Bagezio2

Hey everyone. I don't usually post here but I've had this on my mind for a while and I need some unbiased opinions, and from reading TFP for a while I know thats what I will get from you guys .

I've been wanting to join the military for a while now. I have a few reasons, I want to learn to fly, I think it would be an honorable thing to do, good life experience, etc, but mostly its the only thing that basically just FEELS right for me. Thats the only reason I really know how to describe it. My friends understand, however none of my family seems to.

A little background:

I am a 19 year old college student, living with my parents in ny. Family has always been big in my life, mostly because I grew up semi-sheltered due to my parents fear of what the rest of the world would do to me if I experienced it alone. I turned out decent, albeit pretty irresponsible for some reason. I know that if I stay here much longer this will never change so since I don't have the financial means to move out of my parents house yet, once I graduate I will join the military. However my family is adamantly against this. While they constantly tell me how Irresponsible I am, they refuse to "allow" me to join the military.

While i try to explain to them my reasoning they only see one thing: Death and Killing.

Sure, thats a part of military life. However there is so much more. I have done so much research, spoken to so many former military people. Some have loved it, some have hated it. I feel I would love it. However it is incredibly difficult for me to do something my entire family is so against. In the end the choice comes down to me, and I WILL join, i just can't help feeling bad...

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

Martian

Crompsin's really the expert in this area, but my opinion:

Your parents haven't done you any favours by sheltering you from the Big Bad World. The simple fact is that sooner or later you're going to end up on your own. Balancing a budget, doing a load of laundry, cooking a healthy meal, doing the groceries and cleaning the house are all essential skills that everyone needs. If your parents have been doing these things for you, then you'll be lacking these skills that are completely necessary for everyday life.

The bottom line is that it's your life to live. You and I know that there are good reasons for joining the military. They teach discipline, independence and generally make sure you have your shit together (in some ways, anyway). The big downside to all of this is that you may end up having to risk your life, and you may end up having to kill someone. If you are aware of this going in and can be okay with this, and if on the whole you have decided that this is the right decision for you, then you need to follow that. It's not your job to make your parents understand; it's up to them to come to terms with your decision and figure out how they can support it.

That's how it should work, anyway.

In the real world, there's a possibility that your parents will not understand. It's selfish and wrong of them to tell you that you can't do what you want to do because they don't like it, but people are selfish and wrong all the time. You may have the added pressure of deciding if a military career is worth risking your relationship with your family for. If it were me, I wouldn't let them stand in the way of my own dreams, but then my mother taught me to be independent and supported me making my own choices, so it's an easy thing for me to say.

Also, don't join the military to fly. What if you can't? Have a back-up plan.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

KirStang

Does your campus offer ROTC?

Bagezio2

My campus doesn't offer ROTC, however there is a school closeby that does and I can join it. That was the route I was going to take, however, I didn't really do too well so far and kind of messed up in school, so I need to raise my GPA before joining ROTC.

As for joining to fly, thats not the only reason I want to join. Flying is the main thing I would like to do, however if I cannot for some reason, there are plenty of other military specialties I would like to get involved in.

KirStang

Well, I'm not military, but I'm big on military stuff. Like you, I was 5% away from joining the Military (Marine Corps), but my parents didn't sign the paper work (I don't blame them..but damned if I don't feel like quitting law school and trying for Officer Training School sometimes).

That being said, there are a lot of non-death and roughness things that the military does. Sounds like you'll be joining the Air Force? One of my close close friends is in the Air Force and has worked a lot in communication--and he's turned out great.

I'll stop here, since I'm sure Crompsin and some of the other military guys here will be sure to offer much much better insight.

Cheater

With the economy the way it is today, the military is a good alternative. Finish your education first, it will help in the service, makes you good officer material.
My son graduated from a military school, thinking he was only going for the education, but decided to make it a career. Sure, I worry when he is deployed, but the only time he has used his weapon was to qualify for using it. Unfortunately we all see the news and it glorifies the "death and killing" but if you look at the number of soldiers deployed compared to the casualties, the percentage is quite low. Our soldiers are well trained and equipped, that is what I have to believe whenever my son is deployed. Not all the jobs are fighting on the front lines.
You mentioned that you are irresponsible, the military will take care of that, the discipline will do you good, now and later in life. The military is an honorable way to start your life. It will probably be a four year commitment, and if you find that you like it, retiring after twenty years with a military pension doesn't look too bad.
Good luck in whatever you decide.

Willravel

While I don't necessarily agree with your parents, I'm that type. If some day my son or daughter told me he or she wanted to enlist, I'd hit the roof. I'd do everything short of duct taping his or her room shut in order to prevent their military service. Why? PTSD. The military still doesn't know how to program and then deprogram soldiers. They're pretty good at creating order-following honor-loving machines, but there's nothing in boot camp that could possibly prepare you for seeing one of you best friends blown to pieces in front of you by an IED that was built by farmers turned militants. There's nothing that can prepare you for the amount of times people you've never met will try their best to kill you by whatever means are possible. And there's nothing that can remove those burdens from you when you come back from deployment. You might get lucky and get stationed in Germany or a more friendly Middle Eastern country like the UAE, but considering we're ramping up troop deployment in Afghanistan, there's a reasonable chance you'll be in the thick of it.

I'm not in the military. I just have a lot of military friends and I'm a good listener. Please, be warned that this is a very, very serious decision. You will probably be asked to kill, and you could die. You may see people you come to think of as family die. And there's no guarantee that you'll be fighting for anything laudable like freedom or peace. You may just be defending oil interests or posturing with your Chinese or Russian equivalent.

/end pseudo-parental rant.

Your family cares for you and they likely will continue to disagree with your decision. If you've given an honest effort at explaining why you want to enlist and they still aren't going to support you, you've done all you can. They're scared to death and they'll have to deal with that. The best you can do is be a good kid between now and when you ship out. Keep up your grades and all that jazz. It might shoot some holes in their "irresponsible" argument.

Best of luck.

Bagezio2

I was actually thinking of joining the Marines or the Army. Most likely I will choose army. I would prefer becoming an officer rather than enlisting, and I never thought about doing it until after I finished college.

blktour

It is for some people and it isn't. Some people get PTSD, and some don't. Some people freak out when you see your battle buddy get blown up or shot. We all react differently. I think I came out of the whole thing in good shape.

My family didn't like that I was gone for 5 of my 6 years in the Army, but you do what you want and they will always love you. They just don't want to see you get hurt. That is understandable.

I now live back in my home town with them close by, and if you do your one contract, then it almost feels as if it never happened. (to me anyways.)

I took it for what it was worth to me. I grew up. took pieces i liked and grew off of that.

others come out and that is all they know. gung-ho stuff and have to readjust to civilian life.

It is all with what you do with what you learn. Just most of all know that you are doing a noble thing, and if your mind and heart is in the right place. You will love the service.

It is just not for everyone.

good luck to you!

Iliftrocks

If you want to join the military, and you are an adult, that is your decision. You will have to deal with any fallout from that decision. Do you think that they will disown you if you join?

As far as maturing. I grew up right between two military towns. The least mature people I ever knew growing up were military guys. The least able to move on with their lives after military too ( couldn't get jobs, needed lots of hand-holding to do basic stuff, like paper work to get into college (don't get me started on them in college )). Like blktour says above you have a readjustment to civilian life, when you get out. Some of the best people I knew were also military too, YMMV

I personally have nothing against the military, as I was accepted to Air Force Officer School, but messed up my back in an accident before I went, and had to come home before finishing :-(

__________________
bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

Slims

Send me a PM if you are serious, and let me know what career paths in particular you are interested in.

If you want to fly you will need a degree...flat out. You can join and be crew on a transport plane, etc. as you are now, but you will not be a pilot.

If you want to fly helicopters rather than large planes (it's my understanding that fighter pilots are a very small minority and most of those slots get grabbed up by academy graduates) join the Army. You can go in as either an officer or as a warrant officer (warrants typically get to fly the most and for the longest period of time). You will still need a degree to become an officer, but I don't think a degree is necessary for warrants.

If you enlist you can serve in another MOS and after a few years apply to the warrant officers course and try to become a pilot that way. I don't think a degree is necessary initially, though it likely is before promotion.



For what it's worth, when was the last time you heard of the US being involved in a real air-to-air dogfight? It almost never happens nowadays, and even ground-attack pilots are very detached, operating from very high altitudes. Helicopter pilots are right in the mix when it comes to providing close air support....

It's also the size of the helicopter pilots balls that can very easily make the difference between a unit getting in/out with few casualties or bogged down and torn apart.


Why do you want to be a pilot in particular? The Army is a big place and there are a lot of other options as well if you decide that you definitely want to serve.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

ametc

I hate how nowadays it's the FAMILY'S decision whether or not a child should join the military.

Back when my dad joined 35 years ago, you joined because you wanted to serve.. not because it was an easy option. Growing up as a military brat, I've met hundreds of other military families and I've known only five families who have lost somebody while on duty and only two of those five died while in war. Death is really not a big deal in the military because it doesn't happen as often as people think it does.

I say join the military if you want to serve the nation and don't listen to your family. If you want an easy way out of a situation but don't care at all about serving the nation.. then don't join the military because you may be sorely disappointed.

Anormalguy

If you're struggling in school, you can pretty much forget about becoming a pilot.

__________________
In a society where the individual is not free to pursue the truth...there is neither progress, stability nor security.--Edward R. Murrow

Xerxys

I disagree. I know pilots who made it from scratch. Who now own their charter business.

Teufel Hunden

Honestly, your family will come around if you join. They won't disown you or stop talking to you altogether (unless they're truly disfunctional, but given your attachment to them, and the weight you put in their opinions and support, i'm guessing they're very normal), so just take the plunge. They'll protest, argue with you, try to change your mind, but if it's something you TRULY want to do, you'll never get rid of that feeling and if you don't do it, you'll be haunted by "what if" dreams forever.

I knew a few guys whose families were the same way. While the parents always wished their kids had NOT joined, they were always giving their support in the form of letters, care packages, etc.

timalkin

..

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

ngdawg

I belong to an organization that has a lot of veterans and I can certainly tell you this much: Whether they served only four years or made it a career, they all loved what they did. One guy was a Marine for only four years, but, at 71 years old, still has his heart in the Marines.
My dad is 79 years old and STILL loves talking about his Army days back in the 50's. And he was drafted, didn't even enlist, but if not for my mother's insistance otherwise, he would have stayed. There is not one person I know that did a military service stint and regretted it.
If you aren't sure, don't enlist too quickly. You have to know it's for you.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Willravel

I guess I missed that part of the Constitution that talks about nation-building as a pretense for resource hoarding. It must be in Article 8, the secret Republican article.

Slims

Get over it Will.

The Military is an honorable career, whether or not our politicians use us in the best way possible. Iraq may not have been in our best interest, but Saddam committed several acts of war against us and we were entirely justified in making him go away....despite all the rhetoric about WMD from both sides. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind at all the Afghanistan was justified...you kill several thousand Americans and we are going to come for you (or we would be the biggest bunch of pussies in the world).

The only people I have had to shoot at were shooting at my friends AND would rather kill a woman than allow her to learn how to read. Let me tell you, lots of long sleepless nights with that kind of guilt....

Every single time we had pilots engage targets for us it was because we were outnumbered and in a bad fight...there was no ambiguity AT ALL for the pilots as they were only engaging armed insurgents who were actively shooting at US troops on the ground. They could better discriminate combatants from non-coms due to their overhead view and imagery and often took out targets surgically that we would have had to get with mortars, rockets, etc. in a more general way.

Also the idea that we went to war in Iraq to secure oil is absurd...Sadam was selling it to us at rock bottom prices, he was stable and we knew a war would only jeopardize and destabilize the oil market. Now we have to purchase oil at higher prices and are pumping money into that country...how is that 'hoarding?' It seems to me like we might actually be trying to do good in the middle east. It would have been easy to leave saddam in power and buy cheap oil, or to topple him and install one of his generals with the understanding he would keep the oil flowing...instead we have given them a government that will be able to sell their oil to whomever they want, and to the highest bidder. Any dividends we reap will be due to the spread of democracy into the Middle East.

I know plenty of soldiers who have been to combat, killed and experienced loss. Of the dozens I know personally, only one is showing (or has expressed) any signs of PTSD or emotional problems. It is tiresome hearing how poorly the military prepares it's soldiers from people who have never joined and who have no first hand knowledge.


Edit: I failed to mention this at first, but my family did not support my decision to join the military and were very vocal against it. However, they do support me and continue to do so. After they found out I had signed the paperwork they shifted gears and began to help me succeed in my new career in any way possible. They are not happy I have chosen a career which puts me at risk, but it has not hurt my relationship with them in any way...They recognize that I need to make my my own decisions and they won't always be in line with their desires.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Willravel

It's honorable regardless of what you're ordered to do? It's honorable to do something you know isn't protecting the Constitution or the US because it's an order?

