Stiltzkin

If you are a moderator, please read the whole post before deciding to move it somewhere else. Thanks.

Now I'm not certain about what you all know of the übermensche. If you're the kind of person who thinks that you can recite the words "marxism", "propaganda", "nazi", "Hitler" and a couple of other words and just say that they have "something" to do with WWII, then this probably isn't for you. Now if you think that the übermensche was used to spread nazi propaganda, then this isn't for you either.

Now I can't confirm this from my own knowledge, because I am not German and do not speak the language, but "übermensche" literally means "overman". In English, "übermensche" has been interpreted to "superman", which is not incorrect, but "overman" is more specific to what the übermensche is. Now if you believe that the übermensche was used to spread Nazi propaganda, I do sympathize with you; I've heard that version, too.

What I learned in highschool was simply that the übermensche was the "next evolution of man", in that any flaw that a normal human being has, the übermensche has not. Let's say that you had to choose whether to take the trash out, or stall because you're feeling lazy. The übermensche wouldn't even give it a second thought-- he'd take the trash out. The übermensche is also incapable of feeling jelous, and is incapable of being selfish. In fact, there is a great many things that the übermensche is not capable of-- but chiefly, he is not capable of feeling emotions.

So what does all of this have anything to do with the "tilted living" board? Well, here's the deal: I've been trying to become the übermensche ever since I learned of the idea. Of course, I'm not trying to model myself after the exact description of what I was told that the übermensche is, but instead I'm trying to become my own interpretation of this being. I heard somewhere that Fiona Apple lost sexual interest in both genders and now is non-sexual. I don't know if this is true, but I've been working towards this. By sheer coincidence, I have a female friend who is also forcing herself to be this same way, and she's no fool. She gratuated salutatorian of our highschool class with a GPA of 99.7, with plenty of AP-level courses. Could it be that the more one evolves spiritually, the more one realizes that sexuality is a brutish thing? I've spoken with her quite a bit, and am good friends with her. I even tried hooking it up with her twice in the past year, and both times she refused. I wonder if anyone else can understand this to any degree? Now, let me just say that if you suddenly feel the strong need to insult me, then everything I have just said went completely over your head, or you are simply too imature to try to see things through another person's point of view. Now don't get me wrong; I'm not preaching that this is the right thing to do, or that it is the next stage in human evolution-- how can it be the next stage of human evolution if such a thing would be genocidal? All I am saying is that I am trying to rid myself of my desire to feel sexual gratification, and my desire to be with someone intimately, and my need to be selfish and uncaring and misunderstanding. Is all of this self-contradictory? It sure sounds like it, doesn't it? I'm still sorting through all of these things. One can never be 100%, not even the übermensche... or can he...?

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The most important thing in this world is love.

Memalvada

I dont quite understand this, but personally, i dont think its possible to be this übermensche. Its too much to ask from a human being i think: too many emotions/instincts to supress

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"The weak are food for the strong, so die and let me feast!" - Makoto Shishio (RK)

Stiltzkin

It may not be possible, because of the exact reasons you described, but in theory it is possibe... and also not possible. Crazy

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The most important thing in this world is love.

vermin

It's always a good thing to try to do better than you've done before. It's good to set goals and then work to achieve them. It's also good to constantly try to improve yourself through education, experiencing things, etc.

Directing your energy away from sexual things and towards other constructive avenues is a noble goal. However, you're still you. Don't deny it or be ashamed of it. Sexuality is not brutish. Well, it can be depending on your approach, but it doesn't have to be. It all depends on you.

Maybe instead of trying to deny urges and sexuality, you could study up on it and try to find ways of approaching it that aren't so brutish. Just a thought. Good luck.

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If puns were sausages, this would be the wurst.

lafemmefatale

from my comprehension of your description of ubermensche, it sounds almost reflective of buddhist theology...but then i dont really understand either all that well ...anyway from what i gather it's a matter of giving up the social conformity and let go of instinctive desires and whatnot and displace all efforts into...i suppose as your friend did, in achievment of some sort...

personally i think this is very well possible...for certan people. ie. geniuses...we're talking real geniuses who live their lives through their work. like einstein, or stephen hawkings, or eccentric writers like virginia woolf...it's a generalization but something they all have in commn is not only hard work which everyone should have...or do...but a predisposition to be that way...to be talented and be geniuses...i know no matter how hard i work i cant be that smart...so in a sense maybe its a genetic thing? What i am saying is those uberppl, well they do and can exist, but not by just forgetting everything you are and then work super hard...but also already possess a certain tendency towards it. Something between the lines of genetics and destiny.


My mother who is a scholar once told me this story and since i only remember the plot not the ppl it must sound very untrustworthy, nonetheless, there was a writer...a very reknowned writer who as a little boy was brought up by his father to be a genius...he was more or less sheltered from society...and grew up writing profound pieces of work...by the time he was thirty or so...he commited suicide.

