billege

I had my “profound” thought for today.

I was listening to the really awful Black Eyed Peas song "My Humps" and had a thought.

(BTW: It’s awful because not only has music reduced women to T&A on a regular basis, in this song they don’t even have proper names, just “humps” and “lady lumps.” Listening to the singer (Fergie?) it’s exactly like I imagine the thought process of a vapid slut to be: “ men are nice, and buy me ice, because they want my hump.” Oh, now *THAT* is classy…)

As I thought about this, I get to thinking about the Black man's expressed anger and belittlement of women, particularly Black women.

This anger is evidenced by the objectification, belittlement, and sexual reduction of the Black woman to the “bitch” model of a woman. The “bitch” is…well, we all have seen TV enough to know what the difference is between a woman and a “bitch.”
The Black man also expresses his distaste for the Black woman by the Black man's choice of a white woman as "the real prize."
See also: Kanye West’s song “Gold Digger.” Kanye acknowledges the trend (is trend the right word?) for Black men to chose a white woman when he’s “made it.”

You pay enough attention, and you really start to get the idea that Black men don't much like Black women.

Black men are disproportionately jailed, poor, uneducated, unemployed, etc. Black women to lead Black America in almost every category you’ll measure. Black women’s income, education, purchasing power, etc. are all rising in a strong trend over Black men’s same measures. That much is clear from the past decade’s census and market research.

I get to wondering if the Black man's expression of his anger/jealousy at Black women is to belittle, objectify, and vent at the Black woman. We certainly see a lot of negative images of Black women in Black male works of musical expression.

It's not like Black women are equals to Black men, they're generally betters.
The males’ response is to sexually dominate the woman. This is what you see everywhere you look.

A possible example:

"Fitty Cent" and his punk self is obviously a useless man in today's society. He has no education, and nothing to offer society but his anger. He sees the Black woman, holding families together, getting paid for brains, and he hates her. His response is to belittle, as much as possible, her entire gender.

You can extrapolate further, that a man such as “50,” is totally powerless in today's society. He's poor, he's Black, and he’s a criminal.
If America has one person it hates (not that America would admit it), that's really the archetype right there.
So, he's impotent, if not for his rap $$. He sees his brothers also are impotent, and the women driving change. He's shamed at that and so lashes out.

As I was discussing this with my wife (who, if it matters in any shape, is a woman who comes from a Black father, white mother; while I’m white) she said the following:

“My understanding though, is that Black men do not see white women as a prize, but rather a woman that can be controlled by Black men, because a Black woman will not tolerate being controlled by a Black man.”

I thought about that for a minute, and think it ties in to my theory here today.

There's a multitude of reasons Black men go for the white woman, but I think it ties into the rejection of Black women.

When the Black woman rejects his "authority" it's because he has none.
He has no education, no real societal power, and he's pissed cause he can't dominate a “little ole woman.” This, I feel, comes from attitudes of the more “macho” Black male culture. He rejects her and uses his choice of skin color to try and shame the Black woman.

Like saying "look bitch, you may have a degree and a job, but I have a white woman.”

To this, she said:

“So why don't Black men get off of their asses?”

I postulate a reason could be:

No one is there to lead Black male culture.
Though there are strong male Black role models, they're handicapped and ineffective to this point.

They tend to be religious, see: Jessie. Thus they don’t reach the whole population.

These possible leaders also face an overwhelming rejection by those that would be led, see: Bill Cosby.

However, the point of today’s discussion should be weather Black men really are angry at Black women.

Though I’ve touched on a few points, I hope I remained coherent enough to generate some meaningful discussion.

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

NoSoup

Reading over your original post, I'm going to have to mark myself down in the "Strongly Disagree" category.

To be honest, most of what you wrote is just stereotypical B.S - how can you possibly ascertain that black men - as a whole - hate black women...