It's great people want to risk their lives for something important, something they believe in, but why put your fingers in your ears and close your eyes when the order comes down and it has nothing to do with honor or duty?
It's 2009. This line doesn't even work on devoted Bush supporters anymore.
I'm sure they were using the same or similar justification for trying to kill you. So where did you killing all of those people get us? And where did them killing our soldiers get them?
Heh. In September of 2000, Saddam Hussein was no longer going to accept dollars for Iraqi oil; he was switching to euros. Give this a read.
Yeah, the decisions were made by complete idiots who were given charge of the US military.
So we're talking about 1 out of every 8 soldiers or so, right? Because after deployment, approximately 12.5% had PTSD, a rate greater than that found among these soldiers before deployment.

Look, I can appreciate wanting to join the military. Bagezio2 has made up his mind, and I'd really like for him to do well. All I'm saying is that it's not all flying cool planes and killing evil-doers. Being in the military means a lot of ethical gray areas and serious philosophical questions which often necessitate oversimplification for the purpose of survival. The most common reason I hear for soldiers doing what they do isn't about honor or duty or even oil, it's about his or her fellow soldiers. You yourself even made reference to this with the "The only people I have had to shoot at were shooting at my friends". You had to oversimplify. And I don't blame you. I'm not built for war and I'd probably have folded under those circumstances. Or I'd be dishonorably discharged for insubordination before even being deployed. War is supposed to be incredibly difficult and most wars are at best morally gray. People thinking about joining up need to hear that.

dippin

Whatever you do, just be aware of the idea that joining the military is a sort of miracle organization that will instantly make you a better person and student. Yes, some people thrive under structure and strict discipline, but not everyone does so.

timalkin

..

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

ngdawg

Why is someone's question about how to approach his family becoming a political debate?

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

genuinegirly

I was at a similar point when I began considering a career with the air force. I nearly signed up, but decided to speak with my family about it first. They were livid that I would ever consider such a path. My mother had several close friends that died in the Viet Nam conflict. For my mother's sake, I did not join. I do not regret my decision. There are ways to serve your country and better society that do not involve military service.
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Since you're doing so much research - here's my advice.
Talk to the TFP military guys such as Slims, Blktour, and Crompsin.
Talk to friends who have served in the military.
Determine what might be the best fit when it comes to a branch of the military and a job within that branch.
Read the book Fly Boys. If you can get through it without puking, you can probably stomach whatever the military throws at you.
Do some more soul searching.
Then go for it.
Tell your parents you're serious.
Tell them exactly what you'd like to do.
Ask them for support.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Bagezio2

I want to thank all of you for sharing your feedback with me. I really appreciate being able to hear multiple viewpoints from a wide range of people with varying experiences. At this point I am about 95% sure that this is what I want to do. I am going to join the local Army ROTC program as soon as I can and from there I will try to become a pilot. However, if for whatever reason I can not become a pilot, That is fine because there are many other army jobs that interest me. While no one in my family has been in the military, it just feels so right for me, despite any negatives.

There is only one more thing that I want to ask about. This is mostly directed to people who either have served, or know someone who has served.

I have psoriasis, and have had it for several years. It is listed on every service's list of disqualifying diseases, however I was wondering if anyone knows anyone who has served with it? I have it relatively mildly, and it has recently been clearing up. It does not affect my motor skills at all. The recruiters who I spoke with said that a waiver might be able to be obtained, as it is only really disqualifying if it "interferes with the normal duties of a soldier, and/or interferes with the wearing of the uniform" which it does neither. Any thoughts?

Slims

I have a buddy who has Psoriasis, has had it his whole life, it is very obvious he has it, and he is in the Army no problems.

Something to remember: There is a waiver for *almost* everything in the Army provided you are willing to dig one up. The Army requires a waiver for just about everything that is 'abnormal' by their definition, to include tattoos. Typically if they take a look and don't think your issue will prevent you from doing your job it isn't an issue.

For instance: I know a colorblind HALO jumpmaster. Technically he shouldn't have been able to join the Army, go to Jump School, Jumpmaster, HALO, or HALO Jumpmaster, among others.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence