Himbo

Okay so my girlfriend and I had an agruement on the way home from my parents house last weekend. . well not realy an arguement but rather a discussion. My parents = christian faith . . .her father = atheist . . my girlfriend . . .up in the air really.

So she gave me all these facts "disproving" the existence of God expecting me to come back with all my "bible knowedge" that she thinks I have so much of. Well truth is . since I moved out of my parents place I go to church three or four times a year. So here are her points or arguements that I could not answer and I was wondering if some other people on here could help me out . .so next time I can have something to say instead of looking like an idiot.

1. According to the bible the earth is 10,000 years old. However Carbon dating (that's with rocks) has proven that this earth is over 2 millions years old?

2. If God and Christians alike see homosexual behaviour as a sin then why does he make people gay? Why has it been proven that people who are homosexual have a slightly different chemical makeup or something. Like one extra of this or one less of this?

3. Why no mention of dinosaurs in the bible? How could Noah build a structure large enough to house ever single creature on the planet? When todya we couldn't build a structure so large and maintain it with all those animals for 40 days.

4. If you have to "confess your sins" and ask for forgivness how do children under the age of 4 get into heaven. If they can't ask for forginess do they all go to hell?

5. She told me some crap about some scientists actually making life out of nothing? I've tried to find that on the net but can't.

These are a few of the questions that I couldn't really answer. Any help would be much appreciated. It was extremly frustrating to sit there and see her with that smug look on her face! I don't want to prove to my gf the existence of a higher being but I would like to properly defend my beliefs.

Lebell

This has been kicked around here in various threads, but here you go:

This argument isn't against God, but rather against reading the Bible as a literal history/science book.

As someone who has studied science (heavy on geology), I have no problem believing in a scientific creation of the world.

To me, the Bible is an account of how God has interacted with humanity, as seen from the humanity side. Therefore, I read it as such.

If I need a geological history of the Earth, I open one of my Geology books.

Not all Christians see homosexuality as a sin. For me, the arguement you presented was persuasive, so I concluded that homosexuality wasn't sinful.

Since the Bible will be drug into this point again, I'll just say that the key to understanding the Bible's admonitions against homosexuality lie in how the ancient Hebrews understood the afterlife.

The Bible isn't a science book (see reply to #1).

Good question. Maybe they aren't going to Hell. Maybe God's mercy takes this into account. (That's what I believe, anyway.)

So far, to the best of my knowledge, science has not made anything living. What she may be refering to are experiments where they HAVE created basic amino acids which are the building blocks of life by reproducing conditions they think may have existed during the early history of the planet.

But even if they do make a primative life form, so what? Heck, even if they clone people, so what? They still can't prove or disprove that this creation has a soul, or that there is a God who looks over it.


The problem here is that your girlfriend is using strawman arguments (the Bible vs. carbon dating, etc.) to try to do something that is ultimately impossible: proving the non-existance of God. Conversely, you cannot use 'facts' to prove that God exists.

No, if you want to believe (or not believe) in God, you have to find other reasons. Check out my responses in this thread:

Why believe in the Bible?

chavos also has some good posts there.

I also have a thread, "Ask Lebell" (currently buried somewhere) that I answered a lot of these questions in.

Good luck!

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Himbo

Thanx Lebell that sort of helps me out. Appreciate it.

J

Beltruckus

With the child question, I don't know about other religions but when young children die, or someone who is handicapped will automatically be able to go to heaven (sorry according to LDS church) They dont have the brain capacity to really know right from wrong therefor they can do no wrong. This is what I believe also.

There is also that argument that a day in the life of god is several thousands of years. I can't really say more about this because I don't know. and i'm sure the dinosaurs were extinct before noah, they were extinct billions of years ago.

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Lebell

Just a foot note, the dinosaurs died out at the end of the Cretaceous period, roughly 63 million years ago.

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TheKak

God hates gays, every christian should know that, its in the bible! So why would he create something he hates? So he would have a large group of people to laugh at as they are burning in hell, those heathens!

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Himbo

ah . . TheKak . . .your not answering anything I asked. Posts like yours are anything but helpful.

chavos

I've just got a few little things to add...

This presumes a judgement/condemnation model of God...which is part of the picture. That which is totally just and rightious is in opposition to that which is not. But, and this is a huge, J Lo style but, human experience has also felt another influence from the divine: mercy. One of the greatest theological statements i have ever heard is "I believe God's grace has outrun my rebellion. I hope that it will outrun all rebellion."

