nanotech

This thread is an important resource for philosophers or any person who wants to know more about life, history, what happened thousands of years before and what will happen later. The resource is a collection of 58 astounding videos which can be found on www.harunyahya.com . They are all objective and scientific and relate to everybody. They are not preaches but a type of question and answer videos. The purpose of the author is to answer difficult questions and I am really astonished on the amount of energy and patience he has to make all these videos. Questions answered like:

Was there a first model of the human being?
How the universe did come to existence?
Why do animals have patience for hours on issues like standing guard on their tribe?
How do millions of blind ants which cannot hear build a large tower and how do they know their role?
How did each prophet live? What did he do? How did he solve problems? etc
What will happen in the Golden Age (estimated 3000 years)?

The one I like mostly is the video about nature:
LOVE AND COOPERATION IN LIVING THINGS

It makes one wonder why these animals work together as a team, guard each other and take care of each other when one thinks they should only care about eating and drinking and shelter.

There's a miracle in another video which I like very much ALTRUISM IN NATURE . A large alligator is laying on the sand on the side of a river. A baby turtle hatches and starts moving towards the river as all baby turtles. They are at this stage in most vulnerable position as the mother turtle is not around and a lizard or other animal could eat it. The turtle looses its way and cannot find the river. The big crocodile sees it and slowly comes over and picks the little turtle is his mouth full of sharp teeth. The turtle picked up is upside down in the alligator's mouth. The alligator knows that, so he moves his mouth upside down and flips the turtle in his mouth back on its feet. The alligator then goes slowly to the river making sure his mouth stays on the surface so as not to drown the turtle. Then he opens his mouth and lets the turtle swim away.

My question is, who teaches this alligator to take care of the young of other species. The survival of the fittest would have told the alligator to eat the turtle. Why should the alligator care for the young of other species?

I read about the author. He is an astounding researcher and made 58 scientific and documentary videos and offered them for free to download. He wrote many books too and I felt motivated to sort of compact all the video links in a website www.efox.tv with a little background about him on top. I thought TV would be nice as because the content is videos.

You are welcome to post your comments about the videos. But please, it is very important that you watch the video you want to talk or comment about.

Thank you and enjoy.

nezmot

Nobody, it's an ingrained process - otherwise known as instinct, or intuition. Many people think behaviours like these have genetically defined precursors.

No it wouldn't.

For the same reasons that other animals tend to look after the young of other species. Namely a genetic propensity to look after things that are underage. Nature is an inexact and imperfect thing, and it's much easier to have a creature feel well disposed to things that have infant features (generally large head and limbs in proportion to the rest of the body) than it is for the creature to recognise creatures that are of the same species (species being an artificial human label applied to various forms of life, and as such, it is a concept completely alien to the alligator).

Come to think of it, does an alligator know it is an alligator? Or staying close to the point in hand, how does it know it's not a turtle? It would make sense for nature to define 'things worth looking after' in terms of general physical characteristics, because that's probably the simplest way of doing it. The upshot of that is that (apparently) strange things happen like alligators looking after turtles, rabbits bringing up fox cubs and ducks bringing up goats.

Analogously, the various optical illusions that our eyes fall prey to are artifacts of nature taking these 'shortcuts' or easy ways out of processing information - yet another proof that all things are not as 'perfect' as some people would imagine them to be.

nanotech

Instinct.. So the alligator carried the turtle child to the water and let it go by instinct.. And the million ant build a giant very well structured building. Very well ventilated air chambers with chimneys long to circulate air so they won't suffocate underground.. And the guardian ants sit and protect the other ants.. All instinct. Ok so who made this instinct? Does a construction worker and an engineer make a building by instinct? How do they know how to design it? How does each ant in a million blind cannot hear ants in a dark no light underground pit know job of each one and where it should work Ok, instinct. But who made this instinct. Natural Selection?

I'm a programmer and I realize there is a complex program behind this. When I compile my program, if there one and only one error, the program won't compile.

And if it compiled due to an overlook feature I would allow then it will not work.

So how come all these ants work in a systematic manner and each one knows its job and what it has to do and where? Who wrote the program in the ants? Natural Selection cannot make programs.

Please watch the video LOVE AND COOPERATION IN LIVING THINGS and you’ll see the amazing termides work in building the structure and that it is not possible that natural selection made this program.

jwoody

Now, I'm not saying there's no such thing as gay animals, I've got a dog, and he'll fuck anything that moves (and a few things that don't), but he got his sexual knowledge through trial and error. I know this for a fact because I watched him every step of the way.

(this is the heavily edited version. Personally, I think you're here to promote your commercial website but I'm prepared to give you the benefit of doubt for the time being)

__________________
.

nezmot

And as for the site being non-biased, you must have missed this part (in the About Us section):

nezmot

It wont compile because programming languages are terse and as a rule contain no redundancy. Now check out your DNA. Non terse and massively redundant.

The same thing goes for your termite mounds and behavioral instincts. In fact it's very simple to evolve and define a limited set of rules that will generate complex and functional structures. No ghosts required.

I look forward to watching these videos once I get home. I will try to maintain an open mind, but I'm afraid that if this is where you are getting your arguments from, I might just sit back and enjoy them for their comedic value.

jwoody

======edited========

__________________
.

nanotech

Error 1: Promote, I have no product to promote
Error 2: commercial, There's nothing commercial about the videos, not even a google ad

I bought the domain maybe a year or 2 ago. You can check in the history of Godaddy. I wasn't using this domain as I have 100 or more domains for my web development work. I chose to give this domain for this subject wiuthout any financial benefit whatso ever because I beleive this subject is very important and the guy who made the videos which I'm posting links to. Has made a great work effort and gave the videos to humanity for free.

I'm surprised at how how after all my debates and time wasted to get the truth more understandable, that you say I'm doing this for a commercial purpose.

nezmot,

I don't know what are you trying to prove. The author used the elements:
1- science ( explorations in current scinece )
2- history (about prophets, scocieties and religions)

in his videos, he referenced text from the Quran because it contained miracles such as the miracle of time (all predictions that are comming true). You can chose what you like it doesn't matter. Evidance and research cannot be called biased.

nezmot

You be the judge, but in the context of the creation vs evolution debate this part sounds a "teeny" bit biased to me:

nanotech

DNA are not terse? How do you know?

A DNA is made of molecules:

Lets say the methods for the ant to work are written in the DNA. A few molecules tell the ant to make a wall. A few molecules tell the ant that the chimney is to be constructed upward that will get air inside the nest.

If the molecules that tell that ant how to build the chimney came by evolution, then the chimney's first versions would have been not correctly functional or not able to get oxygen to the nest. Hence the species would have died. They would have died before having the chance to reproduce and getting a better chimney by natural selection.

nanotech

ok I'll explain, nezmot, there is a difference between biased and conclusion based on science. The author has made tons of research and videos, and after his big research, I think he is entitled to reach a conclusion. One of his conclusions was that God did exist and Darwinisim theory did not create the universe.

So his opinion is based on his research and work, not on ignorant beleif which you might think.

But it doesn't matter, becuase when you see the videos, you'll realize he is a researcher who gets evidence and analyzes. He uses simple logic and deductions based on evidence to reach his conclusions.

nezmot

Nope, you are right - my bad. DNA is terse - with only 4 'words' (AGCT) - but it is massively redundant, meaning that most of the 'program' is junk, which is one reason why it still 'compiles' despite mutation.

The answer to your second question is that to begin with, the ants/termites didn't live in such great big structures. But smaller groups of them would have had to live in smaller, cruder arrangements. By accident, some of these ants might be predisposed to building structures with basic holes in their ceilings, allowing for more creatures to live together (and perhaps for those colonies to reproduce more effectively), but still in fairly crude arrangements. Over time, more happy accidents accumulate, allowing for larger and larger colonies, supported by ever more intricate structures. It's really quite straight-forward when you think about it without any bias.

nezmot

No need to explain, but the mistake you've made is to think that this chap is a scientist, or that he's using scientific arguments. Yes of course he's entitled to reach a conclusion, but to present an entire web site focused on one side of the argument is, by definition, biased.

If he is not biased, then where has he listed all the points in favour of evolution? Where has he listed his references (other than the Qu'ran)? Who's research is he basing his conclusion on?

Da Munk

Evidence isn't biased. Research and the interpretation of the evidence that is found can very well be biased, as it is in this case.

You are free to believe whatever you wish about the origin of life, but nothing you've shown can be considered actual evidence for either the existence of a god or his role in creating life. At best this could be considered evidence that evolutionary theory isn't perfect, but I wouldn't even give it that much credit as much of your arguments seem to be based on a poor understanding of what evolutionary theory actually is. Even if you were to disprove evolution that would not be evidence for creationism, because disproving one theory doesn't make another theory right based only on that fact. Creationism must be taken on faith, and there is nothing wrong with that, but this does make trying to prove it scientifically fairly useless.

nanotech

was it by will that these ants opened the ceilings?

1- if it was by will.. Will is based on knowledge that air is going to be good for the community. How did they get this knowledge.

2- If it was by an accident that the ant knocked of the sand with its foot and air came in, then that information will not be recorded in the DNA for its offspring.

3- If it was by instinct then were did the instinct come from?

=> Therefor the only possibily left is they were programmed.

The author is giving evidence on both sides. For Evolution, he's using the words of Neitchez and Darwin and Hitler (supported evolution) and others.

I'd like to note something that came now to my mind as I remember in one of the videos. Hitler supported evolution so much that made contests to show the british that the germans have bigger brains by getting people randomly and measuring their heads. Small head people were killed because they would be bad for the german evolution. Also disabled people were killed. Hitler made like sex schools where he would put in it femals and males who's heads are big and force them to have sex so that the new german children would have bigger heads.

I think this video is the one titled "The communism" or similar. Has the communist history and evolution topics inside.

nezmot

No, it wasn't by will, and neither was it any of your other options. As I stated initially, and I quote:

Or in easier language, it was an accidendal (mutation) change in the 'program' (the genetically defined behavioral rules) that the ants followed that might have allowed for crude holes to be built into the roofs of their nests.

If you want to follow this all the way up to microbes swimming up chemical gradients, then be my guest - but hopefully you will have figured it out by now.

nezmot

While it seems fair to quote Darwin, why does he quote a Nietzche and Hitler? Those seem like highly biased (and completely inappropriate, and certainly non-scientific) sources to use to describe evolutionary theory. I'm surprised further that he didn't quote any contemporary scientists or biologists. You'd think that might be reasonable. Does he mention Richard Dawkins at any stage?

Jinn

Perhaps you should devote another domain name to the research of evolution. It's absolutely clear to me that you've never taken an anthropology or advanced biology class in your life, from your complete misunderstanding of Synthetic (or hell, even Darwinian) evolution. Your entire argument is based on a logical fallacy called "Begging the question"

While you purport to be asking "questions," I think perhaps you should seek to answer them first yourself before asking others. Asking a question like "How did the ants gain that knowledge" and using a programming metaphor (I too, am a programmer) belies nothing more than a misunderstanding of what evolution is and what it "causes". It is not a sentient being as your God is, but a molding force that passes the successful genetic information down through a population from those who are "successful" (reproduce the most). Failure is not catastrophic, and in fact failures can cascade down generation to generation (much like an omitted semicolon in C-based languages, should you chose to use that metaphor).

So -- my suggestion to you -- read about EVOLUTION, specifically differential reproductive success.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Jinn

wow so you replied quickly above.. I have one thing to say:


GODWIN'd

Yep, Hitler supported evolution (he didn't, in fact he was unable to even bastardize non-contemporary Darwinian evolution) so it MUST be wrong.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

CSflim

Yeay....It's been a while since we had a creationism thread.

__________________

Bill O'Rights

Says the man with the Invisible Pink Unicorn logo as his avatar.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Coppertop

My employer's network blocks www.harunyahya.com.

Hah.

Ustwo

I give the Muslims credit.

While most Christian creationist 'scientists' are very poorly accredited and often down right ignorant of biology and geology, the Muslim equivalent is of higher caliber.

I earned a masters in biology with several Muslim students and they were all looking for ways to prove gods hand in biology. They were very proud that a prominent biologist converted to Islam because he saw the truth in the Quran (last name is Moss, I forget his first name and I never tried to verify the story). They would send little 'proofs' of the divine nature of the Quran to each other in the campus mail.

They still of course fail in the end but often you need to know more about biology to counter some of the arguments.

Also Allah help you if you were a 'secular' Muslim in that group, but that’s another story.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

nanotech

Ah, so much work and deadlines, so little time. Unfortunately, I don't live in the forum 

Man, you are still relying on the thought that tons of mutations can result in new adaptive traits that serve that let the organism survive in its environments. It’s clear you haven't watched the videos. Lets say you spend the next 80 years of your life pouring chemicals on each other, mixing them and playing with them. Do you think you'll come up with a DNA cell or any cell? I'm sure it is not possible. Due to the complex structure of billions of molecules organized in order that contain genetic information which even till now, has not been fully discovered.

Have you watched it? If yes, I think this is the movie about communism. It displays what disasters evolutionists and Darwinists made on humanity. The World Wars is based on the beleif that there was no God and killing became easy.

Btw, this reminds me of a talk in the Hadeeth, the book about the talking of the prophet. One person asked the prophet to tell him of a sign of the end of days. He said "When the Harj will increase". Harj means the increasing of death. It is supposed that in the end of days killing will increase and will be the result of people not believing that God exists and thinking therefore, no judgment. This will be the last days, after the Golden Age. Estimated length of the Golden Age to be 3000 years. That’s just something I remembered that relates here and I thought I would mention it. Btw, there’s a video about the Golden Age.

Since I reached this subject, let me tell about the Golden Age. This is the last age where poverty will be null. The earth will yield its crop 7 times. Everything will be plenty. Technology, food, energy, comfort to unexpectedly high extent. Human beings will be blessed like no other time. I think its sort of the "climax" of humanity, the major blessing before the end.



Welcome to this thread, my questions had the answer in the question.

1- How did they get this knowledge?
They cannot obtain that knowledge by themselves. Someone must have given it to them.
2- No question
3- If it was by instinct then were did the instinct come from?
It was given or programmed in them

You’re welcome

Too bad, what can I say. These videos were really fun and informative. Islam is not a "non traditional" religion, if this has a meaning. I hope I can upload the videos on to the website I made directly. So you can get them from there.

Thank you, I also hope that Christians also can help with proofs. After all, we, humans, have the same genetic design so we must have been created by the same cause.


Its nice to know that you have met muslims, I'm sure they had helpful and non hostile attitude. The false advertisement of muslims as terrorists and bombers is sick. I don't think these people who blew up a church and killed are real muslims. Islam is a religion of peace and forgiveness. I condone all the acts of killing and bombing and I personally think its some kind of conspiracy by groups that wear masks and hide their faces and dress like muslims and try to do bad things and hurt innocent people; so as to portray a bad picture of islam.


They fail in university? That’s weird. Most people I knew who were with me in the 2 years engineering I studied and who prayed were honor students. And the university was tough. So tough that 50% of the engineering students in the first year, had to shift majors. Was kind of making me think, was God rewarding them for being good? I think so.

Thanks, Allah is helping me through work and life. I don't know what secular means but if this relates, I would say that I am a man of peace and pray to God and respect all religions.

Btw, I like your logo. Agent smith is my favorite actor in the Matrix movies. Probably I like him because he is always patient and logical no matter how much problems he has to solve.

General Q: so did you guys enjoy the movies?

nezmot

80 years? Perhaps not. How about 4 billion? I'm sorry, but you really don't have any idea what you're talking about. What the (laughable) videos do is show up that their creator has as little imagination and failure to comprehend the facts of life as you have.

I'm not 'relying' on the idea that tons of mutations can result in new adaptive traits - I've explained to you how it works, and how not only will it result in new adaptive traits, but how it will have very likely been responsible for all life on earth. And you've just ignored what I said. You certainly have not thought about, or analysed it. If you are so open minded, then how come you haven't spotted that the videos don't counter these specific arguments, they simply avoid them.

nezmot

One interesting thread in some of these is the idea of 'perfection' and how miraculous everything is, and, since Allah is perfect, only he could have made such perfection.

As a programmer, you ought to be able to see the flaw in this circular logic.

As a human being, with experience of the world, you ought to be able to see the flaw in the premise (i.e. the world is not perfect, humans are not perfect, nature is not perfect)

The inability to understand something does not mean that something else must be true.

But that's enough for me - I've enjoyed this little diversion, it's been fun. Peace be with you.

tecoyah

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Nimetic

It's bloody rude of you to post this under the heading "scientific videos".

I have a bunch of science books (and videos), and I wouldn't try to pass them off as religion. Are you truly blind to the accepted differences between religion philosophy and science - or do you simply not care about pissing people off?

tecoyah

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

nanotech

That’s very difficult to know. It needs an advanced math formula to prove it that 4 billion years can do it. We cannot see a computer made by nature. Nature cannot create a computer, or a memory or any chip. So how can it create creatures which are thousands of times more complex? Nature cannot create nor evolution. Evolution can advance species with already existing genetic information. I hope you can watch the video “collapse of Darwinism” which contains both points of view to be fully objective. It shows how many scientific discoveries turned out to be forgeries like the pilt down man.

Yes, this not a perfect world. However God created creatures perfectly suited to their environment and life. Nature is so balanced. The ozone layer, the volcano that makes O3 ozone, the biological cycle and resources of earth being fully balanced, all these and more are what God gave humans. It is not the job of God to make everything perfect for humans. But thanks for mentioning this subject because I mentioned in a thread why not everything is perfect and what is the purpose of life:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...4&page=2&pp=40

So we could have come from viruses but that is a small percentage. It’s a hypothesis by one man, not a worldwide theory yet. Have you heard of the pilt down man scandal? Or the Fraud of Haeckel's Embryos?

Haueckel was a darwinist who made a graph to show that all embryos of different types of animals and humans came from one source. Then it turned out to be fake. The Haeckel modified the drawings of the emberyos to make it look like humans and animals are the same in the beginning and to support the theory that evolution is what changed animal to man.

The pilt down man scandal: Around 1913, an English scientist came up with a skeleton of an ape head size was big. This was a great pride for the British as they believed that the man came from the ape and that the English ape man had bigger brain. They concluded that the English man was smarter and the person who discovered it was given a knight honor by the queen. 40 years later, it turned out to be a scandal. Keneth Oakly, after a lot of inspection, discovered in 1953 that the so called pilt down man was in fact a human skull attached to an arongotan jaw (type of gorrilla or ape).

This can all be found in the video, "collapse of Darwinism" in Harun Yahya videos. So can we just beleive now that man came from viruses because a scientist said so? Too hard to beleive. No evidence of evolution has been made. No trans human species has been found. There is an insect which i don't know its name, that has a long body, and lived millions of years ago and is still living now. It has the same complexity. Evolution has not changed its complexity or added a new part to it.

Nimetic, all this abundant of free information given to you and all you say is it’s rude? All 58 videos about data, sightings from the book, predictions 1400 years ago, histories of nations and scientific deductions, and free information given…

Science, the Quran is not a book of science; it is the book of God. But it has scientific information only discovered with the 20th century technology. The videos use the method of deduction. Deduction is a method in science.

When he shows you what happened for example to the perished nations, and then the archeologists find traces of what happens, and he shows you it is written in the Quran, and he tells you about the messengers that came to those perished nations, and what happened to them exactly as described. It’s a deduction method that leads to the answer that God is who made all that. Deduction is a scientific method so don’t worry, there’s science.

I also care about other people. That’s why I came here. Why would I give all this info and evidence and videos when I can simply spend the time on my own work? Why should I care? I do care about the fact that I have knowledge that I have to share.

In the video, “full collapse of Darwinism”, you can see an interviewer interviewing well known professor Richard Dawkins, an important pro Darwinist. He asked him to give an example of new organs that came to an animal via evolution. The professor just sat still and could not answer.

CSflim

Most of this isn't worth responding to. But I just want to point out that the reason Dawkins didn't answer is because he was pissed off as he had been tricked. Dawkins flat out refuses to engage in debates with creationists, as it gives the subject an air of legitimacy which it does not have. The creators of this were dishonest in their approach to Dawkins, and if they had revealed their true motives to them, he would have turned down the interview. You can read Dawkin's version of events in 'A Devil's Chaplain'.

If you actually want to read Dawkins give an example of a new organ that arose through evolution, I suggest you read pretty much any of his thoroughly wonderful books (e.g. Climbing Mount Improbable), and you will be treated to dozens of such examples.


On a lighter note - I find it kinda funny, that I have just completed a personal study on the spontaneous emergence of altruism in a simulated environment (an "agent based model"), and being thoroughly impressed with how easy it is for altruism to arise. Now I come across a thread boldly asserting that because altruism exists, creationism must be true.

__________________