As uncivilised as it seems, there's a reason the society is fixated on sex and other seemingly boorish things and impractical things, ie. emotions. So instead of declaring the world as a bunch of philistines, make a compromise between the two. My guess is perhaps you are a student [i am.]? or young nonetheless, and the young can displace emotions like its nothing as thats the time of their lives when they get things done and such and such...but as humans get older...there is a change in priorities...and emotions become very important even if it wasnt before...after all i consider it to be a defining characteristic of the human experience.

So if i had the choice of being a uberfdasdfasf...i wouldnt take it, i love loving and hating and being lazy and mean and all the flaws and virtues that define me too much to give it up. What good can come out of being a ubermensche? even if you acheive something great...theres no such thing as joy or pride for the person. which is rather boring...

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-poor is the man whose pleasure depends on the permission of another-

QuasiMojo

Yes
I can dig what La Femme is saying.

By forgoing what is intrisically "Human" Why be human?

The Nazis were wrong. With a capitol "W"

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AzAbOv ZoBeLoE

Stare At The Sun

go watch the movie equilibrium(sp) and read the books brave new world and 1984. You'll realize that you need your emotions to be human, otherwise, you'll never be truly happy.

Because of the way you were raised, you'd never really be happy w/o emotions and sexual gratification, because its whats natural to you, and inbeded in you, had you been born w/ no external forces that acted upon you, and instilling those values, then you might stand a chance at being the ubermensche. otherwise, you're just denying yourself from some good pussy.

The time for the ubermensche is not for awhile, not while playboy, and TFP exist anyways.

Though this is just my feeling on the subject, i think emotions are what make humans, human. Without them, what is the point for living. We need to have the roller coaster of life, otherwise, we are no better than machines, just living simply to exist. Love, lust, jealousy pride anger and happiness are the driving forces in our life.

Without emotion, practical motivation would cease, seriously, think about it, there would be no reason to better anything, you would recieve no gratification out of it, no rewards, etc. No point.

I dunno, im kinda tired, i'll repost on this subject tommorow, but feel free to tear into what i said.

Nyenrodian

Übermensch can best be translated as Superior Human. Hitler had extensive breeding programs to make this true. Especially the SS people, who were the smartest and most attractive were paired together with females who were the smartes and most attractive. See it as breeding horses or dogs. Exactly the same, take the best specimens and put them together. Hitler even had special 'farms' for this purpose.

Then there were quite a lot experiments that Dr. Mengele did etc. Not very pleasant all.

Cynthetiq

i was under the impression that mensche in yiddish/hebrew was a gentleman.

now the underlying thoughts whatever you want to call it is a great goal. It's trying to not be distracted by all those other things that keep being thrust into your mind.

I tried to focus on lots of things like this throughout my life, stop being lazy and unmotivated and just do it.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Schwan

A few short thoughts: first up, this come from German, so the proper form is "ubermensch", and is "uber" man. Second of all, the concept comes from Nietzsche himself, the bad boy of philosophy. The Nazis came a long, long time after that and most of the people miss the fact that the original idea had nothing to do with slave farms and killing in the first place. What the Nazis did was to take his theories and misinterpret them, sort of like the socialists did with communism in Russia (or Bush with Democracy, but it depend on your views, and I digress anyway). Can you become an ubermensch? It's a thing for TFP Philosophy really, but to keep it short and sweet: not according to either Nietzsche or the Nazis. Nietzsche pointed out that we are born as "ubermensch" and are enslaved by the weak. Come to think of it, how are you supposed to know if you are a natural born "ubermensch" or not? If you try to achieve the ideals, then I guess he'd say that you are one. The nazis added an ethnic element to the whole thing. If you're not Nordic, blond hair and blue eyes, you're outta luck. What you can do is strive to achieve some of the ideals, but I'd much rather become the "man of Renaissance" myself .

rogue49

I'll keep this brief.

Be all that you can be...including human.
This means also embracing your emotional/instinctive side.
Be more than the sum of your parts.

Stiltzkin

With all due respect, I don't think this is possible. To quote someone who's name I never knew:

"One plus one is never three, not even for extremely large values of one." - Someone

Although I do appreciate the spirit of your message.

Compelling response. The part about the geniuses... well, I am no genius, that is for certain. I've been trying to displace my need for gratification into a need to read. Been reading and sleeping, only because it is the summer. When school starts, I hope to be overwhelmed with things-not-related-to-girls-and-sex. If this doesn't work out as planned, because it will be my freshman year and freshmen usually start out slow, then I'll put extra reading loads on myself. I acknowledge all the things you guys have said about emotions being part of the human experience, and I could not agree more, but frankly, I'm tired of being held back by my emotions. They cause me unnecessary pain 24/7, and the worst part is that I have a heap load of friends who're constantly getting into relationships and breaking up and almost making it seem like they intentionally cause eachother heartache, and they've become used to me being the only one who "isn't suffering". They turn to me for their problems, and I have to supress my own sufferings and remain silent whilst I listen to them babble, and try to give them advice afterwards. This is a very complex issue for me, but I think ridding myself of my need for emotional/sexual satisfaction would be the best thing I can do right now. If you have to respond to this, please don't be hasty. Try to consider that I've thought long and hard about this decision. Unless you are me, or someone who's had an almost duplicate experience, you cannot possibly understand why I would want to do what I want to do. If you don't fall under that criteria, then I would thank you deeply to think out your response before posting it.

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The most important thing in this world is love.

lafemmefatale

i dont think you're need is so much as being a ubermensche as much as you wanna get your work and forget your friends' bitchin'...and i know exactly where you're coming from. a friend of mine...first gf, not so serious...break up...got horrible school marks. second gf, forgot about school became obsessed. break up, depression, horrible school marks. So. It may seem that it's worthwhile to forget the whole romance thing, concentrate on school and get high marks etc. While that is a route a lot of relatively smart students do, consider the fact that it is possible to have a healthy relationship sans problems and have schoolwork done well. My bf and I get on fine, and get good grades...well he gets better marks but then i'm just naturally not that bright...it's not neccesary to be devoid of emotions for the student life, but to be involved...be sensible, and be picky. if it's not worth it, forget it. it doesnt make you a ubermensche i dont think...just a student with common sense wanting to get ahead.

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-poor is the man whose pleasure depends on the permission of another-

Rodney

Y'know, I'm in my late '40s, and it's great. I can chat up a good-looking young woman, get into a nice conversation, really enjoy the conversation, enjoy the company, enjoy the view, without any hormonal-induced tension, any physically-induced ulterior motives, anything like that. Something I couldn't really do very well for the first 35 years of my life. (I like sex, believe me, but the urge doesn't GRAB MY ATTENTION every time I see a sexy woman.)

So maybe I know in part where you're coming from. Feeling as I do now, I wish in my youth that I'd had a kind of dimmer switch on something on my bod so I could tune my sex drive down when I wanted to converse with some woman as a person, then turn it on up when the time was appropriate.

Unfortunately, that's not possible. But you know, much of what you're talking about is what has interested people in monastic living; a simple life, no distractions, spiritual pursuit, hard work, subordination of desire (that's where the hard work comes in). Although it may sound anti-social, maybe you need a break from all your friends. Is it possible to give yourself much more alone time than you get now?

A lot of people can have a life that balances relationships, sex, emotion, achievement, and so on. And maybe you can, too. But for now, maybe you need to withdraw for a while. Start studying in the library; be somewhere else when they want to come by and bitch. Take a time out from the tumult, buckle down on your studies, and keep thinking about what you want.

Nisses

I hope you're not trying to become an ubermensch like the kind Nietzsche described though

If you have the chance to take out the trash, and your mother says to do it because then you're a good boy, an ubermensch would plainly ignore it because a conscience and a sense of guilt for not listening to your mother, are just tools used by the weak to enslave the ubermensch.... As are morals, or the commandments.

An ubermensch has his goals and will achieve them, and has no need for petty things that stand it his way. He will remove them or ignore them, whichever is possible.

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Moderation should be moderately moderated.

baudot

Your emotions are a useful tool. Disposing of them will not improve you as a person. The outside world is more complex than one person's internal model of it. Emotions allow you to react in ways that you do not have the time, knowledge, or processing power to think through logically. These reactions are not necissarily correct, but they are generally better than nothing. Discard this ability at your own peril.

...and just to point it out, the nazis did twist the concept of the uebermensch to be a propaganda tool. Neitsche had it first, nazi's redefined it later. Is the fact that I'm aware of this not make this discussion for me, as your grammar would suggest, or can educated, german speaking folk contribute as well?

Stiltzkin

By all means, please contribute. All I meant was that if a person's inclination was to turn this into a Nazi/WWII thread... please don't post. That's all.

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The most important thing in this world is love.

Caser

I agree with memalvada

"I dont quite understand this, but personally, i dont think its possible to be this übermensche. Its too much to ask from a human being i think: too many emotions/instincts to supress"
so true

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Zipperhead

If you remove emotion, you remove desire. If you remove desire you remove the ability to form personal goals. Name a goal that isn't based on a desire which is based on an emotion.

I think that Hitler was trying to create an army of T100 terminators biologically instead of technologically. To follow orders without having human distractions to achieving the goal.

Bumble bees are the perfect model for this ubermensche. The drones have one purpose, no personal desires and no ability to breed. What a great life that would be.

