abaya

Hi ladies, me again...

I know we already talked about this a while ago (at least, one aspect of it). But it's come to my attention again, while browsing through the Politics and 2008 Election forums, that there is a serious dearth of female voices in those areas. It bothers me.

I don't know what to do about it, or if anything can be done. I KNOW y'all have opinions, strong ones, on politics... but why don't you want to discuss them in the same way that we discuss other things on TFP? I want to hear those voices, to know what you have to say about these important ideas. We used to have some hard-core female opinions in Politics. What happened to them?

Should we have parallel threads on every political topic in the Ladies' Lounge? I know we tried that earlier in the campaign, and some of you took to posting there... and that was really encouraging. But at the same time, we don't want to have simultaneous threads on every political topic, running in two forums. Is there a way that we can we merge all this, somehow? Or are there just never going to be any other women posting in the politics forum?

Insight from you ladies?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

genuinegirly

I post there! Not as frequently or as verbose as I do here, though.

There's more of a sense of acceptance and community in the Ladies' Lounge. I feel more ready to open up and share, less inclined to back away from a topic because people might notice if I don't respond.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

abaya

Yes, and I'm always very happy when you post there! And I do understand the difference in tone in the Ladies' Lounge definitely. But even in the LL, we don't have a lot of political threads getting started... and I just wonder sometimes, are TFP women not that interested in politics, in general? I don't believe that's true (I can name several of you off the top of my head whom I KNOW are into politics!)... but why aren't the women's voices louder around here?

I used to be deathly afraid of Politics, seriously. I hated going in there. It was one of the reasons I never wanted to be a mod, for several years... that requirement to "be okay with the Politics forum." But then this whole campaign season got fired up, and hell, I was head over heels in that forum before I knew it. It was great. There was no other place to talk about the all-important election... and I wanted to know what all the other women thought, as well. The LL threads were great--so many of you spoke up. But there hasn't been a whole lot of participation in recent weeks, and I'm trying to figure out what's up.

So it's just a big question mark for me... lookin' for answers here, not just about why you don't feel comfortable in the Politics forum, but what suggestions you have for how we can change it. Not how the mods can change it, not how the guys already posting there can change it (though of course that always helps)--but how can we, as women, change the ethos?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

genuinegirly

Now there is the million-dollar question. I hope some other ladies have some ideas, because I'm stumped!

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

snowy

I post there, albeit not frequently. The tone of the Election coverage forum has been a bit different than that of the traditional Politics forum.

I often don't post to threads that have posts of a certain tone in them. The more people are able to have an actual functioning discussion of a topic without it devolving into roundabout namecalling, the more interested I am and the more likely I am to take part. Another "turn off" I have in regards to the Politics forum is how the threads often turn out to be repeats of other threads because people are unwilling to approach a topic with an interest to understanding the opposition or unwilling to open their minds to the possibility of an opposing viewpoint.

Obviously, I think we try our best to encourage intelligent discussion at the TFP, but there are some threads in Politics that fall short of the mark.

I'm not sure what we can do to encourage more diverse posting, or to change the feeling that Tilted Politics often gives me. I'll let you know if I figure it out.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Supple Cow

I think the difference in tone is a symptom, not the problem. I personally think that men and women are just wired differently. Our definitions of competition (and thus, discussion or debate) are vastly different. There is a biological basis for the evolution of the us vs. them variety in men and the "let's strive together" version in women. I am not a person who surrounds herself with people who agree with me. In fact, I prefer it when people disagree because it creates an opportunity for growth. However, growth becomes impossible in a situation where everyone is just trying to "win" - in there, you have to waste so much energy dodging bullets that it seems like a big waste of time and I simply don't need the headache. The men all seem to be enjoying themselves though. I find other reading material and outlets for my political thoughts.

Good luck! I really think you'll need it.

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

PonyPotato

For the most part, I don't post in politics largely because I can't just post my response and come back later to read other responses to the OP - political threads usually turn into back-and-forth arguments about something not-very-related-to-the-OP and I just don't enjoy trying to keep up with threads like that. I've tried that with a handful of non-political threads (one that I started, trying to keep discussion going) and even that wore me out.

I'd rather talk to one person about politics than try to read, understand, and reply to the viewpoints of a handful of people all going on and on and off on tangents.

__________________
"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

Peaches

I think Supple Cow has some good points. I've peeked into Politics from time to time and it seems to me somewhat like a slug fest. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just not suited for my personality type. I'm passionate about my political views and I enjoy a good one on one political debate with those who hold different views. I guess I'm just quietly passionate in my beliefs rather than "in your face" political.

jewels

I carefully select the political threads I read. One thread often rehashes the other and you hear the same voices repeating their same sentiments in a different frame.

When something evokes my passion, I post what I believe or feel and may or may not keep up with the thread, depending on the direction it takes. As I've voiced before, when it becomes a fight to the death, count me out. That's just plain silly.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

abaya

All good feedback (and I hope the TFP men are reading this, too)! I guess for me it can be frustrating, because I know that if a whole heap of TFP women started posting regularly in politics, I think it WOULD change the tone in there. In my view, we NEED to speak up, to change the ethos ourselves... not wait for the climate to become more welcoming, but to change the climate with our own words and style. Because heck, I think we all know that the climate's never gonna change on its own in there, not without others coming and shifting the tone.

I guess I don't really believe in the whole biological difference between genders that strongly (though I understand what you mean, SC, about men being more competitive--it's just that I'm super competitive, too), so it puzzles me why both online and in real life, I know so few women who are willing to get into a good, heated, political discussion and throw some weight around. I'm trying to understand why that is. Is it because of what SC said, about biology? Is it really that simple? I don't know. I'm definitely more comfortable with one-on-one than I am in a group as well... but this isn't a group, it's 2-dimensional online interaction, where we have all the time in the world to compose a response. So for me, TFP is a lot less threatening than a similar conversation would be in the real world.

Throughout this campaign season, I have never cared so much about politics before--it seems essential to understanding so much of the greater world around us, the powers that would and would not be--and while I spent most of my life until now lurking around in the political shadows, now I want to be a part of it. I guess it's just feeling rather lonely, and I'm carrying that over from real life into my perceptions of politics on TFP. Maybe it's overly idealistic of me--not the first time that's happened, heh--but I do want to understand the phenomenon, of why the average woman does not want to get into an argument about politics, while the average man doesn't mind.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

anti fishstick

I will read the responses more in depth later but just reading the OP, I have to say that I am WAY intimidated by politics. I've never been outspoken in real life. Mostly quiet and keep to myself type.. Never opened up in group discussions when I went to school, etc. I try to keep up with politics/current events to be somewhat informed, but I never feel it is enough to make an educated opinion about anything. I browse some of the political threads and there is so much back and forth that it is hard to keep up with and would feel awkward to just step right in as it often deviates from the OP. Maybe it is ego. And I don't like dealing with that...

__________________
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~Anais Nin

abaya

I can DEFINITELY understand that. I don't think anyone likes dealing with ego, especially on the internet when it gets super-sized.

But on the other hand, what's the alternative? Let the egos run wild and have free reign to say and act however they like? I don't know, like I said... maybe I'm too idealistic. But I'm tired of feeling like ought to sit along the sidelines and post in women-only areas because those controlling the discourse are too inconsiderate to back up and make the space feel safe to others. I mean, isn't that what's really going on here?

It's a freaking internet forum. We're all 2-dimensional here, and have little-to-no effect on each other in real life. This should be a space where we feel MOST comfortable talking to strangers about our opinions, and yet we don't. Why are we afraid of each other? The whole construct just frustrates me. I don't like to participate in any space where one group is passively minimized (and where that same group doesn't choose to assert itself against the loudest voices, either), and it's starting to get under my skin around here, lately. I feel stuck.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

SabrinaFair

I love politics. In fact, my real life is consumed by politics. It has an influence on all aspects of my life--personal, professional, and academic. But no, I don't post on the political boards much, mainly because it's a nice change of pace to be able to talk about something else for a change.