I don't really think that this is accurate, not by a long shot. In my mind, it just read as more stereotypical bullshit. "Sorry folks - if you're a black man, you have no education, you don't matter to society, and your opinion doesn't matter. Date a white chick"

Eh, I suppose I could go on and on, but I'll leave it at that. No offence intended, we just simply don't share the same view

__________________
I have an aura of reliability and good judgement.

Just in case you were wondering...

Charlatan

Tell this to Sir Mix-A-lot!


(Dial 1-900-MIXALOT and kick them nasty thoughts)

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

billege

I figured it would take all of ten minutes for someone to say just about what you said.

I know it's easy to pick apart what people say on forums because the statements aren't 100% applicable and perfect.
Try resisting that impluse briefly enough to think about the point as a whole, and not deconstruct it.

OBVIOUSLY all Black men to not hate black women.
OBVIOUSLY all Black men are not in jail, have no education, etc.


I am not going to point out all the instances where what I'm discussing exists, because then I'd just play the "let's pick it apart point by point" game, which is a waste of time.

Forums have this overwhelming tendancy to do a point-by-point "you're wrong because" game, and it's really boring. Okay? It misses the point of the whole discussion.
I've been here for years, and it got old a LOOOONG time ago.

Instead of bypassing my point entirely, and saying "you're wrong 'cause all black men don't hate black women" try, just for one second to ask yourself if it's possible to consider the larger question.

I mean, dude, I'm not mad at you, I'm dissapointed because it was obvious when I wrote the post that someone would come right out with what you did.

It takes all the point out of posting when you can anticipate the responses you'll get, and be right. Maybe it's my fault for somehow failing to put things more clearly.

If I had to break-out my pertenent points, they'd go like this:

Why is there such negativity in black popular art forms towards black women?

It's surely possible to say that "gee, white men put out negative images of white women, so you're an idiot," but that's a cheap way of bypassing the point.

It is obvious that there IS a shitty "bitch" image created (was it?) and maintained by black men in black art, most obviously music. IN THAT CASE >>The case we're trying to focus on for discussion<< can we discuss possible reasons for that?

It is also provable that black women are gaining wealth faster than black men. Can we discuss if there's a possible issue between black women and men there?

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

NoSoup

Oddly enough, it did take exactly 10 minutes

Alright, before we continue - and I'm not saying that this will happen, but figure we may as well be safe about it - let's not start a war here, I'd be more than happy to share my viewpoints with you, but don't want to completely alienate all those others who would wish to join in.

Agreed, and I probably didn't type what I meant clear enough. I'm not trying to break it down to semantics, I just think that the comments that you made are quite stereotypical. I'm not trying to say that it isn't true 100% of the time, or even true 10% of the time, I'm just trying to imply that the statements you made were based on very specific examples, whereas I can think of quite a few very specific examples of the opposite.

Nonsence.

Well, there negativity can certainly be found in some art forms towards black women, but at the same time, you can find a substantial amount of the opposite as well. Granted, I don't listen to much Rap or a whole lot of other trendy music, so I may be a bit off on these, however - aren't there a substantial amount of black artists out there that idolize the female form (er... Usher?) without making color distinctions? Aren't the ladies in the music videos typically black? I don't think I have ever heard any mention of black guys having issues with black women in ANY jazz music that I have heard, which is also quite popular. Additionally, in most of the paintings I have seen that were painted by black artists, I haven't seen any negativity towards black women.

Well, I don't think it's bypassing the point at all. Some white men certainly put out negative images of white women, but I don't see a thread entitled "Do white men much like white women" out there... Although I have no facts or figures to verify this, I would imagine that there are roughly the same number of instances out there of white men belittling white women, yet noone jumps to the same conclusion you arrived at with black people. Ironically, the same logic you applied to black people can be applied to white people, but in reverse. Using the same reasons you cited above, white women shouldn't like white men because they (as a whole) tend to make more, often times are better educated, ect.


I will agree that there likely is (like I said, I don't listen to much rap) but I will argue that it is most often seen in rap music. Now, if I'm not mistaken, this is the genre that has been noted in the past for such ideas like killing police officers is good, doing drugs is spectacular, and killing people on the streets is acceptable. Should we really be using rap music as an indicator? I would imagine that the lyrics in rap music typically don't voice the popular opinion...

Well, like I said earlier, it is also provable that white men are paid higher salaries than white women for the same job - I dont' think that it necessarily implies that there is an issue there.


After all that I said, I don't want to come across as a crazy nut who believe all he hears in the media, especially pertaining to rap music. Granted, it isn't my first choice, but it isn't like I have never heard it and have been spoon-fed my opinions on it by reading the newspaper or watching the news. I don't think that it is a terrible detriment to society today, but I certainly don't believe that the lyrics are indicative of any large scale social trends, either.

__________________
I have an aura of reliability and good judgement.

Just in case you were wondering...

billege

You're a cool can of noodles in my book NoSoup!
Good discussion is awsome. And you're right, I hate it when I do get all amped up and peeps are like, "dag, I'm not posting in that mess."

Have a great night everyone, I'm off to work and stuff.

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

smooth

If you want to read an EXTREMELY respected scholar on this subject, pick this book up:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...06358?v=glance

Some of the stuff he writes doesn't necessarily agree with what you wrote, but it's a much, um, deeper analysis.

Fergie's white, btw, but you knew that right?
My wife is white, too. And she happens to really like that song...but she and I have a much different read of it.

If anything, I would say Fergie and the BEPs wrote it exactly opposite of what you interpreted. Like much of what they write, it's social commentary. Please re-listen to it, because the lyrics are actually speaking about what you're writing about here (although on a general level, rather than a racial one). The group is comprised of minorities, not jsut black people. I have to jet, but I'm actually prodded to look up just how many afro-americans are in the group--not many if any if I recall correctly.

In sum: Fergie is singing about objectification. She also hit it on the head...and it's telling that you quote her and then say: see, this is a perfect example of the objectification of women, to which she would agree wholeheartedly and prolly smile cuz you got the point.

But did you get the other point? that men, in a general sense, are pigs toward women. A lesson my wife learns every time she goes down to the club and takes some poor slep's money for a lapdance.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Redlemon

/continuation of threadjack
"Lady lumps" is the worst euphemism that I've ever heard. I hear lady lumps, I think breast cancer.
/end threadjack

This is an interesting discussion, but I have no base of knowledge to add to it.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Charlatan

Me too... though the song did make my wife and I crack up when we played it on a road trip... had our 11 year old son squirming too.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

jorgelito

Hmmmm....I think I can see what you're trying to say. I think there was a study on this dubbed "baby boy syndrome" maybe? Not too sure. But it sounds similar tp the points you were making.

Music videos are problematic in the sense that they are marketing tools and encompass a broad range of consumer products. So black females that appear in Usher videos are essentially "objects". The same applies (in a general sense to many videos - think back to all the 80's rock videos and the scantily clad feamles (mostly white chicks). This is probably more misogynisitc based rather than race based - look at the target market - teen boys maybe?

I think the social phenomonenon lies deeper than just say, music or MTV. I beleive it starts in the social fabric and goes back a few generations. Some people argue that it 's the decay of the nuclear family - many black families, especailly in urban areas are matriarchal, tiered to the 3rd generation.
EX: mother, dughter, grandmother.
Conspiciously absent father-figure types become a critical factor.
Female dominated household encounter challeneges in raising juvenile males. In the absence of male-role models, substitutes are sought out.
Strong, successful gang members, drug dealers may appear attractive to youngmales.

I think there was a statistic that the majority of black males (urban) were either in jail or dead. Otherwise unemployed.

A vicious cycle can then develop where a culture of gangs and poverty combine to foment the types of behavior conducive to agression or resentment of black females. Unemployed juveniles without direction (no perceived future prospects) may feel emasculated and feel the need to assert their manhood by "wearing the pants" in the family.

The idea of troph grilfriends - seeking out white females is interesting. I think it occurs across a swath of races and ethnicities. I think there is more of a socio-economic effect mixed in with the racial dynamic. If people desire to "move up" in the world, then they must be responsive to socail dynamics which include race relations and perceptions. The pressure to "make it" and be successful transends material wealth. Social status also comes into play. EX: The desire of successful minorities trying to move into tradional white affluent neighborhoods. Joiningg all-white country clubs etc. And even obtaining girlfriends/wives of a different race/ethnicity.

jorgelito

Black-Eyed Peas:
One white girl
One black guy
One Latino
One Asian

WillyPete

Billege, I can see your point, primarily because I'm faced with the same stimulus that seems to have triggered this from you.

As a white male, the only real insight I (we) tend have into the african male psyche is via the mainstream media and that usually happens to be black rap at the moment. You use a LOT of rap and rappers for your argument. I think you might have a little too much media generated bias in your argument, but I fully see the why and wherefore of it.

The afro-centric movies are all about black gangsters.
African sports stars only seem to share the limelight when they're winning, taking drugs or in rape cases. Not that white sportsmen don't do that, but you see less biographies of 'great black athletes' than you do of white men.
I guess you could even say the same about women, of any colour.

I'd like to see a 'Right stuff' movie about a black astronaut.
Or a Black bill Gates.

We need more heroes today to take the podium from the bad elements.
Someone wrote a good article a while ago asking where the Arab worlds' Ghandi was.
We really need some good role models today. White, black, whatever.

photophile

I think this is a really racist thread.

Marvelous Marv

You're certainly entitled to that opinion, and there's some truth to it, but I don't find it racist to ponder whether "black men much like black women" when 70% of black children are born out of wedlock. To me, that indicates that 70% of child-fathering black men don't really care to stick around the women they impregnate. (If you're wondering, the percentage is around 30 for Caucasians.)

I didn't really understand the Cosby reference.

Didn't fully connect on the lap dancing one either. Oh well.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

alansmithee

I agree. What everyone here is seeming to forget is that it's WHITE PEOPLE who are buying the majority of this music. It's WHITE PEOPLE who are fuelling this objectification through their record purchases. And I seriously doubt 50 or any other "gangsta rapper" would not call a white woman a bitch simply because of her skin. And also, what about Eminem? Is he one of those black-woman hating black men? He uses bitch and ho just as much as the darkest skinned rappers, and is more popular to boot. Or what about all those rock stars of the '80's? I'm sure their objectification of groupies was totally NOW-endorsed, right? They were enlightened troubadors in comparison to the loutish, uneducated, simian negro rappers right?

Taking pop-rap seen on MTV/BET then trying to make vast sweeping generalizations about a small segment of said viewing audience is stupid. There might have been something of merit to what the OP had to say, but it was presented so ignorantly and artlessly that all the potential for meaningfull discussion was drained. All that was presented was fairly obvious race-baiting. What next, a thread about "Why can't those black people stay away from fried chicken and watermelon"?

smooth

The lap dancing is what this song is all about: paying women while you objectify them...and the women seeking empowerment by engaging in the process.

That should be sufficient for anyone questioning the relevence.


The issue of whether black men "like" black women is reversed, according to a number of theorists. We're actually more inclined, and the data seems to be supporting, jorgelito's notion that black women aren't necessarily interested in black men, given their social and economic situation.

The history of anguish over black men and white women (the taboo, the lure, the discussion over) goes back for longer than a few generations. It's actually dug deep into our historic and racist roots.

actually, jorgelito, your post made excellent points. If you want to read up on the theory behind what you were describing (vicsious cycle of incarcerated males funneling in and out of their communities thereby breaking the social fabric), you can probably get some reading material by googling "tipping point."

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

mastertakana

billege....IT SELLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And guess what? White people are the biggest customers! Go figure.

__________________
All I know the time it is gettin dread
Need alot of trees up in my head

Rodney

As a Caucasian gentleman who dated a couple of African American women and worked in an office for a long time that was about 50 percent African American, I can say this (and this is all so long ago that it's pre-hiphop, pre-rap, pre- everything but funk) --

* Some black men treat their black girlfriends like sh*t.
* Some black women put up with it. Some don't.
* Most black men who treat their women like sh*t (and most black women who put up with it) come from a working-class or lower background (even if they're doing better now), and aren't especially well educated.
* Middle class, better-educated black men are sometimes somewhat authoritarian towards their girlfriends and wives, but generally treat them respectfully.
* Substitute "white" for "black" in the above statements, and they are all still substantially true.

martinguerre

'cause it's tasty?

seriously...it's a sad and fascinating question that our society is more likely to imply that black men are ungrateful for their women, than to analyze all the intentionally emasculating practices of racism.

smooth and alan win points for most reasoned response to a thread idea that really didn't inspire such a dignified reaction.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

billege

Let’s just say I disagree with, and resent, at least some of what you’ve offered.
I’m going to say that:

Not one line of my post is designed to bait anyone.
I know this, because at no point was that remotely my intention.

I resent like hell you decided to place the racist label on me.
I’m also confident that I treat anyone I run into with equal respect and consideration.
I detest bigotry in all it’s forms; you have no idea how wrong you are.


I don’t think it’s wrong to ask a question based on observable facts. I never tried to apply the question to overwhelmingly large sections of a population, because that’s outside the scope of the question, and does not apply. You can’t take what I’m asking about a sub-segment of a population, and apply it to the whole group. I didn’t do that. Nor did I say that any other group being misogynist was somehow okay. If I was examining why rock stars in the 80’s were displaying such negativity towards women, I’d put forward different reasons for that behavior, don’t you think? I bet if I *had* postulated that white men in hair bands objectified women because they were angry about women’s financial power, no one would call “racist.”


I think that being poor is the worst thing you can be in America, by America’s standards. I really think American culture believes poverty to be the worst thing anyone can be, the worst sin in our culture is to have no money.

I also think that America still hasn’t made nearly as much racial progress as we think we have, and on top of that, white people don’t want to hear it. The hardest thing in America is to be poor, and of color.
American’s have a hard time acknowledging that we have cities like Detroit, where a good 70% of the population in the city limits is black, and overwhelmingly poor. Or like what was New Orleans, where the numbers were only slightly less astonishing. American culture has no major voices screaming about the situations in our own yard. The hundreds of thousands of children growing up in poverty. They go to cheap, poorly funded schools, and repeat an awful cycle of poverty. Where’s the public outcry about that? White America turned its back on that, and moved out. That’s a fact, and it is pretty sad.

My point being that we’ve made precious little progress since the last major movements in the 60’s. We do *not* want to hear about that though.

One of the questions on my mind, and the impetus of my post, was “Do I see all the negative images of Black women in Black men’s art because of intracultural anger/jealousy?”

From what I’m reading in the responses, it’s far more likely that the causes are more general sexism than my postulate. I think there’s some strong reasoning to support that, in fact.

I will take a relisten to BEP’s song, and consider the lyrics through the lens suggested. My initial disgust at the lyrical content likely did prevent me from considering it for what it is. I appreciate the heads up on that. Does most of the BEP’s music contain commentary of this type? Yeah, I did know Fergie is white.

Thanks also for the book link, I will check that out. I expect it will be deeper. Especially considering I didn’t write a book, I asked a question based on some thoughts I had after watching some TV and listening to the radio the past couple days.

I guess one of the things I’m taking from this here is my lack of exposure to what Black culture does value, vs. what it appears to value in popular media. Media is not the best spoksmedia for any culture, but it can provoke questions. In addition to the one I asked, another one has been prompted through this discussion.

It’s been put forth by some posters in this thread, that white people are the biggest purchasing audience for Black musical art, specifically of the negative type under discussion. That begs the question: Why do white people like such images and concepts so much? Now *that* is an interesting question.

There are no Black TV shows anymore. Well, there’s basically no Black TV shows on that don’t continue some really shitty stereotypes. The shows are bad enough to prompt commentary and parody on the role’s black people play on TV and in movies. Not that *most* “white” shows don’t do the same with white stereotypes, but there are always a few shows out there that take an honest look at a population segment. Where are those shows?

Rosanne took a hard look at working poor/almost poor white people.
The Cosby Show showed a successful black American family.
There’s also nothing like A Different World on TV; no shows about Black people in college on TV these days. There’s nothing out there showing what I’m sure is a multifaceted culture, which I obviously aren’t exposed to very much. So why not?


Bill Cosby said what he thought were the reasons for his people’s failure, by his measures, to succeed. The man got shouted down pretty hard. No one wanted to hear what he’s saying. I don’t know what Black culture really is, as there’s what you see on TV, and there’s reality. I don’t know what the reality is, as I’m a white guy who lives in the ‘burbs of Ohio. It’s not a hotbed of cultural diversity here, although I have met some really neat Somalian people here. Did you know that Columbus has the largest population in America, of Somali refugees? It does, but that’s a random thought for today.

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

tspikes51

Errr... I'll probably get banned for saying it, but as far as interracial couples go, it seems to me that 9/10 are white woman and black man. I don't know what to make of that, but I do know that I only know a handful of black women that I find attractive. Take what you will out of that.

__________________
"I'm telling you, we need to get rid of a few people or a million."
-Maddox

billege

So you're saying:

In the admittedly casual observations you've made, you notice far more white women with black men, as opposed to couples composed of white men with black women. Further, you wonder what if it's even a true observation, and if so, what forces come together to make that happen?

Here is a link to a 16 page study on "Marital quality of African American and white partners in interracial couples." I just finished reading it. One thing I took away from it is that interacial marriage is different for those in them, than couples from the same racial background.

If it means anything, the sample in the study were: "52 African American male/White female and 24 African American female/White male"

As to whom you find attractive, that's your personal preferance. Nothing more or less.

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

jujueye

As soon as our culture begins believing that current music artists are the pinnacle of social behavior and leaders to our coomunities, we're doomed. I would never, and I do mean NEVER, take advice from fiddycent, Kanye, or any of the Peas. I congratulate those who do work their way into our days, people like the trash talkin rappers, people like eminem, because they beat the system. But I would never admire them for their music, what they say, or how they show themselves. They never grow past a pedantic way of life and act like adults.

Most jazz artists would give up an internal organ to have the money and fame that rappers do, and in the end show more class and dignity than anybody currently on the music scene who is in any way involved with rap, hip-hop or pop music. I suppose that is because they are there for the music, while today's pop stars honestly appear to be there for a few quick millions before their musical stylings are swallowed up and spit out by the giant record companies.

I would just wish that some of these so-called "stars" would come up with some better ideas to write about. Bitches, f*cking, killing and money not only get old to hear about, they lead our youth to believe that it is a fantastic way to live.

I'll be watching this thread. This is something that really gets my blood boiling. Thanks for posting the ideas billege. I'm sure I've delved far too much in one direction and am maybe a bit off course, but I hear ya. I hear ya.

Rodney

And I've observed somewhat the opposite -- mostly black women with white men; but we probably live in different places with different social dynamics. So it's not safe for either of us to generalize country-wide.

alansmithee

As for your post not being race bait, and decrying the racist label, hating bigotry, etc. I can't say one way or the other. But I usually base things like that more on actions that would show racism rather than statements against it.


The problem comes when your "observable facts" consist of marketing you casually saw on MTV, and not actual real-life situations. You could've asked/thought instead why does such misogynistic music get airtime, but instead choose to think that because some of the performers are black, that rap-pop on MTV somehow represents black culture as a whole (ignoring the fact that you totally missed the point of the song which you say started this train of though).


I agree with all this, however these were not the sentiments of your original post. This seems little more than backpedalling. Your initial post was about why the black savages hate the far superior black women.

Again, because you see a black person performing, you assume it's "Black" art. That is a faulty assumption. You want to decry racism, but you are hung up on the skin color of some (admitteldy the majority) of the performers.

This is a much better question, but yet you still focus on gansta rap being some sort of "Black" art. A more reasonable approach would be to understand that because gangsta rap is what sells, more performers would turn their music in that direction to make money, and not assume it's a natural cultural expression. But to do that, you would have to attribute at least a little understanding of economics to blacks, which obviously doesn't fit into your scenario of blacks having "no education, no real societal power".

The shows you mention were exceptions. The Cosby show wasn't popular because it showed a prosperous black family, it was popular because of Bill Cosby, who had managed to overcome his race. And A Different World was popular because it's lead-in was the Cosby Show, which it was a spinoff of. And I also don't see many shows that take "honest" looks at the population segment. The closest I can think of is Everybody Loves Raymond, which just went off the air (and had it's share of implausibility). And there has been no similar show to Roseanne since it went off the air, either. And all those shows had one thing in common-extremely popular comedians as leads, who pretty much serialized their acts for television.


If you yourself claim not to know about the reality of black culture, how do you think you can make sweeping claims about that culture? Especially when what little info you have comes from nothing but television and music.

smooth

I want to make clear that I in no way shape or form meant to dig you for your comments. I thought they were interesting and raised good points: points that have been raised by scholars, black or otherwise.

Alansmith's comments just rolled into my inbox, and I must say I agree with your assessment over his.

The reason I stated out that Cornel West provided a deeper analyses isn't because I thought yours was shallow in a negative sense--both your and my post scratches at the surface of a very complex issue that can't really be done justice in a quick posting. Maybe I could pull it off the shelf and give a try, but basically I think you would find that text stimulating and enlightening. It would definately shed light on what you are perceiving among other things you haven't raised here.

I could say that I meant his book will give a deeper analysis than I am going to provide. My comment wasn't intended to make you feel like you offered up some crappy commentary. West is a very influencial figure in race relations literature. Partly because he's intelligent but also because, to be blunt about it, he's a black man at Princeton. The two are related, but also congeal into a very powerful messenger.

Omi and Winant are considered the pinnacle of race relations studies. Just do like this 'omi and winant' on google and you will get good hits (Michael Omi and Howard Winant, btw). Cornel West took a lot of flak for writing that book I pointed you to because he wrote it as a non-academic piece.


One thing I would like to point out to you is the notion of multiple marginality. Because you have begun to shift your perspective from racial to gender. But I want you to know that the two are not mutually exclusive. The idea is that marginal groups can have multiple levels of marginalization. Watch how this plays out:

1) a homosexual, white male >> marginalized due to sexuality
2) a homosexual, black male >> marginalized due to sexuality, compounded by racism
3) a homosexual, black woman >> marginalized due to sexuality, compounded by racism, compounded by gender relations

so we would notice that the 3rd individual experiences the most discrimination and feels the most assaulted by the status quo: in regards to her sexuality, her race, her gender (she might be, for example, face discrimination from black males, straight non-white males, straight females, homosexual non-black males, homosexual non-black females, & etc.)


The BEPs music, in my opinion, holds some substantial social commentary within it. They also strive and achieve good dance music, but they manage to lace stimulating lyrics in some of it. I attribute this to the fact that they are all minorities (and I still have to check whether their black member is afro-american; I haven't yet).

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martinguerre

Tough cookies. Which one of us *isn't* racist? I think i try pretty damn hard, but the culture i'm soaking in is deeply divided and racialized. My culture, academic training puts me with more and more white folks, more and more economic advantage, and then asks me why i'm all alone with a bunch of people who look just like me. Gender relations in African American communities...are a worth question, and have deeply problematic issues of gender in racial idenities and conflicts. But to ask *any* question about black cultures without substantial reference to the formative pressure of racialized culture? All I saw in your original post was a bunch of stereotypes thrown together.

PS. It's "Somali" not "Somalian" And there's raging debate as to if they are "black" in the American social construction of the term.

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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16