian, and I don't believe in the Bible. However, I'm not ready to say that it's all a bunch of crap, either. I'm fully and unapolagetically agnostic.

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"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."
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SecretMethod70

The Road Not Taken


Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth; 5

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same, 10

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back. 15

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference. 20

----------------------------------------------

Now, I admit Robert Frost is not God, but I am not about to call him a liar for saying the things he says here when they did not actually, literally occur. It is incredibly disingenuous to imply that the belief that the Bible ought not be taken literally is tantamount to calling God a liar. And, while this is *clearly* poetry, one can give many examples of poetic language that is not so obviously so. In fact, while it may not be clear to us now, the language in the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, is quite poetic in the Hebrew language. Taking a translation of a translation literally brings up whole other issues that I won't even bother to get into because, frankly, they're obvious.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

kiaora

lindseylatch,

that story about the boy and the stones. do you know where in the Bible that is found because i have never heard of it.

God might live outside of our time zone but that doesn't mean that a day in the bible could mean a billion days for example. after the world was flooded and repopulated he said no one would live for more than 144 years. so if i go by what you were saying that would mean that people could live up to billions and billions of years. do you really think that would be possible?

The bit where you said how bits of the Bible could be wrong because it was written by men. God is in control. He chose his diciples, and he chose who he wanted to write the bible and he wrote it through them. sorry i'm not very good at explaining this but i don't think God would let his bible get stuffed up.

I'm not trying to pick on your views i'm just interested to know why people don't take the bible literally because i only recently found out that some people don't and that some people believe in both the Bible and evolution.

kiaora

What do you think God is like? (his character) for example what does he mean when he says he is the way the truth and the life? because to me when he says he is the truth means he speaks the truth.

tecoyah

Personally, I think She just wants us all to get along.

You know...not kill each other, respect each other, be kind.....that kind of stuff.
She didnt write the books.....but she may speak through them to a certain extent.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

kiaora

since when was God described as 'she'?

SecretMethod70

Plenty of times. God's female persona in the Bible is referred to as Wisdom (or Sophia) IIRC. Aside for that, the majority of Christian churches acknowledge that God has no gender. The Catholic Church, for example, uses the pronoun he only in recognition of the tradition behind it, but asserts that God is not a he or she. Most Christian churches agree (although, I admit, sheer number is not proof of anything).

To answer a slightly different, but, I think, related question as to what I think God is like....I think it is terribly delusory to assert that something as basic and simple as text can even begin to fully embody the essence of the Ultimate Reality, or God - that which is beyond all that is tangible, including words.

Not trying to pick on you, but if you only recently discovered this, it seems to me you may not be in a position (not to say that I am) to be making judgments regarding various religious beliefs.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

kiaora

I didn't just discover the bible or evolution and I am not trying to make judgements I am just interested in why people believe in both the biblical view and scientific view. personally I think it takes more understanding of these to see how they don't work together than thinking they do because it is easier to analyse something when you have something to compare it to. For example i know two professors of evolution that became Christians and no longer believe anything that they were teaching. (once they had more understanding of the bible)

thanks for telling me your opinions. sorry if I have come across offensive in any way

lindseylatch

But, man has free choice, so he couldn't be FORCED to write the Bible in a specific way. AND the Bible has been translated and re-written by scribes so many times, there were many oportunities for mistakes are prejudices to get in. Believing that the Bible today is exactly the same as the Bible written 1200 years ago is just ignorant. And which edition are you taking literally? There are tons of editions, so having more or less than others, and some translate sections in a COMPLETELY different way.

As for the story, that was like third-hand, and i was using it to make a point that perhaps God has a different sense of time than humans. Doesn't mean he can't think in human terms, like the 144 years, just that perhaps that's not what they meant with the 6 days thing. Just a different viewpoint.

And if you take the Bible so literally, do you wear clothing made from more than one fabric, and eat shellfish, and do you stone adulterers? Did you know the Bible says it's okay to sell your daughter into slavery?

If the Bible isn't taken as a general guide, then it's being used just to justify whatever behaviors one feels like performing, and is being ignored for every other part.

You've obviously never seen Dogma...

__________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."
-Voltaire

kiaora

You obviously have not done your homework. All of the points you make have been adequately answered and demolished by scholars who have taken the trouble to look at the actual evidence and to get their facts straight. I suggest you visit a good theological seminary library or Christian bookshop and start reading!

tecoyah

Ahem.......no Not Amen.

There are those of us here who have indeed....studied much of the scripture....from many differing faiths, and likely deserve a somewhat higher level of respect than is projected above. Simply because one interprets these texts in a way that differs from yours, does not mean they are wrong.
I use the female term for God to get people to think......

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Rekna

or to get people to argue...

Lin

Now im not sure if I should be coming in on this. Am i a christian? ask me again in the future because I think Im at a personal crossroads . Ive only recently started to look at christianity , mainly because of a new friendship but I think Ive been heading towards it for a while.
So I know very little at present about the Bible and I could not quote anything from it im afraid.
I just wanted to say I like what I perceive to be rekna's views about the need for doing good deeds to get into heaven.It was one of the problems I had with Christianity, I couldnt understand how it seemed to say that a person could live a good honest caring life and yet not be accepted into heaven if he didnt accept Christ , yet someone who lived a selfish , hurtful towards others kind of a life yet believe in Gods love and have a guaranteed place in heaven.

But reading what Reknas writes I feel I understand it a bit better , the logic of it.How can God offer you unconditional love and yet keep a tally of your good deeds.And how would you measure good deeds, after all someone who has spare money would not find it as hard to give financial help to someone as a poor person giving someone his last few pounds would be and yet in itself it seems like the same act of generosity.

I also believe that if you have that trust and Love for Jesus then the need to do good deeds for others would come naturally .

As I say Im a novice so I cannot join in any debate over it , Im glad this thread has calmed down a bit. acceptance of others personal relationship with God and being non judgemental should be a basic task for Christians I think

Lebell

Just an aside,

I also frequently use "She" along with "He".

I don't use it to "start an argument", but rather to acknowledge that God is beyond one gender and that the nature of God encompasses us all.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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mrklixx

A perfect example of what Tecoyah was talking about, thank you.

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lindseylatch

And yet you never realized not all people take the Bible literally? It seems that, although you've researched your own point of view, you have failed to research the point of view of others. Perhaps you should go to a good college class on comparative religion. The best way to argue your point, is to know where the other person is coming from. Then you can head them off at the pass, so to speak.

__________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."
-Voltaire

asaris

But that ignores several things. First of all, the scribes believed they were transcribing the word of God, so they were probably pretty careful. Second, their culture was much more of an oral culture than ours is (especially when we start talking about the OT). Third, and perhaps most importantly, when we've discovered manuscripts earlier than what we've had previously, there were almost always only minor differences (the sort where one person says hills and the other mountains).

Yeah, I don't remember that story being in the Bible either. There is a verse which says "A day in your courts is as a thousand elsewhere", but that's pretty clearly metaphorical (it's in Psalms). There's another in the NT that says "A thousand years to the Lord is as a single day", but when taken in context, it's clear that it just means to emphasize God's patience.

Purity laws were explictly revoked in the NT. Wrt slavery, that's a difficult issue. Most people I know would say that God was going easy on a people whose moral sensibilities weren't the same as ours; Christ says explicitly that this was the case with OT divorce law.

Funny, I'd say the same thing about people who say that the Bible should just be taken as a general guide, without having any principled way of distinguishing between passages we should follow and those we should ignore.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

lindseylatch

How DO you decide which passages to follow and which to ignore, if they ALL come from God?

And, like I said, I'm not Christian. I don't follow the Bible in any way, and I fully admit that I'm a relativist (meaning I don't have any specific rules for what's right or wrong), so I don't need an excuse to do whatever I want, I just do it. I don't hide behind a book or an organization.

__________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."
-Voltaire

snowy

Like THAT's not a biased source of information, please. And scholars, pff. Give me some evidence--tell me which scholars, where.

While it IS hard to find non-biased sources regarding religious study, there are a few out there. If you haven't already, I recommend checking out works by Dr. Marcus J. Borg. He's a leading scholar in the concept of the historical Jesus, among other theological issues. He is, notably, also a professor at my university, and I have had the opportunity to see him speak on multiple occasions.

I should note that I am a Christian, and I too refer to God as "she" from time to time.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

hambone

I don't argue religion in groups like this, prefer one on one since its easier to understand the other person and make your points known.

That said, my only reason for posting here is because I laughed when I read onesnowyowls post.

It says on one line:
"I am a Christian"

and her sig says:
"100% Pure Evil"



Funny stuff

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"Like liquid white from fallen glass,
Nothing to cry over"

snowy

Yeah, a certain friend of mine ' round the TFP claims I am 100% Pure Evil for various reasons. *cough* Trampoline.

After reading through the thread I thought I would post my own statement of faith as to where I am with God.

If you refer back to ShaniFaye's post you'll get a good sense of how I live my life. If I screw up and ask for forgiveness, I am forgiven. I believe much more in the concept of a loving and forgiving God than some vengeful God that wants to send me to Hell. Secondly, I take the words of Jesus Christ himself far more seriously than I do anyone else's (which, IMO, is how it should be). Paul has deliberate reasons for saying what he said--Paul was a huge fan of asceticism and in fact encouraged people to live an ascetic lifestyle. Therefore, most of what Paul has to say about religious life I read very cautiously. As for the OT...they're great stories, and there are some really awesome tales to be read there.

As for my own behaviors: yes, I swear, I drink, I have premarital sex, I engage in homosexual behaviors from time to time. I fully admit to being a sinner. I would rather be honest with myself and with God than live a life I would find a) stifling and b) unfulfilling. I do my best, though, to make up for my shortcomings through a fullness of faith.

Me in a nutshell...though it's really hard to encapsulate my faith in a nutshell--I think it's a living, vibrant thing, and I also think that's exactly how it should be.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Glory's Sun

Ok so I've skimmed through this thread..wondering if I should indeed jump into this. Since Secret and Tec are involved (them knowing where I stand) I think I might. Let me just put this disclaimer out there. *I do not believe in some god, I do not believe in some supreme diety, I do not believe in salvation* Ok. Now I was raised in a "Christian" home until I was 17. The one thing that I didn't understand was "Free Will". How can someone have free will when god already knows what's going to happen, and has predetermined the outset of mankind. If god knows everything then he knows who is going to get saved and who is going to do what. So does that really give anyone free will?

Ok.. I need to do some work but there's also one other thing that bothers me. I don't understand the belief in a book written by man that is said to be holy considering man is so flawed. If the Bible is the authority of god.. then why didn't he just make it instead of using a flawed figure?

CSflim

This question has been discussed before on the board. To discuss it here would only take the thread off track.
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/search.php?searchid=282985

asaris wrote an interesting post a while back:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...ight=free+will

__________________

Glory's Sun

whoops.. sorry I just thought this whole thread was about the broad spectrum of christianity.. I knew I shouldn't have come in here..

mrklixx

As the OP I'll emphatically say that this thread most certainly can be about the broad spectrum of Christianity. I am vehemently opposed to being a "thread nazi", because I would much rather a thread be a "discussion" rather than a string of monologues. Any real discussion is fluid and may contain many twists and turns. Just think of this as "a really slow chat"

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CSflim

I didn't mean to be a 'thread nazi'....honest!

It's just that things can sometimes get very unfocused and off topic. With something so complex as free will vs omnipotence, it seems reasonable to devote an entire thread to it. Especially when there has already been plenty of quality posts written on the subject.

__________________

kiaora

I should probably tell you that I didn't write this comment. Someone I live with did because I showed him what you said and instead of him going into every point you said and saying what the bible says about these he wrote what he did. He has very high qualifications in both science and theology so I like to ask for his opinion.
Anyway I am doing a course in comparing all the world views.

kiaora

Is the Bible believable? read Luke 1:1-4
although Luke and other writers of the books of the bible have taken great pains to accurately record the events within, some people have tried to point out alleged contradictions or inconsistences in the Bible. these same people argue that the Bible is not credible based on what they believe to be contradictions.
Here are three reasons why the Bible is believable.
1. God is the author. Despite the fact that the Bible was writtin by more than forty authors, we must recognize one important fact: the people who put the pen to paper were but instruments in the hand of God. the real author of the Bible is God. As the apostle Paul wrote, "All scripture is inspired by God" (2 timothey 3:16). God chose to speak through these different people much like an artist uses different brushes to paint on a canvas. Each one had his own unique style, but the truth was the same.

2. The main story of the Bible is too complex to be a hoax. the renowned historian Will Durant, who devoted his life to the study of records of antiquity, made his observation concerning the accounts of Jesus and the early church in Scripture- if you want info from the book just ask but heres the reference. (caesar and Christ, in the story of civillisation, vol 3( New York: Simon & Schuster, 1944)]

3. Scientific Evidence Supports the Bible's accuracy. Archaeological findings have supported many of the complex historical passages found in the Bible. in addition, the Bible has greater doccumented accuracy than any other ancient literary work {see Norman L. Geisler & William E. Nix, A General introduction to the Bible (chicago: Moody Press, Moody Bible institute, 1986)]

In spite of evidence, Gods Word must be excepted by faith. You, as an individual, must come to recognize that the words of the Lork are perfect, trustworthy, and right (see Psalm 19:7-11). Your belief in and practice of the truths found in the book -God's message to us- will make the most profound impact on your life for time and eternity.

Also if you want a reference for understanding the simplicity of the gospel look at 1 Corinthians 2:1-5

Rekna

how do we decide what to believe in the bible if we can't take it all literally? Do we pick to follow only what we like? If you can't believe in the small parts how can you believe in the big parts?

martinguerre

or, i happen to use it for devotion. calling God she is not baiting or flaming. it's a theological practice and claim that has every right to grace these pages.

all i wanted to say...i think the literallism/ "read the whole thing" debate already got settled.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

raeanna74

I just felt I should weigh in. I'm not going to address all the many different aspects discussed here as it would take me all night. I do feel that I should in brief tell how I personally view things and why I do what I do.

I am a Christian. I call myself such because I do believe in a supreme being such as described in the Bible. I do trust that there is a heaven and hell. I also believe that the God I believe in created a way to live with him in the afterlife by sacrificing his Son/part of himself. Now I do not believe the entire Bible literally. I do not follow every letter of the law - especially the law expressed in the Bible. Part of the reason is that, as was stated earlier, the New Testament amends the Old Testament laws. In the New Testament Christ stated as follows.

Matthew 22:36 "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

To me that says that so long as I am loving my neighbor in word and dead and the same for God that I am within the law.

Now my husband and I are swingers. This I have not rectified with my at least previous beliefs. I still struggle with it. For now I view my lifestyle as such: No matter what the Bible says about coveting your neighbors wife or leaving your spouse for another person as being adultry - my husband and I are one in agreement in our lifestyle. We do not covet to live or be married to another's wife or husband or to replace our current spouse with another single person. We have found that our lifestyle has created a bond for us that seems stronger than other trials we've faced has ever formed for us. If this is all true then can you define our lifestyle as such, sin?? I'm not sure where that line is drawn. I think that if ever I was convinced that our lifestyle was truely contrary to "loving the Lord" my God. Then I would probably end that lifestyle.

As for cuss words - If I'm not using names of God in every day conversation and only using them in reference to him then I see no problem in any other cuss words.

I hope this explains my personal actions and words in light of my profession of faith which I am obviously still attempting to define.

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"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Rekna

my point on arguing was when I read what was said, it seemed to me to be subltle attempt to bait people into commenting on it (which worked). The gender of god (or lack thereof) had nothing to do with the conversation at hand and that comment seemed to be added with the sole intent of baiting people into the conversation. Assigning a gender to god is pretty silly in itself because it suggests god is part of procreation and that there is a counterpart to god that he can procreate with. He is mearly the normal pronoun to use when refering to god and it doesn't imply gender. It doesn't work as a pronoun because it implys a non-living object and Christianity is about a living God. I stand by my statement that he used the pronoun she only to strike an argument if you wish to use a euphamism and call it "discussion" or "thinking about it" go ahead and do it but that wording was clearly chosen for a reason.

lindseylatch

What are "high qualification"? And comparing world views on what?

__________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."
-Voltaire

lindseylatch

I agree. So I don't believe in any of the Bible.

I think saying she may have just been an automatic gesture. Like many Wiccans say Goddess instead of God automatically. I don't know why we're trying to read ulterior motives in the use of a pronoun...Maybe her hand just slip.

__________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."
-Voltaire

tecoyah

It is simply amazing to watch the results of a simple change in wording. I Use She simply because it has the effect (sometimes) of making people consider the actual form of this GoD entity. If you decide to argue about it (which I have not seen in this thread) that is more a picture into your own personality than anything else. Most people I have found simply ask Why?
In answer.....Why is God a He?

Should you decide to consider this question....perhaps some measure of enlightenment on the authors of these books will come to light....or perhaps not.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

CSflim

Because it says so in the Bible?

__________________

tecoyah

Well.....guess that puts that question to rest.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

raeanna74

Just to make mention of the He/She God persona

I went to a Baptist Bible College and took a number of doctrines classes. From what I understand the names given to God in the Bible are more gender neutral. Jehovah and some other Hebrew and Greek names for God don't express any gender at all. The choice of He over She was made when the Bible was first translated and the term "HE" held authority in the home and government in that time period so it was the natural term to use. If you really find it necessary to debate this subject I can find you some sources when I visit my in-laws. That's where my Doctrines books are stored.

Technically God is genderless so whether we use a male or female name does not matter much in the grand scheme of things.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.