That, and I agree with what's been said, in that most of the threads end up becoming a back-and-forth argument between a handful of people. It reminds me of some brilliant words spoken by an old professor in the Poli Sci dept. of my university--"You can't discuss religion or politics with someone on the other side, because all conversations are going to end with, 'Fuck you, you're an asshole.'" I don't quite agree with his quote; I do believe there is a possibility for healthy debate. But it's hard, especially among intelligent, opinionated people....and there are a lot of those on the TFP.

__________________
"With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."
-Desiderata

abaya

Good to know, and understandable.

I can see what you mean (and your professor)... but it's kind of paradoxical, isn't it? Intelligent, opinionated people can't have a healthy debate?... See, I'm not so much caring about what side of the debate you're on (liberal/conservative, what have you), but I want to know why it's all men in there, and women just don't feel comfortable posting. And why I keep seeing these attitudes in the real world, as well.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

anti fishstick

there is actually an interesting video that tackles this phenomenon. it was a simple question about hillary running for president and they would interview women on the street... the women would decline to answer, or, if they happened to be with their male counterpart, they would try to get him to answer for them! it was actually sad to see and it happened more often than not. this is an issue that goes beyond tfp and just the social fabric of how we were raised. also take into consideration women didn't get the vote until what, the '20s? We were always 2nd class citizens for many centuries. This kind of stuff doesn't just doesn't change over night... I mean, we're in the 21st century, we have the first Black president, but we are still so behind on gay rights, for example, and roe v. wade is also being threatened by pro choicers, etc. etc. I don't know where exactly i'm going with this.. but yeah, it is an issue, and it's interesting to see.

I appreciate you trying to shake the status quo, abaya.

now if i can find that video..

__________________
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~Anais Nin

abaya

That's exactly what I'm talking about. It makes me angry with both genders, for perpetuating the system and conforming to what the other side expects from them. Just going along all nicey-nicey, because we don't want to rock the boat or something.

It's as if there's a little voice inside the average woman's head that says, "You know what? You don't know anything about politics. Let the men talk about it... they know more than you do. Go read about celebrities and don't worry about these things, they're too big for you to think about." And that voice isn't even male. It's their own voice. And they believe it.

My desire is for women to learn how to tell that voice to shut the fuck up, and then to go out and TALK politics, and KNOW what they're talking about, because it's our world, too. There's just no excuse for this kind of behavior, not in this day and age, not in a country where women aren't required to be veiled, or beaten for not going out with a male relative or husband, or accused of being a whore for showing their legs, or banned from learning how to read. There is no reason to believe that we are any less capable of throwing down the gauntlet on politics and getting ourselves into the ring, than men are. Absolutely no reason at all. We can even talk about politics here in the LL, if that feels safer to you--but START the threads, get things going, TALK about things.

Change the conversation, simply by taking part in it. Take the initiative.

That's all I'm trying to say here. And I want to know what each of you think about what I'm saying. Respond, get pissed off, tell me you don't like me, whatever--that's fine! Just get in here and TALK already.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

PonyPotato

My voice? Says nothing about what I know or what others know in relation to me. Rather, I realize that I don't want to participate in what I know from experience will fall apart into one big name-calling and back-and-forth-about-nothing argument. Why do I want that negativity in my life? I don't. So I vote, I encourage others to think about their choices and re-think negative comments, but I do so within groups and one-on-one conversations with people I know in real life.

Honestly, I'm a bit annoyed with the "just get in there and ARGUE!" tone in your typing about women in politics on here. If I wanted to, I'd do it - I don't need you pushing me. I prefer to keep my political discussions in places where I am comfortable with the idea that I will be heard and understood and given a chance to explain my point of view, so that's what I do. I prefer to talk to people about politics in person, since there are rules of engagement (i.e. MANNERS) taken into account during real-life conversations that make controversial discussions more civil and respectful.

__________________
"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

abaya

Here's a comment from a male TFP member:
-----Added 7/11/2008 at 05 : 10 : 46-----
Right, and I can understand that--but for me, I feel like if there are more women jumping into Politics (the forum) then just that change in itself will help make the tone more positive, or different, or I don't know... something better than what it is, I feel. Because I personally don't like going in there, either--but I'm looking for ways to improve it, and to get new voices in there would help, in my opinion.
And I appreciate you getting in here (on this thread) and telling me what you think. I definitely understand wanting to feel comfortable before engaging in a political discussion--but what I really want is to make our Politics forum a place like that, instead of being a swamp of negativity.

Really, it's fine if you don't want to get in there, as I said--I hated going in there for most of the time I've been on TFP. And we can post political stuff right here in LL as well, if that's more comfortable. But I'm just interested in hearing more political opinions and thoughts from the women of TFP, in general. I'm not attempting to "force" anyone to do it. But I think it would be powerful and transformative to the forum if we had more of it. That's my point.
-----Added 7/11/2008 at 05 : 12 : 57-----
Btw, sorry I missed this in my first response--but I don't see you as the "average woman" at all.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

noodle

I'm going to answer the OP initially, as others have done and think more on it.
But, when I do look in on the Politics forums, I end up getting frustrated by the same people over and over again with page-long quotes backing up the same argument in the previous thread I tried to read. It is getting better and I think that there is a little more respect than in previous years, but I don't feel comfortable speaking up.
A few rare times I responded to an OP, it was to answer a question and typically prompts no responses. The conversation is derailed at times so far off the original topic that I guess my thoughts don't apply to the argument/disagreement occuring at that part in the thread.
I tend to not post as much when I feel like it almost has to start with the phrase "In regards to the original post...." two pages down into another discussion off the OP.

I'm used to arguing my political thoughts and defending my beliefs a lot in real life.
I hesitate to do it on the TFP because it feels like I don't have much to add.
There are more people on here that are similar in their views and some that are so diametrically opposed that I feel I can't communicate with them.
As to how to make an atmosphere more encouraging to women to post... I wish I had some idea.
I'll admit I've got nothing, but I will give it some thought over the next few days.
I love being exposed to intelligent women, though. You all are awesome.

__________________

abaya

I've had that experience several times as well... like my posts are just invisible, and people just keep scrolling right on past, intent on keeping up their argument with X or Y person to the death. I dislike that dynamic very much. My method (don't know if it works, but it helps me assert myself) has been to post again, and directly ask Z person why he/she has not responded to the question/point I had in post #___. That has often gotten some kind of response. But I dislike having to do that in the first place, as that's not the protocal in other TFP forums.
Yes. Especially on the diametrically-opposed thing. I feel like there HAS to be more gray area, you know?... I just need to know how to find it. Not every political discussion has hard-and-fast positions where you choose one or the other... it's the spectrum that makes it interesting, and that's what I'd like to see more of, in there.

Thanks for your thoughts, noodle. I look forward to hearing about your ideas on the issue.
-----Added 7/11/2008 at 06 : 20 : 38-----
Another post from a male TFP'er (thanks to all the men for chiming in!):

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Supple Cow

+1

Okay, as an anthropologist, you must know that the impossibly complex system of things that drive human behavior can never be boiled down into one thing. So, it puzzles me how quickly you can write off a quite scientific idea as something that is too simple to be a factor in explaining a certain trend. Obviously there are many reasons for our many behaviors and ours will all differ to some extent, without fail. From what I gather, you were looking for some kind of overarching thing that you CAN apply to more women than not - something more statistically significant than the countless other factors that also factor in, like our geographical location, family structure, socio-economic class, age, place in history, and so on.

But let me expound on the idea a bit. I've said this once before (notably, in a Politics thread), but the word 'competition' actually comes from the Latin competare, meaning 'to strive together'. Typically, men have this idea that it means there has to be a winner and a loser and that it's me vs. you or us vs. them. Women tend to actually strive together - often toward a common goal, but sometimes not - usually leaving out the part about tearing down the competitors. I picked this idea up from a that encouraged women to join the race, as it were, by pointing out that the once male-dominated sport of running did not mean that there was any good reason for women to not also be involved.