To me, this is the Christian hope. That while we are indeed in the midst of suffering and sin, that the grace of God will bring forgiveness and healing to all. To play a legalism that sends a toddler to hell is to ignore the justice that God represents...the reason why we worship in the first place. That said...i know that some Christians would not take theological issue with such "justice," but i believe they are gravely mistaken.

As for GLBT issues...i've posted this elsewhere, but i'll plug 'em as many times as i have to:
http://whosoever.org/index.shtml

They're non-denominational, and have great resources on why it makes sense to favor the many verses and themes of God's approval of love, over a few legalistic verses that might be used to condemn homosexuality.

Lebell asnwered the science related material beautifully, so i hope that answers all your queries. on a side note...i would hope that your GF would learn to respect whatever ways you choose to explore life and it's meaning...and the best of luck to you with this all.

Himbo

Thanx Chavos you've been very helpful. I find that this topic always leads my gf and I into a big fight . .so i avoid it most of the time. But now I have a better understaning . .. thank you.

J

Himbo

Thanx Chavos you've been very helpful. I find that this topic always leads my gf and I into a big fight . .so i avoid it most of the time. But now I have a better understaning . .. thank you.

J

Mr. Moe

it's 4.2 billion years old, not 2 million . Otherwise Lebell
was right on in his counter arguments. Science did make amino acids using water, some molecules and lightning, and have yet to produce anything of real substance (although I side purely with the side that life happened on it's own with no outside interference, we just can't do it yet).
As for the Homosexuality bit, it was very misunderstood back when the bible was written, and in many cultures seen as evil (or a sign of being a hethen, since the greeks and romans were very open about the subject, and early jews/christians were against their pagen gods) It was probably made as an addition after the fact, and doesn't relate to gods plan.
I can't see a God throwing babies in hell just because they can't comprehend him.

glophead

Just a few points

The Bible doen't necessarily not metion dinosaurs. In Job there is mention of a Bohemoth creature with a tree trunk like tail, which some interpert to be a dinosaur. And also some believe that the animals taken aboard the ark were not full grown, but merely children, which could also explain why they weren't thrashing eachothers throats.

I have heard that too.
I find it kind of ironic that they were trying to prove that life could be created without a higher, intelligent being, when they were creating it.

TIO

You mean GLBTQIQ

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Strewth

chavos

actually, i meant what i meant. never even heard of that acronym before, and it gets only 3 google hits.

GBLTQIQ: Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender,Queer, Intersexed and Questioning

Yeah, that's more inclusive. But i was posting about a specific site, whosoever.org. They say they serve GBLT Christians. Now i'm sure there are QIQ identifying people who can learn from those same resources. But i don't think i need to change how i described that site.

[rant]Basically, i'm being pretty pissy by correcting your correction, but i don't really like taking shit for not knowing the most obscure term possible, as if use of the previously accepted term somehow makes me less of an ally. Insider jargon is divisive, and i don't much care for it. [/rant]

Bottom line? People should read that site if they have issues with sexual idenity and the Christian faith, no matter what letter they are in whatever acronym.

Quietus

I think some bible scholars believe that the "7 day" creation is not literal, and it actually took thousands (millions?) of years. Another theory is that the earth really is only 10,000 years old, and God created it with the appearance that it was millions of years old (i.e. with dinosaur bones and such already embedded). In other words, he's God, he can do anything he wants.
Theoretically, before the flood, people lived hundreds of years. I think the oldest person in the bible, Methuselah, was over 900 years old. Imagine now that Noah and his entire family had 100 or 200 years to work on the ark before the flood. Makes things at least a little more believable.
God's mercy provides for people that are unable to really make choices on their own. As it was once explained to me, we live in a state of perpetual mercy, in which we don't have to ask forgiveness for every single sin we commit. Otherwise, if you committed a sin then died before asking forgiveness for it, you'd go straight to hell, even if you did believe in God.

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giblfiz

I think the core problem here is that your GF is making a faulty logical jump

If the bible is not true then no god exists.

Its not hard to find problems with factual things in the bible. Hell If you want I can point you to some places in Genesis where the math flat out doesn't work out with itself (i.e. bob spent 7 years walking, and then 7 working and then died, making a total of 12 years of life after he started walking)

The thing to remember is that faith in god or religion does not imply faith that the bible is literal truth.

Whats more important is that you understand that you *can't* prove gods existence. The best you can hope for is that your gf keeps an open mind and an open soul, and eventually something touches her to make her believe.

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dtheriault

First off i don't think the bible is god's word. I think it's humans interpretations of their experiences with god/religion. That being said.

1. The blink of God's eye is hundreds of human years. so he created day and night... billions of years; saw it needed something more: earth... billions of years; put oceans/earth... millions of years etc....

2. god doesn't make people gay. people choose to be gay. (not my theory) i also strongly agree that jesus was way more into love than into hating people over their lifestyle choices.

3. the bible doesn't mention everything. god could help noah house animals in an ark just like jesus fed the multitude with 7 fish and 7 loafs. miracles they're so darn tricky.

4. remember jesus' sermon about children and how they are holy and that we are not to corrupt them. kids get into heaven. if you don't know what sin is you can't commit one. (children and mental retardation/insanity)

5. creating life and creating sophisticated life ie. man/woman with an evolved ecosystem= 2 very different things.

How many science "facts" have been disproven. Should we not believe in science because it's not always right? Just like the bible, science is more a vehicle of discovery than a codified fact.

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glophead

Excellent advise; couldn't have said it any better myself.

TIO

Sorry, chavos...I probably should have put a smilie on the end of that post. I was just having a bit of a jibe, I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you for missing those 3 letters out.
Personally, I think we should just stick to 'queer' for the whole lot. It's a lot easier to pronounce, for a start.

But only 3 google hits? All of the Allies here use the long acronym!

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guthmund

Everyone has already done a fantastic job of answering those questions. I would have to agree with giblfiz in that it sounds like your girlfriend is equating disproving the existence of God by disproving The Bible.

The Bible is a work of literature, in my opinion. You cannot interpret it literally because there are just too many inconsistencies.

Matthew says Jesus' grandfather was Jacob, Luke says it's Heli.
Genesis can't decide if the beasts or Man came first. It also stumbles in deciding how many of what beasts Noah should take with him.
Matthew, Mark, and John cannot decide what Jesus' last words were.
The Bible also cannot decide if Judas hanged himself, or "burst asunder....all his bowels gushed out."

The list goes on....

This proves nothing except that The Bible is erroneous. It does little to disprove God.

The Bible had a bad editor with no eye for continuity; I've seen science books with the same.

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Himbo

Thanx everyone. I think what I really learned from all this is that I have to become more knowlegable in my own religion. Thanx for all the great replys.

J

skippy

Himbo, You have asked some very hard questions, Thank you for that. One day we will all find out if God is really out there or not.

As for me I choose to beleive that I am loved by God even though I am imperfect and incapable of following every rule in scripture. It's a good thing the bible has Mark chapter 7 verses 1-23 in it. I could never make it without GRACE.

Thanks again

Skippy

Easytiger

I don't suppose you'd consider just trying to respect your girlfriend's beliefs and asking her to respect yours? Different beliefs don't HAVE to get in the way of a loving relationship...

chavos

whoa...easy tiger. maybe i'm reading wrong, but those words sound stingy.

Easytiger

Not at all. It's just that there's no point in throwing away a relationship just because you believe different things. And let's face facts, the debate that Himbo is engaged in cannot really be "won".
My fiancee is an atheist, I'm not, but we get along fine- mainly because we don't feel the need to "convert" the other.

CSflim

Pi = 3

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Ubermensch

If you want to read some slightly more sophisticated anti-religious arguments that people might still throw you at a dinner party, try reading Bo Fowler's 'Scepticism Inc'. It's fiction (sci-fi), very funny, but with lots of real philosophical debate in it. It quotes contradictory sections of the bible to, for extra giggles! While it doesn't answer the questions it raises, it should provide the genuine theist with extra food for thought. Enjoy!

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mr sticky

If you want help trying to meld your religious upbringing and your scientific education, I suggest you pick up a copy of a book called "The Science of God" by Gerald Schroeder. It will help you in this particular "crisis".

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archer2371

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Johnny Rotten

For what it's worth, her arguments aren't against God, they're against the Bible and, by extension, the Christian faith. The Bible has many contradictions and factual errors, but I wouldn't base an argument against God solely on that text. God is also Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, Egyptian, etc.

She can't condemn basic Christian values, either, as they are universal. Respect, patience, compassion, truthfulness, and productiveness span all major beliefs.

The most she can establish is that the Bible has some problems.

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Memalvada

The way I see it: the Bible is not accurate - it was written by men. It is an interpretation of the world around them, and a collection of stories passed down through generations. And like any other literary work, its views are affected by the authors' environment and stuff. So I dont believe in EVERYTHING the Bible says.

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The.Lunatic

The Bible is a scripture depicting "human" history to an extent, and laying out the guildliens needed to have a functional society. If they had garbled the bible with all the facts of earths history it would've taken away from the power of the book.

Scientists have not made life out of nothing. They've tried. They can't do it and it hasn't happend since.

They said the whole world flooded and i wouldn't be suprised if there was a massive flood, but ever notice how no other ancient scriptures have a reference to a great world flood, but do have lots of references to a great ancient flood. The black sea ( or balitic i don't remeber which ) used to be a valley or something like that Remeber everything in ancient times was centralized in that area of the world. So noah could've made a boat and put every animial that he knew of on it. Or it could just be a fable, but animals in every other part of the world wouldn't've been affected, but still it would've been like flooding texas.

I could go into further depth about this as there's been documentation about it. Noahs warnings came in the form of waves and things i believe and the tide would've acounted for this as there was cracks in some sea wall or something.

Regardless there may or may not be a god, and the bible is factually based, but it should be seen for what it is and not what it isn't. It is the single greatest testament to human survival as a communtiy every produced.

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mac Daddy

Here is your proof of God. I think this was the Thomas Aquainus philosophy. All things come from something. Something cannot come from nothing. We all came from something ( our parents). We were not created out of nothing. Every scientist knows this fact of something cannot come from nothing. This being fact take time into account. If time shows proggression then there must be a beginning. If there is a begging then what was here before that. Obviously nothing would be wrong because we came from something. Hence if there was a beggining then there was nothing before that. So something (God) had to create all this from nothingness. Lets see her prove that wrong. She can't. By the way the bible is just a story to base your life on. Don't take it verbatim. Just go by the good message. If it said it was raining cats and dogs, to us that means heavy rain. If it was in the bible that would be something like the eleventh plauge of Egypt. And God threw cats and dogs down from the Heavens. Get my point.

CSflim

I refuted this argument as a "proof" of god in the thread "Rationalistic Theism", and recieved no satisfactory counterpoints.
This argument is so fallacious that it's not even funny.

EDIT: Oh yeah and this statement is false too. " Every scientist knows this fact of something cannot come from nothing."

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archer2371

That's not entirely true, first law of thermodynamics states there must be something there to create something, however, it has an exception. It doesn't apply to quantum singularities, that's the only one I know of, if anyone else knows what other exceptions are, I'd be glad to hear them. Currently though, since we don't have any quantum singularities hangin around Earth, a scientist would have to have something to start with in order to create something.

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costello

all arguments aside on the bible and such ... no matter what arguement you make on how life began or whatever, it all had to have come from somewhere. My physics teacher gave us a formula for how much the universe is expanding and gave a rational explanation on how the universe probabally started out as one incredibly small entity and then the "big bang" caused a rapid expansion and proof of that is that the universe is still expanding today. well if thats what you want to believe thats fine. but where did that entity come from? i dont understand atheism in that sense to say that there isnt a higher power, christian god or not. it had to have come from SOMEWHERE. the only possible explanation was that it was created. it just didnt start.

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CSflim

true. I put my hands up to this one. I don't know how the universe started. But I don't see how anyone else can claim that they DO.
My full feelings on this non-argument for the existence of God is explained in the thread I linked to above, "Rational Theism"

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CSflim

can you find an empty jar?
I mean a really empty one...containing a vaccum?
Nothingness cannot exist, for then that "space" would be pecisely known, defying Hesenberg's principle. So you will find matter/energy coming into existence all over the place. Normally, so tiny that you don't even notice it, but in a vaccum, it's there alright. Sadly it nearly always "annhilates itself", if you want to take the picture of particle-antiparticle.

However, it is true that it has little to do with this argument...it merely draws attention to the lingustic difficulties of defining "nothing".

One that is more relevant to this argument is the idea of cause and effect.
The idea that everything must have a cause is only true in the general everyday sense.
Trvial example, take a single atom of a radioactive isotope.
When will it decay?
Not yet....not yet...there! It decayed! Question is, what caused it? What caused it to decay at that particular instant? Nothing. It's spontaneous i.e. without cause.

Also talk of what came "before" the big bang preciisely meaningless, as time didn't exist "before" the big bang.
Someone on this board used the very clear analogy of comparing talking about "before the big bang" as being like talking about "north of the north pole".

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costello

read it, but still cant understand how there can be some rational, human explanation on how everything began. human thinking needs something to have a beginning in order for us to comprehend. why cant there be an entity that has no beginning? my arguements are broad and puny compared to yours but ill try to be more concise the next go around :P

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woody1

I don't think you ever win any arguments on religon or politics. I am in the same position you are and have faced the same questions. It took me 7 years to learn to change the subject and tell her how lovely she is and how happy we are. I have plugged into her head to except and like everybody. TRY IT.