Strange Famous

I am thinking of this question in terms of every day interaction, rather than things in which looks could or ought to make a difference (like approaching someone in a bar and trying to chat them up,etc)

In terms of interaction in which how someone looks ought not make a jot of difference, does it for you?
_

I cant deny that I do treat people differently on this basis, in terms of how I act, react, how likely I am to do something they ask. In every sense I know it is wrong and immature, but if a colleague at work who is pretty asks me to do something for them that isnt really my job, I probably end up doing it. If a guy asked me I probably tell them no.

In no sense (genuinely) because I expect to get anything out of it. But if someone is attractive I simply react more positively/subserviantly. I know I do and can tell myself doing it, but I can't stop myself doing it.

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for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

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KirStang

I uncontrollably hump pretty peoples' legs when they talk to me. Can't help it.

But I find myself very very self conscious around pretty women. Good looking guys, not so much. I think it's also in the way you carry yourself. My tort law professor has a way of making you want to thank him as he shafts you. It's an amazing skill.

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ASU2003

I agree with this. I can talk to any guy with no problems now (before 'successful' ones were better than me). But really attractive women, I don't trust. Really ugly women I wouldn't want to be seen talking to in a romantic way (but I'm still nice), so that leaves the middle.

And unavailable women are a little easier to talk to.

Charlatan

I am (sadly) effected by this. At least initially, good looking people tend to put me at ease. It is only with time and context that I can relax around less attractive people. It's funny, even though I am aware of this, I find myself falling under this pre-conceived notion, every time.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Willravel

As someone who has been overweight and then in decent shape, I've personally found that the effect of good looks on my perception of someone is directly proportional to my own self-confidence. If I'm feeling confident, in a healthy, non-egotistical way, the favorable appearance of another person will have little effect on my overall perception of and thus interaction with that person. If I have lower self-esteem, particularly pertaining to my own physical state, I seem more prone to add more weight (no pun intended) to the appearance of other people in my overall perception of them.

Martian

I don't think it's the attractiveness itself so much as (and not to parrot others, but) the confidence that comes along with it.

Act confident and in charge, people will naturally follow you. They'll assume you know something or have something they don't, and just let you do your thing.

People who are less attractive and know it tend to be more shy and less confident. They don't make eye contact as often, they speak softly, they project hesitance and uncertainty. This makes people unwilling or unable to let them direct conversation or interactions.

People who are attractive and know it, on the other hand, are generally not afraid of drawing attention to themselves. They tend to have better posture, tend to keep their head up and meet the gaze of others more frequently, project their voices more and so on.

The interesting edge case is folks who are not attractive and think they are (or conversely, folks who are objectively attractive and don't realize it). How do you react to someone who is good looking, but shy and awkward? Do you find that you tend to assume a dominant or submissive role in interactions? And what do you think influences your behaviour most?

These are, as typical, just my observations.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Willravel

This is interesting. It's been my experience that folks can pick up on forced or insincere confidence. Honest confidence isn't something that one has to act out consciously, it's as much a part of one's personality as other fundamental traits. I suppose in a confidence vacuum, forcing it is better than nothing, though.

Martian

Have you ever heard the phrase 'fake it til you make it?'

Confidence can absolutely be faked convincingly. In fact, I would estimate that even subject matter experts are faking it a minimum of 15% of the time.*

Poorly sold confidence is easily detectable, but then that's not really confidence at all, now is it?

* based on personal experience. Bullshitometer reading: high

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Plan9

Is this the Hot or Not thread?

...

I kinda disagree with Martian here. I think good looks offer an incredibly fleeting social bonus. They're not charisma.

First: What's attractive? I mean, attractiveness is such a broad, subjective topic. Electrodes-on-the-head SCIENCE! has shown that people tend to find physically fit people with high levels of body symmetry (especially the face) more attractive than others. The definition of being handsome or beautiful changes, but being a masculine male and feminine female tends to help. From the judging-your-peers side, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that there aren't too many American males that would say that popular big name movie stars like Christian Bale / Denzel Washington / Brad Pitt are unattractive.

I see this as separate from from looks. Example: Steven Tyler. He looks like a fucking muppet. My exwife said she would have to screw him if the chance presented itself. I asked her, "Why him of all people?" "It's not what he looks like, it's what he does." Also, there is that thread I posted a year or two back that had that survey/study/whatever findings to do with higher marriage satisfaction / success rates in couples where the woman was substantially more attractive than the man. This might be another symptom of "All Women Must Be Beautiful," but I see it as useful in this thread because we obviously have different standards for success if a 5 Star woman marries a 3 Star man and they're some kind of no-shit really-happy epic power couple.

Vast generalizations that I find to be incorrect. I have mediocre looks at best. I've been told that I'm unattractive by both women and men and it's probably because I'm the second worst combination of male features: really scrawny with weak facial features. I know I look really awkward regardless of what I'm doing or how I'm doing it simply based on my physical features. This doesn't change the fact that I can make eye contact like an interrogator and I'm not afraid to make sure everybody in a room can hear me. I know a lot of dudes like this: kinda bland on the outside and a wrecking crew on the inside. They're military guys. I think it's a cop out to say pretty boys are more assertive. I've seen plenty of timid pussies with lucky facial geometry. Pit average looking guys against the more attractive guys on TFP, for example. I think confidence has more to do with upbringing and training than looks for most people. Looks don't hurt obviously, but that's like saying changing a product's packaging makes the product experience better for everyone. Initial interest vs. longevity. That leads into "attractive in the first 10 seconds, attractive after the first 10 minutes" thing. I've met plenty of women that were smoking hot at first glance. Given a conversation and a closer look, underneath the makeup and push-up bra and facade of confidence brittle enough to break with a single joke about their waistline is someone who is ugly on the inside (lack of confidence), but only because they believe it. We are what we do and that's based on what we believe. I haven't let people telling me that I'm built like a goofy cartoon character keep me from doing X, Y and Z.

Baraka, Charlatan, Skafe and other TFP guys may be more attractive, but they can't do PowerPoint presentation in front of 100 people like me.

Again, this is attitude. Real confidence? Fake confidence? Who's puffed up on bullshit? Who's really got the giant brass balls?

You know who's got confidence? The ugly motherfucker that knows he's ugly and is okay with it. He compensates for it.

...

Ugh, I totally pulled a Xerxys and got lost along the way while writing all this drivel, but I hope I made some useful points. I'm tired.

I guess if you define attractiveness as a still image of a person in comparison to other people it's pretty straightforward.

It's a much, much larger conversation when you start interacting with people, though.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

snowy

I'm tired just reading it...but the "pulled a Xerxys" made me laugh.

OK, even when I was chubby, I wasn't exactly what you would call ugly. The extra weight gave me more ass to work with, certainly, and I worked it. I think using what you've got is the critical piece here. It isn't just a matter of confidence. It's a matter of recognizing what you have that works, and making it work for you, drawing attention to it. Hell, I used to be quite the dude magnet before I shacked up with my man. I could go out to the bars and talk any number of poor suckers into buying me double Bombay Sapphire martinis.

Personally, I'm just as likely to listen to you, whether or not you're attractive. I work with a lot of different kinds of folks. Some of them are damn ugly on the outside, but pretty on the inside. And that's why I'm likely to listen. I want to know if you're pretty on the inside Take 9er: he may be scrawny, but he has a good heart.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Martian

Wall of Text!

'Scool. It is not TL and I did in fact R.

...

Easy bit out of the way first: OP specifies physical attractiveness. Imagine a picture of a pretty person. That's who we're talking about.

...

Sure I'm making generalizations; I'm doing what those fancy book-learnin people call extrapolating. I'm not going to claim that it's true 100% of the time for 100% of the people, but I don't think it's exactly controversial to say that physically beautiful people are as a whole more likely to be outgoing and confident than the uggos. I mean, c'mon. They're uggos.

I don't know if anyone even still uses that bit of slang these days.

I would argue that the military is a subset and probably not a representative sample of the human race as a whole. The guys who aren't uber-self assured self-styled mean mother fuckers on their way into the army are whipped into shape relatively quickly. There may or may not be pretty boys in the armed forces -- James Blunt somewhat famously served in Kosovo and was by reports far more of a badass than anyone who writes shitty pop music for a living has a right to be. Regardless, everyone gets the same training. I mean, that's the point, right? Train a bunch of nameless fierce sonsabitches who will fight and die for (insert country/cause here). You're not going to get results by teaching them all to talk about feelings.

Granted I know slightly less than Hollywood about what actual military life is like, but this seems like a reasonable assumption.

Anyway, I think you got it backwards. I'm not saying that you have to be good looking to be confident, or ugly to be timid. All I'm saying is that we tend to give more concessions to folks who are more confident, and that beautiful people tend to be more confident. They trend in that direction, if you prefer. It's not universal, but it's something that in my experience at least seems to hold true more often than not.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Plan9

Assholes.

Hmph, I see how it is... either I've started emulating our dear departed Host or you guys need to take your friggin' ADHD meds.

I mean, I'm not actually writing like Xerxys yet. This is assuming you can look beyond my criminal use of run-on sentences.

...

And I get your point. Holding a picture of an attractive person in your hand and going, "Wow, I bet they're more confident than a Level 91 Lives-With-Mom WOW troll." ...but what's ugly? It's easy for us to picture an attractive person. Who is this stereotypical ugly person? I can't think of too many, honestly. I'm really trying here. Taking my coworkers as a sample, I'd have to say that none of them are legitimately ugly even if the overwhelming majority of us are average looking. Who is decisive enough to find me an example of someone that is genuinely ugly? I'm obviously not ruthless enough.

It's easy to give everybody on Hot or Not a 6 or 7. I want to see the people that actually deserve to get a 3.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Charlatan

My understanding was that this was a first impressions kind of thing.

Confidence, is not always a first impression thing. Rather, it takes a bit of interaction to understand that someone, regardless of how they look, is confident. I can give examples of externally attractive people that I have come to hate interacting with because they are so uncomfortable with themselves.



By the way... I am not a big user of powerpoint (I see it as a crutch) but I am a very good speaker and could easily face down 100 Plan9s.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

MrFriendly

Hmmmm,

While I'm on the confidence-is-key band wagon, I don't think attractive looks can be dismissed.

I know in myself that I've often treated people differently upon first introduction because of their looks. But this has always been a result of my very own insecurities.

A number of people commented in the past that I have my own brand of attractive and sexy, but I've always been dogged by my own shyness and lack of self confidence that I've never really been about to 'attract' someone in the holistic sense of the word. Interestingly enough, a couple of times where women have been very flirty with me or just out right hitting on my is when ridiculously hungover and just couldn't give a flying fuck about anything or anyone. Too tired to be self conscious I guess you could say.

How you see yourself will directly influence how you see others and how others see you. I absolutely believe that. I've met girls who weren't the most attractive specimens who I'd fuck in a heart beat because of their personality, and I've met girls who are classic 'hot' who I couldn't fucking stand to be around. But, I'll admit, this is after first glance. I'm honest with myself enough to admit that yes, at first glance looks will affect how I approach someone, but not for very long.

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You are not a slave

Bonkai

I don't or seldom react favorable or unfavorably to a person just based on there looks, especially not in the work place. I find it much easier to work with people if I judge/treat them as a "work-family", not to say I don't have certain opinions on each individuals attractiveness, I just don't allow that to effect my output.

noodle

My external responses are rarely affected by how attractive I find a person. I deal with people who are disfigured or dealing with chemo, etc. and I try to respond the same way that I would talk with anyone else, including people I find attractive. I've been told my coworkers and friends that I am successful at this most of the time. These "attractive people" not being famous people or whatnot... if that was the case, I'm not sure what the effect would be. However, I have had a lot of experiences lately with wholly externally attractive people that open their mouths and/or expose their personality whom I just want to bitch slap and walk away. So I try to start off treating everyone the same. Your internal attractiveness is what affects my interactions.

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bagatelle

"There are no ugly people - some people are just easier to look at."

This is an interesting topic and there are many "correct" answers.

I'm off to work soon (to study this topic a bit more ) so I only post "briefly".

Looks is certainly first impression thing, but I would also join the confidence band-wagon when speculating this further.

I have to say, to my shame, that similarly to the OP, I find chubby people less attractive to talk to. Chubbiness affects me more than looks, because I find human face very interesting. I'm very curious about people's expressions.

Sometimes I think that maybe this also may be reason, people are "attracted" to you. If you show curiosity towards them in a positive way, they find it easier to approach and there's this confidence thing. But then again I've found some people avoiding too sharp look at them.

There's also one thing that affects me: how close this person is to my personal comfort zone. If they get too close physically or in some other way invade this territory of mine (stalking/observing), they might not be that welcome.

