filtherton

I don't think you know what depression actually is Jinn. I don't think that anyone who has actually been seriously depressed would believe that the cure for depression is simply "looking on the bright side" or "bucking up". Try telling someone with bipolar disorder to just "buck up" or "relax" and see how useful that little bit of advice is.

Also, failure and success are both subjective terms. You shouldn't be surprised if people don't happen to accept your definitions for them.

applesauce

I have a question about this statement. Most companies will give their workers time off work in order to deal with the sadness/depression associated with the death of a spouse or child. In other words, these companies agree when the workers say it was more important to cry than to do work. Does this mean that employers are allowing, and even encouraging, their employees to fail? What kind of self-respecting company would do such a thing?




Just because a person hasn't been diagnosed as chemically depressed doesn't mean that they aren't. There are a lot of people out there who are depressed who haven't gone to see a doctor about it, because they think it'll go away on its own or because they can't afford to or because they haven't recognized the symptoms of depression in themselves. By your logic, one of these people is depressed and therefore a failure, yet is suddenly transformed into a non-failure the second a psychologist/psychiatrist utters the magic words "chemically depressed". Does that then imply that mental health professionals have the right/ability to determine who is and isn't a failure? If you think you're a failure, all you have to do is go to enough doctors until you find one who'll tell you there's a chemical basis to it, and then suddenly it's ok to fail, it's not your fault anymore?

little_tippler

I have read through this thread and am at a loss for words on what to say. The mind boggles...what is the point of this thread? To put down people who have depression? To tell the world that you cannot abide depressed people? I'm not sure.

All I have to say is this...it never ceases to amaze, amuse and sadden me that people like you, JinnKai, still find it intensely important to give everything a name and put it in a little box, metaphorically speaking. The world is not black and white, as other posters have said. Diversity is a good thing and not everything has a reason or a logic, in fact most things don't, it just comforts us to think that they do. Accepting this to some degree is a key to feeling more at peace with yourself and the world.

I also find it strange that I never recall you conceding to anyone else's point of view in any of your threads. Feel free to prove me wrong and nitpick. But this is what I'm feeling with most of what you post.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

The_Jazz

I read the OP very carefully before I posted, but I still don't understand why you are singling out depression for condemnation. From your argument, ANY excuse used for failure is unacceptable.

In my case, I basically pissed away today bitching and moaning about one single account, albeit a very big account. I was not successful today, and I'm man enough to admit its because I was upset about yesterday's turn of events. However, financially I was a big success because I wrote another large deal today - the groundwork for that was laid months ago and we executed on our plan last week with today's order being a simple formality. I was depressed yet I was successful. Today was a failure but a success.

My point is that you are oversimplifying this issue to an amazing extent. The reverse of your argument should be true - happiness breeds success. That could not be farther from the truth in the real world. I know lots of unsuccessful happy people.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

cookmo

Jinkai- The title of your post is to much of a blanket statement, which confuses correlation with causation. It suggests that depression always causes failure, when in actuality, someones depressive state MAY cause failure, but not always. Perhaps you should edit the title to something like-You are a failure if you continually allow depression to negatively impact your life- thats a bit long, but I hope you get my meaning.

little_tippler

I was thinking about this and thought this would be a useful thing to post.

Here is a list of people who have had depression and/or bipolar disorder, those big failures:

Marlon Brando
Winston Churchill
Kurt Cobain
Harrison Ford
Judy Garland
Ernest Hemingway
John Lennon
Claude Monet
Jackson Pollock
Mark Rothko
Toulouse Lautrec
Alexander The Great
Hans Christian Andersen
Samuel Barber
Samuel Becket
Beethoven
Irving Berlin
William Blake
Napoleon Bonaparte
Albert Camus
Frederic Chopin
Eric Clapton
Leonard Cohen
Natalie Cole
Francis Ford Coppola
Noel Coward
Charles Darwin
Emily Dickinson
Dostoevski
Richard Dreyfuss
Thomas Edison
T.S. Eliot
William Faulkner
Michel Foucault
Sigmund Freud
Paul Gauguin
Johann Goethe
Arshile Gorky
Francisco de Goya
Handel
Stephen Hawking
Audrey Hepburn
Herman Hesse
Victor Hugo
Howard Hughes
Sir Anthony Hopkins
Edward Hopper
Henrich Ibsen
Billy Joel
Elton John
Franz Kafka
John Keats
Ernst Ludwig Kirchner
Vivian Leigh
Abraham Licoln
Greg Louganis
Martin Luther King
Gustav Mahler
Michelangelo
Sir Isaac Newton
Florence Nightingale
Nijinsky
Georgia O'Keefe
Laurence Olivier
Sylvia Plath
Edgar Allen Poe
Cole Porter
Lou Reed
Rilke
John Ruskin
Charles Schulz
Shostakovich
Sting
James Taylor
Dylan Thomas
Mark Twain
Vincent Van Gogh
Walt Whitman

I only hope to be as big a failure during my life as them. Especially some of the artists. And if you don't know all the people on this list Jinn, I suggest you go educate yourself first before you self-appoint yourself a teacher.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

macmanmike6100

It's hard to say that depression is failure, outright and so broadly.

But I think what you're actually trying to say is that people who use depression as an excuse for their lives or their responsibilities annoys you, and I entirely agree on that point.

It's grotesquely sickening to hear people whine and cry about being depressed and yet not doing anything about it besides, well, whining and crying. (Granted, whining etc. is useful when you're talking to the appropriate party, but I'm referring to people whose depression isn't much of my business.) (Yes yes, maybe they're reaching out to me, which is why I've never been rude to an individual like that, but suggested they seek help.)

And little tippler, depression is hugely different than bipolar disorder. It's entirely incorrect to simply group them together.

Grasshopper Green

I've been pondering this since I read it yesterday and finally feel it's time to put in my thoughts.

Depression runs in my family. My sister and mother have both been diagnosed as clinically depressed; my brother never was. He was chronically depressed before he developed schizophrenia though.

My brother was an incredibly intelligent guy and was good at anything he tried. He was a self taught guitar player who was good enough to make it big if he'd had the chance. He didn't get good grades...but it was because he didnt care about them. He could have graduated with a 4.0 if he'd wanted to. At the time of his graduation, he had taken and passed more AP tests than anyone in the history of the school. He was an awesome athelete and excelled in basketball and tennis. He kicked ass at chess and took first place in several state tournaments.

He was never diagnosed as having clinical depression. The only mental illness he was diagnosed with was schizophrenia...which was after he had accomplished everything I listed. Like applesauce noted...does that make him a failure? Hell no. He would go through periods of major self doubt that would coincide with depressive episodes...but he was NEVER a failure.

__________________
"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Formerly Medusa

Mantus

I totally see where you are comming from JinnKai. I too have to deal with people who are un-motivated. Sometimes the best I can do is let them go. However, I've been there just as you have. I was never depressed but there was a point in my life where I lacked willpower and vision. Everyone has their time.

Your post is great but how does it help people? Obviously you can't go up to a depressed person and say "you are a failure, become responcible for your actions" and have it be all better. I am sure you are aware of negative re-enforncement; where people become entrenched in their poor values and beliefs because everyone confirms it for them.

It's intresting that you've mentioned alcohol because emotions are very much like a drug. It's been shown that people become dependant on them. Especially negative ones.

Personally I think people are much more motivated by carrot then by stick. I would love to hear about how you overcame your depression. What triggered the change, how long it took, what books are worth reading and what challenges you faced allong the way? Yes, that would be something.

Best of luck with these people who you care for.

Cheers.

Rodney

JinnKai, put this in a drawer and revisit it in five years, then take it out and look at it. I guarantee that you'll disagree with much of it.

Am I being condescending? A little. But the more experience you have, the more you understand that one blanket statement of philosophy (even one that took a whole hour to write) cannot possibly fit all instances of a condition so varied and poorly understood as depression.

noodle

I am a failure, then, I guess.

I became very depressed after years of working with kids who were severely abused, abusing drugs and/or dying from a chronic illness. I was stalked, dumped, and had extremely unhealthy friendships. Also during this time frame, I completed my master's degree with a 3.8, created a name for myself in the community in my field, and changed lives of these kids in a positive manner. I joined a gym, lost 95 lbs (healthily), and got rid of toxic people in my life. And I cried myself to sleep every night, had a brain full of negative self-talk, and nightmares that made it almost impossible to sleep. I started medication, and I don't care what others think of using that as a tool. My med never changed the way I do my job or how motivated I am. It made the negative self-talk easier to deal with and slowed down a lot of my thought processes so that I could focus on what was important. I still cry, I still have nightmares... just not as much. And I still kick ass at what I do.

What bothers me as much as being referred to as a "loser", is the loose definition of depression in the OP. In my training, I was taught that chemicals in the brain affect mood and mood affects the chemicals. So how is it exactly that anyone who is depressed is not "chemically depressed"? I've never even heard of this diagnosis and I've been in the field almost 10 years. Clinical depression, yes. I've never met someone who was truly clinically depressed who was successfully able to just "decide" that they aren't going to be depressed anymore. But I've met gamblers, alcoholics and drug users that decided they weren't going to engage in their addiction... and don't. It's so frustrating that I have difficulty in actually forming response that makes as much sense as I'd like it to. But blanket statements, especially about human beings, human nature, and mental illness never hold up 100%.
I did have to laugh at this because the three most common responses I've experienced to this type of "therapy" are: "what the F*** do you know about how I feel?!", tears and suicidal statements, and chairs flying... at my head, the window and a door, during a family session.
Both are already grouped together in the DSM. 296.xx family of mood disorders. Bipolar disorder (depending on the subtype) requires certain amount/frequency of major depressive episodes.

__________________

snowy

And as someone who has seen both first-hand, some of the scariest parts of bipolar disorder are those depressive episodes. It's like clinical depression on steroids. Both are scary and debilitating, and depending on the cycling of the person with bipolar disorder, it can end up being almost constantly like clinical depression on steroids.

Manic episodes aren't pleasant either, and I wouldn't wish either of these disorders on my worst enemy.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Zeraph

Emotions are us. To forcefully ignore them is to ignore growth.

Extremes will always be extreme and basing any philosophy on such will be extreme.

vanblah

I would like to reword it so that it's much less harsh:

<b>If you are depressed <i>are you a failure</i>?</b>

I thought about this over night. It is certainly a valid argument but could be tempered quite a bit.

Doug

thingstodo

You said it. It is an illness, pure and simple. Saying you are a failure is the same as saying someone with cancer is a failure as that disease causes all the same problems for everyone - even more sometimes.

JinnKai...you must have been trying to get something going because you can't possible believe what you said. If you do, you need to speak with someone to help you understand. And I am very aware of this illness with a wife and brother-in-law as shrinks.

__________________
If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves.

Stangers have the best candy.

Toaster126

I think that is completely wrong.

As far as the OP goes, it fails in some areas that others have mentioned, but the premise that a vast majority of people are responsible for their own unhappiness is true. It takes balls to say that, especially on a forum like this with some professional whiners and complainers. I respect that a lot.

That being said, one can be candid and take a stand without being an asshole and alienating themselves from those they wish to address. If you push all the buttons at the same time, people who have some investment in what you are trying to discuss as wrong won't discuss the OP, they will start arguing with you (especially if what you are saying verges on hypocrisy) and turning the focus in a different direction. And yes, there is a difference.

I'm not sure if some people need some perspective or just someone giving them some tough love, but seriously, some people just need to shut the fuck up about their "problems" and actually go do something about them.

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

Supple Cow

Like all advice, that feedback probably isn't meant to apply in all situations equally, or with no regard to the amount of gibberish or anguish-induced nonsense you are able to come up with. I hardly think that that feedback applies here because this isn't a discussion topic; it's almost a cry for help. Many people in here have already addressed the things I wanted to say, so I'll just refer to the many posts above mine that point out the glaring evidence of your being a control freak and the high likelihood that you have truckloads of issues to deal with concerning your alcoholic father. This thread isn't the means to do it, I assure you.

Before you dismiss this as a personal attack, remember that I could have just called you a douchebag if I had wanted to do that. I feel (and more importantly, THINK) this very strongly. Sometimes when I read your threads, I feel like huge important chunks of my soul have died... part of me clings to the hope that you are really some cruel and brilliant mastermind who likes to say absurd things just to get out his jollies, but I know that this is too much to hope.

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

Cynthetiq

If the How to overcome shyness and low self esteem? thread was titled If you are shy or have low self esteem, you're a loser. it would get this same kind of response which is what my point of stating what is JinnKai's reasons for the vitrolic thread titles. He spent so much time crafting the body, but little time with the title which is what colors and flavors the OP like an appetizer to an entree. It either compliments or it juxtapositions. Sometimes the juxtaposition makes for an interesting combination, but when it's something that alienates instead of unites, then it does disservice to the thread reader and the community at large.

I'd also like to add that your sig "If you struggle with something all your life you ARE NOT TRYING HARD ENOUGH." also shows this same lack of simple logic.

If I try to run a sub 4 minute mile and cannot just because I have never been able to and I exert every muscle that I can and do everything that I can, my ASTHMA can stop me from doing it at all. It doesn't mean anything less than it being impossible for me to expect to achieve that NO MATTER HOW HARD I TRY.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Toaster126

EDIT: Heh, it suddenly occured to me I was putting out a fire with a gallon of gasoline.

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

Zar

I am curious as to why you feel so. Do you honestly think that any one person can completely comprehend another's emotions, thoughts, and motivations based on some superficial observations? By the way, I would opine that unless you are EXTREMELY close to the person in question, all of your observations are superficial.

I too used to think as you do Toaster (and JinnKai). I was smart, successful, and generally kicking ass in my daily life. I thought, jesus, these whiners should stop their fucking crying and man up. Then a number of events, combined with a genetic predisposition, conspired to depress the hell out of me. I tried to bring my old, arrogant way of thinking to what I was facing. It did not work. I became suicidal at one point, and am only here due to some wonderful friends.

I think the main issue I have with this thread is this very point. People who are riding the high wave of success and pride truly cannot understand what it is that people with depression go through. It is not a mild feeling of laziness and semi-sadness that one can shake off by just telling oneself to buck up. It is a deep, deep underlying feeling that pervades your every waking thought and action. You can feel it physically; it wraps itself around your innards and seems to be choking the life out of you in every waking moment. Life becomes a hollow husk of what it once was. Your mental processes are completely warped to the point that death really does look like the best option. This feeling continues from day to day, week to week, month to month, year to year.

It does not matter what you are doing or what you are accomplishing in your daily life once the depression is in full swing. The depression abides. It whispers to you at your greatest moments, "This will not last. You are worthless." One can only recover from true depression through a combination of mental willpower (yes, I will grant you that a person has to WANT to recover from depression to do so... but one who is truly suffering from depression as I have known it, who would rather die than feel the way they do every waking moment, will not quibble this point), strong emotional support, and in some cases, professional help, which may include medication.

In short, depression is not something that can be wished away. This may be hard to understand if you have not experienced this soul-sucking feeling, and I sincerely hope that those of you have not felt like this do not. All the same, you'd have to walk a mile in my shoes to get me to listen to your half-cocked opinion on the matter.

Toaster126

I really hope you aren't now trying to talk about my life experiences.

If you don't want my opinion, don't read my posts.

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

Zar

Obviously I was not trying to talk about your life experiences, given that you haven't said anything personal in this thread. I am talking about something called empathy, rather than blithe dismissal.

I did ask a question though, in my opening few sentences, which I am still curious to hear your answer to.

And I prefer to read all opinions and thoughts, no matter how much I agree or disagree with them. I do not seek ignorance.

EDIT: Perhaps I should have said, "agree with" rather than "listen to" in my first post in this thread, if that clears things up.

Toaster126

What's to say? I believe people can understand without personal experience.

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

NoSoup

I agree with this statement.

In fact, although perhaps this is due to my age/inexperience, I would even venture to say that it may even be easier to understand - intellectually - without personal experience.

However, I think what what many people mean when they say this isn't necessarily understand, but empathize.

I believe that it understanding a person is far easier to do when you are a third party, unaffected by that person's daily life or emotions. If this weren't the case, I can't imagine going to therapy would be much help to anyone.

I'll agree with the Original Poster to some extent - not the broad generalizations that depressed people are losers - but the underlying sentiment that many people constantly find factors to blame their behavior on, whether it be depression, peer pressure, alchohol, or other drugs.

Granted, I have never personally experienced depression - at least to my knowledge - but I really don't think that you can summarily say that depressed people are losers and failures, at least not without getting much more specific as to the criteria. I could agree with the sentiment that depressed people fail at being happy, but that's rather obvious, wouldn't you say? To say that they fail at life - well, that's just so ridiculous I won't even begin to get more indepth than to say how rather blatently false that is.

On a side note, JinnKai, I imagine that you've been around on the TFP long enough to know that there are a number of people that frequent this forum that are depressed.

Don't you think that saying things like


is a bit like telling someone who is suicidal that the world would be better off without them and handing them a razor blade and a bottle of sleeping pills?

I'm glad you got out of your depression and all, but perhaps jumping to meglomaniac pseudo-intellectual wasn't all that much of an improvement.

I don't really see where "Lover - Protector - Teacher" comes into play at all in this thread - I've never heard of a lover, protector, or a teacher call someone a failure and a loser and have that same person be even remotely interested in what else you would have to say....

__________________
I have an aura of reliability and good judgement.

Just in case you were wondering...

Cynthetiq

I believe that as well. One can easily identify how they understand. They can see how things can or cannot fit into the world that they live within in comparison.

However they can only identify or empathise to an exact finite point, a person who has had a similar or same experience can go even further.

This is easily exampled in education from sciences to math, language to history. The experience you have yields at some point and past that one can only comprehend to point. It's beyond that point that it's conjecture rather than fact.

What is truly unacceptable is to make judgement.

edit: Even better example those that have no kids telling those that have kids how to or what can help them. I can only give some understanding of what I see and experience since I have no children of my own. While I care for my nephew for 1-2 hours when I visit him once or twice a year, that's the finite point of my experience.

Those who have children in their care for a short period of time such as day care workers or teachers have a more insight. But since they don't have the full emotional bond and responsibility of a child 24/7, they hit a wall at some point.

Only another parent can fully understand truly what the frustrations and solutions are, but they still have no place judging another parent, because ultimately they don't have all 100% of the information for that situation.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Toaster126

Actually, I don't think that is true either. I think it's perfectly fine to make judgements. One just has to be aware that they can be wrong and allow for that possibility.

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

Redjake

man I'm not going to touch this thread with a 10 ft. pole. I agree and disagree with the OP. controversial subject.

__________________
Off the record, on the q.t., and very hush-hush.

OzOz

Well, I for one have to say that I think the OP's points 1-7 are pretty much self-evident, and I fully accept point 8. That being said, I think the OP's generalisation that "If you are depressed, you are a failure" is asinine. I also take issue with JinnKai's use of sneer quotes in what seems to be such a dismissive fashion.

One wonders if JinnKai has any real conception of what "bad" parents can be like up close and personal? I do. I've been there.

My father's parenting philosophy as applied to me (but NOT to my brother, five years younger than I am) was based around the following observations:
- 'Sympathy' is just a word in the dictionary between 'shit' and 'syphilis'.
- There are millions of other people out there who are worse off than you are, so why should I waste my time on you?

I was constantly told:
- "You're an embarrassment to us."
- "We're ashamed to have a son like you."
- "Walk so far behind us that no-one will know we have anything to do with you."
- "I'm so sick to death of your whingeing" (which was usually about the favouritism shown to my younger brother) "that if I see you crying about anything, I'll just save myself the effort and give you a hiding on the spot." (He would sometimes add: "And then if it's your lucky day I might bother to ask what was wrong - BUT YOU'D BETTER HAVE A BLOODY GOOD EXCUSE!!!")
- For years, about the only praise I got was: "Gee, you've been pretty well-behaved lately. You haven't needed a hiding in a while. Perhaps I'd better give you another taste of the belt" - my father's favourite bashing implement - "just so you don't forget what it's like."
- "If I find that you've wasted anyone else's time with your stupid problems then I'll give you a damn good hiding." (THAT has been an EXTREMELY costly lesson to unlearn. I still have trouble accepting that it is OK for me to ask people when I need help.)
- "You should be thankful that I care enough to even bother giving you a hiding."

Punishment usually consisted of being given several lashes with the belt in my parents' bedroom - sometimes with the buckle - then being made to grovel on the floor to avoid an immediate second helping (as I was such an ungrateful little shit that I cried after the first helping), and finally being literally kicked out the door into the hallway. I would then be given fifteen minutes to stop crying, pull myself together and rejoin the family, all bright and cheerful. (Crying was the chief thing that made me an "embarrassment", and thus eligible for another immediate bashing.)

On one occasion, when I was six years old, I was picked up so that I was eye-to-eye with my father, run across the room and the back of my head was smashed against a brick wall three times, following which my father, still holding me up there, shook me and yelled in my face demanding to know how I could be such a pig to my brother. He then proceeded to tell me that that didn't hurt and that if I didn't stop crying by the time he counted to five I'd get more. Of course, I got more - another two blows, head against wall. My crime? I had been reading an article in a newspaper on the floor, which my brother (then eighteen months old) had been crawling across. I had been repeatedly lifting him off it so that I could keep reading and telling him not to crawl across it, and after having to keep doing this, eventually I had gotten fed up and pushed him off, whereupon he rolled on his side without hitting his head on the floor and started crying. (My parents had long before expressly forbidden me to even politely ask my brother not to annoy me, even if he was doing things like pulling my hair.) My father didn't see any of this, as he was at the other end of the house at the time. He merely acted on my mother's report that, "He's being a pig to his brother again." She hadn't actually been watching, either, but cooking in the next room.

Favouritism towards my brother was so extreme that my parents repeatedly told me that any arguments between us were obviously my fault and therefore to save their time and effort I would be the one punished. This was applied so consistently that my brother caught on and started making the most of it - when he was three years old. One night, not long after his fourth birthday, not long after we had both gone to bed, my brother was taunting me about the fact that he could do whatever he liked to me or to my toys and if I didn't like it, he could get his way by just pretending to start crying, because I'd be hit for it. I just quietly snapped, and it was lucky that one of my parents looked in on us just a minute later, because by then I was holding a pillow down firmly over my brother's face. They must have been really shaken by that, because I actually didn't get physically punished. They just threatened to tell my teacher, who I idolised. Of course, they didn't bother asking why I had done it or what was wrong either - they never did in any circumstances.

I suffered constant bullying at school - it wasn't good being an academic in a sports-mad town - but despite this, I repeatedly had to hide under the house for hours after coming home so that my parents couldn't see that I'd been crying. (Crying = embarrassment to parents = instant bashing, no questions asked.)

On top of that, I simply never knew when my father would simply take something I'd said, twist it completely out of context and throw it back at me in a way designed to make me feel like a worthless, selfish, ungrateful little shit. He would make snide remarks about just about anything - particularly my religion - and then run and hide behind the threat of another bashing if I got upset.

Oh, he eventually did start on my brother after I left home as well. One morning, just hours after I got home from college for Christmas, one year before my brother finished high school, Dad gave him a pep talk about his academic performance. (My brother and I are both very bright, but whereas I'm better with the sciences, my brother is more artistically inclined - actually he's excellent at that sort of thing.) I didn't know about it until Mum appeared in front of me, in tears, and told me about it. I found my brother curled up on his bed in the corner of his room, shaking and in tears. Great way to encourage someone who is already lacking in confidence, Dad!

What's the effect of all this? I've been in situations in which "buck up" is appropriate and doable - I'm in one now, having just lost both my job (retrenchments) and fiancee within a couple of weeks of each other - and I've been in situations in which "buck up" would have been appropriate, but I just didn't have the psychological foundation there to be able to do it if I wanted to. Hey, that's what happens if you've been told all your life up to that point that if anything goes wrong, it's automatically your fault and you're going to get your head smashed in for it. First time this happened at work, after I accidentally deleted some programming work that had taken me a week to complete, I just completely fell to pieces. Despite my colleagues' assurances that they could recover the files, I ran out of the building in a state of mental collapse. The others in my team spent an hour wandering the streets trying to find me and make sure that I didn't simply tie a block of concrete to my ankles and jump in the local river. (No exaggeration.) I took two days off work before I was in any state to go back.

Am I depressed? I certainly have been, to the point where suicide really did look like an attractive option. (At one point, the only thing that kept me going was a completely irrational belief that things might get better if I stayed alive.) Not having a lot of fun right now either. Am I a failure? Despite constant bullying right through school which continued right up to and during my end-of-school exams, and with no support from my parents or schools worth speaking of to help me cope with it, I won an academic scholarship to one of the more prestigious Oz schools and came fifth in my year of 125 students. I've also come first in my state in academic competitions, in one case despite having a severe headache when I sat the exam. (To my father, I was still an idiot though.) In my most recent job I've been flown to my company's global head office in the US three times in six years for a total of nearly ten months, so presumably I must have been doing something right somewhere if they were going to sink that kind of money into me. However, I do still have great difficulty in believing that I'm worth much, that my opinions might be worth voicing, that my hobbies and interests are at all worthwhile, or even that that girl over there might actually get a laugh out of talking to me.

Sure, there are times when "buck up" IS the appropriate response to someone else's mood. But if someone thinks that it's ALWAYS appropriate for another person who isn't doing well, then that isn't a sign to me that they have received some deep, profound lesson from the School Of Life. It's a sign to me that, like my father, they are simply too lazy to care.

__________________
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stevie667

My only point, not trying to go either way in this argument, is depressed people are a failue at what?

Failure is subjective.

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Toaster126

I'm not going to speak for him, but I'll share my feelings on it. I know that shitty circumstances make things harder for people, but at some point people need to be responsible for their own actions.

I don't think anyone is suggesting children be held to this standard - just adults.

By the way OzOz, that was a great post. Thanks for sharing. I respect the fact you were able to share that personal info with us.

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

shakran

The trouble with labelling people who are depressed as failures is not only that it's patently wrong, but it can cause more damage to an already damaged person.

Jinn, you seem to lack a basic understanding of depression. Quite often depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. Saying someone is a failure because of a chemical imbalance is like saying they're a failure because they got the flu. They can't help it, it's not their fault, and there was nothing they could have done to prevent it.

Even if it's not a chemical imbalance, sometimes things in life happen that make you depressed (clinically). People are not robots, and despite what you seem to think they are not failures for not being robots. Unlike robots, emotions play a large part in our cognitive processes, and therefore our actions. To say that someone is a failure because their brain is responding normally to clinical depression is asinine.

I'm not entirely sure but you may have a lack of understanding about the difference between being sad (what many refer to as being depressed) and clinical depression. Being sad is a passing thing, depression is much more permanent.

Frankly your post is not in line with the title you seem proud of giving yourself. For all you know there could be someone reading this thread who is currently depressed. Being called a failure, especially if it's not accurate or just, is certainly not going to help them get through their problems.

Eweser

I do agree that we as a society seem to be automatically looking for excuses, and I'm no exception, nor do I mean it as a generalization that everyone does. I do try my best to take responsibility for my actions, and wish others would as well...

Being someone who was diagnosed with a chemical imbalance, I don't know that I could have "bucked up" and gotten over it myself. Luckily I responded well to medication and I don't even have to take that now.

I agree with what others here have said. Telling a truly depressed person they are a failure is most likely not going to get the results you desire, and could have very bad consequences.

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abaya

Well, we don't expect you to. But it would be nice if Jinn would get back in here to speak for himself, since quite a number of issues have been raised since his last post.

I do appreciate hearing everyone's stories... OzOz, thank you for being so open with us. Really illustrates the point.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Jinn

I'm working on it. It hit 3 pages in Word so I'm working on slimming it down for the viewing audience. Being succint was never a strong point of mine.

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Sultana

I hope it wouldn't be offensive to suggest that, like the classic homophobe who fiercely rejects that which they find in themselves, that one who so aggressively pursues an anti-depression path may actually be trying to "logic-out" or justify or "talk-away" major depressive tendencies.

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At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

snowy

Excellent point, shakran, and it's the same sort of vibe I've gotten from a number of your posts, JinnKai--particularly the ones regarding control of emotions. Humans are emotional creatures--it's one of the reasons our bodies produce hormones. If we weren't meant to have feelings and emotions, we wouldn't produce the hormones that lead to these feelings/emotions.

I'm not a robot or a Vulcan. I'm a human.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

abaya

And yet, I can still split my fingers and say, "Live long, and prosper" to you Owl, and we understand each other. hehe.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Jinn

Post length seems to be inversely proportional to the number of people willing to read it, so I've split this into three seperate sections. Read as many or as few as you want to.

On a personal note:

I wasn't joking. All told, it probably took three hours to write and re-write my OP so that I could present my point without undue offense. As I noted above, I spend a great deal of time reading the replies to threads I create and just as long writing my replies. I hope, perhaps, that this might dissuade some of the ideas that I'm:

"extremely arrogant", "hold deeply ignorant opinions," "[have the inability to]say anything of value about depression," that I'm "a control freak" with "half-assed notions," "so self-important that I feel compelled to share my ignorance with innocent bystanders," "a drunk" "mad at my father for calling me a loser", have a "lofty, arrogant, holier than thou, I'm better than attitude," am unable to "LEARN from those who knew more than [I do]", "undecuated," with "truckloads of issues to deal with concerning my alcholic father" and I certainly hope that I can prevent "huge chunks of your soul" from dying when you continue to read my posts.

I've read each and every reply in this thread at least once, and I've spent many hours talking to friends, family, my girlfriend, my girlfriend's roommate (who is also my roomate's girlfriend.. ) about this issue. It's not a new one, either.

It's actually quite ironic: this thread idea was spawned by a post I made on another forum almost 5 years ago. In reading through what I thought I knew five years ago, I was shocked at the ridiculous things I said and believed. Some of it was quite appalling, but one thread stuck out. Why? Because thoughout all of the ridiculous things I said, I still agreed with with this one thread.

It was actually called something to the effect of "Depressed People, FUCK YOU! AND SHUT THE FUCK UP!"

With that in mind, perhaps the language used in THIS thread isn't as offensive as it could have been. And perhaps it was still too offensive. Offense is relative, and I think I did a good job of toning it down without losing the essence of the idea. Then again, that forum implicitly encouraged swearing and flaming; an idea I'm glad doesn't persist here. I structured the original post the way I did because I KNEW that it would incite a great deal of people who disagreed.

The one unfortunate (and fortunate) thing about TFP is that you all seem to care about JinnKai rather than the idea at hand. While it's nice to have people address you personally and perhaps offer suggestions about why you think the way you do, it's really not relevant to the majority of my threads. When I post threads, its typically because I either (a) have something I feel very strongly about or (b) have something I don't feel strongly about at all, and want input. In both cases my reason for having the opinion is usually irrelevant. And yet at the same time, it's nice to know that someone might be thinking of me, even if they think I'm an "extremely arrogant" person with "half-assed notions." It's nice. Really, it is.

Hopefully my personal digression will not kill this thread, as it is typically prone to do.

On the thread title:
Forums are an interesting beast, seperated in many ways from real converation. The most notable is the optionality of it; in face-to-face conversation, not responding to the person talking is considered rude. Especially when they're asking you questions.

If you engage someone in a physical conversation, they're societally obligated to respond with something, even if it's "bag off, stranger." If you've been exposed to internet advertising in any form or been a member of any forums for a while, you know that communication is very competitive. The things that stick out in your mind get your attention and your reading, and the others do not. Understandly, I wanted people to read this thread. As we discussed on the first page, if I had made the title "If I were depressed, I'd feel like a failure" or "You are a failure if you continually allow depression to negatively impact your life" it wouldn't have gotten nearly as many reads or replies as it did. Similarly, if I'd phrased the OP with a lot of what-ifs and maybe's, I wouldn't have gotten as many replies.

That's the other facet of conversation which has always been of peculiar interest to me. You often get much better, thorough, and decisive communication if you can rile the other person up. If I hadn't taken a stance and merely asked "If you're depressed, are you a failure?" I estimate my post-reply rate would have been about 10. People would have chimed in their individual opinions, maybe disagreed, and left. But with an OP that clearly takes a stance, people will actually fight to make their opinion heard. It's the nature of the forum world, and I stand by the tone and title of my post.

If I wanted to post something so that everyone could chime in and then agree, I wouldn't even bother. I see too many threads that seem to be garnering "support" for an idea without ever presenting the opposition. And it's often why I find myself playing devil's advocate; each side has a position that needs to be strongly presented, in every argument. I believe that it is ONLY by the strong presentation of these extremes that we can truly evolve "humanity, sexuality, and philosophy."

And that's why I've created threads on thing like virtualization, mental control, procrastination, addiction, thankfulness, authority, abuse of authority, abuse of welfare programs, excellence, relationship paradigms, using drugs to treat depression, critical thinking, and RESPECT.


Most importantly, however, I believe it. People who use depression or sadness as excuses for failure are losers AND failures in my book. And that brings me to the last part:

On depression:


After easily another 6 hours reading and re-reading your many insightful replies, it appears that most who dissent disagree with (4), and carry that disagreement into the rest of my post.

Point (4) was quite important, because I acknowledged that many people would not agree. If you feel that emotions must be allowed to reign (perhaps at times interfering with our well-being) then you disagree with 4.

What followed (4) was my opinion, based in THAT frame of mind. If you don't think emotions should be controlled, then you won't believe negative emotion is a failure, and you'll certainly disagree with me.



I strongly disagree. I think that belittling, although horrible, does not have to be the "WORST thing" you can do for someone. My past is not much different from OzOz's, actually. And, as I acknowledged in my original post, everyone has a bad childhood. Everyone has assholes who cheat them, steal from them, break their heart, tell them they're stupid and ugly. What makes us above them is (a) not returning the favor and (b) using it to make ourselves stronger. While I do not mean to belittle your experience Oz, we've all been there. My personality, however, refused to let that bother me. My bipolar sister who ran away when she was 16 before of my totalarian father had a personality like many here. She was an escapist. Rather than accept the ridiculousness that was some of my father's behavior, she left.

To me, that's failing. I used everything that my father said and did to make me a better person. I wrote down things that he did and said that I didn't myself want to repeat. I listened to the critiques that he did give me, for they held insight into truth. Most people don't complain for the hell of it - they complain because they have a legitimate concern about your behavior or your actions. And unless they're doing it for a purely selfish reason, we should listen, and improve. This thread is a perfect example. It's been made perfectly clear to me that my writing style (different than my verbal style) appears to be quite arrogant, and I'm using that as motivation to remove that tendency of my writing. It doesn't mean I stop and whine about how mean everyone on TFP is, even as tempting as it is. It's tempting to us all, and I that is why I felt it so necessary to deem depression failure. I'm certainly guilty of it myself, and that makes it failure. And yet, that label does not bother me. It reminds me to avoid that behavior in the future. It's positive, rather than negative. The most powerful people in the world, I believe, are those that can turn all negative things, from people's behavior and actions to truly traumatizing things, into positive action. Failing to do so is.. well, failure.

If no one ever told you that it was not okay to remain depressed all your life, what would stop you from doing exactly that?

The issue addressed in the OP is that most people are NOT clinically (or chemically) depressed. They are simply whining and making excuses for their lackluster performance. And I fail to see any logical argument to the contrary! How can one defend excusing bad behavior as a good thing?

You're absolutely correct, and I agree with you both.

That's precisely the POINT of this thread! Most people don't understand what "depressed" are, and simply need to be told that their excuse isn't going to work. The legitimately "depressed" are covered by (8).Each choice we make causes a ripple effect in our lives: when things happen to us, it is the reaction we choose that creates the difference between the sorrows of our past and the joy in our future.
This is also the reason for my post. How I got over my depression? I don't know if it was me, my parents, or my peers. Something made me feel like an internal failure. What kind of person are you, JinnKai? You're going to let what these assholes have said about you shape you? You're going to let them make you a failure?

And I said no. I decided that I was the only one who would ever be in control my emotions, and that letting "depression" take me over would be the ultimate failure. I believe in something called the Warrior's Code. If you disagree with this code, then it's again unlikely that you'll agree with me:

At the foundation of proper attitude is the belief that you are guaranteed victory as long as you do not quit. One learns how to overcome temporary discomforts on their path towards victory. They understand that all worthwhile accomplishments come through hard work and perseverance, and a warrior is the epitome of those qualities. After all, if it was easy, everyone would do it, and then it would not have the same value. Indeed the warrior attitude is priceless and cannot be bought. It is only earned through hard work and discipline.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

sapiens

I definitely agree that telling someone that they are a failure because they are depressed may not be the best treatment strategy. I also agree that depression may be caused by a chemical imbalance. Maybe I'm just splitting hairs here, but a person may have depression caused by a chemical imbalance and it may be that person's fault and they may have been able to do something to prevent it. Even if it isn't their fault, it is their responsibility. If I have a problem, it's my responsibility to solve it or find help to solve it (whether it's depression or even cancer). Too often I see people trying do absolve themselves of responsibility because of something biological.

That said, I again agree that depression does not make someone a failure. And calling someone a failure for being depressed is probably not too helpful.

Cynthetiq

Why do you care? It's what someone thinks, it's the opinion someone is entitled to. It's something they formulate based on criteria that they alone create and understand. It's something that you are powerless to control yet feel the need to try to.

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