If you really want to become this ubermensche, Stiltzkin, my advice to you is to get castrated and go on a heavy dose of lithium. I'm not kidding. The castration will remove much of your testosterone induced aggressive instinct and sexual desire. The lithium will knock your emotional reactions down as well (or at least even them out.) Your ability to focus on your goals without these distractions will increase substantially. Good luck to you.

tmricha

??

Nisses

Ubermensche don't remove emotion, they thrive on it. They will however consider some emotions weak and unprofitable (like guilt). They are the ultimate goal-setters, since they don't let nearly anything get in their way. They ultimately care about themselves and the people in their direct vicinity (as far as those people relate to him and improve his standing/satisfaction/needs).

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Moderation should be moderately moderated.

marshall26

if everyone was ubermensche and had no sex drive at all, they would last a generation due to no reproduction...

Stiltzkin

Yeah. VHEM (The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement) This, or the Human Instrumentality Project would seem to be the logical next step in human evolution. How this relates to the übermensche, I do not know. (actually, I'm too tired to think right now. Look at the time I posted this...)

I won't disagree with you here. The only thing I must point out is that I wish I could become my own verison of the übermensche, not the actual übermensche described by Neitzsche himself. My version is more toned-down and human-like, although much more focused. I still doubt if I can achieve such a thing, but... I suppose I'm still willing to try.

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The most important thing in this world is love.

Grothendieck

Just nitpicking here, but... the word is "der Übermensch". Plural is "die Übermenschen".

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Didn't remember how intense love could be... Thank you B.

SiN

Danke schoen

(ps) über can be spelt without the umlaut like so - ueber

(for those who do not kno the 'Alt + 0252')

as a current student of the German language, i just had to point this out.

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baudot

Now you're just being vicious.

Lithium, so i'm told, suppresses most drive and makes everything fuzzy. Not a good drug for getting stuff done.

I recently had a relevant conversation.

I said, "You're like the most sane person I've met in 28 years. You and reality, you're like THAT. (Holding up two fingers together.)"

"This stuff," she said while waving a bottle of Wellbutrin at me, "Really works."

Not that I'm going to try any drug based on a testimonial, but had to share.

miked10270

Hi Stiltzkin,

I'm frankly puzzled after reading this thread, more by some of the responses and other contributors ideas of what constitutes "Ubermenschen".

Some of the responses remind me of the fable of the 3 blind men & the elephant - you know, the one where one grabs a leg and says an elebhant is tree shaped, one grabs the trunk and says an elephant is snake shaped & one grabs a tusk and says an elephant is spear shaped.

You are not Ubermensch. A true Ubermensch would not be asking such questions since he would already know in his heart what he is. This is good, when I think of Ubermenschen existing is large numbers then what follows is Aldous Huxley's "Oh Brave New World, that has such wondrous creatures in it". A transient, surface happiness & satisfaction that only masks the the desolation beneath.

I implore you to strive to be your best, but ultimately to be what you are. Concentrate on actually living your life, and don't be sidetracked into what would be a waste of the very limited time that you have to live.

Mike.

shaman

Have you ever thought of life as a religious, channeling all of the energy of the human condition into positive pursuits.

Just a thought, many have given good ideas of die Uebermenschen. My personal thought was study the idea further, Philosopy 101 a place to start. Good luck in College

giblfiz

Wow, you really confuse me.
Why do you believe that sex is not something that should belong to humans or post humans? Why abandon sensuality?

What makes you think that reading is superior to sex? or working?

It appears to me that your just chiseling off a chunk of your psyche because it makes you uncomfortable. It seems to me further that your decision is based on some very repressive ideas.

Neither the Ubermench as described by Neiche or the one sought by the eugenics movement are asexual or even less sexual.

I Would suspect that being a ubermench is more a matter of being all you can, embraceing life, and becoming adept at everything a human can. Instead of trying not to have sex try to learn all you need to be a doctor, lawyer, programmer, and archaeologist. Personal energy and willpower are not zero sum games, giving up one thing will not give you more energy (or surprisingly even more time for another) unless you are already working damd close to capacity. (which, if your posting to TFP, your probably not)

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Use the star one and you'll be fighting off the old ones with your bare hands
-A Shoggoth on the Roof

jd anderson

the ubermensch does not retreat from the world, but rather overcomes it (no pun intended). he must live in this world and work to remake it as the inner world. it's rather akin to blake's ideas: 'innocence' and 'organised innocence'. we are incarnate (precisely) to get (some of these) things out of our systems. from a forgotten pre-chrisitian greek philosopher: a dry soul is a beautiful thing to god; souls love to get wet. i have paraphrased and compressed, but conveyed accurately. giblfiz has the idea!

baudot

I've just started an interesting read. The name of the book is "Descarte's Error" and so far it appears that part of the premise of the book is that emotion is tied to reasoning and planning on a basic neurological level. When emotion is removed, reasoning suffers in the process.