Jinn

Post length seems to be inversely proportional to the number of people willing to read it, so I've split this into three seperate sections. Read as many or as few as you want to.

On a personal note:

I wasn't joking. All told, it probably took three hours to write and re-write my OP so that I could present my point without undue offense. As I noted above, I spend a great deal of time reading the replies to threads I create and just as long writing my replies. I hope, perhaps, that this might dissuade some of the ideas that I'm:

"extremely arrogant", "hold deeply ignorant opinions," "[have the inability to]say anything of value about depression," that I'm "a control freak" with "half-assed notions," "so self-important that I feel compelled to share my ignorance with innocent bystanders," "a drunk" "mad at my father for calling me a loser", have a "lofty, arrogant, holier than thou, I'm better than attitude," am unable to "LEARN from those who knew more than [I do]", "undecuated," with "truckloads of issues to deal with concerning my alcholic father" and I certainly hope that I can prevent "huge chunks of your soul" from dying when you continue to read my posts.

I've read each and every reply in this thread at least once, and I've spent many hours talking to friends, family, my girlfriend, my girlfriend's roommate (who is also my roomate's girlfriend.. ) about this issue. It's not a new one, either.

It's actually quite ironic: this thread idea was spawned by a post I made on another forum almost 5 years ago. In reading through what I thought I knew five years ago, I was shocked at the ridiculous things I said and believed. Some of it was quite appalling, but one thread stuck out. Why? Because thoughout all of the ridiculous things I said, I still agreed with with this one thread.

It was actually called something to the effect of "Depressed People, FUCK YOU! AND SHUT THE FUCK UP!"

With that in mind, perhaps the language used in THIS thread isn't as offensive as it could have been. And perhaps it was still too offensive. Offense is relative, and I think I did a good job of toning it down without losing the essence of the idea. Then again, that forum implicitly encouraged swearing and flaming; an idea I'm glad doesn't persist here. I structured the original post the way I did because I KNEW that it would incite a great deal of people who disagreed.

The one unfortunate (and fortunate) thing about TFP is that you all seem to care about JinnKai rather than the idea at hand. While it's nice to have people address you personally and perhaps offer suggestions about why you think the way you do, it's really not relevant to the majority of my threads. When I post threads, its typically because I either (a) have something I feel very strongly about or (b) have something I don't feel strongly about at all, and want input. In both cases my reason for having the opinion is usually irrelevant. And yet at the same time, it's nice to know that someone might be thinking of me, even if they think I'm an "extremely arrogant" person with "half-assed notions." It's nice. Really, it is.

Hopefully my personal digression will not kill this thread, as it is typically prone to do.

On the thread title:
Forums are an interesting beast, seperated in many ways from real converation. The most notable is the optionality of it; in face-to-face conversation, not responding to the person talking is considered rude. Especially when they're asking you questions.

If you engage someone in a physical conversation, they're societally obligated to respond with something, even if it's "bag off, stranger." If you've been exposed to internet advertising in any form or been a member of any forums for a while, you know that communication is very competitive. The things that stick out in your mind get your attention and your reading, and the others do not. Understandly, I wanted people to read this thread. As we discussed on the first page, if I had made the title "If I were depressed, I'd feel like a failure" or "You are a failure if you continually allow depression to negatively impact your life" it wouldn't have gotten nearly as many reads or replies as it did. Similarly, if I'd phrased the OP with a lot of what-ifs and maybe's, I wouldn't have gotten as many replies.

That's the other facet of conversation which has always been of peculiar interest to me. You often get much better, thorough, and decisive communication if you can rile the other person up. If I hadn't taken a stance and merely asked "If you're depressed, are you a failure?" I estimate my post-reply rate would have been about 10. People would have chimed in their individual opinions, maybe disagreed, and left. But with an OP that clearly takes a stance, people will actually fight to make their opinion heard. It's the nature of the forum world, and I stand by the tone and title of my post.

If I wanted to post something so that everyone could chime in and then agree, I wouldn't even bother. I see too many threads that seem to be garnering "support" for an idea without ever presenting the opposition. And it's often why I find myself playing devil's advocate; each side has a position that needs to be strongly presented, in every argument. I believe that it is ONLY by the strong presentation of these extremes that we can truly evolve "humanity, sexuality, and philosophy."

And that's why I've created threads on thing like virtualization, mental control, procrastination, addiction, thankfulness, authority, abuse of authority, abuse of welfare programs, excellence, relationship paradigms, using drugs to treat depression, critical thinking, and RESPECT.


Most importantly, however, I believe it. People who use depression or sadness as excuses for failure are losers AND failures in my book. And that brings me to the last part:

On depression:


After easily another 6 hours reading and re-reading your many insightful replies, it appears that most who dissent disagree with (4), and carry that disagreement into the rest of my post.

Point (4) was quite important, because I acknowledged that many people would not agree. If you feel that emotions must be allowed to reign (perhaps at times interfering with our well-being) then you disagree with 4.

What followed (4) was my opinion, based in THAT frame of mind. If you don't think emotions should be controlled, then you won't believe negative emotion is a failure, and you'll certainly disagree with me.



I strongly disagree. I think that belittling, although horrible, does not have to be the "WORST thing" you can do for someone. My past is not much different from OzOz's, actually. And, as I acknowledged in my original post, everyone has a bad childhood. Everyone has assholes who cheat them, steal from them, break their heart, tell them they're stupid and ugly. What makes us above them is (a) not returning the favor and (b) using it to make ourselves stronger. While I do not mean to belittle your experience Oz, we've all been there. My personality, however, refused to let that bother me. My bipolar sister who ran away when she was 16 before of my totalarian father had a personality like many here. She was an escapist. Rather than accept the ridiculousness that was some of my father's behavior, she left.

To me, that's failing. I used everything that my father said and did to make me a better person. I wrote down things that he did and said that I didn't myself want to repeat. I listened to the critiques that he did give me, for they held insight into truth. Most people don't complain for the hell of it - they complain because they have a legitimate concern about your behavior or your actions. And unless they're doing it for a purely selfish reason, we should listen, and improve. This thread is a perfect example. It's been made perfectly clear to me that my writing style (different than my verbal style) appears to be quite arrogant, and I'm using that as motivation to remove that tendency of my writing. It doesn't mean I stop and whine about how mean everyone on TFP is, even as tempting as it is. It's tempting to us all, and I that is why I felt it so necessary to deem depression failure. I'm certainly guilty of it myself, and that makes it failure. And yet, that label does not bother me. It reminds me to avoid that behavior in the future. It's positive, rather than negative. The most powerful people in the world, I believe, are those that can turn all negative things, from people's behavior and actions to truly traumatizing things, into positive action. Failing to do so is.. well, failure.

If no one ever told you that it was not okay to remain depressed all your life, what would stop you from doing exactly that?

The issue addressed in the OP is that most people are NOT clinically (or chemically) depressed. They are simply whining and making excuses for their lackluster performance. And I fail to see any logical argument to the contrary! How can one defend excusing bad behavior as a good thing?

You're absolutely correct, and I agree with you both.

That's precisely the POINT of this thread! Most people don't understand what "depressed" are, and simply need to be told that their excuse isn't going to work. The legitimately "depressed" are covered by (8).Each choice we make causes a ripple effect in our lives: when things happen to us, it is the reaction we choose that creates the difference between the sorrows of our past and the joy in our future.
This is also the reason for my post. How I got over my depression? I don't know if it was me, my parents, or my peers. Something made me feel like an internal failure. What kind of person are you, JinnKai? You're going to let what these assholes have said about you shape you? You're going to let them make you a failure?

And I said no. I decided that I was the only one who would ever be in control my emotions, and that letting "depression" take me over would be the ultimate failure. I believe in something called the Warrior's Code. If you disagree with this code, then it's again unlikely that you'll agree with me:

At the foundation of proper attitude is the belief that you are guaranteed victory as long as you do not quit. One learns how to overcome temporary discomforts on their path towards victory. They understand that all worthwhile accomplishments come through hard work and perseverance, and a warrior is the epitome of those qualities. After all, if it was easy, everyone would do it, and then it would not have the same value. Indeed the warrior attitude is priceless and cannot be bought. It is only earned through hard work and discipline.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel