snowy

I think part of the problem is that most women around here don't see Politics as a "good fight". The debate in there tends to be the same people rehashing the same issues over and over again. What's the point in taking part, when we're going to end up beating that dead horse once more and nothing will be gained or learned?

I understand you would like other women to post in Politics, abaya, in the hopes of changing the tone of that forum, but I just don't see that happening.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

abaya

Eh, so are you saying this is a lost cause?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

snowy

It is unless the men present in that forum start working to change the tone themselves, which is unlikely. There's only so much we can do ourselves, y'know

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

abaya

Yeah, but no one likes to be accused of being The Problem all on their own, y'know?

Which is why this thread is kind of two-pronged... we can't just sit back and say, "Change, or we won't post!" because I'm not convinced that the majority of the female members here would venture in there, even if it were the safest-feeling forum on TFP (which it isn't). I still maintain the opinion that many women, often the quietest ones, actually believe that they don't have much to add in those areas... and this is something that I really want to understand, sociologically, even if we can't change it on TFP.

I also know that a lot of men are reading this thread and thinking about the issue... the abundant PM's I've received are evidence of this--a LOT of men don't like the tone in Politics, and many of them stay out of it for exactly the same reasons that many women do--so I'm still not convinced it's ALL a gender thing, that's too simplistic. It's difficult for them to change it all on their own, too, since that forum in particular has a culture all its own. Do we have any particular, specific pointers for the dominant voices in that forum, tips for changing what is going on in there?

The other question is, maybe some of them really just don't care about hearing what more women have to say. Not a nice thought, but quite possibly true. We already heard from one male member (in another thread) who stated that he just wanted to read more about wet pussies in the LL, not our politics.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

snowy

I must have missed that post; could you link it?

I don't think it's a gender thing, either. I think it's a people thing. I think there are people on this board who are tired of banging their head against the Wall of Tilted Politics. I'm fairly sure females aren't the only ones.

Again, I'm not sure that I have specific pointers for the people who post there on a regular basis. I would say we ought to discourage dogpiling on people we disagree with and instead encourage healthy debate. That is the crux of the problem; healthy debate is hard to find in such a place. How do we get back to doing that there? We seem to be capable of doing it elsewhere on the board, such as us fine ladies are doing here. What is it about Politics--about that forum in particular--that keeps that from taking hold over there? It's not the lack of women posting, that's certain.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

abaya

Yup, it's here: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/2008-us...ml#post2557369 See, I guess I feel that it both is and isn't a gender thing. To be clear, I don't think it HAS to be a gender issue, and that's been my point on this thread... if anything, these patterns are just a wider reflection of the things we have all learned in our lifetimes of gender socialization, but they are not hard-core wirings. I do know a lot more women than men who would rather not rock the political boat, so to speak, and that does bother me somewhat... but I don't know if it's important enough of an association to keep harping on it (as I have been doing, perhaps because I don't know where else to go).Excellent question, and the reason for this thread's existence.

I started this in the LL because I do feel that we have a more "fluid" style of communication about touchy subjects over here--whether that's related to gender or not, I don't know. I didn't want people getting jumpy and possibly defensive, as often happens in Politics. I also knew that if I started this thread in Politics directly, a lot of women would simply not post on the thread--and that's what I'm trying to avoid so far. I want it to be a "safe" thread--and if I do move it to Politics, I want it to remain safe.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

ngdawg

Keep it here.
What I'm noticing here is that, even with all the opinions as to the whys, no one has said "Your opinion is wrong and here's why" or words to that effect.
That happens a lot on the political forum I used to go to and it didn't matter what gender the sayer was-it was just accepted to "debate" that way.
Gets old right quick.
But just like in school, it's the loudest and pushiest who end up taking over because the ones who just want to have a dialogue find it's impossible.
I've personally been noticing that no sooner do I make a comment in a political area than a particular poster is there with quotes and "corrections", so I gave up.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Supple Cow

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I think the choice to participate in a forum at all is not "what can I add?" but "what can this add to me?" I go in there whenever I see an interesting topic and I read the posts as a listener, and if I feel that I am likely to get something useful out of it I will post.

I don't think they want to change and I honestly don't care because it's not my problem. I realize it IS your problem, and you feel passionately about it beyond moderatorial duties because you personally enjoy the fight. I prefer to let my own aggressions out on a punching bag or by pounding the pavement for a few miles. In the end, I keep coming back to the same thought. From , which was serendipitously the quotation of the day in my Franklin-Covey 7 Habits themed planner pages yesterday:

"Typically, we seek first to be understood. People don't listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply, filtering things through their own autobiographies."
(from the section about Habit 5: seek first to understand, then to be understood)

Without going as far as saying anything is a lost cause or joining a movement for change in TFP political discourse, I will just say that I think enough has been said in here for anybody who is really interested in changing Politics to try and inspire change over there with some new ideas. Rallying unwilling or dispassionate troops from over here doesn't seem to be the best way to fight that particular battle.

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

abaya

Funny, I'm getting that feeling from quite a few posts here. Doesn't seem a whole lot different than a politics thread, in that sense. So maybe it's about time I moved it over, and I'll just let the thread go and will take a break for myself after that. I'll do that when I finish this grant application I've been working on, tonight.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

little_tippler

abaya, take note that at least one female member is unhappy to see her posts, made in the LL, transferred into the politics forum.

With regards to the issue at hand:

There are many reasons why I don't post in the Politics forum often, as I don't post in several other sections of the TFP often. I don't see it as a problem. I post where I want to and I'm not scared of anyone.

Politics has always been a big part of my life, as my father was a politician himself. It was thrust upon me at a young age, whether I wanted it to be or not. I have the political vein in me too, I know that much. I have been involved in a few activities that involved politics. I also learned that it's not something I want to do with my life, because it's really very tiresome and would suck the life out of me. Politics is very hard work and most times a tough struggle.

My life currently is very busy and politics is not something worth discussing lightly. Not unless you want to engage in a discussion that yields very little and actually tires you out. That's how I feel about it. Most people don't know much about politics, they just like to open their mouths and talk. I don't presume to do that. Many US political issues I am not familiar with in depth, through lack of time, interest, etc. So I'd rather not weigh in with a badly supported opinion - particularly in the area of politics. I'm not about to start posting about Portuguese politics because I think that wouldn't interest most people. It's hard enough finding the time to write about the policies of your own country, let alone someone else's. Unless it's something of general interest our out of the ordinary.

I also agree with other posters here who say that in the TFP politics forum there is a tendency to be some bashing which can deter even the most willing user.

I don't feel that being a woman stops me from posting or from my responses being valid in a politics thread. But it must be said that while girls here tend to be more diplomatic, there are some men in that forum that tend to forget to listen and are poorly mannered. Then also, we all have lives to lead, so why get into an online fuss? It's not worth it.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

abaya

Well hell, LT. What am I supposed to do? People want it moved, people don't want it moved. *throws hands up in the air*

I mean, do we realize what we're talking about here? Clickable links on a screen, which lead into arbitrarily defined "spaces" that are called "Ladies Lounge" or "Politics" or whatever else the creators of this space decided to call them. They are not real delineations. They exist on this 2D space of your computer screen. There is no *real* difference between the LL and Politics, when it comes down to it--except that, for some reason, women feel "safer" posting in LL. I'd like to know why, because yes, I think it does affect our community. People say it's not a gender thing--and yet, some of you don't want this thread moved out of the ladies-only section, so there is SOMETHING about gender going on here. I don't know what to think anymore.

If someone else wants to move this thread (or heck, move it back if it gets moved to Politics), then go ahead. I am personally abstaining from any mod-action with this thread, because I'm just too frustrated to make rational decisions right now. You have my permission to do whatever you want with it.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Supple Cow

abaya-

As much as I was making a case for people to think about differences between the sexes, I think the desire not to have this thread moved is less about that and more about trust. Yes, anyone can read threads in LL. Yes, all of the these forums are arbitrarily designated spaces. But it doesn't matter that it's arbitrary - they have rules that create a kind of safe space. I know a lot about safe spaces from my days as a facilitator, and even though there can be no real privacy here and there is certainly no rule against moving threads to more appropriate forums, I think this space as it is defined should be maintained as is. Obviously at least one woman see this as a safe space, and I think we should respect that.

The spirit of my suggestion to move it came from the idea that maybe a coed discussion about this would be more productive and not because I felt that the actual act of moving it would be important. Besides, that other thread with the meta-discussion seems to be a good enough place for this to continue if men want to be involved.

Also, re-reading what I just quoted you as saying, I realize that you probably were not referring to me in any way since I am not so quiet a person.

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

Starkizzer

I post where ever I feel like I can contribute in a meaningful fashion. Hell their are times I don't post anything in the LL because of that reason. Either what I wanted to say has already been said or I can't really contribute much.
Abaya I think you started a good thread, obviously from the kind of responses it has gotten, and I think it should stay where it started. It prompted me to head over to Politics and look for something I wanted to post in. I did and I think you were the only one who responded. Sometimes I feel like no one even reads some of the other peoples posts. Its like some people just look for the people they know and respond only to theirs over and over again.

I think you have started quite a discussion and many woman have given their reasons as to why they do or do not post in politics, which was the whole point of this thread right? And if nothing else you have gotten this female TFP'er looking at the politics threads even if I don't respond as much.

I kinda wonder how many women post in other threads like the ones in Paranoia. The number of lady users here is lower than men to begin with. imsmrt4u can spend HOURS on the internet and never get bored or tired of looking at it, while I look at it for a few minutes cruise the few sites I'm interested in and leave. I can't stand to stare at the screen for too long.

I love a good debate in person but on the internet I lose my fire too easily and will forget to go back and look at it.

Abaya don't get frustrated people are just the way they are and those who like certain things will always enjoy them and those that don't may give it a try and never look back at it again.

__________________
Frivolity, at the edge of a Moral Swamp, hears Hymn-Singing in the Distance and dons the Galoshes of Remorse. ~Edward Gorey

little_tippler

^Funny, I've been looking at Politics a little more

See, if nothing else, it's given us girls a nudge in the right direction!

I admit I'm like this too.

About this, you can subscribe to threads, that way you'll know when people have posted in it.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

Starkizzer

I've thought about that but I spend so much of my day at school away from computers all the notifications in the world wouldn't help.

*Thanks for responding *

__________________
Frivolity, at the edge of a Moral Swamp, hears Hymn-Singing in the Distance and dons the Galoshes of Remorse. ~Edward Gorey

ngdawg

I'll tell you exactly why. Because of just one or three that LOVE to argue any point any time and they can't here because they're guys.
Every place has'em-the ones that live to argue.
And, to your other post where you think we're telling each other who's wrong-you're wrong Honestly, I just read through this thread and I didn't see anyone do that(except me, just now). Guess it's all in the perception.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

ItWasMe

Keep it here. I think the ladies have clearly answered why they don't post in TPolitics often. Wasn't that the point of this thread?

TPolitics is a different world from the other threads, where we give each other advice or state our opinions. It seems that is the theme of TPolitics, is for side A to one-up side B, or vice versa. I am normally a quiet person, and am not interested in competing in a loud forum like TP.

Offline, I know where I stand on issues, stay informed, and know which boxes to check when voting. But I don't know where most of my friends stand on most political issues. Nor do I care for the most part. There is more to a person's heart, and more to life, than politics.

__________________
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .


"Ok, no more truth-or-dare until somebody returns my underwear" ~ George Lopez

I bake cookies just so I can lick the bowl. ~ ItWasMe

Jenna

I don't post mainly because I'm not the most knowledgeable person when it comes to politics. Sure, I have my view points, and I have strong one's at that - but I don't think I have the knowledge to actually get into a heated debate without doing strong research.

I like to be very comfortable with people when I'm talking politics with them as well.

anti fishstick

my thoughts exactly!

__________________
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~Anais Nin

Grasshopper Green

I've read this thread with interest and decided to respond (finally).

I don't post in Politics because I'm female and the majority of posters are male, but because it's not worth it to me. I get little return value for the time I put into my post. I don't see the point in "me too" posts, and I don't see the point in posting something that someone will bash because I don't have "facts" to back up my opinion. While I'm genuinely interested in reading opposing arguments, if put forth in a respectful manner, I just don't see that going on in there too often. Also, I am interested in military/veterans posts because of hubby's prior service, and on more than one occasion have had his service or patriotism questioned because of his (or my) political leanings. I think that's disrespectful. That is the reason I rarely post in politics.

__________________
"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Formerly Medusa

abaya

I've noticed that some of you don't like to post in politics because you're not comfortable with having to provide "facts" to back up your opinions (correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the interpretation I'm getting).

I find this interesting, and it leads me to ask, what would be your ideal way of discussing politics? Would it mean that "facts" should not be brought into the discussion at all, that it would all revolve around the exchange of opinions? (Sincere question.)

I'm curious about this because I am not sure how people can discuss politics without having some reference to the source of one's opinions, rather than just saying it's their "gut feeling." So personally, I do understand that mentality in the Politics forum--and as long as it's not abused (and I know that it often is--people get very entrenched in that practice, to the point where they show no respect for the actual *person* posting), but I'm curious to know why some of you don't like that aspect, and what would be your ideal way of talking politics.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Grasshopper Green

I don't look at online forums as a place I need to brush up my debate skills, but as an extension of conversation that I might have in real life with a real person. IRL, my conversations are more like the pub discussions we have here. I don't have the time, nor the desire, to scour the internet to provide a bibliography. Given that I have difficulty with translating my thoughts into written words, that is the best I can explain my point of view. I suppose the whole setup and style of the politics forum just irks me. Maybe I'm just biased.

__________________
"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Formerly Medusa