So my original point was not that men are more competitive than women. It's that our definitions of 'competition' are night and day. I see the world as this tragic joke on women because it is, historically (and with only very few examples in the distant past to the contrary) a man's world. I could go on at length about how this (on average) makes women able to put themselves in another's shoes while men are exceptionally bad at it (especially when it comes to imagining life as a woman). Instead, I will point you to this thread: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...ere-chick.html

More puzzling to me is that you seem to be asking a question about differences in sexes and wanting the answer to be about something other than sex. (!) This whole discussion and the environment in which we are having it frames it in terms of sex. Sex is a biological difference. It's more concrete (though no more measurable) than culture and its effects on human behavior. Our bodies work in different ways, and it is impossible for this to not have an effect on how we see the world - our bodies are the lenses through which we see the world, our tools for interacting with it.

Whether you fall into the fat part of the bell curve or not, that bell curve exists and there have been many studies that support the idea that women tend to relate to the world in an I-You fashion while men typically relate in terms of I-It. So you can not want to have children or be the cook in the household and despise all the traditionally feminine garb, but you are still in here trying to build some kind of consensus or find some way to get the women to cooperate, and that just isn't the point of the Politics forum.

I hate the Politics Forum because its very nature (the current population in there which I am assuming you do not wish to suddenly exclude) forces a kind of discourse where complex things must be stated simply. Human beings are not simple, but the whole arena of politics involves analyzing and manipulating people as objects (I-It: the male paradigm). My simple answer to this OP is that I hate that. I just hate it. You can decide for yourself that everything I said is just hooey or you can agree with some or all of it, but it won't change that I hate interacting in that way. I even gave it a try by answering your OP as simply as I could, and then you (a woman I happen to know understands human behavior better than you are letting on in this thread) were forced to respond to that simplicity with more simplicity, further mangling the larger meaning I originally wished to impart. And what did it do? It pissed me off!

So, I am asking you, what is your goal? Are you trying to get the women to fit Politics or are you trying to get Politics to fit the women? I honestly don't think you can do both. But that doesn't mean that when, on occasion, it happens to be less trouble than it is worth, I won't still go in there and have my hand at some reasonable discourse. That is, until it gets to the point where I am just banging my head against a wall again.

(FWIW, this thread has actually been useful to me because I am warming up for the cultural geography paper I am about to write. The politics forum has not proven to be useful to me in that way. Hopefully, and I say this as a woman, this turned out to be useful to you for whatever your purposes are as well.)

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

abaya

Hey, I'm frankly pretty damn excited to be pissing some people off. It's getting them to post some interesting stuff. And you ladies say that you don't like to argue? (Said with tongue-in-cheek, but really... why not post the same kind of thing in the non-LL forums?)As for my goal... good question. I guess I was hoping to work on both... probably not fully accomplish both, but at least try to merge things a little better. I want women to feel empowered, to know that their voices and opinions count (especially the quieter women--none of whom have posted in this thread yet, btw)--to try and speak up, get pissed off, stick their necks out into politics and see if they can shift the tone in there--but at the same time, I'm challenging the current frequenters of Politics to pay attention to this, and to make some damn room for the less confrontational people in there. Kind of a meet-in-the-middle thing.

But also, I think another motivation for posting this thread was partly selfish... to give me a reason to not walk away from this place for a while. I don't know if it's my own perception or what, but I feel somehow lonely as a female member of TFP these days. I'm more tired, grouchy, edgy in here... not least because of my real-life stress (which is building to a peak, in the next 6 weeks), but because I just miss having more balanced views around here, a community that I have valued for many years.

As I mentioned above, politics has become a central part of my life during this election season, and I want to share that enthusiasm and engagement with others. And TFP politics is not really cutting it, at least not until the discussion in there changes somehow. So I want to see what can be done to change things up, if anything, or if we should just abandon hope and let it continue to stew in its own juices, or what.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Supple Cow

FTW. Remember when I got grouchy and walked away? Grouchy was putting it nicely. I was fucking rabid. And then I had to remind myself that TFP was not my whole life. In the end, what's more important - your sanity, or improving TFP? You can achieve the latter through the former, but the board's not really well suited to make it work the other way around as consistently. I mean, whenever we grow as people in our real lives, the TFP grows. Reverse that sentence and it is not always true. Such is life, right?

I think an interesting experiment would be to let this thread go on a few more days as is to see if there are any others who haven't weighed in on the OP and then move it into the Politics forum, attach a challenge statement and see what happens. The challenge could be to simply restate the main themes of the thread as it existed in LL in order to demonstrate who actually understood the points we made.

Or, to put it in male terminology, it could become an exercise in arguing for your opponent's views. That's right, Y-chromosomers, you heard me. I said you're bad at understanding other people's views. What are you going to do about it?

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

ngdawg

I've found that in any political discussion, the name of the game is "gangup".
I'm well aware my views are way odder than most, but it seems that expressing them in a political atmosphere brings out the clubs-conservatives think I'm liberal, liberals think I'm rightwing when the fact is, I'm neither.
So I say my piece and get the hell out. (Hm, neither and piece-same sound, letters reversed) Annnyways....
I think men and women approach politics in a totally different way from one another. With men, it's a pissing contest of sorts. Whoever can back up their version of events the most thinks he's the winner. Whoever can be the most insulting and condescending at the same time thinks he's the smartest.
Women are not, by nature, the hunters and killers-we seem to approach the same issues with a more personallly analytical mind, ie; how will this all affect me and mine. This, of course, isn't across the board, but I have seen, both here and elsewhere, females stop the bickering and move on more so than the guys. I have even seen, mostly elsewhere, that men more often than not will resort to calling the women's POV inferior simply because of gender.
I'm simply not interested in losing my temper over things, especially in forums. I spent a couple years in a political forum and I was so bitchy, it spilled over into real life. Just ain't worth it. Remarkably, for kicks, I visited that forum and the same people are still sticking it to each other. Sheesh!

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

abaya

Right... though I'd say that it's still very present here, but more subtle because no one will outright SAY that a woman's POV is inferior, but they'll march right on by the female responses and thereby make them less valid as a result.

But then there's also the comment made by another male TFP'er here, which is that many of the male participants feel ignored/sidelined, too. So it's not just gender going on here. I do think that gender is certainly a part of it, but obviously not everything.

That's why I think just getting in there and posting, LOTS, on as many topics as you feel relevant, no matter what your gender is... will eventually start to make an impact and force the tone of the discussion to shift a bit. If we all just keep on doing the same things as before, then of course nothing will change. Do we want to maintain status quo?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

jewels

So... like 5 or 6 responses in this thread sums it up. That may be the problem. We don't have enough interest, so we'd all have to commit to staying active in those threads to feel supported and change the tone, which ain't no easy task with life around here somewhere.

Do you think we can feel heard like that? C'mon ladies. There have to be more of us that have an opinion to express~!

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

ngdawg

No, but I do want to maintain my sanity, or what's left of it.
I notice that once someone gets on a beatdown path, it's hard for them to stop-soon as they see a "nemesis" post in a political thread, you can bet your paycheck, their response will immediately follow. I have no desire to feed that animal.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

abaya

12 woman have replied to this thread so far. Surely we have more women than that who frequent TFP regularly.

If you are a woman and you log into TFP at least once a day, I'd love to hear from you in this thread, whatever your thoughts are about politics. Please, speak up. We need your opinion.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Meditrina

I think you already know how I feel about this. I read some of the political threads, but I find it hard to comment on something that I don't understand. Social studies, history, politics, etc. was never a subject that interested me all through school. To this day, I try to read/listen/pay attention to all of it, but it does not hold my interest. I am trying though, really I am. I tend to read more of what you ladies say, hoping to learn and understand. I *did* vote this year though, with some knowledge behind my vote. and next year I hope to know even more before I vote. I was trying to learn about the whole presidential election that I neglected my local politics.

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"Toughness is in the soul and spirit, not in muscles." ~Alex Karras

abaya

Good to hear from you, Medi. Btw, one of our male TFP'ers has started a thread along these lines, over at http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/general...scussions.html ... I encourage y'all to get involved there as well, since it's open to posting for both men and women.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

ItWasMe

Before moving anything out of the LL, please delete my posts. If I wanted to be in the Political Forum, I would be there. From what I have seen, the PF is usually nothing more than an "us vs. them", "bring-your-biggest-club-and-your-best-book-of-insults", aggressive bunch of bullies. It's a damned pissing contest, and I have no intention of getting wet.

The entire political forum reminds me of those "religious people raise your hand so we can mock you" threads, or the "Please admit you don't like porn so I can single you out because I think your avitar is sexy and that makes your opinion worthless" thread, or the "If you find this vulgar phrase objectionable when you have posted in exhibition in the past your opinion is now invalid" thread.

I've seen that thread. I don't expect many men to care if some women think they're too rough to play with in the PF. I consider that to be their 'cage matches.' I don't often bother to read them, because I found my dislike for them there carries over to other areas of the forum. And some of them seem like nice human beings, elsewhere.

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"Ok, no more truth-or-dare until somebody returns my underwear" ~ George Lopez

I bake cookies just so I can lick the bowl. ~ ItWasMe

genuinegirly

O my goodness, my experience exactly.

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

PonyPotato

+me.

Since I'm the one with the sexy avatar, y'know.

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"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

snowy

Hahahaha...so we have the Ladies Lounge and the men have Tilted Politics?

Works for me.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

genuinegirly

We could always change Tilted Politics to "Tilted Testosterone Overload"

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

ItWasMe

Now there's an idea I could get behind

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"Ok, no more truth-or-dare until somebody returns my underwear" ~ George Lopez

I bake cookies just so I can lick the bowl. ~ ItWasMe

abaya

If that means I have to stay out of Politics, then no, it doesn't work for me.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Starkizzer

I don't really get to involved in the politics forum for different reasons:
-Sometimes I have no idea what they are talking about.
-Sometimes I have no opinion
-Some of their discussions I feel are moot and discussing them is like beating a dead horse, nothing will come of it.
-I feel like some of the other women here in that I really like/respect most of the members and I don't want what is supposed to be a friendly debate get me heated to the point that I lose that respect. (The men, as innocent as they may think it is, like to goad others just to get a rise out of them)
-Lastly and perhaps most importantly I know what political things are important to me and I show them in other ways:
*I feel my body is mine to do what I please with so I post in exhibition
*I believe in feeling powerful and comfortable with yourself (see above)
*I believe in gay rights and I love my uncle and his spouse and will do what I can for them.
*I believe in pro-choice but I practice this by choosing to take bc to try to avoid such a situation.
*I believe in love and will love my fiance no matter what.
*I believe in respect and will try my best to practice it in all aspects of my life.
*I believe in working hard for the things I want (see all of the above)

So while I may not always post in politics I try to share my beliefs in other ways.

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Frivolity, at the edge of a Moral Swamp, hears Hymn-Singing in the Distance and dons the Galoshes of Remorse. ~Edward Gorey

ItWasMe

Just make sure you wear a helmet. And let us know what time you're expected to return, so we know if we have to don our ninja outfits and go looking for you in there. There are a couple of times I wish I'd been able to come to a fellow LL-er's rescue, but was hampered by real life and didn't see the fight until it was over/about over.

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"Ok, no more truth-or-dare until somebody returns my underwear" ~ George Lopez

I bake cookies just so I can lick the bowl. ~ ItWasMe

abaya

Hehe, thanks ItWasMe. But I think one aspect of it for me is that I LIKE going in there, for the most part... there's a large part of me that loves a good fight, and I'm sure that's no surprise to most of the members who know me well. But yes, there are also many times when I just wish another female voice would join the fray, not to "rescue" anyone so much as to just have another voice in there, to change the tone a bit. I mean, the men have the Titty Board for their own little "area," so I don't see why Politics should be as skewed as it is towards the men... not when we have as many powerful and intelligent women around here as we do.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran