xepherys

Hopefully this is the right forum for this (it IS about how we get along in society)...

Why is it that the idea of prejudice against a majority is non-existant? Why can you have an all black college, but not an all white college? Why can you offer scholarships ONLY to blacks, hispanics and native americans, but not ONLY to white, middle-class males? It's very hypocrtical, very much against the foundation of our country (in the USA at least) and quite counter-productive in our day and time.

Argument #1: Our country was founded on freedom and liberty. If I want to start a higher education facility for white males, aged 18-25 whose household income is $75,000-150,000 exculsively, than it should be my legal and moral right to do so. (No, I don't want to)

Argument #2: The same goes for business. If I were a small business owner, something like Affirmative Action would REALLY piss me off. Even as a non-business owner it still upsets me. Even many black activist/rights groups denounce this measure. In the long run, it can help, in some cross-sections of the country, to breed new racism (people don't like other groups of people who are assured special treatment under the law).

Argument #3: Native Americans? I'm about 1/16th Native... not much by any thought. Regardless I don't get the whole casinos, preservations, hunting/fishing license, college money aspect of this. They were, just like any other through history, a conquered people. They were conquered through trickery, slaughter and warfare... isn't that how ANY conquered people gets to be that way? I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's how the world turns. Should the Egyptians have given free money to the Jews? Do you think the Spanish sent their conquered peoples to the local universities? COme on!!!

Argument #4: You could have a black, female only scholarship fund and you'd do just fine. If you started a white, male only fund, you'd likely be sued, protested and threatened.


Now, for the record, I am not racist or a biggot in any fashion. Actually, frankly, I just hate almost everyone because I think people are stupid sheep. But it has nothing to do with race or disposition. However, I'm curious why this double-standard exists, and even gets worse over time? Doesn't this BROADEN the gap between races in our country? I simply don't see how any of these things are positive movements towards united peace. I speak mostly about blacks (African-Americans) because I am most familiar with their situations and benefits (grew up in the Detroit area). Black people in England get none of these special treatments, they talk and act and live and work just like any other Brit. Sure, there was slavery here... a LONG time ago. Why can't people get over and move on... it doesn't directly affect ANYONE living these days. White people, black people... all the people need to pluck their heads from their backsides and get over the past. The only way to move forward is to turn your back to what's behind you!

roboshark

Well, usually, it's the *minorities* that need assistance to make it a world presided over by an otherwise unfriendly/uninterested *majority*. And it's probably an historical thing too.

But I can see your point

CoachAlan

I would very much prefer that minorities no longer be allowed to discriminate, rather than whites be once again allowed to discriminate.

The reason you couldn't open a "White College" is because a college, even if private, is an institution that is supposed to operate for the common good. As such, it gets tax benefits and other government benefits. These benefits come with the caveat that discrimination will not be tolerated. That's why the Boy Scouts were sued for not allowing gays.

That said, it's definitely wrong in my opinion that minorities can get away with it. Black colleges, and, even more, BET, only serve to further divide people. Their very existence makes the statement that "Black people are different, and we need our own institutions to accomodate that difference."

PEOPLE are different. But the amount of melanin in a person's skin is not what makes that difference. The sooner we get past these superficial and antiquated segregations, the better.

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k1ng

Very well said, Coach. I was going to say something similar, but you said it better than I was going to, so there's not much else for me to add.

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animosity

I have been saying this for years... I dont really have anything to add. I just hate inconsistencies. It makes me want to start WET & NAAWP...

*sighs* I guess I just hate everyone and everything.

braindamage351

It IS completely wrong. These things should be for poor people, not for individual races. It's not hard to determine that someone is poor. But it doesn't matter whether you're rich or poor. Minorities took a public service program and twisted it to benefit themselves more than is fair.

theusername

No one should ever be judged by the color of their skin.

I believe that's something MLK Jr preached....

I always say advantages should be given based on economics not race/religion/ethnicity but until others like me rise up and realize how ridiculous this current system is it will not change.

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Johnny Rotten

The United States is, despite it's venerable Constitution, the most white-oriented nation in the Western world. The United Kingdom achieved its present state by shedding bigotry and ingorance, not by black people getting over themselves.

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wilbjammin

Um... several hundreds of slavery and institutionalized barriers to success.

I think the real issue now is more about making adjustments for poverty, not race (even though there is institutionalized racism in many parts of the American system).

Just a note, there are scholarships for descendents of the Mayflower, Sons of Liberty, and other white-only historically important groups.

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slimshaydee

But why...

Jesus Pimp

I don't like white people. There I said it

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redarrow

Personally, I am against minorities. I agree that these scholarship funds and such should be directed toward the poor and underprivilaged. In many cases the poor and underprivilaged are white, but because they cannot get a scholarship they remain poor, while poor minorities recieve scholarships and are no longer poor.

whocarz

What do you mean, you are against minorities?

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redarrow

Not the people who belong to them, just the fact that they exist.

Why do they exist? Cant people just get over the fact that some people are better than others?

Manic_Skafe

Whether that was meant to be funny or not, I chuckled.

I haven't been here long but this discussion has been had several times and has taken several different forms. It all boils down to, fighting fire with fire.

Regardless of the circumstance, exclusionary privlidges do very little if anything at all towards evening the playing feild and they promote the solidification of nonexistent differences in people's minds.

But you have to bear in mind that these minorites, were and are still shortchanged by this society and these colleges are usually nothing more than people trying to right the wrongs of the past.

The poor should get what they need and the jobless should be given work but the idea behind affirmative action is to give people a shot in a place that they couldn't get to on their own. If you look at the neighborhoods of America, far too many of them are seperated by lines of race - lines so deep that they can maintain economic disadvantages for a long time...putting a person where they aren't wanted is a bad idea but I really don't see another way to tackle the issue. The gov't could create jobs in impoverished areas but that'd still do nothing for the lines of segregation in people's minds.

...there's more to say but I haven't had much sleep and I doubt anyone understands a word I'm saying....

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cartmen34

Good show Coach. Well stated indeed! (And I couldn't agree more!!)

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rukkyg

Holy crap, bigot alert!

rukkyg

Go right ahead. Just don't expect anyone to hire anyone who graduated from that college. Don't expect any federal funding or support from the college board or similar institutions either. And rightly so.

The average black man will never make as much as the average white man until average white men are forced to hire them and pay them as much as they pay themselves.
Although I have no idea what your argument here is, I will say that ignoring the conquered is the biggest mistake you can make.
When the Roman empire was half the world, every part of the empire was equal. Most people probably didn't notice the difference (except perhaps religious belief enforcement.) That empire lasted a long time.
After world war I, germany was ignored and punished greatly creating mass poverty... hence:
World war II. After this war, through the marshall plan, the US spent billions of dollars to rebuild europe. Now germany is one of our closest allies. (Same thing with Japan).
[quote]Argument #4: You could have a black, female only scholarship fund and you'd do just fine. If you started a white, male only fund, you'd likely be sued, protested and threatened.[/quore]
But to no end. There's plenty of scholarships that will only ever go to a white person until major changes occur. Corporations that give scholarship to the managers' or vice presidents' sons and daughters will go to perhaps 1 or 2 black children every 10 years. White people OWN this world.

Blacks and other minorities can have their little scholarships and television channels. Who do you think gave it to them? Other blacks? The people in charge (rich white men) gave it to them. They encourage things like BET and rap music that segregate the country and keep black youths thinking that reading isn't cool.

I used to agree with you that these things weren't fair to white people. Now I couldn't agree with you more when you say they shouldn't exist. But don't delude yourself in to thinking that it helps black americans. It helps the people who made it so: white americans.

FYI: I'm white, male, 20, and from the lower middle class of a suburb of Philadelphia. My views changed when I read this: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...68634?v=glance

NoSoup

I agree with your sentiments - I believe wholeheartedly that until the government stops defining race based on biased lending, laws, grants, ect it will be impossible for people to do so as well.

As far as that quote goes, however, African American is likely on of the most retarded Policially Correct terms out there. First off, it assumes that they are an American - I had a black friend of mind from London and he was pretty incredulous that he was suddenly an "African-American".... secondly, it assumes that they trace their heritage back to Africa. That same friend traced his history back as far as he possibly could and it seems that his family began in Europe.

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NoSoup

Actually, this whole subject annoys me so much you guys get to read some more of my ranting

I understand the reasons behind affirmative action - initially created to help with the desegregation process. However, that should be behind us now. The fact of the matter is, if you take a family that is currently living below the poverty line that is <insert minority here> they have a far better chance of succeeding than a family in the exact same circumstances that is white. I say this because there are countless programs out there, especially when it comes to education, to help minorities - but none specifically out there for whites, and whites only.

For people to say that white people OWN this world is the most (no offence, my opinion only) ignorant thing that one could possibly utter. Certainly, there are plenty of rich white people out there, but there are also plenty of other rich people that are not white. White people aren't just automatically rich - they work just as hard as any other color out there.

As far as the original posters sentiment regarding "conquered people" I would have to agree. In fact, I would extend it to all historical customs/wars. I firmly believe that anyone that was alive through any such event should be generously compensated, but I don't believe that the great-great-great grandchildren of slaves should recieve large sums of money from the government. Slavery was a terrible, terrible thing, but it's over now - we need to move on. Certainly, there are still repercussions that still exist in society today from slavery, but we need to fix on working on those as a society, not handing out money and hoping it will all be better. I feel similarily towards Native Americans and any other people that continue to get a "free ride" based on what happened to their ancestors.

Now, before I upset people - I am not saying that simply because you are <insert minority here> that you are the scum of the universe for taking assistance or accepting the "free ride." If I was in your situation, I most certainly would do the same, and encourage everyone to utilize any edge that they can get to improve their quality of life.

The government, however, is where the problem lies. Until I stop seeing the mandatory "check what race you are" on every government for I fill out, and laws do not discriminate based on race, I will not be completely satisfied. As it sits, there are tons of programs out there for minorities that assist in paying for college, it is more difficult for white people to obtain a mortgage loan, and business are given tax breaks for hiring non-whites - when in reality they should simply choose the best person for the job.

Alas, thanks for reading my rant, you may now continue with your scheduled posting

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xepherys

Why do you say that? First, people who might be inherently racist would hire those people above anyone else right off the bat. Not that it's an argument FOR such an institution, but it immediately shoots down your argument. Secondly, why should that matter? Look at the Ivy League schools. They are EXTREMELY primarily white, it doesn't stop people from hiring out of them. I don't understand the argument you make.


Ahh... well, maybe in America. Remember, this problem does not plague black people the world over. Besides which, women complain about the same thing. But aside from minimum wage laws, there are no laws which require blacks or women or any other set or subset of "minorities" to get paid any certain amount. Again, not sure what this has to do with the initial argument. However, I'd have to disagree with you anyhow. If you are black, and get a Harvard law degree, you will make the same nice six figures that the white guy did and the asian guy did. If you're black and you get a Valvoline certification in Oil Change Mechanics, you'll make the same chump change that the white guy or the hispanic guy doing the same thing will. *shrug* I think your argument stems solely from perspective.



I'm not saying to ignore them. I'm saying to not treat their third and fourth and fifth (and further) generation decendants specially. That a) promotes hatred (or dislike) with some because it IS unfair and b) is a poor use of government funds and tax dollars.



Hmmm, so you just upended your own arguments as far as I can tell. If this is the case, I doubt the rich black men (rap musicians, producers, et cetera) are terribly upset about it all. So then by allowing them to be "special" they continue segregation? That was MY point to begin with. Allowing groups of people to have special situations only widens the gap between people. That's what I was arguing against the whole time. Maybe you and a few others thought I was arguing FOR proprietary white supremacy groups. If that's the case, you'd be dead wrong. I'm arguing AGAINST any special considerations for ANYONE, including white, middle-class males aged 18-36 (or whatever the stupid demographic is).



NoSoup, I know you wrote a lot more, and I enjoyed reading the post... this was just my favorite part!


Well, this is true, but as I mentioned, black people throughout the world tend to get much LESS hassle then black people in America. The anti-black sentiment is much stronger here, and if your friend from London disagrees, have them live in Alabama or Georgia for a few months then ask again. I think PC is bullsh*t anyways, I just used it for the sake of the post and nothing more. If you're offended by the N word or anything else, get over it. A friend of mine (white female) teaches at a charter school in Detroit. A black student called her (in an angry fashion) a cracker. She had never heard the term, brought it up to another teacher and was informed of it's "derogatory" nature. The student got suspended. The end result is... WHO CARES? If I call you a dick-headed, retarded, fascist piece of crap, the only reason it might offend you is because you choose to let it. Get over it?! I know, neither here nor there... just another irritating thing that helps keep people apart.

braindamage351

[QUOTE=rukkyg]Go right ahead. Just don't expect anyone to hire anyone who graduated from that college. Don't expect any federal funding or support from the college board or similar institutions either. And rightly so.


The average black man will never make as much as the average white man until average white men are forced to hire them and pay them as much as they pay themselves.

Although I have no idea what your argument here is, I will say that ignoring the conquered is the biggest mistake you can make.
When the Roman empire was half the world, every part of the empire was equal. Most people probably didn't notice the difference (except perhaps religious belief enforcement.) That empire lasted a long time.
After world war I, germany was ignored and punished greatly creating mass poverty... hence:
World war II. After this war, through the marshall plan, the US spent billions of dollars to rebuild europe. Now germany is one of our closest allies. (Same thing with Japan).
I hate to break it to you, but everything Michael Moore does is total crap. It's good for proving a point by twisting facts, but it's absolute crap when it comes to the truth, and makes for a terrible reference. Face it, they created BET because a lot of black people like rap, and if there's pure rap all the time they won't change the channel. They capitalized on a chance to make money, it's not some social segregation conspiracy.

If you want an example of Moore's crap, just google up a page that critiques "Fahrenheit 9/11". EVERYTHING in the movie is crap. There were about two valid criticisms in the whole damn movie. Everything else was twisting facts and movies.