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Ourcrazymodern?

I can't help my pupils expanding to devour eye candy, but I don't think I disregard anybody at first sight.

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Zeraph

well there's a difference between attractiveness and being good looking. I'm a guy and may see another good looking guy, doesn't mean I'll do him favors. Now an attractive woman on the other hand...

I remember in high school. A friend asked why I was helping a girl out and not him on an assignment. I said, "because she has boobies and you don't."

Although the extremes do matter. A very unattractive man I might ignore (think looking homeless and crazy). Whereas an attractive man I might be more nice to. Kind of depends on how aware I am of my actions at the time.

mixedmedia

Good looks don't affect my interactions with people at all.

I'm gonna suppose that my not growing up during a time period where 'externally attractive' people were crammed down my throat via assorted media channels 10-12 hours a day has something to do with this. Way back in the old days when I was a kid, the teevee was populated not only with a bunch of pretty people, but plenty of normal looking people with normal looking skin and teeth, too. I know it sounds scary, but to us it was completely, um, normal. And it allowed us to accept the fact that people with truly beautiful visages were fairly rare therefore it wasn't nearly as imperative to stuff, pump, suck and stitch ourselves into vaguely attractive awkward-looking people things. Which is what you see on the teevee today - the truly beautiful and their regrettably disfigured facsimiles.

/end old people's rant.

But yeah, it has never occurred to me to treat two people differently just because one of them doesn't have facial features as aesthetically pleasing. I do notice beautiful women, much more than men, but it doesn't affect how I interact with them. Basically, I treat everyone the same. And if someone looks me in the eye and it belies something interesting going on in there, then they get my full attention and outer looks become totally irrelevant.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Zeraph

I call BS there. If that's true you must be near a saint. I don't think I'm as old as you but when I was younger (and still do) I watched a lot of old comedy, especially british like monty python. So I saw the same normal people as you on teevee.

Its in our genetics to treat better looking people better. There's been tons of studies done to prove it.

Not calling you a liar, but you must be on a transcendent level if that's really the case.

mixedmedia

Um, no not transcendent. Just not hung up on looks.

I find it pretty funny, though, that you have characterize me as this extraordinary person in order to rationalize your own personal responses to people. I think I'm hardly the only person in the world who feels the same way.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Zeraph

I'm going off of peer reviewed studies. The effects are sub-conscious. I have a feeling you do treat people differently and don't realize it.

I'm not hung up on looks either. Doesn't mean I'm immune to the effect.

mixedmedia

sheesh, dude. Are you seriously going to sit there wherever you are and claim that you have a feeling about whether I understand my own impulses or not?

Peer reviewed studies that apparently, to you, make absolute statements about the inclinations of mankind aside, I do make distinctions amongst people, but it is not based on appearance - such as facial beauty. You're just going to have to take my word for it. Or not.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Zeraph

Well congratulations. You are better than 98% of mankind. Breed well. Your offspring should hopefully inherit such useful traits. Do you have anything that would be genetically bad for offspring? If not I suggest you breed breed breed, and then donate your eggs.

mixedmedia

You seem to be very defensive about this. Let me point out that I have never said or suggested that interacting with people based on their looks is indicative of bad character nor have I tried to suggest that people who don't are somehow better than you. Get a grip.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

jewels

Besides, she's far from alone. And you can count me in as a breeder.

If you bother to read the posts from the fair gender in this thread, most of us aren't as judgmental as some guys can be.

As for the peer-reviewed studies, are you talking about a good looking woman in a bar as opposed to a less attractive female?

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howlingwolves

I think that the vast majority of people are influenced by looks, to one degree or another...I know I am. I don't like to admit it, because I know how shallow it sounds, but it's the truth.

Plan9

Since we're going down the shallow path here:

What if "good looking" is a comparison in the case of the MUFF?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

noodle

Hey! As a former Muff, I can agree that 75% of the world treats the not-so-attractive person differently. But there are people that are attractivity-blind. Because they're not focused on it, because it doesn't matter given the reason for the interaction, or because they just don't fucking care what you look like. I got hit on less, I had people drop doors in my face, whatever... I didn't care. I still make it a point to smile at every person I come across and say good morning or whatnot, regardless of their looks, because it makes nasty people do a double-take, less attractive people feel better, and my sarcastic side feel significantly more self-important. So what?

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Baraka_Guru

I become reserved and defensive around attractive people. This is because I automatically suspect they know how attractive they are and might use it to their advantage to wield undue influence against us normies. I also have found that many attractive people (mainly women) seem to spend a disproportionate amount of time maxing out their attractiveness. This makes me think, "Oh, man! How long did you spend on your hair this morning, let along your damn makeup?!" I think "high maint." I find interacting with people who are high maint to be generally insufferable. Whether they're incredibly superficial or simply spoiled and used to getting everything they want, I have little patience for it and will often even want to be the spanner thrown in their works if the opportunity presents itself.

However, that doesn't mean their attractiveness has no influence. It's simply not the kind of influence that will work as any kind of leverage towards anything in their favour. There is certainly an exception if they're sincere, kind, and charismatic. That's not necessarily what we're talking about here.

If it's pure attractiveness and you're an idiot or otherwise unpleasant beyond your looks, there is only one guarantee: I will be eye-humping you for the full duration of our interaction.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

Don't hump me, bro.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Zeraph

No I am very serious. I believe in selective breeding to make our race better. That would be a great trait to pass on.

You too then Jewels, breed like rabits.

---------- Post added at 03:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:30 PM ----------

Nope. There has been extensive research on this subject actually. There have been experiments to see how many people will help with directions, how long they have to wait for various things, tbh I'm mostly high or drunk when on tfp, so that's all that's coming to mind atm. But you get the idea. When I was in college attractiveness was kind of my senior thesis. (edit: and no I didn't mean that as a innuendo joke :P ) I should say, disgust-attractiveness scale. My hypothesis was that people seeing disgusting things would more likely remember other people and things as more disgusting than normal. There was significant statistical data to support my hypothesis. Ok now I'm rambling you probably didnt need to read all that.

mixedmedia

I've done all the breeding I intend to do in this lifetime.

But, really, people are not slaves to their impulses. If it bothers you to treat attractive people better than you do unattractive people then use your powers of observation and self-discipline and change it. I've done this willfully all of my life in response to all types of social impulses and it has shaped and enriched my life more than I can easily relate in a sentence or two. But you really can't underestimate the benefits of being able to relate effectively with just about anyone, regardless of language, cultural or superficial differences. It's something I've always striven for (is that right...striven?) and something I now realize is going to be very advantageous to me when I am a nurse.

So. yeah. don't like it? change.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

roachboy

when i was younger, more a sprat and naive at that, i think i equated outer and inner in ways that were more or less in line with the way the teevee and the other aquarium ornaments that i would swim around in the shallow end of the pool ordered me to equate (them.

but as i advance toward decrepitude i've found intelligence and curiosity about the world both more rare and interesting in people than being-pretty. (but all together in the same person can be pretty great.)

and there are lots of pretty people who neither engage nor interest me and lots of pretty people who i'd rather be sealed in a 55 drum of puke than be trapped with for a long drive in a car. that applies to most less physically attractive people too.

but it's also true that what one finds attractive is based far more on projection than on "reality." the physiologial studies folk have waved their hands in the general direction of above are mostly designed to generate some kind of repeatable, quantifiable-seeming underpinning to something that's really pretty arbitrary. like other folk have said, it seems that what's understood as attractive follows from what people are told they find attractive. like a lot of things it's as much a matter of repetition---so conditioning---than anything else, these ideals or norms of beauty and the assumptions that prevail out there in the big flat about the relation between the external and internal.

i seem to have lost track of what i was talking about.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Zeraph

MM for most people its subconscious. Its an evolutionary trait. It can't just be "changed."

snowy

Show me the studies, then. I'd like to see them. It isn't that hard to get on Google Scholar and look up the abstracts of the studies you are discussing, and if you are going to keep referring to them, I'd like to know that they actually exist.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

mixedmedia

So when you are, let's say, more helpful to an attractive person than to an unattractive person you are calling that subconscious?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

jewels

TFP is all about evolution, growth and all that good stuff. That involves change, n'est-ce pas?

Attached Images

Screen shot 2011-03-06 at 8.27.54 PM.png (12.6 KB, 38 views)

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We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Zeraph

Well of course. Normally its in a hope to get a number. But even if I've turned that off (and I have) I still do similar things unconsciously.

Sorry meh, too drunk don't care enough. I'm sure you could find them if you looked. Its not like I'm lying.